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I'm currently running a Kingmaker campaign. I have a player who's taken the Leadership feat to design an item crafter. In 3.5 this would have been balanced against the XP cost of making the items, but now he can make as much as the party can afford. Plus, with Kingmaker, time is no obstacle. My concern is that the cohort is never brought out to adventure. He's never in any danger, and is merely sitting at home, churning out half-price items. (At present the players are all still within their gp per level, but for how long).
The Leadership feat is not explicit about in what circumstances cohorts earn XP, or whether they simply gain a XP as their leader gains theirs. It only says they earn scaled XP, rated off the levels.
So should I simply award the cohort the scaled XP based off his leader, or should I require that he actually engage in actual adventuring/exploring? I'm leaning towards the latter, since it slows down the gp per level inflation. Any thoughts?
Well the other thing to do is not give them the same amount of treasure as you normally would. Crafting can increase your wealth a bit, but it really shouldn't double it. Maybe you should start doing more item drops instead of gold or other saleable items (gems, etc). If they want to sell them they get 1/2 price, which is precisely what they spend to enchant something!
In this thread, you will see people saying that you are a horrible GM for even considering this. Don't listen to them.
Due to having the city, at level 7 they'll have at least a score of 9.
He already will have Craft Wondrous and Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Slowing down his leveling won't actually do much. Making +8 monocles of spellcraft is really cheap, and that is essentially 8 levels. And RAW, you can take 10 on Spellcraft checks to make items.
I believe, due to this line:
A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total.
that they have to be with their leader to gain XP. If someone is 50 miles away from the rest of the party, they probably won't be getting XP. Same deal with a cohort.
Just recommend to him that he buys a wagon or something for him to craft while adventuring, then he can cast some spells or something to help in combat. And you can burn the wagon down every now and then :D
The issue is actually Kingmaker, my players have been routinely attempting to abuse the treasury for purchases that would never fit their WBL. They have wizards towers in every settlement.
I actually like what your player has done.
I would slow down the cohort's leveling a bit (around lvl12) at the end of the campaign, this AP will likely hit lvl 20 before we are done.
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Thanks all.
I think it fits my sense of verisimilitude that the cohort be there to actually gain "heroic" XP, although I can see that he could still be earning "non-heroic" (NPC) style XP just by practicing his craft at home. I expect my player to argue the latter. But ultimately the cohort's a wizard (a heroic class), not an expert, so I think it's reasonable to expect he earn heroic XP.
And yes, reducing wealth via found treasure will be essential, thanks for the reminder. I hate having to regularly take inventory, but such is the burden of a GM!
Doesn't matter. The cohort is completely loyal to him.
You can solve the issue by just not allowing it, and asking what they want. Add the items they want to look.
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i'll admit im not 100% up to speed with leadership or kingmaker, but it seems to me that as an NPC it was the DM's job to create this cohort. it sounds like you let the PC choose exactly what he wanted, down to the last feat.
but surely this wizard has his own goals and agenda also - and a hero class he wants to advance. hes not an extension of the PCs character sheet, but a discrete individual under YOUR control.
I guess I'm not so much worried about him crafting what they want or the wealth by level; that's manageable, since I still control how much gold they ultimately get. And philosophically, I don't mind that the player designs his own cohort; it fits his character concept and I do still have control over him as an NPC.
I did like Lightbulb's point that either way it's effectively trading one benefit of a cohort (spells cast in combat) for another form of magic that can be similarly used. So I'm leaning towards just letting his cohort level as normal, and just managing the WBL.
But still, what I'm curious about is whether the cohort should/would gain XP when not adventuring actively with them. It's as much a mental exercise as anything. To take it to an extreme, if a cohort were in stasis while his leader was out adventuring, would he come out of stasis with more XP? If not, then why would the stay-at-home crafter? What's he done to earn XP? Simply honing his craft, like the 3rd-level expert baker?
The Leadership feat is a bombshell of a feat in the first place, hardly "balanced" next to most other feats.
Honestly, considering you can craft on the road anyways, purposefully keeping your cohort out of combat effectively diminishes the potential power and therefore abuse that this feat can give.
I'd be disinclined to make this option less appealing.
Regarding your exact questions...
Stasis, I'd say no experience was gained as there's no memories or anything going on. As far as I'm willing to bend my verisimilitude, it'd be way to gamist to me to have them suddenly jump up in levels without at least a "montage of learning".
