Sunder. Oh look, you wasted all that cash.
One dispel magic which is more likely than not to fail at level 10, with a CL 16-20 casting of permanency. Check out what a melee brute with improved sunder can do to your weapon.
There are advantages and disadvantages to every choice. If the choice provides a good enough bonus, it is probably worth doing. In a few levels, when the frequent dispel magic starts kicking in, then you can switch to a wand of Greater Magic Fang. Until then, the most cost effective way to go about it is to simply get a permanent version cast by as high a caster as you can find.
People don't get Greater Magic Weapon applied with permanency because they can't. It isn't allowed with the permanency spell. Why? Because you can buy a +10 magic weapon already. You can't buy a +10 amulet of mighty fists. But you can get to +10 by stacking it with Greater Magic Fang. I wonder why? These two options seem to match up perfectly.
A +5 magic weapon is 50,000 gold. That is the comparative target here. If it gets dispelled 5 times, you basically break even over the life of your career. At higher levels, when the dispel checks are likely to succeed more often than not, you would switch to a wand or in a cheaper situation have an ally cast it on you, since your party will likely have a high level version of this buff available.
So yes, if five of my opponents choose to dispel it in the levels from about 8-15 and succeed, then yes, I break even with a 2-handed fighter on +5 weapon costs. For a 2-weapon fighter? 9-10 times to get that same effective bonus. So yes, it is far better in the long run for the monk to go after a couple of castings of this magic fang than go for a +5 amulet of mighty fists (100,000). Not to mention that the amulet of mighty fists can be stacked on top.
If we are discussing the core monk, we use all the options available to the core monk. This includes permanency. If your house game, and others house games don't allow this ability, which is available in the rules, then that is a problem with the GMs of those games, which don't apply to this thread.
Plenty of people do this. Just not usually ones sitting in a "why is the monk terrible thread". The people coming here are looking to see that the monk is terrible. A few of us see what the monk can actually do, but many choose not to.
The monk is a perfectly fine class. Could it use a boost? Sure, but it has the tools it needs to perform well in the game, as several posters have shown.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Ah yes, I apologize. It was mentioned this was a 3.5 table included on PRD site. Still, the community state any magic items under 4000 can be found in a small city (75% chance), this potion would apply (3000gp). You might have to visit 2 or 3 small cities, but it could easily be found.
I agree, AoMF does bypass more types of damage reduction, but the basic monk can already bypass everything but alignment (except lawful) based damage reduction at reasonable times. Also, the AoMF can stack with the GMF to make the character as effective as other characters that can get +10 weapons.
Remember, there are still many out there who don't want monks to have nice things :)
Sure, buddy. Sure.
Facts reach me just fine Marthkus. There is no need for the hostility.
Inversely, since those are just guidelines, why not just not include magic items. Those are variables that interfere with discussing the class. Or... we can accept what people have already stated and live with that. My GMs wouldn't let me use magic fang +5 and permanency together on my monks, personally.
Because magic items are of varying usefulness depending on class abilities. Have they done the math on the combination? Why would they not?
But it exists! So if I can order the creation of something else that exists, like a specific weapon with specific enhancements, I can do the same for a potion.
It will keep around well enough. Look at the monsters in the bestiary at this level, few have dispel magic, and most would likely cast it to stop the hindering effects of the spellcasters rather than the monk, since it does not shut the monk down.
The CL would be likely be 16, I paid for 20 on the sheet, I believe. 16 is enough to make it difficult for a level 10 encounter to take care of it. Sometimes weapons have to get replaced, and sometimes permanent enchantments have to get replaced. Its just part of the game. No worse than a +2 weapon getting destroyed at this level.
Medusa's Wrath is two attacks, not one.
(Number of attacks - 1) / (Number of attacks) Multiplied by the DPR gets you the effective DPR against the character using crane wing. Only 2 out of 3 possible attacks will do damage, so the average DPR is multiplied by 2/3.
I'm glad we have common ground somewhere. If we can come to an agreement on the fist enchantment I think we will be doing very well for the monk.
Also, are you including critical hits into your DPR calculations?
