I cannot believe people have not said it but:
Elves are Awesome - That's Probably Why There Are, Like, 17 Types
You left out winged elves.Let's....let's not even start on Forgotten Realms elves. Okay?Do tell. I know nothing of FR elves.Hiding to carry this OT
** spoiler omitted **
Nope, they were listed right after the wild elves.
*snip*In Pathfinder the negative levels are Permanent
Seems people were powergaming or over abusing the spell.. and Pathfinder fixed it... First time I've ever been Raised or Reincarnated
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
Damn... why doesn't Paizo put this Restoration spell in the Reincarnate spell description? I see it costs 1000 per casting (so that would be 2 castings) but it might have kept me from retiring so fast... although the DM would say there isn't a high level Priest to cast the spell yet (happened when we were 5th level)..
thanks for the heads up
Elves are cool... but the CON hit can really hurt... and infact cause you to FORCE Retire your character..
I had a 1/2 Elf 1st level Fighter/4th level Diviner(wizard) with a 11 CON killed in our Kingmaker campaign... reincarnated into an ELF..
Pathfinder Reincarnate = 2 Permanent Negative Levels (-10 Hitpoints) and I was changed into an ELF... so my CON went from a 11 to a 9... so another -5 hitpoints..
I think you got a bit stuffed there; the new physical mods replace what you had before, they don't stack.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated).Put it another way; if you'd been playing a dwarf who was reincarnated as a dwarf, you wouldn't have your Con go up.
My 1/2 Elf had the +2 to DEX....
so when I went from 1/2 Elf to Full Elf... I lost my -2 to Dex.. then gained a +2 back to Dex, +2 to INT, and a -2 to CON..
Dm ruled(with me agreeing) so no re-rolls for stats.. since he hated me being Reincarnated to begin with...
My original Stats were as 1/2 Elf Fighter/Diviner
STR 17
DEX 16+2(18)
CON 11
INT 17(18 after level 4)
WIS 11
CHR 15
Stats after Reincarnated to ELF
STR 17
DEX 18
CON 9
INT 20
WIS 11
CHR 15
I lost the physical Racial stuff... which would be the resist charm... but the Elves get that...
I lost the Elf Blood(1/2 Elves) but get that since Elves get that...
I lost the Keen Sinces (1/2 Elves) but Elves get that..
I no longer get the Multitalented (choose 2 favored classes)....which I used for skills... which sucks because I have a -2 to all attacks, damage, skills, feats, everything.
Elves get weapon Familiarity.. but I get this already through my Class ability.. but not so sure about the weapons with "Elven" in it... since I consider that a Mental thing.. .not a physical thing..
I was a Fighter 1,Diviner 4 that could cast 2nd level spells at 3rd level casting (had the magical talent trait..
My backup was a Dwarf Oracle of Battle that ran into a Wight and lost another 2 levels (Oracles have horrible Fort saves) that became permanent... had to retire that character also..
Kingmaker campaign has become very deadly lately... our DM had Deadly DIce.. plus at first our group of 4 adventureres were all multiclassed with no healer..
Now I play a 6th level Paladin with a Sword and Board AC 27... I can make FORT Saves now... and actually the DM (who still hits me every combat) but misses alot on me..
When our party gets high enough level to get Restoration spells casted.. I'll make the now NPCs characters do it... but otherwise my gimped characters were too much of a liability to the party... which unfortunately does take some of the fun and challenge..
sometimes the rules are too strict... but as a former DM.. you can't let things like Energy drain not be bad.. or say to the Player.. go ahead and reroll your save...
let the dice fall where they may
My 1/2 Elf had the +2 to DEX....
so when I went from 1/2 Elf to Full Elf... I lost my -2 to Dex.. then gained a +2 back to Dex, +2 to INT, and a -2 to CON..
Dm ruled(with me agreeing) so no re-rolls for stats.. since he hated me being Reincarnated to begin with...
My original Stats were as 1/2 Elf Fighter/Diviner
Um... not quite:
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
It doesn't affect mental stats only the physical ones -- so your half elf lost his +2 bonus to Dex and then gains a +2 bonus to dex and takes a -2 penatly to Con but doesn't gain the bonus to intelligence.
My 1/2 Elf had the +2 to DEX....
so when I went from 1/2 Elf to Full Elf... I lost my -2 to Dex.. then gained a +2 back to Dex, +2 to INT, and a -2 to CON..
Dm ruled(with me agreeing) so no re-rolls for stats.. since he hated me being Reincarnated to begin with...
My original Stats were as 1/2 Elf Fighter/Diviner
Um... not quite:
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.It doesn't affect mental stats only the physical ones -- so your half elf lost his +2 bonus to Dex and then gains a +2 bonus to dex and takes a -2 penatly to Con but doesn't gain the bonus to intelligence.
Whoops... looks like we screwed up again... yah.. you dont get the INT (or any Mental stat)..
Basically it was a long gaming session... and the last thing was the reincarnate thing... I was forced to retire basically by next week...
It was the hitpoints that really screwed me...
