|
There have been several coup de graces in our game lately resulting in a total of 5 deaths (2 PCs, 3 NPCs).
So we had some lively discussion about what could be done.
An idea that has emerged was enchanting some light armor (padded or even just cloths) and giving them Fortification enhancements.
Since a coup de grace is a confirmed critical, and fortification has a chance to negate a critical it seems like this is a possible solution.
While it may not be perfect, preventing some of damage (especially from x3 & x4 weapons) would if nothing else put the Fort save within a reasonable range.
Are there any other ways to help negate coup de graces?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How are the PC's getting in a position to be coup de graced?
I think doing what you can to remain conscious is the first order of business.
|
Interesting way to look at coup de grace, as being a crit in letter and not just in spirit.
Play test it for a few sessions and let us know, please.
For me, I'd probably rule that the "crit" damage from a coup de grace, while equal in damage, is not "crit damage" but merely equal to crit damage.
I don't feel one should be immune to a coup de grace (without DR or something).
Coup de graces are most defiantly crits, as stated in the actual description, so fortification could reduce the extra damage it grants.
However, the honest answer with dealing with coup de graces is simply "don't let yourself get couped".
How exactly have the coups come about? If it's hold spells, then will save boosts all the way, otherwise consider looking at perception boosts and taking turns keeping watch.
If that can't be avoided, then fortification and similar anti crit measures seem to be about the only real method for stopping them.
Coup de grace is normally a full round action so moving an enemy away from the downed ally by spells or combat maneuvers or moving the ally could help temporarily.
It also provokes an attack of opportunity so position to threaten the enemy before he can coup de grace.
Paladin mercies can remove conditions that cause helplessness from allies.
Playing a race or polymorph type spell to gain immunity to crits or immunity to conditions that cause helplessness would help. My memory is a little bit cloudy between 3.5 and pathfinder on this point but I know there are many in 3.5 and at least some in pathfinder (eg elemental body III).
Total concealment causes coup de grace to require 2 full round actions so being invisible or blinding an enemy could do the trick.
|
Coup de grace is normally a full round action so moving an enemy away from the downed ally by spells or combat maneuvers or moving the ally could help temporarily.
A coup de grace is a full round action. If the bad guy starts next to the target, or can 5-foot step to within reach of the target, it is completed within his turn; it doesn't require that the target is within reach until the start of his next turn. Keeping the helpless target and the bad guy separated certainly helps, if that was your point.
It also provokes an attack of opportunity so position to threaten the enemy before he can coup de grace.
If he's willing to suck up the AoO, then this doesn't stop it. Whether he's willing to take the AoO to CdG is another story.
An idea that has emerged was enchanting some light armor (padded or even just cloths) and giving them Fortification enhancements.
Fortification should help vs. the CdG. If the idea is to wear multiple suits of armor, this isn't well supported by the game system, but I'm not up on the nuances in PF in this matter, so will leave it to others if this was the idea.
I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.
I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.
Think of it this way, the fortification isn't *stopping* the crit, it's just forcing it back into line with being attacked while flat footed, by granting a strong protection to the critical areas of the wearer.
I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.Think of it this way, the fortification isn't *stopping* the crit, it's just forcing it back into line with being attacked while flat footed, by granting a strong protection to the critical areas of the wearer.
As I stated in my games this would lower the DC but your neck is still getting sliced.
An easy way to test this with your players is have the next guy they try to CdG wearing the lightest armor possible with the highest fortifcation possible and have see how they react if they start calling BS but you know they wouldn't if it was them not being killed you don't need it.
As I stated in my games this would lower the DC but your neck is still getting sliced.
An easy way to test this with your players is have the next guy they try to CdG wearing the lightest armor possible with the highest fortifcation possible and have see how they react if they start calling BS but you know they wouldn't if it was them not being killed you don't need it.
Well, a lot of my players are munchkins and have long understood, arguing a rule against me, just backfires when they try to use it later on.
I've got to admit, i'll never understand why in games as high magic as this the big things are just accepted, but small things become something people stand up and shout about.
If I hadn't gotten used to it any spell that created something, temporarily or not, would instantly cause the universe to implode, and don't even get me started on teleportation.