The spellcasting services rules cover it. All the rules are guidelines. We debate based on the rules presented. Every item availability discussion is based on DM fiat. Some like lots of items, some don't. In these discussions we go by the book, and the permanent magic fang is perfectly valid by the book. Maybe they made the potion while they were wandering through town, and are no longer available. The 3,000 GP potion of Greater Magic Fang +5 is available on the table of potions, this is an item discussion.
Actually, it is. I don't particularly like the influx of huge amounts of magic items in the world, but it is there by the rules. Go play a low magic game if you want low magic.
Then your DM is not playing by the core Pathfinder rules, and is house ruling that you cannot get this enchantment. I have shown you a simple solution to give a monk enchanted weapons, shown that it works via the math, and makes a monk easily competitive with other characters. I, and every DM I know allows this, because it is i in the core equipment rules and high level characters exist to challenge the high level foes in the world already. This is not a low magic world, super powered creatures and characters exist all over.
There is nothing ridiculous about it. Its in the core equipment rules.
A 20th level caster that is willing to make 600 gold for less than a minute of work? They seem to be out there making magic items at 1000 gp an hour, so why wouldn't they be willing to cast a spell for you a much greater payoff per time used?
The DC to to remove the spell is 31. You need to be at least a level 11 caster to have a 5% chance of removing the spell. Not worth the effort to try until you are about level 17-20 (when the cost of the enchantment is negligible). Plus, if a caster is casting dispel magic on me, he isn't stopping me from attacking, doing damage, or anything else.
When fighting with weapons the risk is sundering, same effect. When fighting with fists the risk is dispelling. Everyone can sunder, only a few people can dispel, and usually have better things to do anyway.
1. We already went over this up thread. If a 20th level caster is not available, we simply buy a potion or oil of Greater Magic Fang CL 20 and hire a caster (CL 11) for the permanency, which will likely cause him to remove the Wand of Invisibility and invest in some scrolls instead.
2. Being permanently large is a fine idea at this level, since most creatures you will be fighting in the bestiary will also be large.
3. Crane Wing Riposte works off of any attack that hits, not just the first one. It lowers incoming damage by (number of attacks - 1 / number of attacks), assuming all attacks are the same damage.
4. The DPR for it is simply a normal unarmed strike DPR, since we do not know how many attacks a monk will be taking each round. This is why it was not added directly into the calculations above. The probability gets a little tricky, so if we simply assume the monk gets hit at least once per round, we add an extra strike DPR and we are done. Your math assumes he cannot get hit by the second or third attack, and is incorrect. The probability of not getting hit by any of the three attacks is 10.5%. So multiply the base DPR 21.28*.895 = 19.0456.
5. The stunning fist hit chance is 20%, or the chance to hit with the first strike times the chance the fort save fails. Multiply this by the two unarmed strike DPR attacks nets you = 9.60925 DPR. My Medusa's strike math is correct.
Your numbers look close enough to the ones I'm getting, but you seem to be forgetting about the Ki Strike. With the additional Ki strike his DPR increases to 101.612 while using Crane Style.
6. Using power attack against the monk would likely net in a damage loss for the Giant, since he loses 1/3 of his attacks due to the riposte.
7. The DPR is good and he is useful outside of combat. His AC exceeds with the requested amount (24 or 23, can't remember exactly) as well.
8. I think you might be off slightly on the Monk's average damage. It is 2d8 + 13 + 1d6 Cold = 4.5x2 + 13 + 3.5 = 25.5.
I have taken the Flaming Fist monk and changed him up a little bit to be more in line with the goals of the exercise. Before, his usual AC was in the 30's and his DPR in the 70's and 80's. I have changed him with the AC and damage goals as listed below, as well as giving him some good stealth and scout utility. I also changed him to a frosty fist monk.
The goal in building a good unarmed monk is finding a use for your hands. For this build, I have used wands to make use of the character's hands. Since he can always carry a wand with him to start combat with without having to switch it out for a weapon, this gives him an advantage.
Character's need magic at higher levels to keep up, so we make our body a weapon with permanent magic. The Amulet of Mighty Fists is just gravy on top for a monk.
I set the DPR against a Fire Giant, AC 24 and Fort +14.
With Crane Style (This is most of the time, since it adds so much to the monk's defenses:
If he lowers his defenses and doesn't use Crane Style, these increase to:
Fire Giants DPR against the monk:
Here is the build:
Monk 10, servant of the Frosty Fist
"I serve Ice Cream Cones!"
