I could easily see castles becoming even MORE important as strategic locations in a fantasy world. You need an area warded out the wazoo against fire and magic, so there's no point not putting up physical defenses at the same spot.
I saw a very interesting article in the Dungeonomicon detailing how D&D is really more of a Iron Ages setting then a medieval one.
Settlements are secure, but separated and there is no such thing as a "national" army. Utter destruction of, well, anything is extremely rare and abhorrent- raiding is much more common, and socially acceptable. Not quite so strange in a world where the heroes are essentially hitmen.
On the rare occasions I give my players a large force to command, the force is typically "a village gone to war", where there are thirty or so Commoner 1's with longspears, pitchforks, clubs, that sorta thing, 10 or so Warrior 1's with some basic armor and weapons, maybe five Adept 1's, and the leader of the force being a ~ lvl 4 PC classed guy, typically a Fighter or Paladin. Possibly toss in an awesome old dude, Wizard 3 or something like that.
A true army,the sort that would be used in a long lasting military campaign, would probably have ~ 1000 troops in total, with a few nobles combining their own personal armies of ~150 troops. Of these, the vast majority would likely be Warrior 1 "footmen", with a few Commoners, Fighters, and Adepts scattered about.
I suppose the key thing to remember is that the vast majority of the world are level one or two Commoners and Experts, and that PC classes are rare, the domain of adventurers, mercenaries, and Royal Guard.
This was in response to a post in the other thread from Abraham Spalding regarding wizards and warfare. It really belongs here.
The relative rarity of spellcasters is immaterial. A functioning military organization that is any thing more than rough militia would logically go out of it's way to secure spellcasting units. A nation that possesd any level of magical practitioners would sensibly require some form of compulsory service. It would stand to reason that talented recruits would be selected for state sponsored military magical training. The Magus class lends itself to this almost by design. The crafting rules in PF make the creation of fireball wands a relatively inexpensive form of force multiplier.
That castles were largely made of wood is not an advantage in a world of fireballs and scorching rays. A defensive structure is not made obsolete by magic but it's design would be radically altered. Hellknights built a structure inside of a mountain, dumb on our own world since caves made it easy to cut off airflow, not so where portals to the plane of air can be erected. Magically reinforced masonry and structural supports would be common in fortification design, providing funding is available. Dungeon complexes are a silly notion of RPGs but not so much when you realize that they are far more secure from magical assault than an aboveground structure.
Flying creatures are rare admittedly. However their rarity is determined by food availability more than anything else. What is the life cycle of a griffon? I'd wager less than 20 years. If that's true then an organized breeding program could field a large flying force relatively quickly. Feeding a force of trained griffons would be expensive but hardly cost prohibitive. The advantage of aerial scouts who exceed the relative CR of the standard military unit is enormous. The Sable Company of Korvosa is elite, expensive and worth every penny to it's government. If trained griffons were mounted by war wizards who could extend the benefits of Mage Armor and Protection from Missles to their mounts you've got a potent military unit. Likely 5 times the cost of heavy cavalry but easily 5 times as valuable.
Dragons are a stretch even for a fantastic military society, but one that was the subject of TSRs first line of novels. It's a common theme in fantasy literature. Wyverns are more likely if less formidable.
My point is that magic radically alters the world in ways that go beyond simple spells and the local magic mart. Nations and societies will cultivate magic within their reach for maximum advantage and security.
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that castles were largely made of wood is not an advantage in a world of fireballs and scorching rays.
Many castles WERE built of wood, and were seen as permanant structures. Many of them lasted for 2 3 or even 400 years. (longer than there's been a united states) It wasn't because no one ever said "hey, thats made of wood, lets set it on fire". We just don't think of them because we can't go visit them today, both because they were in vogue earlier and don't last quite as long as stone castles.
A foot thick oak beam is NOT easy to set on fire. You need some sort of accelerant, and even oil is just going to make the outside nice, black, crispy and carbonized... in other words even HARDER to burn than regular wood.
Definition of a peasant is that they don't own land, and are tied to the land they farm which is owned by a vassal lord.
I didn't think that warranted space in the conversation, seeing as how once you hand them a pointy thing on a stick their land owning status is pretty much moot.
