Finally we have one other major problem -- the tried and true Chinese massed charge. Wave after wave of human bodies until your machine gun (aka wizard) melts, or runs out of ammunition. Used for longer than we have recorded history.
Besides at best a level 8 PC grade wizard will have for Intelligence is a 26 (20 starting +2 from levels +4 from an item).
That gives him:
7 First level spells
6 Second level spells
6 Third level spells
5 Fourth level spells
Lets assume Stoneskin, Mage Armor, False Life, and Displacement are on his list of "I don't want to die today" spells.
That leaves him:
6 first level, 5 second level, 5 third level and 4 fourth level spells.
Meaning he has 20 rounds of combat before he's down to cantrips and looking like a high level commoner. Or as I like to call it, about as much time as a vehicle mounted machine gun has in combat at continuous fire: 2 minutes.
And that's PC grade.
Assuming elite array stats and NPC wealth he is now down to an Int of 21 and 17 spells in combat.
If he's simply a regular NPC with the non elite array and standard NPC wealth he's down to a 19 Int and 16 spells in combat.
Those are the 'at most' levels too -- your 'regular joe wizard' is looking at just over a minute and a half until he blows through all his spells.
You mean the space currently covered by a roof of shields?
You can't.
Creatures are soft cover. they do not block line of sight.
You cannot block another creatures space with a tower shield, only your own.
So if row 1 has the shields set to block "front" there's nothing protecting their heads from above.
Also that basically requires not moving the entire fight.
You mean the space currently covered by a roof of shields?
You can't.
Creatures are soft cover. they do not block line of sight.
You cannot block another creatures space with a tower shield, only your own.
So if row 1 has the shields set to block "front" there's nothing protecting their heads from above.
Also that basically requires not moving the entire fight.
Except line 2 with the shield wall feat right? The one you apparently forgot about? All they got to do is get the wizard to fire -- once he does that the archers will pin him to the ground. Avoiding that he's still only has 17 spells total and hasn't really managed anything of consequence.
In fact currently only 1/3 of the troops will have to have a tower shield at all, due to the way the shield wall feat works.
Which means the rest can simply ready action to fire on the wizard.
You mean the space currently covered by a roof of shields?
You can't.
Creatures are soft cover. they do not block line of sight.
You cannot block another creatures space with a tower shield, only your own.
So if row 1 has the shields set to block "front" there's nothing protecting their heads from above.
Also that basically requires not moving the entire fight.
I'm not going to keep linking the roman Tetsudo. Also Abraham solved the cover issue with one feat.
The rear is a good point to attack as they can only cover four sides in some of those formations. But the trick is
And it's not that difficult, just slow. Move, ready action, move, ready action. Repeat until engaged in melee. It's not a formation built for speed.
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Before you can get too deep into how magic effects warfare, you need a model for how common magic is. This is probably most easily done by figuring out the distribution of levels within a population.
I usually figure that for every 2 first level people, there is 1 second level person. Each higher level has half as many people than the last. This has the advantage that 75% of your population will be 3rd level or below. You only end up with 1 in a million 20th level characters.
Of course, next you have to determine what % of the population would be each class.
Even so, I suspect that the more magic you put in the world, the more modern it fights. Even simple spells like animal messenger can alter the way society works. It doesn't take that many high level wizards to create permanent gates, drastically increasing trade.
I already determined that with the right magic item, a high level wizard can build the pyramid of Giza in a day.
Except line 2 with the shield wall feat right? The one you apparently forgot about? All they got to do is get the wizard to fire -- once he does that the archers will pin him to the ground.
-What archers?
If an adjacent ally with this feat uses a tower shield to grant total cover, you also benefit if an attack targeting you passes through the edge of the shield (Core Rulebook 153).
Draw this out and remember three dimensions. You can be an archer or you can have a tower shield. You can't do both in the same space at the same time. If someone is 500 feet out (for a whopping spot check penalty) the wizard is not going to bother with the Guy holding the shield wall , he's going to hit the archers and there will be no one to return fire.