It also provokes an attack of opportunity so position to threaten the enemy before he can coup de grace.If he's willing to suck up the AoO, then this doesn't stop it. Whether he's willing to take the AoO to CdG is another story.
If he dies from the aao it does, theres always hope :P
To the discussion about fortification: heavy fortification is kinda expensive at a +5 bonus, even then it has only a 75% chance to succeed. Letting it prevent the fort save doesn't seem like a big deal. Especially considering that one of the common ways to get cdged is being below 0 hp so there is a decent chance to die anyway.
|
|
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night. The folks on watch failed to spot them (Perception rolls were lower than the Stealth rolls).
Sleeping = Helpless and thus open to coup de graces.
On the 1st round 3 NPCs died.
On the 2nd round one of the 5' stepped to the next sleeping person and attempted to do it again (that sleeping person failed his perception check to wake up).
Some of the suggestions that they had were improvements to the camp (increasing defences to reduce incoming stealthers), invest in spells (alarm, rope trick).
If he's willing to suck up the AoO, then this doesn't stop it.
Disarm him with your AoO (Unless he's something that can't be disarmed). Unless he's got quick-draw or improved unarmed strike or something like spiked gauntlets, he's got to spend an action to get out a new weapon and so can't spend a full-round action to coup.
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night.
No offense, but I've always thought CdG on PCs is sort of a jerk DM move. If it's in combat, maybe they should knock down the guys still fighting and a threat before killing the helpless? Or, in the camp, capture them instead of just killing them without a chance for an action. Helpless is willing, so just teleport a few out and have a jailbreak/rescue later. Or have the evil assassin pop in, kill an NPC, then leave, and start coming back each night to give the party time to organize a defense.
Even ghouls should probably focus on people who are not paralyzed before having their way with the victims.
Anyway, back to the OP and rules...
Coup de Grace: "You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save or die."
"You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits."
Fortification: "When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally."
So Orc performs the CdG. Roll the chance on your Fortification. If success, the critical hit is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. If the defender survives this damage, he makes his Fort save vs death.
The only way to fully prevent the CdG is to become immune to crits. I would say if they found a way to get 100% fortification, then no CgD, it would just be a regular attack, and no fort save.
Speaking of which, anyone know if Fortification stacks? +1 Moderate Fortification Armor and +1 Moderate Fortification Shield, both are 50%, would they stack to 100%? Or roll each chance in series? (IE: roll once, 50% chance, if fail, roll again 50% chance, if fail, crit happens normally) Probably the latter...
No offense, but I've always thought CdG on PCs is sort of a jerk DM move. If it's in combat, maybe they should knock down the guys still fighting and a threat before killing the helpless? Or, in the camp, capture them instead of just killing them without a chance for an action. Helpless is willing, so just teleport a few out and have a jailbreak/rescue later. Or have the evil assassin pop in, kill an NPC, then leave, and start coming back each night to give the party time to organize a defense.
Once again, like in the thread about kicking a PC who is already below 0 hp, it depends on the situation ond the opponent.
If I leave a lone opponent with a downed comrade, and it isn't apparent to him he should be doing something else, and if he is out to kill the PC - CDG.
If the PCs are making a habit out of Fighter (or rogue) delays - Cleric casts Hold Person - Fighter performs CDG, they can expect their opposition to come up with just the same.
Speaking of which, anyone know if Fortification stacks? +1 Moderate Fortification Armor and +1 Moderate Fortification Shield, both are 50%, would they stack to 100%? Or roll each chance in series? (IE: roll once, 50% chance, if fail, roll again 50% chance, if fail, crit happens normally) Probably...
To my best of knowledge, the rules are silent on this issue. Heck, these qualities might even be considered overlapping, so the second fortification is worth squat.
I'd make both rolls (but that would be an inofficial rule)
|
|
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night.No offense, but I've always thought CdG on PCs is sort of a jerk DM move. If it's in combat, maybe they should knock down the guys still fighting and a threat before killing the helpless? Or, in the camp, capture them instead of just killing them without a chance for an action. Helpless is willing, so just teleport a few out and have a jailbreak/rescue later. Or have the evil assassin pop in, kill an NPC, then leave, and start coming back each night to give the party time to organize a defense.