I've thought extensively on the subject as I'm currently writing a book on the subject. I think Order of the Stick nailed it on the head when it came to mass numbers. Critical hits happen and they happen alot when you're talking about a single square eating a hundred some odd attacks from archers. I'll revisit this thread later adn give it a thorough read as I'm interested in peoples opinions.
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oh god please don't start an edition war
Too late! ROLL INITIATIVE!
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oh god please don't start an edition warToo late! ROLL INITIATIVE!
G+#!*%mit cheapy you're supposed to be checking for traps.
Initiative
that castles were largely made of wood is not an advantage in a world of fireballs and scorching rays.Many castles WERE built of wood, and were seen as permanant structures. Many of them lasted for 2 3 or even 400 years. (longer than there's been a united states) It wasn't because no one ever said "hey, thats made of wood, lets set it on fire". We just don't think of them because we can't go visit them today, both because they were in vogue earlier and don't last quite as long as stone castles.
A foot thick oak beam is NOT easy to set on fire. You need some sort of accelerant, and even oil is just going to make the outside nice, black, crispy and carbonized... in other words even HARDER to burn than regular wood.
Furthermore, can't mages or alchemists create some sort of fire repellent, then pour it over the walls when attack seems imminent? Better yet, use some sort of resin that lasts years.
oh god please don't start an edition warToo late! ROLL INITIATIVE!G#~!*!mit cheapy you're supposed to be checking for traps.
1d20+10 Initiative
Initiative.
Gods damn it all! Though shalt have first move, knave!
They wouldn't be used to MAKE anything - they just walk forward. Like a donkey in a wheel.
Does a steam engine need to be intelligent?
Not really, they did have these in roman times: water wheels powering everything from grain to stone cutting saws. They were kind of relegated to cities though. Using golem power wouldn't have changed MUCH except for having the possibility of putting the factories elsewhere at a much higher cost.
Even then, you wouldn't want to have the golum in a lawless area, someone would steal it.
Even then, you wouldn't want to have the golum in a lawless area, someone would steal it.
If someone is capable of stealing a golem unharmed without gettin smashed ot bits themselves they're welcome to it. Obviously they're someoen not to mess with...oh yeah.
Standard Action Cast End Debate on edition war. The edition war ends. No save.
WHY was this moved to the Pathfinder Campaign Setting? It does NOT belong here. I'm discussing medieval warfare and magic in general, not Golarion, which I have never bought into, know nothing about, and have no interest in knowing anything about. When I say "typical Pathfinder setting", I mean swords and sorcery, not any particular campaign setting.
Please move it somewhere else, mods. It makes no sense to put it here when this thread has nothing to do with Golarion.
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Also a good answer to all the "why doesn't the lord do so and so since that would be SO much more efficient ... MAYBE IT COSTS TOO MUCH.
Really : how much income can a typical lord expect to make from his lands ?
And how much does XXXXX cost ?
Remember, your typical lord is not going to raid the Dragon hoard like typical PCs do. He probably has less cash around.
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So it's time to share the thoughts I've had while writing the aforementioned book.
1. Why don't we just field a bunch of casters? The first question that pops up and the most relevant. First is because commander's aren't stupid. If you assume that ever army is going to field a bunch of mages then you can ssume the other army is going to endeavor to murder the hell out of them given a chance. This isn't anything new in warfare. Cavalry was so powerful that a number of fiendish devices and tactics were devised purely for their disposal. The same would naturally occur for mages. Mobility would become king. Attacking at night with your demihuman troops suddenly becomes a frighteningly devastating tactic while the mage is trying to rest and recover his spells. Tight formations would not become obsolete as siad as tight formations are still the best defense against cavalry. Instead the Tower Shield would suddenly comes into play again. Remember the roman Tetsudo formation? That's total cover for all my lvl 1 warriors on all sides as a readied action against your waggly finger juice. So much for that vaunted fireball. It's slow and ponderous but highly effective defensively.
So depending on how common or how old magic is most officers or nobility would be trained very early on basic tactics on how to counter mages.