Either way.. it was interesting to see a character basically increase his lifespan by 10 fold
No problem -- I kind of figured that if the Int boost didn't help enough in the first place not having it wasn't going to make the problem better either!
Just wanted to be sure you were aware for future reference.
I am just waiting for the opportunity to throw my venerable four winds monk at a party and watch them cut him down... just to have him come back for vengeance next week in a new improved and younger body!
I removed a post and a reply to it. PG-13, please.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=762
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Elf
Reminded of the pf drow campaign I played in, was a human Taldorian cavalier. Anyway, so we are having to help and save the elves (as it would turn out, again and again), and we are at this large battle. So my cavalier asks a leader:
Taldorian: I see your skirmishers, where are your cavalry and heavy infantry? We could really use them to secure the field, flank, push forward etc.
Elf: we don't have any.
Taldorian: you don't have any?
Elf: we use our fine archers in battle. There are some wizards and clerics in the back lines.
Taldorian: but the Drow have skirmishers too, if you had the counter to their skirmishers...
Elf: we do not.
Taldorian: where are your mercenaries?
Elf: *silence* you are our mercenaries.
Taldorian: what! That is it? You elves are morons you know nothing about war. Cavalry or heavy infantry can counter archers, decide the battle, and prevent it lasting all day *rant rant rant*
These elves are nuts, it is like they want to lose. Too good to use horses, or heavily armed troops, this is madness, they are living in the dark ages!
DM: stop your rambling.
And thus began a very long and slow taking of the field and the dug in drow. The elven casualties were high. Some drow were able to retreat, since the advance was slow. Afterwards I wish we had fought with the drow, because with monsters, hirelings and the like, they had more diversified troops and greater strengths.
As other have said, mechanically, not much(compared to the human at least)... Fluff wise, a whole hell of a lot. However, I find elves are a good way to break up preconceived notions of what a class or race should be, and makes it much more interesting for the table...
Yoggargh Treefury, elven barbarian/fighter, hailing from Kyonin of all places. His family and friends TRIED to school him in classical elven warfare.... But no, he was just too pissed off at everything and their crimes against nature, and gave into his rage. Foes feared him as much as close rage as they did afar, with his extremely dense composite longbow that not even Hogarth, the dwarven fighter could make full usage of, or that wicked elven curve blade that could slice an orc in twain! His first name has long since been forgotten, as his compatriots simply nick named him by the sound of his rage.
Like it Artemis, yes, another different elven character would be a sorcerer, who rejected the scholarly conventions of Kyonin in favour of something more natural, usable more often, but with far less prestige. Rig him up to be an anti-wizard, and head back home for duels during down-time.
Course, we can always love an elf that kills elves.
Yoggargh!
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Elf Bard, Dex 18, Reactionary, Warrior of Old, Aspect of the Beast (Wild Instinct), Improved Initiative.
hmm, I have about +14 for Initiative, right?
This kind of Elf Bard always start first, so all my allies can have my bonus at the start of the combat. Or before combat I can use some good spells for help my allies. Use sing, so I can also use long or short bow while performance. Lingering Performance and Discordant Voice, will help always. Maybe Arcane Archer, so you can destroy undead without much problems.
You can make the combo also for rouge. Start first, Weapon Finesse and go with yours Sneak Attack.
Or you can make a gay male Elf, barbarian, with all feats for throw objects. Put him near the kitchen for have some good dishes near his hands, and let the rage do the rest *D!
p.s.: sorry for my bad English ><!
Elf Bard, Dex 18, Reactionary, Warrior of Old, Aspect of the Beast (Wild Instinct), Improved Initiative.
Aspect of the Beast -- how are you qualifying?
Besides my diviner still goes before you with his +1/2 level bonus on initiative checks.
The tactician fighter elf probably will too with his bonus on initiative at level 2 of +1+1/4 levels, and that's ignoring the monk archetypes that do the same.
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Elves are the best arcane archers.
Kidding aside, elves are the better witches, I had to decide between optimizing and fun when I chose human over elf.
p.s. I don't like elves, because every new female player I met wanted to play an elvish bard. Not one woman said : "argh, I take a beardy dwarf over those whimps anytime".
sorry for resurrecting this thread but I can now say I have seen a new female player say she wanted a Dwarven Cleric. oddly enough in real life she is very elfish.
Witches that use the slumber hex.
pros:
+1 dc to divination and sleep like spells or abilities.
+2 to overcome SR
+2 to identify magic items
+2 perception
low light vision
Longer life span
Elf
cons:
-2 con
Noo, smurf this evil thread. Smurf it straight to the abyss!
Elves make ballin' alchemists. Dex and Int, you want it, they got it. Not to mention, you could have a character that starts proficient with Elven Curve Blades. That's a fun weapon.
Gather, brother smurfs!
If you ever plan on casting a spell that is affected by Spell Resistance, they are a great choice. If it weren't for the stupidly overpowered human racial favored class alternatives, they'd be the best choice hands down.
Personally I hate ALL favored class alternatives because they are restricted by race. If I were to ever run all races would have access to all alternate favored class bonuses.