Even ghouls should probably focus on people who are not paralyzed before having their way with the victims.
Let me paint the picture. The party size was 5 PCs, 4 henchmen, 2 allied NPCs plus one animal companion. The PCs and the allied NPCs were lvl 5, the 4 henchmen lvl 3.
3x lvl 2 rangers with favored enemy human sneak into the camp to do mayhem. When they successfully snuck up to 3 human targets they did their coup de graces... against 1 NPC and 2 henchmen. Only on the next round did the situation present itself that there was an additional target still sleeping.
Maybe it is a jerk DM move, however it fit with the story line. The bad guys are trying to drive out/kill interlopers. I do try to play the monsters and such with some intelligence, it made sense for them to coup de grace at that time.
Coupled with the fact that previously the party had encountered other folks from the same tribe, killed them and put their heads up on spikes... then the bad guys would definitely be out for some payback. And if frontal assaults don't get the job done, then sneaky seems perfectly acceptable.
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night. The folks on watch failed to spot them (Perception rolls were lower than the Stealth rolls).
Sleeping = Helpless and thus open to coup de graces.
On the 1st round 3 NPCs died.
On the 2nd round one of the 5' stepped to the next sleeping person and attempted to do it again (that sleeping person failed his perception check to wake up).Some of the suggestions that they had were improvements to the camp (increasing defences to reduce incoming stealthers), invest in spells (alarm, rope trick).
uhmm... then i say the guards were too spread out and should have been closer to their allies. in order to stealth they need total concealment so unless they were invisible it should have been really hard. if they were inadvisable they'd have popped out of invisibility after the first CdG, unless it was greater invisibility.
And i think padded or even chain shirt +1 greater fort to sleep in is a great idea. it wouldn't be my main armor but to protect me in the night, it doesn't get much better.
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night.
No offense, but I've always thought CdG on PCs is sort of a jerk DM move....
Let me paint the picture. The party size was 5 PCs, 4 henchmen, 2 allied NPCs plus one animal companion.
Good lord... I have a feeling the DM was trying to weed out alot of micro management... that's a ton of NPC fighters! Combat nightmare for a DM!
Otherwise yeah CdG in the camp at night is a crap move if used on PC's. Id say NPC's are fair game though. The players should protect the camp better.
I always rule that a High Survival roll when finding a camp can provide a more defensible camping area (depending on how high he rolled and the area they are in).
And there are several other things the PC's can do. Alarm, traps, ect. Most the PC's in my game usually try and get rings of sustenance as soon as possible. Much harder to attack a party when they only sleep for 4 hours a night... 2 hours for an elf.
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night. The folks on watch failed to spot them (Perception rolls were lower than the Stealth rolls).
Sleeping = Helpless and thus open to coup de graces.
On the 1st round 3 NPCs died.
On the 2nd round one of the 5' stepped to the next sleeping person and attempted to do it again (that sleeping person failed his perception check to wake up).Some of the suggestions that they had were improvements to the camp (increasing defences to reduce incoming stealthers), invest in spells (alarm, rope trick).
You said two PCs had died from coup de graces, right? What was the situation with the other one (I only see one PC in this scenario).
I sort of agree with those who think this is a jerk move on the part of the GM. Party members ought not be dying helpless in numbers because of bad Perception checks. I'd hate to be this GM and this sort of cheap sneaky stuff result in a TPK.
When the first guy bit the dust, I'd probably come up with some disruption to wake the others up.
I'm usually the GM, but on one occasion when I was a player, we had this GM, a nice guy, but he was a slave to the Wandering Monster tables. All damned night long, things were sneaking into camp, taking us by surprise, guys were dying. It got very boring very fast. The GM can't always be "punishing" the PCs for not thinking of every little detail, or running out of alarm spells. Just because the GM knows all the little protections the party has forgotten, doesn't mean the bad guys always do.
I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG.
Same. The Fortification would negate the multiplied damage from the CdG, but they still have to make the Fortitude save afterwards to not die. It's just a much easier save now because they'll take much less damage.
No offense, but I've always thought CdG on PCs is sort of a jerk DM move.