LN Large Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Perception +17
HP 88.5 (9d8 + 8 + 20 + 10 + 10)
Stats assume fighting with Crane Style
AC 27 (+2 Dex, +6 Monk AC Bonus, +4 Armor, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge -1 Size, +4 fighting defensively)
Flatfooted 20 (+6 Monk AC Bonus, +4 Armor, +1 Deflection -1 Size)
Touch 23 (+2 Dex, +6 Monk AC Bonus, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge -1 Size, +4 fighting defensively)
CMD 31 (10 Base +7 BAB + 5 Str + +2 Dex + 1 Size +6 Monk AC Bonus)
Defensive abilities - Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte
Fort +11 (+7 Base + 3 Con + 1 Resistance)
Ref +10 (+7 Base + 2 Dex + 1 Resistance)
Will +12 (+7 Base + 4 Wis + 1 Resistance) +2 versus enchantment
Speed 60 ft.
Fly 60ft. (5 min/3 per day)
Base Flurry +8/+8/+3/+3
CMB +22 (+5 enhancement +10 Level, +5 Strength, +1 Size, +1 Weapon Focus), Grapple +24
Melee Unarmed Strike +20 (+7 BAB + 5 Strength + 5 Enhancement + 1 Weapon Focus - 1 Size +3 Luck) 3d6 + 13 + 1d6 Cold
Flurry +21/+21/+16/+16 w/ki (+21/+21/+21/+16/+16) 2d8 + 13 + 1d6 Cold
Fighting Style - Crane Style
Magical Equipment = 60,400gp
Leaving 1600 GP to spend on normal adventuring items, including weapons for a ranged attack.
There have been many posts comparing the monk to barbarian. The monk's fighting style is not the same as a barbarian. He does not use pounce to charge in at the enemy. Instead, he uses his first round to move into a position of annoyance for the enemy, blocking charges from his strongest enemies to his allies. He moves at 60 feet, as long as most charges, and casts divine favor on himself, giving him +3 on attack and damage rolls.
If he is aware of the approaching combat, he will pull out his wand of Shield, and pre-cast it as well as pre-casting divine favor and negating all damage in the first charge against him. Upon ambush or other unfortunate scenario, he will likely use a Ki point to cover for a missing defensive buff until he can get it activated.
Against flying enemies, he activates his winged boots and takes to the air with them, performing as normal.
Out of combat he performs healing as needed and acts as a scout with a +15 or +35 after using his wand of invisibility. He can also carry and operate any party magic items the party feels necessary between combats.
I have updated the monk build to level 10, and in doing so have found some interesting facts. Power attack is a trap for the monk! The -1 to +2 trade off is not in the monks favor.
The build is similar to before, with a few minor changes. We added a Monk's Robe and Winged Boots with the extra gold, so he can now handle flying enemies. The Winged Boots could be switched out to increase damage and saves.
Flurry DPR goes as follows -
Fighting something with 22 AC and +9 fort save, like the Couatl -
With Crane Style
Fighting something with 24 AC and +14 fort save, like a giant -
With Crane Style
Fighting a Bebilith (DR, AC 22, Fort 15)-
With Crane Style
We have 9 rounds of flurry + stunning fist + ki strike per day. Medusa's Wrath is calculated into the build, and it adds around 3-9 dpr depending on circumstances.
He has similar defenses to the Barbarian posted up the thread a ways, slightly less HP, but has flight and more DPR. Take a look.
He has 20 AC base, 28 usually and up to 32 with Crane Style. Wand of Shield is always at hand for when fighting starts, and he should have Mage armor pre cast if he is entering an area where fighting may occur. Otherwise, he loses 4 AC but is still very formidable.
Monk 10, servant of the Flaming Fist
"I serve the Flaming Fist!"
