I'm trying to get my family to make characters. My mother who played DnD back in the day told me that she wanted to play a rogue. Great!
Then she said she wanted to use a quarterstaff and I winced.
I love the quarterstaff. when I was thinking stage combat it was one of my favorite weapons.
There is also a lot of lore surrounding the English Quarterstaff martial art.
The truth is the quarterstaff sucks in Pathfinder.
I've looked at the feats specifically for it and they are very underwhelming.
Please help me find a way of making the quarterstaff viable.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Make a high strength rogue.
Take bludgeoneer
Take sap master
You can explore two weapon fighting also, but she might just be better off going with power attack and using it as a two handed weapon and not investing a ton in dexterity.
Wow, you are awesome sir. although she wanted to have a high Dex. Moms what do you do.
And here's the problem.
META, we know by RAW the Qstaff sucks, however the player (in this case) just likes the fluff of it.
I reckon just let her roll with the stick, lack of crunch be damned.
Style > Substance all the way :)
And here's the problem.
META, we know by RAW the Qstaff sucks, however the player (in this case) just likes the fluff of it.
I reckon just let her roll with the stick, lack of crunch be damned.
Style > Substance all the way :)
While I would usually agree with you, he should still make sure she knows that it will be a sub-par choice.
If she's ok with it then, that's fine, otherwise she may get frustrated with it, because she ends up being not very effective in combat.Is there a way to get the quarterstaff finesse-able when TWF? It might be a decent choice then for a TWF rogue.
Problem with Bludgeneer and sap master is that while it's cool, you end up with alot of unconcious instead of dead enemies... you can't always drag them to the authorities, so now what do you do with them? Slaughter them in cold blood? Leave them for the elements/animals? Let them go to come back the next day?
I dunno.
Early days I'd just let the matter slide, you want to engage people on the concept of roleplaying and creating interesting characters they actually want to play, and then break some of the rules stuff to them afterwards.
It is difficult to get someone to grasp sub-par when they don't understand the benchmarks. Turning it into a mathematical equation and rules session can be a quick way to turn new players (especially adults) off the concept.
I have found a fair few times that 'combat optimisation' was waaaaay down the list, especially for older females just getting started. Then again a fair few guys just wanted to roll up a 'really cool dude'.
Mechanics don't make the game, they are just a part of it :)
Maybe she doesn't WANT to kill the bad guys...!
Problem with Bludgeneer and sap master is that while it's cool, you end up with alot of unconcious instead of dead enemies... you can't always drag them to the authorities, so now what do you do with them? Slaughter them in cold blood? Leave them for the elements/animals? Let them go to come back the next day?
I don't see any of these as problems. I plan on running them through kingmaker so knocking people out seems preferable to killing them anyway.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So long as you don't have a room full of optimizers, a rogue with bludgeoneer/ sap master should be fine damage-wise. Optimizing is highly over-rated, it's only 'required' if you are in a group full of other people who do it.
Also, I know a lot of players who would love the idea of NOT killing everything they encounter. The ability to effectively crank out nonlethal damage has long been one of my favorite things about the monk. Also, the quarterstaff fighter doing nonlethal is very appropriate historically, and in game.
Sadly, there is no feat that I know of that lets you finesse a quarterstaff, that would be a perfect fit.
If your mother played DnD back in the day, she might be thinking about the old acrobat rogue that AD@D first ed. had as a sub-class. Perhaps make an archetype for her that allows her better use of the quaterstaff and acrobatics inexchange for other profiecencies.
She played Basic DnD.
The light blue box with the dragon on the cover... she gave it to me.
But that does make me think about all those really cool acrobatic tricks that people do with quarter staffs in moves and junk.
Hum... It almost seems like THE finesseable weapon.
But that does make me think about all those really cool acrobatic tricks that people do with quarter staffs in moves and junk.
Hum... It almost seems like THE finesseable weapon.
Well, comparing its weight to, say, the light mace, I don't see why not. In fact, my first PbP character was a quarterstaff-using swashbuckler (3.5), and the DM agreed to let it count as a finessable weapon. I was looking forward to having a mithral staff, too - yes, I know it's supposed to be wooden only, but don't tell me you can't make a long rod from any metal, either.