The second point is that mages aren't stupid. A mage without defenses has a lifespan of about six seconds on the battlefield. A mage with defenses can expect an opposing mage and commander to do everything in their power to take him out in the most brutal and efficient way possible. Therefore the actual use of mages in combat would be relatively rare as you'd be lucky to find a low level mage willing to risk his d6 hd self for the cause of mass conflict. Mroe likely you'd find mages deployed in guerilla units where that fireball will come in handy on a night raid popping the officers tent or setting fire to provisions. Magical warfare becomes wetwork and special operations rather than artillery and air power. Druids will make the local wildlife flee from the army in an attempt to starve them while clerics will use their healing power to keep wounded soldiers up and fighting.
So why not make a bunch of magic items? Cost. So what's our wand of fireball cost? 11,250 gold. What can I buy in terms of equipment for my group of level 1-3 warriors?
100 Tower Shields 1750gp
100 Suits of Studded Leather Armor 1250gp
100 Short Swords 500gp
100 pilumsx2 1000gp
100 equipment kits 986.5gp
1 Month's Pay (we'll call them trained hirelings) 450gp
Total is around 10873 gold. Less than a 3rd level wand. Heck with the Pilums I can even crush opposing shield formations.
So my new Centurion now has a month's worth of troops. A pretty sweet deal all things considered.
Well what about high level magic? Well exceedingly rare I imaigne. But beyond that it's also exceedinlgy dangerous. And of course mages aren't stupid. You always wonder why their are so many ruins of lsot civilizations are aorund? Because they weaponized high level magic for warfare and it cost them their empire. Wizards might go out of their way to enact a MAD policy to ensure peace between such nations but that makes high level mages on par with weapons of mass destruction which is not a reputation mages need nor want.
Ultimately it will come down to nations and kingdoms agreeing to the limitations of magic available to them in honorable warfare. A cap on spell level or caster level used at any given time (4th level is actually pretty good for this). The idea is if kings spend all their time worrying that their enemies will be using scry and die tactics to come at them while on the chamberpot they'll ruin their countries economies just trying to protect themselves. It's best for both groups involved to simply agree to limit themselves and ensure civilised warfare between nations rather than opposing wizard schools.
And ultimately remember that your average governor is not a wizard. That is a crap ton of power in an individual. Some of you are talking about high level wizards capable of wiping out armies and that isn't too far from the truth. Kings will rightly fear the mage's power and will endeavor to keep them out of the war. Afterall they don't wan their own mage to gain political clout as a war hero and they don't want their troops killed by an opposing mage. Therefore it benefits all parties if the mages just plain stay out of it.
So what magic would be feasible? Mass buffs. Bless is a massive buff if you drop it on a group of guys. Inspire Courage suddenly becomes massively lethal. Battlefield control like Entangle or Wind Wall suddenly look appealing. Subtle magic helps wizards make massive changes to the battlefield without resorting to explodey death that can prove unreliable. Such tools would benefit a commander to no end more than a single fireball that might explode on a shield wall to no effect.
Anyway this is all I have the energy to type for now. LAter I'll get on to thinking about fantasy monsters and fortification design.
I think TarkXT hits the nail pretty much on the head there. However the problem arises when the enemy does not play by the rules of Honourable Warfare.That's the point when you unleash your big guns..so your high level Magic users will be on the watch for the extra planar incursions of a foe allied with, let's say,the Forces of Hell(Yes Cheliax, I am looking at You)
Hail to the R'lyeh dominance sleeping beneath the Pacific waves of salt.
Master of the Great Old Ones resting patiently for the days of global territorial reclamation
Thanks for moving the thread oh tentacled overlord.
On the note of wizard tactics...
It means you can't march an army anywhere in one coordinated unit. One wizard in the night with a wand of fireballs and you'll loose half the army before you can wake up someone that can hit him. You'd have to run the army from fortified position to fortified position to get them in place.
You would have to split the army up into squad sized units, tell them to get to x place by y time and hope they didn't just run off.
Of course that means if they have a bigger group your smaller groups will be swallowed whole.
It looks like a big game of rock paper scissors.
Good post. I particularly like the point that mages - who usually have, what, a 16 intelligence? - will not particularly want to cast fireball, since it's like holding up a giant sign that says I JUST KILLED NINE OF YOUR BUDDIES AND I ONLY HAVE 28 HP! That's not to say that mages won't take the field, but they'd almost certainly prefer infiltration or night-time strikes (when they can avoid massed fire and waste fewer resources on defensive spells) over open battle.
