@TOZ
Part of why we roll is because point buy gives a lower average than our rolls. There would be no point in rolling if we came up with: 12, 7, 8, 9, 14, 3; which is a real possibility if we roll one set of random stats.
@hogarth
Yeah, it's possible to have especially low stats with random rolls, which is not allowed for by the PB chart. That alone kind of bugs me, actually. It's fun to have a 5 in a stat sometimes.
@kyrt
Apologies, I thought the "you can't reroll the same die twice, even if it is also a 1" was understood.
The dartboard comment might have been a bit ridiculous, but consider this: Hit points, a permanent character feature of significant importance, were rolled in the original rules (and still are now by some groups). Imagine if you also rolled your skill ranks each level? d4 for 2/level classes, d8 for 4, d12 for 6 and 2d8 for 8?
If that had been the rule all along, there would still be people claiming it's wrong to take the predictable route that lets you choose how much to learn each level.
I think that comparison works better.
Edit: In fact, there are some games systems that actually do this.
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@TOZ
Part of why we roll is because point buy gives a lower average than our rolls. There would be no point in rolling if we came up with: 12, 7, 8, 9, 14, 3; which is a real possibility if we roll one set of random stats.
I'm pretty sure my 42 point buy characters have a higher average than your rolls. ;P
I thought the whole point of rolling was to let the dice decide your stats. Which includes the risk of them deciding you start with low stats.
If you want to avoid that possibility, why not just pick the numbers you want, that are at a suitable level for your tastes?
Do I use them for in game combat usually? No, however sometimes you just have to make a point to a DM that thinks rolling stats is fair. Some people can get 5 point buys to 45 point buys. Do you know how bad it feels to get your highest stat as a 13?
HAHAHA
So when someone says they like random chance involved in stat gen, you deliberately remove all possibility of random chance and lie to them so they'll regret allowing you to come up with these "random" stats? What point are you proving, exactly? That rolling dice is unfair if one person cheats? Well, shucks, who'd have thought?
What do you do when a DM asks you to roll an attack, prove a point by pulling out your weighted d20 and critting three times in a row?
And yes, I know what it's like to have your highest stat be a 13. I also know what it's like to say, "Hey, my stats came out crazy low, is everyone okay with me using the same array as Joe?"
If you want to avoid that possibility, why not just pick the numbers you want, that are at a suitable level for your tastes?
Honestly? We like rolling the dice. Sometimes our poor roller actually does just pick his stats. It's not uncommon for us to shift points around on a 1 to 1 basis either. It's a pretty loose thing, for us. (We also occasionally gift xp to each other when someone is within a few hundred of level up, we're nuts that way.)
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Haha.
At some point I might take a group and tell them, "Choose whatever stats you feel is appropriate for your character concept."
No point buy. No rolling. Just pick the numbers. :P
It'll probably end up more 'fair' than most rolling methods.
I'm pretty sure my 42 point buy characters have a higher average than your rolls. ;P
Tell you what, you give me an explanation for why you settled on 42 points, and what a stat of 5 gives you (points-wise; judging by the chart on the SRD it should be 16 extra points) and I'll think about making my next character in this way.
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Tell you what, you give me an explanation for why you settled on 42 points, and what a stat of 5 gives you (points-wise; judging by the chart on the SRD it should be 16 extra points) and I'll think about making my next character in this way.
I wanted the characters to be powerful, survive the low levels where things are swingy, and be able to restrict stat boosting items later on without gimping the party, effectively building the stat boosters into their characters.
As for stat of 5, I would say 'you get no points for reducing your ability scores from the baseline'. Basically, if you want a low stat for roleplay reasons, you don't need extra points for it, the roleplay is reward enough. And with 42 points, I see no reason to give you more anyway. ;)
I have an idea, let's put all the methods for random stat rolling proposed here in a table, and roll 4d6 drop the lowest to choose the random stat generation at random.
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Good call, PC.
So does that mean your 42 point buy allows baseline (aka before racial mods) stats above 18? (Your Dwarf Ranger got a baseline stat above 18, so I have to ask :P)
You'll note that the dwarf was under the 5d6 keep 4 rules. But no, there are no purchases beyond 18. Which doesn't matter too much when you're playing catfolk and Savage Species eladrin. :P
Kuma, have you considered having each player roll one number each and use that stat line for the whole group? Then you have the lucky players countering the unlucky players.
Only works if you have 6 players, though.
For once I was only joking, and my posts get deleted. Oh, well.
I've never heard of rolling 5d6. How does that even work?