Yes I would tweak the abilities of the half-elf and human to not make humans nearly to completely useless.
Elves give you martial weapon proficiencies. It is a good thing for some builds, and it would otherwise cost you a feat or a level of say, fighter.
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.
Who pigeon holes their character because of racial culture?
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.Who pigeon holes their character because of racial culture?
Smurfs
I find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.Who pigeon holes their character because of racial culture?
I know right? I've come up with 3 drastically different Elf characters.
One was a quiet, contemplative Barbarian that grew up with a nomadic tribe of Elves (it was my first character. It was alright, but by no means optimized). I was trying to play it as an anti-social, quite type, who was holding in rage until the right moments, almost like a Monk/Barbarian. But I was still type-cast as a generic barbarian, only "prissy", so that got old fast.
Then I made an adopted Elf that became an alchemist. His main inspiration was Professor Frink from the Simpsons. He'd be OCD, ADD, and his high initiative and reflex would represent how twitchy and jumpy he is while he's panicking about danger. He's a scientist who doesn't REALLY want to be there, but who is super over-eager to test out his bombs and concoctions.
Then I made a Witch who would be from the same tribe as the barbarian. But because of her strange powers and connection to an Insanity Patron, she was politely asked to leave at a young age. So she went out into civilization to absorb all the knowledge she could. She worked hard and tried to get published, but mainstream magic users didn't take her very seriously. Taking it all in stride (since she's not 100% right in the head), she took up adventuring with a a creepy smile on her face.
There's a lot of spin you can put on any race, especially when you factor in religion, region, social class, and the character's unique personality.
SmurfsI find elves to be boring. If you play Human you have lots of flavor as you have so many different cultures to pick from. If you play an elf you are just an elf. Same goes for the other races. At least Human and Half Human have cultural background to make things interesting. No real game effect but I can visualize my character better. That's why I play humans and why most other do as well.Who pigeon holes their character because of racial culture?
They always be smurfing things up, god smurf it.
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But what good si a Smurf to a player? Do they get racial boons that help them to be better then humans or dwarves or elves in anything? Nah, I don't think they can hold up. Their cousins make great (ok, little) barbarians, though...
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... The "wood elf" archetype has somewhat fallen to the side - you can't tell me a tribe of pseudo-fey that spend millenia in the deep woods with little technology or formal education would have a penalty to constitution or a bonus to intelligence ;) ...
If you're smart enough you don't have to be tough. :-)
^^More like when you're fast you don't have to be tough. There's lots of animals in the wild that rely more on speed then toughness. That plus their elven perception makes them seem like they'd fit perfectly in the wild.
As for the intelligence, if you actually make a class that would have come from the wild (like a barbarian or a ranger), you're intelligence would get a +2, but you're still not going to pump it into the stratosphere. And to explain why they're smarter then the average bear, you could say that their wise, mystical leaders saw fit to keep some knowledge around. Not to mention you pick up a thing or two when you're 100 years old.
That's why I love that you can drop Elven Magic for Wood Craft if you're not a spell flinger.
... The "wood elf" archetype has somewhat fallen to the side - you can't tell me a tribe of pseudo-fey that spend millenia in the deep woods with little technology or formal education would have a penalty to constitution or a bonus to intelligence ;) ...If you're smart enough you don't have to be tough. :-)
Hey, if you are going to live in harmony with nature, you're also living in harmony with all the bugs, lice, ticks, and so on. ;-) The modifiers make some sense for the towers-and-togas elves, but not for the sylvan fey-like creatures that live much more primitive lives when compared to humans.
I think either wisdom or charisma might make more sense for the more forest-oriented elves than intelligence (the gnomes get a charisma bonus, for crying out loud), but imo that's for homebrews or future MMs that might introduce racial variants.
... The "wood elf" archetype has somewhat fallen to the side - you can't tell me a tribe of pseudo-fey that spend millenia in the deep woods with little technology or formal education would have a penalty to constitution or a bonus to intelligence ;) ...If you're smart enough you don't have to be tough. :-)Hey, if you are going to live in harmony with nature, you're also living in harmony with all the bugs, lice, ticks, and so on. ;-) The modifiers make some sense for the towers-and-togas elves, but not for the sylvan fey-like creatures that live much more primitive lives when compared to humans.
I think either wisdom or charisma might make more sense for the more forest-oriented elves than intelligence (the gnomes get a charisma bonus, for crying out loud), but imo that's for homebrews or future MMs that might introduce racial variants.
Being ignored saddens me :'(. However, I wouldn't object to being able to replace Int with Wis if I wanted to.
BUUUT, I'd also like to point out that uncivilized humans still use their intelligence to their advantage over the natural world. They can still CRAFT (Int) weapons, armor, and shelter. Plus, you can also use you're noggin to avoid being overrun with bugs, lice, and ticks.
And it's your class that has a lot more to do with your saves (which represents the kind of toughness you're talking about). An elf will always have one higher reflex and one less fortitude then another race with the same stats/class. Kind of splitting hairs if you think about it.