Yes, but in a large, confused fracas, is it immediately obvious who launched the fireball? I could see you having a general idea of the area it came from, but of the specific person who launched it, especially if that person is dressed like a common soldier?
I think TarkXT hits the nail pretty much on the head there. However the problem arises when the enemy does not play by the rules of Honourable Warfare.That's the point when you unleash your big guns..so your high level Magic users will be on the watch for the extra planar incursions of a foe allied with, let's say,the Forces of Hell(Yes Cheliax, I am looking at You)Which is sort of the "nuclear" option.
Indeed. And ultimately mages of that level have ascended a touch beyond petty battles. Their concern is opposing mages, and equally important extraplanar forces, dragons, and other entities that conventional warfare would have difficulty facing. High level mages spent years upon years fo their time gaining that power they don't want to waste it blowing away a group of men whose only crime was to join the army for the free food and snazzy uniform. Instead they'll concern themselves with broader aspects of the kingdome, avoiding assassins from the opposing nation and flexing their not inconsiderable intelligence score towards the improvement of the kingdom and the army.
Jsut think about it. Rather than going out and mazing an enemy general they can create a fast time moving demiplane where you can throw in green recruits and in a matter of hours will come out as trained soldiers ready for battle. Instead of blowing wands of entangle on a group of soldiers a high level druid can control the weather itself to favor their nations crops while putting a nasty storm on the nations borders making invasion difficult.
@BigNorseWolf: That's how real warfare tends to be. In this case the groups of highly trained assassins sent to kill all of the opposing army's wizards (and officers too while at it) are beyond dangerous. A wizard might fear going out to hunt down these individual squads of soldiers for fear of eatin a rangers arrow in the eye.
In some ways shifty is absolutely right that it would be more like modern warfare. But with more of an emphasis on special forces, reconnaissance and mobility rather than artillery, air support, and armored columns.
I still reckon the best bang for buck is going to be the level 2 and amazingly effective Stone Call. You can ready all the shields you want, when that sucker goes off it will kill a big chunk of a formation.
No save.
And there's now a great wad of difficult terrain laying about.
At 2nd level, a single shot disposable magic item would be cheap to produce too.
I still reckon the best bang for buck is going to be the level 2 and amazingly effective Stone Call. You can ready all the shields you want, when that sucker goes off it will kill a big chunk of a formation.
No save.
And there's now a great wad of difficult terrain laying about.
At 2nd level, a single shot disposable magic item would be cheap to produce too.
The Tetsudo grants soldiers total cover from above too. This was a formation devised to handle arrow barrages. It's still a great spell but in terms of what it does you can probably do it cheaper withtout magic.
The difficult terrain is a pain but I could do that with a level 1 spell.
Edit: Derpan. Thought Stone call was only a 20ft radius.
Edit2: For example fire a few sacks worth of caltrops in a catapult. :)
As the shield only provides a bonus to reflex saves, there is nothing to say it will be guaranteed to stop a fireball.
Similarly, there is no point from which the Stone Call expands, it simply 'fills the area' and hence denies a Reflex save at all.
Unless there's rules otherwise, the shield defence isnt looking very sturdy... :(
The other problem is that the shieldsmen will need to state which facing they wish to commit their shields to against a potential fireball, yet it could go off in any square, making it a whole lot of guesswork.
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Okay one last thing before I go and do some real work I promise.
One assumption to avoid here is that every wizard is a combatant. You can't simply draft a wizard and expect to get those spells suitable for mass combat. Heck, one of my players in a CoT games is playing a Karcist accountant more suitable to being a lawyer or clerk than an adventurer and it really shows (to our delight actually the character is quite good in that fish out of water sense).
So for an army to get those spells they'll have to train there own corps of wizards or make such spells available to them. It gets even worse when you talk about spontaneous casters. Then you ahve to train them. If you sit down and look at the starting ages between say a fighter and a wizard it implies that it takes many years for a wizard to grasp the casting of even first level spells. A nation doesn't want to spend years training a level 1 wizard when they can be training rangers and rogues to slip behind enemy lines and mess people up without waggly finger juice. Personally I'd rather hire AM BARBARIAN to mess up all castys everywhere. He'd do it for free.