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Perception +17
HP 90.5 (9d8 + 10 + 20 + 10 + 10)
AC 28 (+2 Dex, +7 Monk AC Bonus, +4 Shield, +4 Armor, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge -1 Size)
Flatfooted 25 (+7 Monk AC Bonus, +4 Shield, +4 Armor, +1 Deflection -1 Size)
Touch 20 (+2 Dex, +7 Monk AC Bonus, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge -1 Size)
CMD 32 (10 Base +7 BAB + 5 Str + +2 Dex + 1 Size +7 Monk AC Bonus)
Defensive abilities - Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte
Fort +10 (+7 Base + 3 Con)
Ref +9 (+7 Base + 2 Dex)
Will +11 (+7 Base + 4 Wis) +2 versus enchantment
Speed 60 ft.
Fly 60ft. (5 min/3 per day)
Base Flurry +8/+8/+3/+3
CMB +22 (+5 enhancement +10 Level, +5 Strength, +1 Size, +1 Weapon Focus), Grapple +24
Melee Unarmed Strike +17 (+7 BAB + 5 Strength + 5 Enhancement + 1 Weapon Focus - 1 Size) 3d6 + 10 + 1d6 Fire
3.5+3.5+3.5+10+3.5 = 22.5 average
Flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 w/ki (+18/+18/+18/+13/+13) 3d6 + 10 + 1d6 Fire
Fighting Style - Crane Style
Magical Equipment = 58400gp
Leaving 850 GP to spend on normal adventuring items, including weapons for a ranged attack.
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
The oil would solve that problem very nicely, I agree.
Sure, but once again, the CL 16 version is not in GM fiat territory, and would exist by the core rules.
Accept a lower CL works just as well, and I can be "reasonably assured" a caster capable of casting 8th level spells is available in a metropolis. Which is up to CL 16 or +4, and works for our purposes here.
Its not ideal, but we can always refer to what lumiere said earlier and grab the spell 20th caster level spell in scroll form and ask the 15th to 16th level mage to cast it for us, paying him the usual price for spellcasting services.
A metropolis would likely have a mages guild with a high level summoner and a high level wizard/sorcerer inside on a council of elders, if you want the fluff for it. It doesn't have to be a druid.
One cannot use Permanency with Greater Magic Weapon, which is why it is very useful for fighting unarmed, but not so much for anyone else fighting with a weapon. In fact, there are really only a few spells you can use it with, in core.
The Greater Magic Fang Permanency combo really is a great balancing mechanism to the low damage normally seen in unarmed combat. I'm surprised more people don't try to use it.
I would need a 20th Druid, Ranger, or Summoner, and technically only a wizard capable of casting 5th level spells and caster level 11. The CL goes off the Greater Magic Fang spell, not the Permanency. That is an argument for another thread, however.
Ah, greater is the 7500. I'll rework the math tomorrow. As I said, you are looking for a CL 20, but you should be able to get at least a character that can cast 8th level spells, which is up to CL 16, or +4.
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
This actually makes sense. There are some known flaws in the two-weapon fighting style. Specifically lower attack bonuses, MAD, and DR problems. Monks might actually do a little better here than normal, since they don't have off-hand attacks.
Ah yes, DM fiat. The core rules say it can be done. I guess those same high level wizards don't waste days of their time making everyone's high level items either. This works just like going to see a doctor or any other skilled individual. If I want to buy something he has spent years making, like an MRI machine, its gonna cost a good deal more than if I want him to look at me in his office for 10 minutes. But people are greedy, so if I'm willing to pay him for his time, someone will do it.
If all the wizards in the world said no, demand would increase the price, but someone would still do it. The price is listed in the books, apparently these mighty wizards can spare 15 minutes a day to pay for casting a couple simple spells.
All you are asking for here is 15 minutes of their time and a couple of spell slots, which a wizard in town isn't going to be using all of anyway.
Making a Monk. In order to make a good monk, lets look at what we have.
Excellent, lets use magic fang!
How do we do it?
Spellcasting Services wrote:
So we buy Permanency Magic Fang castings for ourselves. We should aim for as high a caster level as possible, the PRD says it can likely be done in a metropolis, but you should be able to get at least a +4 casting.Might have to buy it twice, if your DM rules you need to enchant two parts of your body for flurry. If so, drop the Cloak of Resistance to a +1.
We might want to grapple and do more damage as well, so lets make ourselves bigger too. Permanent Enlarge Person, caster level as high as you can get it, as above.
These two options, both core, make the monk work fine. Unarmed strikes are cheap to get up there. By the time dispel is around enough to cause trouble for a CL 20 permanent spell, it will be negligible and the party can likely cast it for you for the permanency components.