Avoiding that he's still only has 17 spells total and hasn't really managed anything of consequence.
One wand will take care of that easily.
In fact currently only 1/3 of the troops will have to have a tower shield at all, due to the way the shield wall feat works.
Nope
If an adjacent ally with this feat uses a tower shield to grant total cover, you also benefit if an attack targeting you passes through the edge of the shield (Core Rulebook 153)
The feat doesn't grant blanket cover , its only on one side, front back left right up (technically down) Row 2 blocking the "up" position wouldn't save row 1 because the fireball doesn't have to pass through the space over row 2's heads.
And it's not that difficult, just slow. Move, ready action, move, ready action. Repeat until engaged in melee. It's not a formation built for speed.
THe wizard readies an action to blast when you're moving and don't have the shield set. Before the fireball is actually launched mayby 1 archer in 20 will see him.
Which means the rest can simply ready action to fire on the wizard.
I'm not going to keep linking the roman Tetsudo. Also Abraham solved the cover issue with one feat.
And the Tetsudo, by RAW, has gaps.
The whole front row is succeptible to the fireball, as is the back row and the side rows. They can only cover one facing, so it's either 'up' or 'out'.
Similarly Abraham presumes these people have Feats to burn... they only have A singular feat to burn, so that could be a hard sell.
I would also like to heavily discount this 'mages as X percent of the population' theory - this is warfare, not a walk to the shop. By the nature of what is taking place you will see a higher concentration of casting classes as they will have been deliberately sought.
You don't see too many Tanks driving down the Interstate, yet imagine the surprise on the faces of the locals on day 1 of Desert Storm when whole formations of them tore across the desert.
My goodness, BNW and I are agreeing one something again. We must be wrong.
Resist energy, Communal is also a 3rd level spell.
Human warriors would have 2 feats at first level.
Resist energy, Communal is also a 3rd level spell.
Human warriors would have 2 feats at first level.
Awesome.
My 2nd level Stone Call is going to hit an area three times the size of the Fireball though, and I can just move right past the blast v cover shennanigans.
And it only takes a L3 casty.
A few random thoughts:
1. Castles and other fortifications would likely have some sort of magical warding in many cases as added defense against hostile magic and creatures that can simply bypass or go through walls.
2. In a world with dragons, griffons, pegasi, etc, castles would also likely have covered battlements/towers and defenses specifically designed to ward off aerial attacks. Someone brought up ventilation etc, and I agree in our own world it would be a problem... but presumably in a world that has always had these flying menaces, innovations in plumbing, airflow, etc would likely have been invented.
3. Pathfinder is a high magic setting, but PC type heroes are still a rarity, and wizards would be nowhere near as common as some guy who can pick up and use a sword. Someone else mentioned wizards or other spell casters under heavy protection from meat shields. I agree.
4. Formations and tactics would likely be different as well, more loose formations as opposed to tight shield walls (beautiful fireball targets). Unless of course said shields were magically warded in some way.
5. The possibilities are endless, and there are numerous fantasy novels which have addressed the prospect of warfare which includes spells being cast left and right, magical healing, and the inclusion of supernatural creatures in the ranks.
Resist energy, Communal is also a 3rd level spell.
Human warriors would have 2 feats at first level.Awesome.
My 2nd level Stone Call is going to hit an area three times the size of the Fireball though, and I can just move right past the blast v cover shennanigans.
And it only takes a L3 casty.
That spell also requires that the wizard be a lot closer (100ft, +10 ft/caster level). That spell deals an average of 7 damage, the average 1st level warrior has 7 hp (10 with toughness). I counter with a 3rd level cleric with channel energy.
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Another thought. If aerial attacks are a common threat, underground bunkers would be more secure than castles. Might explain why there are so many dungeon complexes around.