For me, it always comes down to a karma issue. If the players have a tendency to constantly coup-de-grace people, then it happens to them as well, if for no other reason than their group ends up with a reputation for being merciless, and is treated in kind by their enemies.
|
|
I wouldn't allow fortification to reduce a coup de grace... it seems right by RAW, but doesn't seem to be correct by RAI. The idea of the fortified armor is that it's so awesome that dulls the blow or whatever... but coup de grace is a full round single attack - taking time to bypass armor and dress up the victim in a Columbian necktie.
Then again, coup de grace vs. the party shouldn't really be a regular tactic either. Maybe once in a campaign, MAYBE.
3x lvl 2 rangers with favored enemy human sneak into the camp to do mayhem. When they successfully snuck up to 3 human targets they did their coup de graces... against 1 NPC and 2 henchmen.
No problem so far. In fact, bravo for taking out some of that NPC dogpile.
Only on the next round did the situation present itself that there was an additional target still sleeping.
How is this even possible?
Hear the sound of battle: -10 DC
Creature making the check is asleep: +10 DC
That's effective DC 0 to wake up. Even if you rule that someone being slaughtered by a coup-de-gras doesn't make as much noise as someone fighting back, say, gurgling and gushing blood and flailing limbs about as they die should be equivalent to 'Hear the details of a conversation: DC 0' which results in sleeping DC 10, which hopefully any party member can beat if they just take 10 (which they probably should be doing, as they're sleeping). I've never seen a PC not put ranks in Perception. And as soon as one person notices them, they shout (free action, out of turn) which should wake up the rest of the party even with 0 ranks and neg wisdom.
Maybe it is a jerk DM move, however it fit with the story line. The bad guys are trying to drive out/kill interlopers. I do try to play the monsters and such with some intelligence, it made sense for them to coup de grace at that time.
It makes sense for the NPCs, but not for the continuation of a fun game, IMO. Killing a PC who (dubiously) failed a single skill check is pretty harsh.
Don't like being coup de graced? Watch your six rookie! Not every encounter should be an assassination attempt but expecting a skilled killer to take it easy on PC's is silly. PC's would look at you like you mental if you asked them to stop using any advantage they had. And expecting NPC's to take a death so that you don't coup de grace a PC is just sad. I don't advocate being a killer GM but expecting special consideration because you have PC tattooed on your head is just being a munchkin.
Might find this thread helpful.
As far as fortification and CdG, my ruling would be that fortification would have a chance to remove the critical damage, but would still require a Fort save vs death.
As far as DMs using CdG, I would say it's fine if the tactic is appropriate (like an assassination attempt), as long as you give your PCs the proper chances to react as described above. It's also fine if your PCs abuse the mechanic. Otherwise, I'd try to stay away from it!
Personally, I like the concept of a CdG (that even the strongest character can be easily gutted when he's defenseless), but I don't like the way that CdG is rendered in PF. I've had players use the Sleep + CdG trick at level 1 (yay SoD effects at lvl 1!) and then cry foul when it was used on them. There's no real good way to avoid this in a structure like DnD though, so I'm at a loss as to how to fix it =(
|
|
The situation was that the bad guys snuck into camp in the night. The folks on watch failed to spot them (Perception rolls were lower than the Stealth rolls).
Sleeping = Helpless and thus open to coup de graces.
On the 1st round 3 NPCs died.
On the 2nd round one of the 5' stepped to the next sleeping person and attempted to do it again (that sleeping person failed his perception check to wake up).Some of the suggestions that they had were improvements to the camp (increasing defences to reduce incoming stealthers), invest in spells (alarm, rope trick).
You said two PCs had died from coup de graces, right? What was the situation with the other one (I only see one PC in this scenario).
I sort of agree with those who think this is a jerk move on the part of the GM. Party members ought not be dying helpless in numbers because of bad Perception checks. I'd hate to be this GM and this sort of cheap sneaky stuff result in a TPK.
When the first guy bit the dust, I'd probably come up with some disruption to wake the others up.