I wanted the characters to be powerful, survive the low levels where things are swingy, and be able to restrict stat boosting items later on without gimping the party, effectively building the stat boosters into their characters.As for stat of 5, I would say 'you get no points for reducing your ability scores from the baseline'. Basically, if you want a low stat for roleplay reasons, you don't need extra points for it, the roleplay is reward enough. And with 42 points, I see no reason to give you more anyway. ;)
Hum. 42 just seems like such a strange number to settle on. Well, you explained it, so I'll try generating a character this way; see how she flies.
I prefer point buy. Nothing worse the making up a character alone and rolling god like stats that no one would believe when you bring the character to the gaming table. But if you get this awesome idea for character and want to build it see how it works out you have point buy, no one can question you on that. I usually start with a 15 pt buy and build the character. Then I work out the changes if it's 20 pt and 25 pt. Then when a game comes up and I need a character it's there ready to go and easily modified if the group plays a different point buy level.
As well I usually have idea of the character I want to play. Rolling can totally screw that up. I've rolled stats that just won't work. For example you have this idea for Monk but roll a set of stats that is 18,13,12,10,9,9. Now trying making monk out of that. Those stats work great for any single attribute dependent class like Wizard or Fighter but no so good for a monk.
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voska66 makes a good point. And he reminds me: dice-rolling sneetches tend to roll up parties together, while point-buying sneetches build individual PCs.
After all, you can't roll up a character without a GM present. And if everybody's present, you can make decisions together about what kind of party everybody wants to play.
This may be an overgeneralization, but I've gotten the feeling that point-buying sneetches come to the first session with their characters pre-built, as oposed to having discussions about who's going to buy up a high Charisma.
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This is true now that you bring it up... Groups I have played in that roll tend to have one session devoted to building characters as a party. Groups that I have played in that point buy tend to build their characters separately and come prepped with a complete build ready to go. This might be part of the reason I like rolling. That back story you create as a team as you roll up the characters and decide on roles and concepts. One of the other reasons I don't like point buy is how cheaply 18s are handed out for the price of a 7 or two. The way I roll those 18s are special and rare. They mean something. It is understood that the person who rolled well above the crowd will be taking point and putting himself in the most danger. And the guy who rolled well behind the rest of the crowd is often given a reroll. Now you have a team of people most of whom are right about the same capability as each other. There is that one guy who stands out from time to time. But in our group he shoulders more attacks than the rest and runs a higher risk to go with his higher capability.
This is true now that you bring it up... Groups I have played in that roll tend to have one session devoted to building characters as a party. Groups that I have played in that point buy tend to build their characters separately and come prepped with a complete build ready to go. This might be part of the reason I like rolling. That back story you create as a team as you roll up the characters and decide on roles and concepts. One of the other reasons I don't like point buy is how cheaply 18s are handed out for the price of a 7 or two. The way I roll those 18s are special and rare. They mean something. It is understood that the person who rolled well above the crowd will be taking point and putting himself in the most danger. And the guy who rolled well behind the rest of the crowd is often given a reroll. Now you have a team of people most of whom are right about the same capability as each other. There is that one guy who stands out from time to time. But in our group he shoulders more attacks than the rest and runs a higher risk to go with his higher capability.
We play rolled stats as I can't convince my players to even try point buy. I prefer point buy personally if I was creating a character and for me 18s are rare because I just hate dumping any stat.
As for rolling we I get my group to all roll a stats. The stats are compared and the odd man is out and re-rolls stats till they fit the group. I have 3 players so 3 set of stats. So 2 sets of high stats and 1 set of low means the low person gets re-roll till he is with in a range of the other 2. Same in reverse, two low stats and one high and the low stat person re-rolls. I use 2D6+6 for stat generation as this gives the low a stat of 8 so with racial bonus it could be as low as 6. It tends to generate stats in the 12-15 range with odd low and high stat. Basically between what 20 and 30 pt build would generate.
Only works if you have 6 players, though.Not really. 7+ players means you take the 6 highest, less than 6 means you determine who rolls extra, be it the DM or the players.
I didn't think I had to spell it out for everyone. Then again, neither did Kuma with the 'reroll 1s' bit.
And if you have fewer than 6 players?
This is true now that you bring it up... Groups I have played in that roll tend to have one session devoted to building characters as a party. Groups that I have played in that point buy tend to build their characters separately and come prepped with a complete build ready to go. This might be part of the reason I like rolling. That back story you create as a team as you roll up the characters and decide on roles and concepts. One of the other reasons I don't like point buy is how cheaply 18s are handed out for the price of a 7 or two. The way I roll those 18s are special and rare. They mean something. It is understood that the person who rolled well above the crowd will be taking point and putting himself in the most danger. And the guy who rolled well behind the rest of the crowd is often given a reroll. Now you have a team of people most of whom are right about the same capability as each other. There is that one guy who stands out from time to time. But in our group he shoulders more attacks than the rest and runs a higher risk to go with his higher capability.