With the bludgeoneer/sap master feats, I'd say it should be fine. If you want, you can make a pseudo-weapon specialization feat that can only be taken for a simple weapon (and would stack with "true" WS), that is also available for non-fighters. This way people will be rewarded if they want to take their time and specialize in a simple weapon. Also, she may want to look at the swashbuckler archetype for the rogue - although I think it may need some tweaking in her case. Losing trapfinding (serious bonuses to 2 useful skills) for 1 martial weapon proficiency and being able to take a feat as a rogue talent once more doesn't seem all that good in her case... consider giving her a weapon focus instead of the martial profiency OR weakened weapon training instead of it all.
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Just let her use weapon finesse with the staff she will still be behind dual wielding short swords by only having a threat range of 20.
From "Ultimate Magic" there's the Quarterstaff Master feat that allows a wielder with Weapon Focus (staff) to use it one-handed, as well as Tripping Staff, which turns the quarterstaff into a weapon with the Trip special feature. At a higher level, she could also take Tripping Twirl, allowing an attack on all adjacent enemies.
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You're the DM. She's your mom. Bend the rules. No problem.
You're the DM. She's your mom. Bend the rules. No problem.
I'm a stickler for the rules.
Following rules is about trust.
My mom trust me.
My players trust me.
Also, don't forget "Shield of Swings" (APG) - the perfect flavor and useful feat to go with a quarterstaff. The quarterstaff doesn't suck, get over the notion. So there are two-handed weapons out there that do 2d6 instead of 1d6. That only increases the expected damage by 3.5.
It doesn't really matter if you deal 35.5 or 39 damage. It's close enough. Whoopdeedoo. The real damage increases come from stacking in power attack, high strength, sneak attack (and double-up sneak attack from the sap-tree range).
If you're desperate for a high-damage quarterstaff, then invest in oils of shillelagh.
Also, don't forget "Shield of Swings" (APG)
That awesome and can be taken with a rogue talent.
Dennis Baker already suggested the sap feats.
I actually want to make this character for myself now.
There's a lot more options that I had originally thought.
Thanks guys.
Keep em coming if you have any.
I wish there was an easy way of getting bo staff proficiency without taking the feat.
You could go first level in Fighter: unarmed fighter archetype. You get all monk weapons for free, even the exotic ones, what is a nice addition to the improved unarmed strike and the style feat you get.
But you could just take the hanbo which has trip instead of double and is a simple weapon with which you are already proficient.
Also consider the knockout artist feat, still enhancing nonlethal sneak attack damage.
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As other posters before said, optimizing is overrated and i agree.
However since feats are not that plenty with the rogue you should choose a route you want to go.
The question is do you want to trip or sneak attack or deal nonlethal damage? All of it is a little bit taxing.
With some rules tweaking or homeruling however you can do some nice builds. Just allow Weapon Finesse for the Quarterstaff and replace power attack with piranha strike if you want to take shield of swings for example. I guess that´s quite fair and not such a big difference from original rules.
Then three possibilites go on from combat expertise
-blind fight - moonlight stalker - moonlight stalker feint
(but you also need dark or low light vision for this feats, but it allows you to feint as a swift action and +2 attack and damage with concealment)
-two weapon fighting - two weapon feint -maybe two weapon defense
(this allows you sneak attack sometimes)
-impoved trip -weapon focus - tripping staff - tripping strike - greater trip
(tripping twirl needs weapon specialization which only fighters get at level 4)
Then you can consider stuff like bludgeoner, sap adept, sap master and knockout artist.
Due to the costly build you are limited, but i´m pretty sure its a real fun build to play!
Then you can consider stuff like bludgeoner, sap adept, sap master and knockout artist.
Due to the costly build you are limited, but i´m pretty sure its a real fun build to play!
I'm defiantly thinking these three but your right I need a way to make a flat-footed opponent. And feinting seems like one of the best options.
I kinda thing a ninja quarterstaff would be better but the poison use would seldom get used.
then again it seldom is.
[off topic]My low-level druid quite enjoys his staff after casting 'Shillaligh' (or however it's spelled).
2D6+1 plus two-handed is fun.[/off topic]
Then you can consider stuff like bludgeoner, sap adept, sap master and knockout artist.
Due to the costly build you are limited, but i´m pretty sure its a real fun build to play!
I'm defiantly thinking these three but your right I need a way to make a flat-footed opponent. And feinting seems like one of the best options.