I'm usually the GM, but on one occasion when I was a player, we had this GM, a nice guy, but he was a slave to the Wandering Monster tables. All damned night long, things were sneaking into camp, taking us by surprise, guys were dying. It got very boring very fast. The GM can't always be "punishing" the PCs for not thinking of every little detail, or running out of alarm spells. Just because the GM knows all the little protections the party has forgotten, doesn't mean the bad guys always do.
The other PC death was when assassins broke into the inn. The PCs had decided to split up into various rooms for the night without any precautions (the DM did ask if they were doing anything special). Failed perception check to wake up... coup de grace. In this case there were others in the room who did wake up... the assassin took the AOO.
|
|
So in summary, the options to prevent coup de graces are:
1) don't be helpless/have a wake up plan (alarm spells, etc)
2) don't be out in the open (rope trick for the night)
3) get gear to negate critical hits (and thus the coup de grace)
4) possibly have extra guards up (especially if there is extra bodies) and that they need to be positioned to help negate stealthers
Does that pretty much cover it?
So in summary, the options to prevent coup de graces are:
1) don't be helpless/have a wake up plan (alarm spells, etc)
2) don't be out in the open (rope trick for the night)
3) get gear to negate critical hits (and thus the coup de grace)
4) possibly have extra guards up (especially if there is extra bodies) and that they need to be positioned to help negate stealthersDoes that pretty much cover it?
Be undead? No seriously, for about 1,400 gp top-end, you can have someone cast create undead to resurrect you as a ghoul, ghast, or mummy. All of which are immune to the instant death portion (damage still might kill you), and are less likely to be ambushed while they sleep for the sheer fact they don't sleep. Ghouls and Ghasts have a relatively small level adjustment, and it vanishes over the 20 levels (due to the way CR to PC levels functions).
|
|
I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.
My "solution" for that has been to limit no armour or light armour to light fortification, medium armour to medium fortification and allow heavy fortification only for heavy armour.
Shields light or medium, depending if they are light shields/bucklers or heavy shields.
It is one of the "fighters should have fancy things" options in my game world.
No wizard will have more than light fortification.
I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.My "solution" for that has been to limit no armour or light armour to light fortification, medium armour to medium fortification and allow heavy fortification only for heavy armour.
Shields light or medium, depending if they are light shields/bucklers or heavy shields.
It is one of the "fighters should have fancy things" options in my game world.
No wizard will have more than light fortification.
How do you fluff that out in fantasyland?
|
|
And there are several other things the PC's can do. Alarm, traps, ect. Most the PC's in my game usually try and get rings of sustenance as soon as possible. Much harder to attack a party when they only sleep for 4 hours a night... 2 hours for an elf.
Note that in Pathfinder elf sleep normally. The don't trance or sleep only 2 hours.
|
|
How do you fluff that out in fantasyland?I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.My "solution" for that has been to limit no armour or light armour to light fortification, medium armour to medium fortification and allow heavy fortification only for heavy armour.
Shields light or medium, depending if they are light shields/bucklers or heavy shields.
It is one of the "fighters should have fancy things" options in my game world.
No wizard will have more than light fortification.
The fortification effect need a physical back up. It cover for gaps in the armour and give a generic improvement to the character defence, but without a strong base to anchor it its power is limited.
How do you fluff that out in fantasyland?I personally would allow the fortificantion to reduce the damage if it negated the crit but not the entire CdG. I'm fine with magic making it harder but not with having on a leather shirt that makes it impossible to slit my throat even if it is only 3/4 tries.My "solution" for that has been to limit no armour or light armour to light fortification, medium armour to medium fortification and allow heavy fortification only for heavy armour.
Shields light or medium, depending if they are light shields/bucklers or heavy shields.
It is one of the "fighters should have fancy things" options in my game world.
No wizard will have more than light fortification.The fortification effect need a physical back up. It cover for gaps in the armour and give a generic improvement to the character defence, but without a strong base to anchor it its power is limited.
Which is why rings of protection don't actually provide bonuses to your AC unless the ring weighs 30 pounds and is worn around your waist and connected to a sister ring by a mithral string.
So in summary, the options to prevent coup de graces are:
1) don't be helpless/have a wake up plan (alarm spells, etc)
2) don't be out in the open (rope trick for the night)
3) get gear to negate critical hits (and thus the coup de grace)
4) possibly have extra guards up (especially if there is extra bodies) and that they need to be positioned to help negate stealthersDoes that pretty much cover it?