Now, we have free hands! What can we do with our hands that most other melee combatants can't? Use items without wasting actions! What kind of items? Magic items, of course. Use the human skill point and feat to pump up Use Magic Device quickly, and we are in business. This might be a little pricy at low levels, but later level 1 wands are cheap.
Well, now we have something to do with our hands. What happens when we get higher level and our cheap little wands get dispelled very quickly? We need a backup plan! Crane style feat chain will handle situations where our AC quickly drops and we are in danger.
Basic premise of the build below - you should have Mage Armor up when you know you are going into a fight. Always have the wand of shield out and ready. Use it in the round before the fight is engaged if you can, otherwise use it on your first round. Use Crane Wing to boost defenses if needed, especially when one or both of your buff spells are down. If both buffs are up, we use power attack like mad. Also, we use power attack when we run into DR, even if our buffs are down.
Attack priorities -
Out of combat, use the healing wand to help the party out with healing.
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Perception +15
HP 63.5 (7d8 + 8 + 16 + 8)
AC 27 (+2 Dex, +6 Monk AC Bonus, +4 Shield, +4 Armor, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge -1 Size)
Flatfooted 24 (+6 Monk AC Bonus, +4 Shield, +4 Armor, +1 Deflection -1 Size)
Touch 19 (+2 Dex, +6 Monk AC Bonus, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge -1 Size)
CMD 30 (10 Base +6 BAB + 5 Str + +2 Dex + 1 Size +6 Monk AC Bonus)
Defensive abilities - Crane Style, Crane Wing
Fort +11 (+6 Base + 3 Con + 2 Resistance)
Ref +10 (+6 Base + 2 Dex + 2 Resistance)
Will +12 (+6 Base + 4 Wis + 2 Resistance) +2 versus enchantment
CMB +13 (+8 Level, +5 Strength), Grapple +15
Fighting Style 1 - Offensive
Fighting Style 2 - Defensive
Magical Equipment = 31150gp
Leaving 1,850 GP to spend on normal adventuring items, including weapons for a ranged attack.
Consumable items are worth 2250 gold, which is a little over 6% of his wealth at this level.
Kryptonian Racial Stats
Fly speed of 30 feet (average)
Kryptonians are very resistant to physical damage, but weak against magic.
Sun Powered - Kryptonians lose their racial Strength and Dexterity bonuses, flight, and damage reduction if they spend more than 24 hours without direct natural sunlight. Magic sunlight does not apply to this condition. A Kryptonians racial Wisdom and Intelligence penalties and saving throw penalties are not affected by sunlight, and remain even when a Kryptonian is in direct natural sunlight.
Superman would probably be a Monk. Just add a new feat to keep his flight speed up with his land speed.
The Monk probably doesn't need one of the two defensive bonuses, but he really does need something to supplement the MAD he has going.
I agree, the Fighter changes are probably too much. He would be fine without the doubling of combat feats, but I still feel most of the feats are too weak when compared to Barbarian rage power scaling.
The rogue definitely needs to take some of his prowess back in the skills section. The biggest thing that destroyed him there was the removal of cross-class skills.
If I had to choose one thing out of the whole set, it would be the skill training. The non magical classes really need something to give them a boost. They should all generally be better with their chosen skills than the casters. I'd even consider giving it to the barbarian as well, but his rage powers come with some non-combat benefit.
A few notes I made the other day when thinking about this same issue:
Monk Fix -
Level 3 - Flurry of feet
Level 4 - Ki Pool
Level 6 - Mind over Body
Fighter fix -
Skill points change from 2 to 4.
Feat Training - Replaces first level feat. Fighters receive double any numerical bonus granted by a combat feat.
Armor Training - Increase actual armor AC instead of of max dex.
Weapon Training - Increase to +2 attack +2 damage per instance.
Bravery - Apply to all Will saves.
Rogue Fix -
Making mundane (non magic) classes better where it counts - skills
Skill Training -
Acrobatics - You can move through threatened squares at full speed without increasing the check DC.
Additionally, you gain a bonus equal to one half your level (round down) to the chosen skill. From now on, the skill is considered a class skill for you.