I kinda thing a ninja quarterstaff would be better but the poison use would seldom get used.
then again it seldom is.
If you go ninja take invisible blade at level ten, you get an automatic +2 benefits from monlight stalker then when invisible.
Then you can consider stuff like bludgeoner, sap adept, sap master and knockout artist.
Due to the costly build you are limited, but i´m pretty sure its a real fun build to play!
I'm defiantly thinking these three but your right I need a way to make a flat-footed opponent. And feinting seems like one of the best options.
I kinda thing a ninja quarterstaff would be better but the poison use would seldom get used.
then again it seldom is.
Another idea might be to take 1st level monk and staff beocmes a monk weapon she will be able to flurry with it. Then the rest in rogue. There are so many possiblilties. Your mom has experience with RPGs, she will catch on. Tell her the options she has and let her have fun with it. That is what RPGs are for.
crunching a few number it seems that TWF is better then power attack when i comes to the massive amount of damage gained from.
Sap Master (Combat)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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crunching a few number it seems that TWF is better then power attack when i comes to the massive amount of damage gained from.
Sap Master (Combat)
Yes, but to counter that, Power Attack is only three feats and doesn't require a ton of dexterity. When you start digging into TWF there are gobs of feats involved.
Personally, I think it's deceiving to judge a class based on it's full attack capability, ignoring the (IMO far more common) standard attack damage. This is particularly the case with the rogue who needs to maneuver a lot to take advantage of sneak attack.
Yes, but to counter that, Power Attack is only three feats and doesn't require a ton of dexterity. When you start digging into TWF there are gobs of feats involved.
Personally, I think it's deceiving to judge a class based on it's full attack capability, ignoring the (IMO far more common) standard attack damage. This is particularly the case with the rogue who needs to maneuver a lot to take advantage of sneak attack.
Good points especially if I'm not always getting sneak attack.... um I mean especially if SHE's not always getting sneak attack.
Let's see a level 5th human rogue. Which is the highest level you need to be to get Sap Master (Combat)
we've spent three feats
Bludgeoner (Combat) human
Sap Adept (Combat) 1st
Power attack (combat) 3rd
Sap Master (Combat) 5th
could also spent a rogue talent to get another feat or two.
assuming str 18(+4) and average rolls
attack (without sneak)
attack
17.5 =10.5 +3 +4
Damage (lethal or not lethal)
9.5 =3.5 +4 +2
power attack (without sneak)
attack
16.5 =10.5 +3 +4 -1
Damage (lethal or not lethal)
12.5 =3.5 +4 +2 +3
attack (with sneak(flanking))
attack
19.5 =10.5 +3 +4 +2
Damage(not lethal)
25 =3.5 +4 +2 +6 +9.5
Power attack (with sneak(flanking))
attack
18.5 =10.5 +3 +4 +2 -1
Damage(not lethal)
28 =3.5 +4 +2 +6 +9.5 +3
attack (with sneak(flat-footed))
attack
17.5** =10.5 +3 +4 *(flat footed) *(invisible/what-not)
Damage(not lethal)
34.5 =3.5 +4 +2 +6 +19
Power attack (with sneak(flat-footed))
attack
16.5** =10.5 +3 +4 -1 *(flat footed) *(invisible/what-not)
Damage(not lethal)
37.5 =3.5 +4 +2 +6 +19 +3
Did I get this all correct.
Heh... there is also the probability to hit which tends to mix those calculations up considerably.
Absolutely the point was to show average.
I don't know what an average AC would be for different challenge ratings..
and I didn't include damage reduction
Of which cold iron and silver are not possible with a quarterstaff.
nor did factor in that some monster would be immune to sub-duel damage.
I just did it for fun...
I need a way to consistently get sneak attack from a flat footed opponent.
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Wow, you are awesome sir. although she wanted to have a high Dex
If she would like a DEX rogue, suggest that instead of a CRB staff, she fight with a pair of hanbos.
(Adventurer's Armory)
Hanbo (Simple, Light; d6 bludgeoning)
The hanbo is a staff less than a yard long, often carved to look like a walking stick.
Weapon Feature(s): monk, trip
-- They're light fighting-sticks with the Trip property, and you can place the Agile weapon enhancement on them as well as use Piranha strike.