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The commoners with slings? Sorry you said you were taking an army with the wizard -- either do it or go home. You don't just get to cherry pick one unit son and then call it a day. You have the castle to take, the siege weapons to silence, the field troops to handle, the sappers to stop, the flying snipers on both sides to contend with and that's on a slow day.
You got all of 1 wand and 17 spells of your own, and that wand has to last you the war, not just this battle. You think they are going to blow 750 gp on you per battle/week/month?
I can equip 10 troops with tower shields and heavy infantry armor for that price and still have 50 gold left over, and that's if I like them. Otherwise I'll still simply stick to the method that's older than time and hit you with waves of peasants. Sure you'll kill some... but the rest will get to you and then you've got problems.
1,000 peasants are going to hit 50 times -- lose half of that to the displacement means you'll be looking at 25 hits a round, dealing about 5 damage each meaning 125 points of damage -- your stoneskin ate 80 points of that before dropping leaving you with 45 points of damage to swallow -- good thing that false life saved you from about 16 points of that, leaving you with only 29 points of damage this round... but what are you going to do next round?
What's worse is the fact your stone call on average didn't kill anyone. It averages 7 points of damage, with the foot soldier (a level 1 warrior) having 8 points, and that's the smallest total I got -- ironically the farmers have 10 hp each.
And that's not even the most brutal parts of this exercise -- I still have plenty of regular weapons of war to bring to this field.
If you place the fireball where it will get the maximum targets it's not going to get to the outside edges without passing through a shield on it's way to the guys thereby providing them cover.
Stone call is a bit harder but then if you have 1 guy that can id the spell everyone will not to cover up instead of out -- after all it only drops down.
So my 2d6 (no save) has an almost 60% chance of outright killing every dude in your formation in one hit (hp 7), if they have 8 hp its a 47% guaranteed kill. Its a 2nd level spell. You dont know where it came from or who cast it necessarily. indeed I'd be inclined to throw it at you at the last possible second to add shock and awe to a charge against your (now shattered) shield wall.
The other point is I dont even really need that many wizards, there's a bunch of classes can Stone Call. Hell I reckon we could even make a few select limited use items that have it as an effect nice and cheap.
So lets rewind.
All yous soldiers are humans, and their feats were toughness (which will mean they are all badly injured) and the Teamwork feat (which doesn't help them).
And the Tetsudo, by RAW, has gaps.
Then make it a big thing of wood they hold above their heads. Make it wet if you're worried about fire. If gaps are the issue you close them. See? I can get by silly raw with an equally silly solution. :P
I think all you've really proven is that the rules for adventuring do not suit mass combat at all.
One more thing about Stone call. It's a cylinder. Cylinders shoot down, not out.
And in the end I'm still just going to drop a bunch of caltrops from my catapults. I'm not wasting gold on an easily murdered and tired out wizard.
And one more thing for all the people calling for loose formations. That is an ok solution for spellcasters but a poor solution against cavalry. A bunch of heavy warhorses love it when you spread the line.
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So my 2d6 (no save) has an almost 60% chance of outright killing every dude in your formation in one hit (hp 7), if they have 8 hp its a 47% guaranteed kill. Its a 2nd level spell. You dont know where it came from or who cast it necessarily. indeed I'd be inclined to throw it at you at the last possible second to add shock and awe to a charge against your (now shattered) shield wall.
The other point is I dont even really need that many wizards, there's a bunch of classes can Stone Call. Hell I reckon we could even make a few select limited use items that have it as an effect nice and cheap.
So lets rewind.
All yous soldiers are humans, and their feats were toughness (which will mean they are all badly injured) and the Teamwork feat (which doesn't help them).
It has no chance to kill them, it would require 21 points of damage to kill them (negative con score) without toughness, 24 with. The third level cleric's channel energy heals the same amount of damage your spell deals.