Instead of choosing one of the above options, you may immediately gain 5 skill points to spend as normal.
The stealth blog was an over complicated fix. That is why it failed. The hidden state seems like a good idea though.
Haha, fair enough. I just worry that they will end up breaking it instead of fixing it.
Actually it is a combat based RPG, and according to the devs people don't have a back due to a lack of facing.
Luckily, they don't have a front or sides either. They just float in limbo, and we are never really sure where they are looking. Which is why stealth vs perception can work correctly.
Hopefully it is simply a minor clarification in the perception rules. Just clarifying when you actually get a perception check would probably cover most of the issues everyone seems to have.
Yes. You would make a new roll for every action which requires a perception check to notice. Once you are observing someone, you do not lose that observation unless distracted (see stealth rules).
It would still be instant in the case of active perception, but you are the active character here. Each person who is trying to stealth around you defends with a stealth roll, you attack with a perception roll. It works in just the opposite manner of a stealth check. You could feasibly move before performing your perception check to look behind walls and such as well, and obtain better modifiers for your perception rolls.
Active perception lets you see everything. Everyone who wants to use stealth against your perception (and can meet the qualifications - unobserved and cover or concealment) can defend with stealth.
Reactive perception: lets you see what you are reacting to.
Active stealth lets you you do the opposite. This is how the action system works.
Think about it, if I take an active perception check, should everyone else in the area also get a perception check? No.
1. I remember reading through the stealth blogs a while back, yes.
2. They were, I assume, going for clarification. Often times people interpret rulings differently, and clarity is necessary. It is likely the developers wanted to clear up the stealth rules, but realized that people had too many different interpretations and wanted to do a rewrite instead. And then they just gave up with all the worms they opened up when they tried to alter the system. They did try to bring in new modifiers, like hidden, if I remember correctly. If they tried to change the wording, they would have to change the wording everywhere. Perhaps they should have just clarified the wording in perception and stealth, but kept the same flow. Define things better and more clearly. The system works fine as is, however.
An interesting question. But, based on the rules, you already failed your check against rogue 1, so yes, you still do not detect rogue 1; rogue 1 can sneak by you and attack you with surprise still. Your perception check only applies to what you are reacting to, which would be rogue 2's readied action. This would be very open to abuse otherwise. One action and one reaction still applies in this case.
I am glad you find the interpretation reasonable. I believe it to be both RAW and RAI, and it is how I run things in my home games. I have yet to see it rule out anything that should be considered feasible. Especially when we are talking about characters with very high stealth values.
Surely there are many ways to interpret anything. I feel this interpretation streamlines everything quite nicely. Blake's interpretation seems to be much more fiddly with tracking of modifiers, and excludes the opportunity for a stealth assassin style attack for anyone standing near a light source, as well as many other missed opportunities. My interpretation seems more true to the source material. I will credit him with it being a seemingly correct interpretation, except nowhere is it stated in RAW that you get to react multiple times to the same action.
Certainly, if what they are trying to detect is within their scent range, they would get the bonus when they made a perception check. But, if they already made a perception check when the creature was outside of their scent range, they would not get a free perception check. They have already reacted. They would have to wait for their turn and take active perception (move action).
They don't. All perception checks are instantaneous, but you only get one per action. They are a reaction to the action taking place. If I decide to say a sentence to my ally, you get one perception check to hear the sentence, regardless of how long it is. If the conversation spans multiple actions, you would get one perception check for each action. You get one perception check for the entire stealth move action. You get another if he attempts to move again. Again, reaction is key. You react to an action.
Except that is not the way it is written. There is no following of modifiers, there is only one check when stealth is attempted. Failure means detection, success means no detection.
It is relevant, but not in the way you suggest. See my comments above about multiple guards. The check is only once, and the success and failure occurs when the check is made, not halfway through the movement. You do not track the rolls and modifiers throughout the process. Nowhere else is this done. You have the opposing check, the result means you can do the following:
It really is that simple. All the fiddly modifiers only apply to the location where the check is made, based on the factors present when the check is made. The result is above.
The language fits fine. The two skills are given equal consideration. The perception roll is the same for the entire movement, as is the stealth check. Nothing changes. That is why they are equal. The conditions are met when the check is made, and only one check is made for the move action. If you want an area too big for someone to cross using stealth, make it big enough that they can't cross it in one move action. This makes sense.