Character build:
01 barb1 [urban](Ultimate Combat][Controlled Rage] Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike
02 rogu1 SA+1d6
03 rogu2 [Evasion][Weapon Training:Weapon Focus Hanbo], Extra Rage
04 rogu3 SA+2d6, DEX>>>
05 rogu4 [Uncanny Dodge][Combat Trick:Two Weapon Fighting]
06 cava1 [cockatrice]
07 cava2 [Dazzling Display], Shatter Defenses
08 rogu5 SA+3d6
09 rogu6 [Ninja Trick:Vanish]
The way it all works:
* Jack DEX into orbit; STR is never used once you have Agile weaponry.
* Urban barbarian can DEX-rage
* Damage output is mediocre to lousy until 8000gp for a +1/Agile weapon, so plan on having interesting things to do these levels.
* Fight "stick and shield" at low level to keep AC high.
Higher-level equipment: pair of +1/Agile/Furious hanbos, Agile/Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Note: you can do the same thing with a ninja. (Many players consider the ninja an overwhelmingly superior archetype; however they have one big weakness which doesn't manifest itself until well into the mid-levels: lack of Evasion is a PITA in a lower-HP class without innate healing ability -- a caster with Empowered area-of-effect spells can turn a hidden ninja into a smouldering grease-stain no matter how high the guy's DEX is just by half-damaging him several times.
@Mike Schneider:
Why do you pick up Ninja Trick: Vanish, when I don't see your build pick up and ki points?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't think it's a stellar idea to multiclass into classes that deepen a character's weak points. For example, taking three levels of martial classes that don't advance your Will save at all is probably not a great idea. A +2 Will save at 10th level? Ouch.
In fact for people who are just getting back into the game I wouldn't recommend multi-classing at all. It gives them a ton of obscure little class features to track, many of which are largely worthless or situational and they have to turn on. Doubly so with multi classing archetypes which adds a whole other level of complexity to understanding a class.
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Three levels in a martial class grant you a +1 will save.
Three levels of rogue grant you a +1 will save.
If your will save is going to suck, it's going to suck regardless. (A rogue PC's usual solution to this is to attempt to not be visible to an enemy caster, and to be a race which grants a bonus to saving throws.)
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Hanbo fighter with decent will saves yet with even more amplified grooviness:
01 monk1 [Flowing(Ultimate Combat)][Improved Reposition], Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike
02 monk2 [Evasion][Unbalancing Counter]
03 barb1 [Urban(Ultimate Combat)][Crowd Control][Controlled Rage], Extra Rage
-- This is the pre-build, slightly cheesy with an alignment shift from lawful to neutral at 3rd. More cheesy is barb at 1st for +2HP in the build, but requires two alignment shifts into and then back out of lawful. Since monk grants flurry, you no longer need TWF (unless you want I-TWF down the road); it also grants Evasion, meaning the one weakness of a ninja is eliminated.
04 ninj1 DEX>>>, SA+1d6
05 ninj2 [Ki Pool][Trick:Vanish], FEAT
06 ...etc.
Jack DEX into orbit, don't miss on your maneuver opps when people attack you -- and they are sneak-attack bait every time. What. Is. Not. To. Love?
Bad news mike no Piranha Strike as a first level monk.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Three levels in a martial class grant you a +1 will save.
Three levels of rogue grant you a +1 will save.
Three levels in two different martial classes = +0 Will save.
If your will save is going to suck, it's going to suck regardless. (A rogue PC's usual solution to this is to attempt to not be visible to an enemy caster, and to be a race which grants a bonus to saving throws.)
This is sort of like having a caster who dumps Con because he's not supposed to get near where stabby things happen right?
As Huey says Sometimes bad is bad.
I quite like the idea of a quarterstaff monk/rogue.
Not strictly by the rules, but an easy fix: Make a custom trait that gives her a unique masterwork quarterstaff that does 1d8 damage.
Can't have Flowing Monk with Barbarian either Flowing Monk must be of a Lawful Alignment Barbarian any Non Lawful. Only Martial Artist may dip with Barbarian.
Can't have Flowing Monk with Barbarian either Flowing Monk must be of a Lawful Alignment Barbarian any Non Lawful. Only Martial Artist may dip with Barbarian.
Unless you go monk first, because monks don't lose any abilities, just the ability to progress as a monk, for going non-lawful.
I quite like the idea of a quarterstaff monk/rogue.
It's basically what Little Jon is in Robin Hood.