You did touch on my own stance of things though: if the character is a crafter, and all he does is crafting, and the fruit of his experience gains are put towards crafting advancement, then it's not too big a push to accept that his crafting and day-to-day activities gave him his experience.
There's more ways to gain experience than combat. Especially in Kingmaker, you can gain experience from straight up exploration and kingdom building.
In my own experience, my PC (who's the Baron of their kingdom) brought a wife into the game (for a second leadership role) through the Leadership feat. She stays at home while I adventure, making sure there's a leader granting a bonus even though I might spend too long afield.
She's a Celebrity archetyped Bard, who is built for social interactions, and crafting magical items. Most of her time is spent: Governing the Kingdom, interacting with other kingdoms, planning/expanding our territory, keeping tabs on us (via spells), and assuaging the populace of their concerns about most of their leaders off gallivanting or the odd expenditures we've made.
Oh, and probably setting up (and starring) in a number of theatrical events.
If this were a different campaign other than Kingmaker, I'd be surprised if a character that was doing all that didn't get experience on a consistent basis.
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Honestly, if the cohort is taking up a governing position alongside his crafting, I can't see why he wouldn't be gaining at least enough experience to keep up with leveling. Quite frankly, under the current method of meting out experience to the cohort, the minimum enforced level differences make it so the cohort would have gained his level much sooner had the cap not been in place.
Even at a reduced rate, they'd still keep up in levels anyways.
If you are okay with a second character being added to the game already, then I don't think this should be an issue, and there's plenty of reasons to grant experience in Kingmaker.
...I believe, due to this line:
A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total.that they have to be with their leader to gain XP. If someone is 50 miles away from the rest of the party, they probably won't be getting XP. Same deal with a cohort...
I can see arguments for both sides, but I would use this. If all he is doing is crafting, he only gets xps like any other NPC craftsman. It would be a more than an average carpenter, after all he is making extrememly valuable items that are supposedly very exacting in their requirements. But maybe not much more than really skilled jeweler or famous painter. Maybe enough for a level every couple of years.
As Lightbulb suggested, I'd probably have him kidnapped at least once.
... so it has been a punishment in my games to have someone my character cares about, so don't do that...
I would not intend it as a punishment and I hope the player would not take it that way. But it has been my experience that in a 'sandbox' type campaign it is sometimes very difficult to PC's to do much of anything together that can be termed an adventure. This would give a good launch point that would get everyone heading in the same direction again.
However, I will consider your concern about 'punishment' and think about how I can minimize that potential.
... but if your cohort is well guarded, you can maybe have it be an attempted kidnapping or something where the attacker is repelled but you get the message that there's something going on...
Ha. The group I'm currently with, I give them a 1 in 3 chance that they would even think of guarding the cohort left behind. And if they did think about they would just say some of the followers can guard him and would probably not actually set up anything. However, that is a good idea. Should they happen to set up an effective guard, a failed attempt could work almost as well.
... if you do wanna kidnap the cohort, I ... would have him/her rather easy to get back...
Definitely.
i'll admit im not 100% up to speed with leadership or kingmaker, but it seems to me that as an NPC it was the DM's job to create this cohort. it sounds like you let the PC choose exactly what he wanted, down to the last feat.
but surely this wizard has his own goals and agenda also - and a hero class he wants to advance. hes not an extension of the PCs character sheet, but a discrete individual under YOUR control.
I guess I'm not so much worried about him crafting what they want or the wealth by level; that's manageable, since I still control how much gold they ultimately get. And philosophically, I don't mind that the player designs his own cohort; it fits his character concept and I do still have control over him as an NPC.
I did like Lightbulb's point that either way it's effectively trading one benefit of a cohort (spells cast in combat) for another form of magic that can be similarly used. So I'm leaning towards just letting his cohort level as normal, and just managing the WBL.
But still, what I'm curious about is whether the cohort should/would gain XP when not adventuring actively with them. It's as much a mental exercise as anything. To take it to an extreme, if a cohort were in stasis while his leader was out adventuring, would he come out of stasis with more XP? If not, then why would the stay-at-home crafter? What's he done to earn XP? Simply honing his craft, like the 3rd-level expert baker?
Well the amount of skill to craft a magical item is much greater than that used to craft a loaf of bread. Even the greatest expert artisans are still creating mundane objects that don't require them to warp reality based on their will alone. I vote full XPs.
