I'd say he was a 16th level Oracle.
The God of the AT is most often LG, but sometimes can break His own laws... sometimes He can be NG or even CG, sending His oracles to preach against the established church!^^
I'd say that if a god relies most heavily on Oracles rather than Clerics or Priests (as He has undoubtedly done in all Israel history), He must be expected to be most diversely interpreted by His servants... Some see him as LN, some as CG etc. etc.^^
But by the way, maybe I made a mistake... Moses wasn't lame, was he? That was Jacob. So Oracle of Lore 20, Seer archetype, Babble curse and a big heavy Staff of Miracles...
Moses would definitely correspond to a cleric or an oracle, as the cleric spell list from the earliest versions of the game has always had a biblical basis. To figure out his level, I would start with the 9th level cleric spells and work backwards until I found one that corresponds to something that the Bible describes as having been done by or through Moses. I think Fire Storm (level 8) may qualify (deaths of Korah and followers) -- Insect Plage (level 6) definitely does (plague of locusts).
"And Moses said to the LORD, I beseech thee, O my LORD, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore nor since thou hast spoken to thy servant; for I am a stutterer and slow of speech."
Speech impediment - must be some variant Oracle's curse.
Oracle, I'd say.
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Oracle really doesn't fit at all. Mechanically or thematically. Moses was a spokesperson for a deity, which is pure Cleric. Paladin I can see, but I wouldn't be tempted that way. Clerics are better battle-leaders anyway.
Also, keep in mind that one of Moses defining attributes was that he was not charasmatic, was not a leader, was not socially talented. Mechanically, that means a completelyly spell/powerless oracle and a fairly weak Paladin all in all.
I could see an argument for something along the lines of a Mystic Thuerge, (establish the laws, lead the people, judge, etc. . .) so probably had some Int and Wis. Survived in the desret after living as royalty, then became a shepherd, so probably a little Con, too.
Not sure what class he was, but we can rule out Druid.
Any self-respecting Druid would have ranks in Survival.
Moses clearly didn't have any ranks in Survival.40 years.
It's impossible to get lost in that desert for 40 years.
Moses did it on purpose! Clearly he had levels in Bard to keep those people following him for so long.
...seriously, people?
Don't make me go home and fire up Testament.
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Why not Zoidberg?
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Human male Lev7/Prf10/Pal3: CR 20; Medium-size humanoid; HD 7d6+10d8+3d10+60; hp 158; Init +1; Speed 30 ft.; AC 17 (+19 vs. demon-possessed, exiles from Israel, and Philistine giants) (touch 17, fl at-footed 16); Atk +17/+12/+7 melee (1d6+2, quarterstaff ); SA Smite evil (+4 attack, +3 damage) 1/day, spells; SQ Arcane spell resistance (SR 22—10 from prophet levels), consecrate ground, craft phylacteries of power, aura of courage, damage reduction 5/+1, defensive vision (+ 6 AC), detect evil, dispel possession, divine grace, divine health, improved divination, improved dream, improved sanctuary, know sin level, lay on hands (12 hp), permissible resurrection, remove disease 1/week, spell resistance (20 vs. divination spells), turn demon-possessed 7/day, turn undead 7/day as 1st-level cleric; SV Fort + 17, Ref +7, Will +20; AL LG; Str 14, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 22, Cha 18
Flaw: Wrathful
Languages: Egyptian, Hebrew, Ugaritic
Skills and Feats: Concentrate +19*, Craft (leatherworking) +24, Craft (carpentry) +9, Diplomacy +24, Handle Animal +10, Heal +29, Hide +6, Intimidate +21*, Knowledge (dreams) +17 (+19 portents), Knowledge (religion) +18*, Knowledge (royalty) +8, Listen +11, Move Silently +6, Profession (herdsman) +15, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +10, Spot +7; Consecrated Spell, Divine Armor, Divine Grace, Dreamer, Iron Will, Leadership, Receive Blessings, Staff Spell, Tongue of Curses
*Includes bonuses from phylactery of power
Levite Spells: (9/7+1/6+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1; saves are DC 17 + spell level).