5) when you notice an assassin in the room, shout to wake up the guy he's about to kill.
Which is why rings of protection don't actually provide bonuses to your AC unless the ring weighs 30 pounds and is worn around your waist and connected to a sister ring by a mithral string.I guess it's the interpretation of whether the Fortification is magically created or mundanely crafted.
Given that it's a magical enhancement listed on the magical enhancements list and uses up a point of magical enhancement, and is not applied with sweet ranks in Craft (Armorsmithing) but through the Craft Magical Arms & Armor feat and primarily produced via the Spellcraft skill and requires limited wish or miracle and assumes 13 caster levels, it'd be pretty asinine to try to suggest that it was mundanely crafted.
That's me, asinine all the way. Thanks.
You're very welcome. :)
|
|
Which is why rings of protection don't actually provide bonuses to your AC unless the ring weighs 30 pounds and is worn around your waist and connected to a sister ring by a mithral string.
Wraith asked what was my fluff reason to limit fortification depending to the kind of armour you use. I gave it. All about an houserule and fortification, nothing about deflection effects.
Deflection effects are the epitome of something that don't need a powerful physical back up.
So Ashiel, please, avoid useless, unrelated, comments.
Which is why rings of protection don't actually provide bonuses to your AC unless the ring weighs 30 pounds and is worn around your waist and connected to a sister ring by a mithral string.Wraith asked what was my fluff reason to limit fortification depending to the kind of armour you use. I gave it. All about an houserule and fortification, nothing about deflection effects.
Deflection effects are the epitome of something that don't need a powerful physical back up.
So Ashiel, please, avoid useless, unrelated, comments.
In either case you're using magic energies to prevent someone from putting a spoon through your eye.
Youuuuu ranggggg?
I hope it's not too late to add to this thread.
I ran into the same issue, mainly because I play my bad guys as if I was playing my own characters. If it's in their personality to CdG, and the guy is open to it, I'm taking the shot.
However, at lowever levels where Sleep and Hold Person can easily put a PC in that situations, and raise dead isn't an option, it would end PC careers before they even got far off the ground. Low level CdG's account for nearly 3/4 of PC deaths in my games before level 5.
There are several things I do to give players, as heroes, an upper hand.
First, I use hero points (Advanced Player's Guide). They have the ability to, in a limited way, fudge their own dice rolls. 1 hero point can let them reroll or add to that saving throw versus hold person. 2 hero points turns a deadly CdG into a wound that puts the character at negative CON.
Second, I changed the Fort save (Which is really a joke) to damage dealt, instead of 10+damage dealt. Again, a player can use a hero point before making that roll to buff it if necessary.
Third, I make it a point to educate newer players. Whether I discuss it with them (Like, before the session when we're chatting, I'll tell them what happened to another group) or in game (perhaps they see a scene where a person is slept and CdG).
Hope this helps! Let me know!!
I make my game's difficult for my players. CdG Is very reasonable as a DM. If nothing else it teaches them to watch there 6 and gives them a sense of realism. I seek to challenge my players.
I'm a very big fan of challenging the players. I've had people leave stating that I approach the game too much like a tactical simulation. LOL. I believe that in order for their to be a sense of satisfaction, there must be a very real sense of danger and possibility of failure. So, I agree with you there.
However, with that being said, I have found the sleep/hold + CdG to be extremely effective at killing at low levels. Players just don't have a lot of tools to deal with spellcasters at those low levels, and it's very easy for a bad guy to do. I play agressively as a GM at all times, but this combo, as I mentioned before, kills more level 1-4 players than anything else. It's just too easy to do. (At level 5, you get dispel magic, which can help prevent the CDG, and melee people are normally picking up a few feats by then to help punish castesr).
So, without houseruling it out altogether, and keeping it a danager to be reckoned with, I found that allowing hero points (which just about every player loves) and lowering the DC (Which benefits mostly at lower much more than higher), makes Hold+CDG a little more managable. Don't worry, they still have plenty of challenge! (In fact, someone kicked the bucket last week. D'OH!)