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Here is the problem I forsee with limiting the cohorts xp. Eventually, said cohort will fall so far behind the party that he/she will no longer be effective for the purposes intended. What will happen at that point is the same thing that happens to anything that becomes under powered by the player's point of view. They will trade up. Unless their charisma score is miserable, the new cohort will come in just around 2 levels under the players current level. And they will have nice ways of doing it. "Sir Anglemere, your services have been greatly appreciated by the Kingdome of Blahblahblah. We offer you the title of nobility, some land, and ask for you continued support to the kingdom, but I personally no longer require your services. Thank you for your efforts."
Ofcourse, they also have some, not so nice ways to handle it. "Sir Anglemere, I realize after all this time your services have been under-utilized, I'd request respectfully that your journey with us to the mouth of the dragon's lair to combat the foul beast besetting our lands". And in all likly hood, Mr underlevel cohort will by the big one from some encounter ON THE WAY to the dragon, if not by the dragon itself. Ofcourse, assination events due occur, so they may be a target that way as well. The penalty for a dead cohort is severly lessend by 3 factors in Kingmaker, party level, character's charisma score, and the other addition bonuses allowed to the character's leadership score. I believe owning a place of operation gives you a +2 bonus to your leadership score as well.
Truthfully, your best method of handling this is to limit wealth aquisition IN the adventure itself. Usually, looting treasure from the corpse of dead foes and forgotten tombs is the only way for an adventurer to aquire wealth. Kingmaker alleviates this with multiple wealth obtaining options. Have your characters own and run businesses between adventures. Have them make profession checks or craft check with modifiers appropriate to their businesses and have them earn most of there funds that way. If they want to use item crafting as a means of aquiring wealth, have them make profession Merchant check with DC coinciding with the DCs provided during the Economic Phase for minor, medium and major magic items. Limit one per item per month.
The end result is that you will have players that will try a little harder to work with the Kingmaking portion of the campaign with out feeling jipped about there cohort or other process due to a deviation from the RAW.
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Just rule that for non-adventuring cohorts, earning the XP to raise their level takes time (in a Wizard's case, he is spending his days and nights poring over dusty tomes and making strange experiments). Obviously, this time is not available to craft magic items.
Finding the dusty tomes needed by the cohort to level up can be an adventure in itself, as can dealing with the unexpected consequences of the cohort's experimentation.
You can rule that having the gp required for crafting a magic item is not enough : you actually have to spend it in game to buy the rare materials and tools needed for the crafting.
Finally, if your players are becoming a bit too powerful, it is likely that their enemies/rivals/neighbours (or even their patrons) feel threatened and try to curtail their growing might.
If the PCs do not spend time and money devising efficient protections for their assets (which include the cohort), they deserve to lose them. In other words, if there is only a peasant-turned-guard to protect the cohort, kill them both.
You can even have the players roleplay the scene. They play the cohort and the followers/bystanders while you play the elite hit team sent to assassinate him. And if the players win, they get to keep the cohort, but they also have to deal with emboldened followers who might want some rewards and/or wish to go on adventure with the main PCs. Obviously, the cohort will be screaming for a proper protection for himself and his beloved dusty tomes.
Because there will be a next time.
The cohort might also catch a disease or get accidentally poisoned. It should be interesting then to see who can cure these afflictions if the Cleric is out there adventuring.
A few things to consider.
1) While building a city, putting in place various buildings and such, does not mean that the PCs own them. That means that they do not own the wizard's tower, even thought the tower benefits the kingdom in certain ways.
2) The cohort will need maintenance, that is, housing, food, creature comforts and such. They will also need time to accumulate or create or prepare the ingredients to make magic items.
3) While the cohort is loyal to the PC, they too have wants and needs.
For simplicity sakes, I would roll those in at a total cost of 25% of item creation costs. This will mean that the PC gains the items at 75% cost, which is still a savings, just not as large.
With that in place, I would run Kingmaker as normal.
I would keep an eye on what they were creating, to make sure that it wasn't going to unbalance the game too much. If they were making lots of consumables, or adding in extra features on a few items (ring of feather fall and water walking), I would let them run. If they were making uber magic items, I would consider throwing in a few wrenches every now and then.
Ex: Making a +4 vorpal sword of xxx bane, may have someone wait until the item is almost done and either steal it (to finish it - leader from another kingdom) or destroy it before it is finished (a powerful creature of xxx type).