Domains: Law (law spells cast at +1 caster level) Protection (protective ward 1 hr/day 1/day)
Possessions: quarterstaff , phylactery of power
There you go.
There is a Testament D20 supplement out there, I think Green Ronin did it. Paizo had it in their sale section for a while. I think he is in there.
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I'm surprised that people mention Paladin,when the OT God is clearly NOT LG... I'd give him LN, the very definition, even 'Worship me or Else...'That’s a matter of interpretation. The God of the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) has always been portrayed as a God of both Law AND Good. But this is not the Off Topic part of the forum so that is all I'm going to say on the matter...
TBH you can make a strong argument that the OT god is a war god..without dragging out my TOTALLY unused bible didn't God/Yhwh actaully intruct some of his chosen/prophets to kill those who chose not to convert?? based on sketchy memory on Canaan and Jericho...
A minor illusion cast by a 3rd level gnome illusionist because...well...he didn't exist, now did he?
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Oracle really doesn't fit at all. Mechanically or thematically. Moses was a spokesperson for a deity, which is pure Cleric. Paladin I can see, but I wouldn't be tempted that way. Clerics are better battle-leaders anyway.
Also, keep in mind that one of Moses defining attributes was that he was not charasmatic, was not a leader, was not socially talented. Mechanically, that means a completelyly spell/powerless oracle and a fairly weak Paladin all in all.
Oracle=Someone who talks with God i.e. Joan of Arc, Francis of Assisi, most biblical prophets. IRL I would say Moses was a bit of a Shaman. The Mt. Sinai experience is a lot like a vision quest.
Cleric= Someone who claims to speak for God and usually speaks for an institution (i.e. Catholic Church, Egyptian and Hebrew priesthoods) which may or may not actually represent the god. You'll have to ask Diety in question whether they actually do this or are more in tune with the powers that be.
As for whether Moses was charismatic, even if he studdered, he seemed to have a 'presence'. In history there are a lot of examples of 'studdering prophets' and what makes their words compelling because people have to pay attention. He also adapted to three seperate societies (Egyptian, Midian, Hebrew). He did, in the end, become a leader.
No, he wasn't life of the party, but he did seem to figure it out enough for him to function.
In Testament, Moses is listed as a 3rd-level paladin/7th level Levite priest/10th-level prophet of the Lord.
I think that was a 3.0 supplement though.
Staff magus.
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I vote gunslinger with ranks in stone crafting.
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I'm surprised that people mention Paladin,when the OT God is clearly NOT LG... I'd give him LN, the very definition, even 'Worship me or Else...'
Eh... no. You're confusing Law (and it's natural attendant strictures and enforced repercussions) with morality in general. Lawful Neutral doesn't even fit the definition of "worship me or else" - look at Abadar or Aroden as a perfect examples of this. Also, this view is born of the D&D conceit that morality is defined separately from High Divinity (what the Hebrew God claims to be).
The Biblical presentation has it that the God of the Hebrews was the only non-evil divinity that existed - that all others were, in fact, evil - and was not only good, but the source of all goodness - Good was not possible without Him. In much the same way as it's generally justified for a paladin to go around smiting the devotees of evil deities - even entire societies - it was the acceptable thing because all other deities worshiped were evil by default. Further, there was never really an "or else" clause, except to those that actually worshiped Him already (most others were left alone unless they specifically went against Him or His chosen people). You may certainly debate the morality of specifics based off of other moral creeds, but given its own code of ethics and morality as-presented, it's pretty clear that it's a Lawful and Good deity demanding lawful and good things.
Further:
* as far as origins go, God showed up to Abraham and said "Hey, here's the deal, follow me and I'll bless you." and then he did and He did.