Otherwise I'll still simply stick to the method that's older than time and hit you with waves of peasants. Sure you'll kill some... but the rest will get to you and then you've got problems.
Except that you're a general leading a battle, not someone with brain washed automatons. "you'll run out of spells before i run out of bodies" is a great plan when you're the general. if you're one of those bodies.. not so much.
You try that on a battlefield and they'll run away at best, and reinvent the word frag into something nastier when its done with a thoqua at worst.
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No -- no, no.
Sorry shifty if you keep trying to bully the rules here you aren't worth talking too.
First off if you are waiting to the last second it's too late -- we're in your lines mixing it up, you'll hit your own people.
Secondly if you have level 3~8 casters I've got level 3~8 non-casters, and more of them -- at a 97~99 to 1 ratio in fact.
Also if you've got enough to waste on magic items -- again I got it too. And you didn't outright kill anyone.
In fact you barely get them to incapacitated on average, and gee look at the cleric in the middle, all your work undone already.
Face it your a squishy machine gun that's more expensive and with less ammunition.
What's more you're assuming your the only one on the field.
Why don't you go learn some actual combat tactics and methods? It'll help you realize why single power units are crap, compared to numbers.
This was in response to a post in the other thread from Abraham Spalding regarding wizards and warfare. It really belongs here.
The relative rarity of spellcasters is immaterial. A functioning military organization that is any thing more than rough militia would logically go out of it's way to secure spellcasting units. A nation that possesd any level of magical practitioners would sensibly require some form of compulsory service. It would stand to reason that talented recruits would be selected for state sponsored military magical training. The Magus class lends itself to this almost by design. The crafting rules in PF make the creation of fireball wands a relatively inexpensive form of force multiplier.
That castles were largely made of wood is not an advantage in a world of fireballs and scorching rays. A defensive structure is not made obsolete by magic but it's design would be radically altered. Hellknights built a structure inside of a mountain, dumb on our own world since caves made it easy to cut off airflow, not so where portals to the plane of air can be erected. Magically reinforced masonry and structural supports would be common in fortification design, providing funding is available. Dungeon complexes are a silly notion of RPGs but not so much when you realize that they are far more secure from magical assault than an aboveground structure.
Flying creatures are rare admittedly. However their rarity is determined by food availability more than anything else. What is the life cycle of a griffon? I'd wager less than 20 years. If that's true then an organized breeding program could field a large flying force relatively quickly. Feeding a force of trained griffons would be expensive but hardly cost prohibitive. The advantage of aerial scouts who exceed the relative CR of the standard military unit is enormous. The Sable Company of Korvosa is elite, expensive and worth every penny to it's government. If trained griffons were mounted by war wizards who could extend the benefits of Mage Armor and...
Love this post. What I was thinking basically, but said with more style and flair!
1,000 peasants are going to hit 50 times
I agree with you in principle, a few wizards aren't enough to defeat mass troops.
But you are forgetting that most ancient battles were won by more experienced troops. There are countless examples in history of large amounts of levy troops being broken and fleeing in the face of better disciplined troops. That's why the Roman legions did so well for so long. The Roman empire fell not to superior armies, but from legions turning against legions.
I would stake a hundred legionaries over the thousand peasants who will break and flee in the face of a single fireball.
Otherwise I'll still simply stick to the method that's older than time and hit you with waves of peasants. Sure you'll kill some... but the rest will get to you and then you've got problems.
Except that you're a general leading a battle, not someone with brain washed automatons. "you'll run out of spells before i run out of bodies" is a great plan when you're the general. if you're one of those bodies.. not so much.
You try that on a battlefield and they'll run away at best, and reinvent the word frag into something nastier when its done with a thoqua at worst.
Of course they will -- because that's what they've done through history right?
Oh wait... wrong.
Of course they will -- because that's what they've done through history right?
Its a VERY common event. Especially with peasant militias and generals who throw their troops into a meat grinder against forces they don't understand. Would you like a list? You can start with the first three quarters of George Washington's career.