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As the shield only provides a bonus to reflex saves, there is nothing to say it will be guaranteed to stop a fireball.
Similarly, there is no point from which the Stone Call expands, it simply 'fills the area' and hence denies a Reflex save at all.
Unless there's rules otherwise, the shield defence isnt looking very sturdy... :(
The other problem is that the shieldsmen will need to state which facing they wish to commit their shields to against a potential fireball, yet it could go off in any square, making it a whole lot of guesswork.
I don't think you understand what a tetsudo is.
Those tower shields provide total cover. They block line of sight and with it line of effect.
The only real vulnerable point is the rear or possibly the sides. And keep in mind the mage still needs line of sight to that square behind them A shield wall blocks line of sight there. So he'd need to get above them at least to even target that weakpoint which exposes him to other hazards. It's give and take. No unit here is existing in a vacuum.
As to that interprtion I'd find it dubious as it implies the spell can hit people inside a building if cast on a square outside. After all a solid wall also provides total cover.
Argh! I'm going I'm going! Carry on!
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I think a lot of this has to take into account PC exceptionalism and whether you run a monster and or magic heavy campaign.
Will a normal military organization really have a bunch of wizards at its disposal? If you have a lot of military buffs at the table who don't mind taking orders and going on missions as part of a larger force, that could be fine. But what if your players see more powerful and banded-together NPC wizards as stealing their spotlight?
I think it's important to realize that most playing groups expect to be the elites of an army. The only ones with the real magic. The only ones who can get the job done, whatever it is. They may accept a mission from the King, but they expect to be paid, or at least recognized, and most probably expect to hear the King talk about how "only you can save the kingdom now."
Take for instance The Lord of The Rings. Only Aragorn can command the Army of the Dead. Only Gandalf can use magic to chase away Fell Beasts. Only Merry and Eowyn can kill the Witch King.
Otherwise, the forces of good don't have a lot of weapons other than courage and steel, when the orcs and trolls and oliphaunts show up. If they could do it all themselves (including magical reconnaissance, magical flying machines, and other magical versions of modern tools of war), then they wouldn't need all those heroic types.
Not that I am against those things. I like them too, in moderation. Just something to consider before "tricking out" the armies of your world.
As the shield only provides a bonus to reflex saves, there is nothing to say it will be guaranteed to stop a fireball.
Similarly, there is no point from which the Stone Call expands, it simply 'fills the area' and hence denies a Reflex save at all.
Unless there's rules otherwise, the shield defence isnt looking very sturdy... :(
The other problem is that the shieldsmen will need to state which facing they wish to commit their shields to against a potential fireball, yet it could go off in any square, making it a whole lot of guesswork.
I don't think you understand what a tetsudo is.
Those tower shields provide total cover. They block line of sight and with it line of effect.
The only real vulnerable point is the rear or possibly the sides. And keep in mind the mage still needs line of sight to that square behind them A shield wall blocks line of sight there. So he'd need to get above them at least to even target that weakpoint which exposes him to other hazards. It's give and take. No unit here is existing in a vacuum.
As to that interprtion I'd find it dubious as it implies the spell can hit people inside a building if cast on a square outside. After all a solid wall also provides total cover.
Argh! I'm going I'm going! Carry on!
What if you set the fireball off on top of the tetsudo? Surely the flame will heat up the shields and seep in between the spaces between them.
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Honestly all it takes is a bit of thought.
At level 20 with an intelligence of 36 the wizard will have 69 total spells for the day. A sorcerer is going to have 78. At the rate of one spell a round with no buffing they are both going to run out of spells in 1 hour and 18 minutes. Not much for a battle, and that's burning through all their spells.
At most the biggest area spells they have widen with metamagic is still only going to get about an 40 foot burst. That's going to get 156 people if they are all 1 per square in perfect formation. That's using a level 6 spell slot by the way which you have all of 28 of. Assuming perfect conditions that is 4368 men -- which is good... in an open field. Let's hope none of them are actually in a stone building behind fortifications that give them improved cover -- like say... I don't know a castle.