* when the family was later betrayed by a paranoid Pharaoh who enslaved them and their descendents for a while, He showed up in response to their prayers, freed them (again by smiting those who worshiped evil deities) and gave them a deal: 1) Follow Me, 2) Or Else, 3) Or Go Elsewhere. The latter was a very real option, just not accepted (everyone wanted to claim a part of/blessings from the Big-Scary-Shiny-Thing-That-Is-Obviously-God-Manifest).
* when punishing the inhabitants of Canaan, it calls them out as worshiping evil things, ergo deserving of smiting
* when the Israelis didn't go through with the smiting-as-ordered the negative consequences were exactly as predicted i.e. they fell away from the only good deity and into worship of evil deities, ergo opened themselves up to smiting later
But really, all this is an aside. Point being the morality of the Old Testament God doesn't mesh with your view of what morality should be, and that's an understandable position to take.
I'd suggest, similarly to some others, that Moses might be an Aristocrat with the flaw (Stutter), who perhaps became a Ranger (perhaps with some tactician-style archetype not yet seen) during his wanderings as a shepherd, and perhaps picked up a level or two of inquisitor or oracle. I'd tend to think inquisitor, but I can certainly see Oracle as a debatable point.
As others have said, the staff was very blessed, and many things were basically God telling Moses "tell him to do X for Y or else Z" and then the party he speaks to not doing X, so Z happens and everyone wonders why they never got their desired Y result.
Very rarely was it Moses himself doing anything - the staff to a big snake, the parting of the waters, the holding his staff to turn the tide of battle, striking (or theoretically speaking to) a rock to get water, or building the snake were all his work... but each of them were directly in response to being told "Do this" and he did more than him saying "hey, can I do this?" and being allowed.
But, again, as has been mentioned, most miraculous things just kind of happened around him whether he was into it or not. In fact, just as often he totally would have preferred for it to never have occurred and begged off a few disasters that would have otherwise happened if not for his prayers. If anything, in game terms, its more often like he either chose to (or chose not to or failed to) counter-spell things God was doing than him actually working miracles himself.
Man, heh, that's a lot of people who've pointed out the exact same thing about his level spread in Testament.
I vote gunslinger with ranks in stone crafting.
Two-weapon fighting ranger. His companion was a snake with ranks in stealth.
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Oracle=Someone who talks with God i.e. Joan of Arc, Francis of Assisi, most biblical prophets. IRL I would say Moses was a bit of a Shaman. The Mt. Sinai experience is a lot like a vision quest.
Cleric= Someone who claims to speak for God and usually speaks for an institution (i.e. Catholic Church, Egyptian and Hebrew priesthoods) which may or may not actually represent the god.
Are you talking about the RL Cleric (meaning "priest" instead?) and Oracle (nothing to do with prophets or prophecy) or the classes? I would say, wither way you still have it backwards, but to different degrees depending on what you mean.
PRD says this about Cleric: Called to serve powers beyond most mortal understanding, all priests preach wonders and provide for the spiritual needs of their people. Clerics are more than mere priests, though; these emissaries of the divine work the will of their deities through strength of arms and the magic of their gods.
PRD says this about Oracle: Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs
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Sorry, got cut off before I could finish that idea. . .
Moses seems the exact opposite of the Oracle. He is in direct contact with, is an emissary for, and becomes the spiritual leader if a group. He isn't someone that is chosen to b e born with some special gift that is powered by many sources, and doesn't follow or embody a Oracle's mystery.
Beckett,
What you say stylistically is true, but functionally Moses seemed far more often like an oracle or (even better, in my mind) an inquisitor than a cleric (he never once channeled energy, or anything similar for example).
Biblically, he was what is called a "prophet", i.e. someone that speaks (and sometimes writes) with and for their deity. He himself was rarely the worker of miracles, more like the guy that just kind of let people know what God was going to do. Aaron indeed often "did" more miracles than Moses ever did, and did more of the speaking. That's one reason the people listened to him when he later led his rebellion against his brother: because he was the big-time miracle worker. I would have no problem calling Aaron a cleric - he was head of the priests, after all.