Saying wrong with a flippant tone doesn't make it so.
Why does one side get mages but the other not? Were I a caster in such a situation, I'd be wary of using my magic. Doesn't matter if they can't pinpoint my exact location, they can get it down to 100-ish feet. That's a lot of risk, especially since you're talking about spells with a 40' splash. Wouldn't it make more sense to watch the footmen slug it out and use your spells against their mages?
I've been using a cleric in my counter points, does that count?
On a side note, I'm glade this has not degenerated into a flame war yet. It's been fun.
I think in the end whether or not you can ruin mass combat or not with 1st-2nd level spells is irrelevant.
I still maintain my original point that wizards would rarely be used in such a conflict. Even if a tetsudo isn't "perfect" it's only one trick in what will undoubtedly be an ingenious number of tricks commanders might deploy against magic. Even something so simple as terrain choice would take such things into account.
It has no chance to kill them, it would require 21 points of damage to kill them (negative con score) without toughness, 24 with. The third level cleric's channel energy heals the same amount of damage your spell deals.
Ok so the 7/8 hp guys get hit with the blast and fall down. The one guy standing (the Cleric) now gets peppered with the pile or archers/slingers that so many posters seem to have waiting around. Or he channels a 30' radius and gets HALF the soldiers back awake. They are all prone. What happens now when they get charged on? Oh they all get massacred.
Go measure out a 40' radius blast, then overlay your 30' heal.
Pi x Radius squared on a Channel - hits 2827 feet of friendlies.
Pi x Radius squared on a Stone call - hits 5026 feet of your guys.
We dont need to get in and 'mix it up', your guys are all stading in a square and either walking into my range, OR my guys are in a group moving on your stationary shield wall and will charge after the blast.
Now Abraham I really resent the call about Bullying the rules, and I am quite disappointed you have resorted to cheap name calling rather than sticking to a friendly debate on rules. It is tacky and uncalled for and theres no 'bullying', the rules are pretty clear and you just don't seem to want to apply them. I expected better than cheap and tawdry tactics to try derail debate from you.
Shame Abraham, shame.
Also something else to consider:
A cannon costs 6,000 gp, deals 6d6 damage, and now we are loading it with this:
Blast Shot: Instead of a single hard ball, this ammunition is a bundle of large pellets, balls, or pieces of scrap metal, propelled a short distance by black powder and attacking all creatures and objects within an area. Both cannons and fiend’s mouth cannons can fire this kind of ammunition. When such a siege engine fires this ammunition, it hits every creature and object within a 30-foot-cone burst. The siege engine makes attack rolls against each creature and unattended object in the burst. It must miss every creature or target to misfire, and a misfire generates the normal effect. It deals its normal damage on a hit, but does not ignore the hardness of objects.
At 30 gp a shot.
The wand of stone call is 90 gp a shot and 4,500 total. The cannon hits cost effectiveness in 100 shots or 2 wands, after which it's more effective to use.
I think in the end whether or not you can ruin mass combat or not with 1st-2nd level spells is irrelevant.
I think the point is that the sheer nature and presence of magic means that there is a strong likelihood that the battlespace will be more reminiscent of current (last hundred odd years) than the old skool fighting we think of when someone says 'medieval'.
This is particularly evident at 'party level' where low level players migth be encountering platoon sized formations, who might not want to get mashed by the first fireball. Surely the Orcy shamans would have worded up their guys that the man in the pointy hat coming into their lands is a casty, and that he will probably try nail them if they stay too close and massed.
That sort of thinking would no doubt have ramifications up the line too.
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This is a great thought experiment. I think its limited by the fact paizo havent released a mass combat book though.
I suspect armies would have items of mass protection specifically crafted for them (standards for example, as was already mentioned).
I also suspect raising and training armies will allow for certain teamwork feats to be used with units despite them only being warriors.