This is of course assuming you have a level 20 wizard with an intelligence of 36. Instead of your average level 3~7 NPC with the non-elite array of stats for a wizard -- you know the average.
Spells like teleport are nice of course... but you'll only get 32 people through with one at best -- and that's provided you know where to put them.
"Well just scry and fry!" Sure I'm glad that's out in the open -- first off you have to know where to scry, who to scry and have them fail the save. Then you have to contend with the fact you hope that room they are in is bigger than the 34 squares you'll need to get your strike team instead -- and that it isn't a trap.
Which brings up the third big point -- the assumption the defenders have no knowledge of magic, or what it can do in a battle in a world where magic is real. In a world where literally over 2/3 of the 'classes' have magic including the NPC classes (but excluding spell like abilities, and prestige classes which would jack that total up) you are statistically likely to be related to someone with magic... but odds are they won't be able to teleport, D. Door, and probably won't be able to successfully scry often either (average DC for an average caster is going to be all of a 15 -- the average will save is a +6~10 for those levels over a 50% failure rate for scrying).
Also stone makes good armor -- it makes even better armor when it is taking the damage for you. The vast majority of spells simply can't deal with buildings or battlefield conditions... especially when they are so limited in scope.
Let's consider our siege engines:
Light Catapult -- 4d6 damage 1,500 foot range crew of two and with a crew of 4 could fire continuously every round for as long as you can get the people to work. It's also not energy damage and therefore will deal full damage to buildings.
That's the light catapult -- requires all of a DC 15 check to put together and anyone can do it. It doesn't take years of training, just one guy directing a force to mass produce them. If we get into the heavy stuff we are looking at 8d6 damage and double the range.
And even with those firing constantly you are unlikely to take the castle down with that alone -- how do we know... because our actual history shows that. The mage is going to deal less damage per day, and need more prep time, plus be a specialized unit.
This is completely ignoring the ease with which most castles went up too. Take the Tower of London for example -- the entire complex took 19 years to build -- but look at the actual size of it too 21 towers, and doubled as a prison. This wasn't just a castle it was a masterpiece of a castle, and it only took 19 years for Europeans in what is widely considered the most ignorant phase of their history to build.
To give an idea of what the HP of such a building would have lets go with just a five foot by five foot by five foot tall section of stone: 15 hp/ inch of hardness, means 180 hp per foot meaning 900 hp for just that section, and each hit loses 8 points off of its damage total. An 8d6 heavy catapult is going to take 45 shots to break that, if each shot hits the same spot and does average damage.
These are the remains of the Chateau Gaillard Considered one of the finest castles of the middle ages and took one year to build (1197~1198).
Sure you could fly over it but what are you going to do above it? I'll give a hint -- not much.
Flying units are great -- you know why planes and paratroopers haven't conquered the world? Lack of support once landed -- yeah the Germans did really good with blitzkrieg in WW2 -- when did it fail them? Against massed defenses -- they went around them. Why? Because paratroopers suck at taking them due to light arms, being outnumbered and lack of support. They couldn't even take a fairly unarmed isle with just paratroopers (yes I'm referring to England) due to the lack of proper equipment and manpower. Planes don't fair much better as they can't do anything about the people inside all that stone, like a wizard they lacked the ammunition to get the total job done.
We bombed Germany during WW2 -- are you aware of how many flights, bombs, planes and how much time that took? Against generally unarmored targets? That's the same problem the wizard is going to have -- in fact that's a great analogy: The wizard is a B-52, he's slow, awkward, has limited munitions but a great fear effect and psychological tool. However he must have fighter escort if he's going to get the job done and even then he's going to need multiple attempts.
What if you set the fireball off on top of the tetsudo? Surely the flame will heat up the shields and seep in between the spaces between them.
Not likely to do anything of worth -- Not enough heat for a long enough time frame. Honestly it would be like setting off a bomb without the concussion over someone with shields up -- it's simply a large flash.
The concussion wave is what really does it for explosives, and fireball completely lacks that.
Well in the case of a fireball, the cover creates a problem. They will all need to know when the Casty is about to Casty his fireball though which may create a problem for them.
On the other hand the Stone Call does not fire off in one direction, it simply fills a volume. There is no one direction to protect from, so the umbrealla wont work.