One big argument for both Moses and Aaron to be clerics was the fact that whatever miracle they were going to do, it was told them significantly in advance. This is much like preparing spells. They'd just have to have a hecka high caster level to accomplish anything near the nature of what they did.
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Sorry, got cut off before I could finish that idea. . .
Moses seems the exact opposite of the Oracle. He is in direct contact with, is an emissary for, and becomes the spiritual leader if a group. He isn't someone that is chosen to b e born with some special gift that is powered by many sources, and doesn't follow or embody a Oracle's mystery.
I went with effective function in game and in real life rather than the literal descriptions in the rules (which I didn't look up when righting originally). In most games, the clerics are the ones manning the temples. In RL they are, effectively, manning Vatican, or the temple priests of Jesus' day or the priests working in the temple of the Egyptian Gods for that matter.
As for the many sources, in game we are mostly playing with a polythestic worldview, and discarding that, Moses' story more resembles that of an Oracle, with an encounter with the divine, being given a mission and accepting it. In real life they are mystics (not in the new agey sense) but the ones who have a direct encouter with the divine and whose life is changed because of that.
The origin story of internal conflict, fleeing into the desert, encountering the divine and returning transformed and and empowered (maybe not directly if it doesn't fit your theology, but you get the point) is more likely that of an Oracle rather than someone who has gone to seminary.
I had a character idea for a Council of Thieves game that never got off the ground modeled on [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM5A4ETW_Io]Sophie Scholl[/url]. The RL person she was based on is a devout Christian. In PF, she is an Oracle that primarilly communes with Milani and sometimes Sheyln and Iomedae. In the setting she deals with many gods. But it is only because of the setting.
Way I see it, clerics choose to serve a god, while oracles ARE chosen, like it or not. And many Israelite prophets were chosen even by force, trying in some cases to rebel to their destiny- unsuccessfully.
Moses fled from Egypt, took a wife, became a herder and was chosen by God- he tried to decline, but couldn't. This sounds much like oracle to me.
I agree on the LG-ness of the AT God, adding the considerations I already made above.
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I'm surprised that people mention Paladin,when the OT God is clearly NOT LG... I'd give him LN, the very definition, even 'Worship me or Else...'
Not really - Old D&D Single Alignment category - Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic: Paladin is Lawful - that's a big range of possibility. It isn't always: laws are for every one, lets take a vote on what those laws are; Its about: My laws, do as you are told or die.
high level anti-paladin.
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He lived with and married the daughter of the priest of midian, established the first church for his people, and sat as the high priest and judge.
He also spent the first half of his life as a bit of an outsider in both Egyptian and Hebrew circles, for example, he never married until he left Egypt at age 40. He had a studder which limited his social life. He seem to have had minimal standing for his adopted social class. He probably spent a lot of time depressed, and was a wanted murderer.
Then he was able to start over among the Middians. His skills were welcome and he was able to build a place for himself, perhaps after he had given up any hope of a place for himself.
Then he had an encounter with God while chasing a sheep; a life changing
experience.
He was basically a person with many unsettled questions (which is why he's one of my favorite biblical people) before he was any of what you describe.
If a game were to be set in Hebrew times/lands, I'd say that a cleric/priest/other of God should choose his domains freely, as if worshiping a personal philosophy. And no chosen weapon. This is the best way to handle an all-encompassing god.
chosen weapon was staff.
Also, way to stay on topic.
Moses was a gunslinger. ;-)
Double barreled miracle coming at ya! BLAM!
In response to all the hypersensitive responses regarding religion, go read the Cleric spell list, and ask yourself where the ideas for those spells came from.
Control Water (split the sea)
Insect Plague
Create Food and Water ("mana from heaven")
Moses was a Cleric or Oracle.
I removed some posts that threatened to drag this thread into a religious flamewar.
Yeah, but what was Onan?
Ross, apologies for any of my part in it.
EDIT: And it's totally too bad you couldn't just edit my post instead, because I really liked some of the points I made and would have loved for them to stay. But alas, such is life!