You could also deal with wizards etc by using skirmishing units, fast moving mounted units or stealthy units work for this. As long as they range befoe the main army they work as an effective screen.
Eberron had a book that specifically dealt with combat in a world rife with magic. It assumed high level casters where rare though. A good read (if I could only remember the name of it).
In essence, what I'm suggesting is that mass combats will eventually have their own rules and specialized equipment that may work outside the boudaries that the current rules specify. The base rules are effectively skirmish rules, even at high levels.
Cheers
Like most firearms, i can't see the cannon being developed in a world of wizards. Where exactly are you going to keep the powder for the cannon ?
Like most firearms, i can't see the cannon being developed in a world of wizards. Where exactly are you going to keep the powder for the cannon ?
...and why a wand? I dont need 50 charges, a couple of scrolls per casty would work just fine.
Now Abraham I really resent the call about Bullying the rules, and I am quite disappointed you have resorted to cheap name calling rather than sticking to a friendly debate on rules. It is tacky and uncalled for and theres no 'bullying', the rules are pretty clear and you just don't seem to want to apply them. I expected better than cheap and tawdry tactics to try derail debate from you.
Shame Abraham, shame.
Look if you are going to tell me what's happening all the time you are doing just that -- either debate, or don't. Don't presume to lecture.
You do and there is no conversation.
You have multiple times dictated outcomes without any real proof -- assuming control of the debate and acting as if there is no way your outcome isn't right. You have mistaken position and opinion for fact.
Of course I should have known not to join the thread -- it always comes down to, "no my infinity +1 wizard does 'x' and there is no valid military tactic that has been around for centuries that could possibly stop it -- also he has all this and you only have level 1 fighters and only a unit."
If you actually want to talk about magic in the military go to my first post in the thread and think on it some.
The problem is you are still wanting to apply striker/skirmisher tactics to a battle field -- it doesn't work.
It never has even with each advancement in military technology, and magic -- especially the limited magic of pathfinder, isn't any different than all that technology.
In fact in many ways its even more limited. Spells like like fog cloud are going to be cast on the enemy -- with which he can't target, he's going to gust of wind -- at which point he announces his presence since he only cleared his area, which will result in incoming fire -- he wind walls, now his archers have issues, and the other side counters with a siege blast, or counter magic.
It all ends up in the exact same place.
Like most firearms, i can't see the cannon being developed in a world of wizards. Where exactly are you going to keep the powder for the cannon ?...and why a wand? I dont need 50 charges, a couple of scrolls per casty would work just fine.
Heh. You can glue them to the backs of the pikemen marching in front of the wizard.
Like most firearms, i can't see the cannon being developed in a world of wizards. Where exactly are you going to keep the powder for the cannon ?...and why a wand? I dont need 50 charges, a couple of scrolls per casty would work just fine.
More cost. But I agree scrolls would be better over all. Personally I wouldn't put the casters on the field. If something kills the casters (and it will at level 3 those hp are still low) you're out of magic. Put them on the back lines and train officers in UMD with the dangerously curios trait and some charisma. Assuming level 5~7 officers with a charisma of 12~14 we would then be looking at a +10~13 on the check, which could be augmented.
As to powder development:
Wizards -- of course. Because wizards aren't limited, and there's millions of them all around. They couldn't want to spend their abilities on any other than setting powder on fire, and the powder is of course going to be out in the open instead of under any of the cover we've develop throughout the years precisely for that reason.
It's no more a danger than it already is.
n fact in many ways its even more limited. Spells like like fog cloud are going to be cast on the enemy -- with which he can't target, he's going to gust of wind
You can lob AOE spells into areas you can't see as long as you still have line of effect.
Fog cloud would make it hard, if not impossible for the archers to hit the wizard , whereas the wizard can lob fireballs into or out of the fog with little loss of effectiveness.