And if the guy with the 18 is playing a wizard? He should set up his squishy to tank or something?
That makes little sense to me. If exceptional characters like that are rare, then the party should band together to protect it, as it won't be easy to replace, rather than tossed out there to take the lion's share of risk.
Point buy is the only balanced and fair way to go when generating stats.Incorrect. Stat array.
Nope stat arrays are biased towards certain classes depending on how they're arranged.
Nope stat arrays are biased towards certain classes depending on how they're arranged.Point buy is the only balanced and fair way to go when generating stats.Incorrect. Stat array.18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10
Which class is that biased towards?
munchkin.
munchkin.Nope stat arrays are biased towards certain classes depending on how they're arranged.Point buy is the only balanced and fair way to go when generating stats.Incorrect. Stat array.18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10
Which class is that biased towards?
Is it the stats themselves that automatically equate that array to Munchkinism in your opinion? Because I've played with folks who would consider that an average array. These were RP-focused people. They weren't optimizers, they just preferred playing more glamorous characters.
It's relative, and high-power =/= Munchkinism.
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Nope stat arrays are biased towards certain classes depending on how they're arranged.
What does that have to do with balance or fairness?
If everyone agrees to the array, it's fair. And if they are aware that one class gets more out of the stats than another, before they pick their class, it's fair.
And let's not get into another class balance argument. Some people think the classes are balanced, some don't. Stats only unbalance your game if you let them.
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Hum. 42 just seems like such a strange number to settle on. Well, you explained it, so I'll try generating a character this way; see how she flies.
I completely forgot to mention that I use 3.5, which has a different point buy scale. I think I did the math and determined it would be 37 point buy in PF.
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That seems a little extreme even for a super powered game. If you are looking for high power right at the edge of going overboard try 5d6 drop the second lowest.
I've tried that too. My wife was running the 5d6 drop lowest. The fighter ended up with 20+ in Str and Dex, and she let him TWF with bastard swords at normal penalties. Not that he needed them, as he grappled every foe and subdued them with non-lethal damage.
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This might be part of the reason I like rolling. That back story you create as a team as you roll up the characters and decide on roles and concepts. One of the other reasons I don't like point buy is how cheaply 18s are handed out for the price of a 7 or two. The way I roll those 18s are special and rare. They mean something. It is understood that the person who rolled well above the crowd will be taking point and putting himself in the most danger. And the guy who rolled well behind the rest of the crowd is often given a reroll. Now you have a team of people most of whom are right about the same capability as each other. There is that one guy who stands out from time to time. But in our group he shoulders more attacks than the rest and runs a higher risk to go with his higher capability.
I could tell pretty much the exact same story by replacing "rolling" by "point-buy"... Heck, I'll do.
This might be part of the reason I like point-buy. The moment of surprise when we discover in the game what concept or according backgrounds each player has come up with, without anyone feeling like he's been given only 2/3 the beginning money on a Monopoly. One of the other reasons I don't like rolling is how cheaply it is to roll, then provide rerolls if the first is deemed too low in comparison to the others ; or if one player comes out of it with awesome stats, leaving everyone lacking in comparison. The way I can build my character as I imagine it, with it's flaws and strengths and without making anyone feel cheated, is truely perfect. My stats mean something. It is understood that the blatant abuse of stat-dumping is bad form, and makes interesting characters look like failed attempts at munchkinism. No guy is left behind or standing out, outside of roleplay. Now you have a team of people who are right about the same capability as each other, but always in different domains. There is that one guy who stands out from time to time. But in our group each concept is usually able to deal with a situation, making us feel like a group of totally opposites strangers discovering friendship and teamwork through adventuring.
I have people roll stats in my games, although I'm thinking of trying a point buy with my current group if we do a third game. I've built characters using both rolling and point buying and I'm fine with either system. I just want everyone using the same system for generating stats, whatever the hell it is.
When I first started out GMing I did a game where people were supposed to use the 25 pt buy and two of the players rolled their stats instead and it was distinctly uneven. I should have made them go back and change things, but I hadn't learned how to assert my authority yet. I'm surprised the game lasted as many sessions as it did. Anyway, that fiasco is why I've just stuck to rolling since then, even though I've since moved away for college and have (except for my husband) a whole new group of people.
One of my friends who GMs has people role 4d6 drop 1s and 2s under the theory that no one should have to suffer having a stat less than 9. His players always end up super powerful, so he'll do things like send three PCs against forty orcs.