If you have it the other way, there is no way to ever sneak up on someone guarding a camp, because he automatically sees you (DC 0) when you come into range of the campfire.
And, by the way, this is RAW. As written. This use of perception where you get a check every 5-10 feet of movement is not RAW. The game, by RAW, uses actions. Perception is a reaction to actions. You do not get a free check when someone comes into range of your senses, because he was already in range of your senses when you made the first perception check!
To do it your way means the stealth skill is useless in many situations where we see it working in the source material this game is based off of. People are not flawless, they do not always spot everything in their surroundings.
The only reason I can see for your justification is that you do not want stealth users to be useful without magical help. Period. That is what you are arguing for, and making perception a more powerful ability than it is. This game has already strengthened perception enough by removing cross-class skills, there is no need to give extra chances on top of that.
Scent is an outlying case, but lets take a look at the special rules. They do not break anything I have said before.
Right here we have some interesting wording we do not have in the stealth or perception entries. With scent, you can detect approaching enemies. No mention of any perception checks granted.
The next section describes the range at which this detection works. Still no mention of any perception checks granted.
Here is the heart of it. You are aware of a scent, and that there is a source somewhere, but you can't pinpoint it. You can take a move action to determine the direction of the scent. Hmm, still not a perception check, but this would give you reason to make a perception check on your turn (active perception).
This section covers tracking. Not relevant to our discussion. And still no mention of any perception checks granted.
So, if you have scent, what it says is that you can detect the presence of something within 30 feet (no pinpointing until within 5 feet). No additional perception checks are granted by this.
It allows you to take a move action on your turn to get the direction of the source. Based on the wording of this, you would not be observing the source until you had pinpointed it. You could act on your turn (not before) with the knowledge gained from scent, but you by no means automatically break the stealth or any other auto-success perception rolls. You just get a hint that something is in the area. You may even know what it is, if you have smelled it before.
The same benefit is given to the observer if he is the active one. He can walk behind the wall and roll an active perception check and the rogue gets no bonuses. If he is carrying a light source and moves behind the wall, the stealth character has no defense without cover or concealment. The active participant has the upper hand in stealth interactions, just like the attacking participant has the upper hand when attacking (he can choose where to attack from, with what weapon). The defender is static.
No, I would make him roll for the DC of the cats and the balls with one check. If he beats the DC for balls, he juggles the balls but drops the cats. If he beats the DC for both, he juggles both fine. This is only relevant to the stealth discussion if we are talking about multiple observers, however. It is still one stealth check against multiple DCs (set by perception checks). And the check still occurs at the beginning of the action.
Your swim check covers all swimming for the entire move action.Your climb check covers all climbing for the entire move action.
Your stealth check covers all stealth movement for the entire move action.
See the trend? Guess what the DC for stealth is? The single perception check of each character trying to observe you. If you succeed at that check, you can go wherever you please, just like you can climb wherever you please if you beat the DC. Climb calls out an individual DC for each obstacle as well, stealth does not. Just the one.
Yelling is a new action that receives a new perception check to detect the yelling.
You are always an observable stimuli. Observation is more than just sight. Hearing, smelling, touch, taste, these are all covered by perception. One roll per action, since the game works off of actions. Your way of looking at it means a new stealth check every 10 feet, since the modifier changes every 10 feet. This interpretation does not work with the "a stealth check as part of movement". It contradicts it entirely, and is therefore invalid.
Now, with your above point, a new perception check can be given from the yelling action, or the bagpipe action as was already discussed above.
Your ruling breaks verisimilitude. It requires the guard to have eyes in the back of his head. There are no facing rules in this game, so you cannot state that he is simply looking forward. He looks around, he wipes sweat from his eyes, your job as the DM is to figure out why the check succeeded, not the players. You are breaking verisimilitude by saying that a random level 1 guardsman has perfect and always alert perception that cannot be passed by the best of the best without magic. That is breaking verisimilitude.
You aren't going to be creeping on your tippy toes. You are going to be moving quickly across the clearing while the guard checks behind, or above him. Your perception check determines how attentive you are, and the stealth check simply determines how attentive you need to be to notice him.