First off, if we assume shield wall and toughness (you did further up), 10 hp per soldier (7 was just HD + con mod). Meaning you would have to get an 11 or a 12 to knock anyone unconscious (an 8.32%). With heroic NPC stats, (I've been using basic for my warriors) you could use your spell a maximum of 4 times (wizard/3 gives a base of 1, +1 for high int, +1 for conjurer, +1 for arcane bond). My cleric can use channel energy 4-7 times.
I think in the end whether or not you can ruin mass combat or not with 1st-2nd level spells is irrelevant.I think the point is that the sheer nature and presence of magic means that there is a strong likelihood that the battlespace will be more reminiscent of current (last hundred odd years) than the old skool fighting we think of when someone says 'medieval'.
This is particularly evident at 'party level' where low level players migth be encountering platoon sized formations, who might not want to get mashed by the first fireball. Surely the Orcy shamans would have worded up their guys that the man in the pointy hat coming into their lands is a casty, and that he will probably try nail them if they stay too close and massed.
That sort of thinking would no doubt have ramifications up the line too.
Well I did explain how in some ways it would be very much like modern combat. But not in the way you're thinking. There'd be much more emphasis on the non mass battle part of warfare. In the scenarios I presented wizards aren't risking their neck to a barrage of missile fire or worse, an opposing wizard while when in the field. They're working behind the scenes. Why in the hell is a wizard going to bother stone calling a group of luckless soldiers when a catapult can do that job? A wizards smarter than that.
I think in the end whether or not you can ruin mass combat or not with 1st-2nd level spells is irrelevant.I think the point is that the sheer nature and presence of magic means that there is a strong likelihood that the battlespace will be more reminiscent of current (last hundred odd years) than the old skool fighting we think of when someone says 'medieval'.
This is particularly evident at 'party level' where low level players migth be encountering platoon sized formations, who might not want to get mashed by the first fireball. Surely the Orcy shamans would have worded up their guys that the man in the pointy hat coming into their lands is a casty, and that he will probably try nail them if they stay too close and massed.
That sort of thinking would no doubt have ramifications up the line too.
I can't disagree with this entirely.
n fact in many ways its even more limited. Spells like like fog cloud are going to be cast on the enemy -- with which he can't target, he's going to gust of wind
You can lob AOE spells into areas you can't see as long as you still have line of effect.
Fog cloud would make it hard, if not impossible for the archers to hit the wizard , whereas the wizard can lob fireballs into or out of the fog with little loss of effectiveness.
he's got to lob that spell in the right area -- he's no different than any other artillery piece or bomber -- if he places it wrong he risks hitting his own troops.
In a fireproof casing of some sort. Metal, most likely. If mages are coming into range of artillery pieces, they are likely going to be blown to bits.
The spot check to see the wizard at that range is almost impossible even if the wizard is wearing neon pink and dancing to mambo number 5.
Even then medieval artillery is not known for pinpoint accuracy. Aiming at an army, no problem. Aiming at a specific individual.. problem.
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The spot check to see the wizard at that range is almost impossible even if the wizard is wearing neon pink and dancing to mambo number 5.
Keep in mind this works both ways.
In a fireproof casing of some sort. Metal, most likely. If mages are coming into range of artillery pieces, they are likely going to be blown to bits.
The spot check to see the wizard at that range is almost impossible even if the wizard is wearing neon pink and dancing to mambo number 5.
Even then medieval artillery is not known for pinpoint accuracy. Aiming at an army, no problem. Aiming at a specific individual.. problem.
This of course plays against the wizard too -- spotting is going to be a pain. it's also going to be difficult to get into position.
And until now we've been assuming perfect precise targeting by the mage against enemies that are using formations that have never been used in history.
I think a lot of it will look more like ancient and modern combat than the massed peasant charges -- but those will certainly be used too.
But remember that wasn't even the majority of medieval combat, it's just the parts people like to remember -- like rough stone work castles it wasn't the reality but it is the current perception of the time.