The other problem is that the PF rules really don't help much when using a Tower Shield in any formation to prevent a Fireball hammering your friends...
"When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding."
A wall is a wall, but a Tower shield is not a wall. A wall can stop targetted spells, a Tower Shield (by RAW) cannot.
It is an impressvive bit of cover, but that Fireball is still going to create a headache.
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Now I can share with my buddies when it comes to total cover from attacks with tower shields -- we each just have to get a direction.
Teamwork feats were made for this sort of fun:
Shake it off for those fun fear spells -- now me and all my legion are looking at an extra +4 bonus on all save throws.
I like Gang Up and outflank too.
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Now I can share with my buddies when it comes to total cover from attacks with tower shields -- we each just have to get a direction.
Teamwork feats were made for this sort of fun:
Shake it off for those fun fear spells -- now me and all my legion are looking at an extra +4 bonus on all save throws.
I like Gang Up and outflank too.
I love you.
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Also lets not forget stuff like nimble moves and acrobatic steps.
If I was looking at troops I would want fighter 5:
Shield Wall, Shake it off, Combat Expertise, Gang Up, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic step, Outflank
That would be absolutely awesome for a phalanx.
Also I can make you some really awesome cheap armor too.
Oh look! That's 4 levels less than the wizard needs for teleport -- how about that?
-Adventurers. Are expensive, unreliable, and unruly. They don't follow the chain of command, can switch sides when they get a better offer, and I've even heard some of them have moral problems with killing the people they're told to kill just because those other people are in different uniforms (or would be IF we could get the adventurers to wear uniforms)
But... if you need a specific target neutralized or a specific short term objective taken they can blast something apart like nothing else. Just don't rely on them as part of your strategy.
Say that twice, despite the really bad AI lookup tables Majesty is actually quite illuminating as to how out right stupid and difficult to handle "Heroes" are.
Well thats assuming the ONE feat that Mr Plod the Soldier has is going to be that one particular teamwork feat, and that they all have it...
And still, its a +4, which is nice, but still does nothing against the Stone Call.
Not sure where we are going to get the hundreds of L5 Fighters from either. L1 (or L2 MAYBE) Warrior, but not Fighter.
And if we DID have that many L5 dudes kicking about, then teh conversation now goes up several orders of magnitude and we start looking well beyond L2 & 3 spells.
Invisibility, Greater
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Target you or creature touched
Duration 1 round/level (D)<---- Improved invis isn't helping you go anywhere on foot.
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless)
To deal with tower shields, the wizard simply has to drop the fireball behind the schmuck holding it. The cover is only in one direction and its measured from the epicenter, not from the direction the wizard casts.
To deal with tower shields, the wizard simply has to drop the fireball behind the schmuck holding it. The cover is only in one direction and its measured from the epicenter, not from the direction the wizard casts.
How are you getting line of sight past that shield wall?
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Well thats assuming the ONE feat that Mr Plod the Soldier has is going to be that one particular teamwork feat, and that they all have it...
And still, its a +4, which is nice, but still does nothing against the Stone Call.
Not sure where we are going to get the hundreds of L5 Fighters from either. L1 (or L2 MAYBE) Warrior, but not Fighter.
And if we DID have that many L5 dudes kicking about, then teh conversation now goes up several orders of magnitude and we start looking well beyond L2 & 3 spells.
No -- seriously no.
You have 2~3% of the population that are spell casters -- statistically they are going to be be outnumbered by all the other classes which means the other classes are going to have more higher level characters too.
Something about not wasting weeks at a time creating magic items for fun and profit and using the time to gain levels instead.
How are you getting line of sight past that shield wall?
Unless the fight is taking place in a 5 foot tall 300 foot wide cavern you can see the space over their heads.
How are you getting line of sight past that shield wall?
Unless the fight is taking place in a 5 foot tall 300 foot wide cavern you can see the space over their heads.
You mean the space currently covered by a roof of shields?
Here's another major problem -- so the wizard casts 'rocks fall some people die' -- that's cute he's spent a spell and an action and has hurt some people and maybe slowed them down (provided they don't have nimble moves and acrobatic steps).
How about the several hundred others he didn't affect at all, and of those approximately 1/3 are now unloading ranged weapons in his direction?