Foreword: This is just an idea I had as a result of some in-character arguments. I was hoping to see what others thought about the situation. I admit that I'm pretty polarized in one direction, but that's part of why I'm asking around. Also, I'm not even THINKING about the witch class, or bard in this post, as I've never been given a good explanation as to how an arcane caster like the bard can cast cure light. Or how the witch's patron derived spells are arcane.
Time and time again, game balance aside, people have told me about arcane spells and hit point damage is that that's one barrier that's only granted by the gods. And arcane magic simply can't make it happen. I think about this from an in-and-out-of-character perspective, and that lends me to these thoughts:
Game Balance: Seems to me the trick to balancing it is to make it simply less effective, or more dangerous than giving them healing on par with the "divine casters."
Idea 1: Healing is less effecient: Smaller heal die (D3's, D4's, etc.) spells come later on, requiring pricey material components?
Idea 2: Healing is more dangerous: Healing harms the caster. For any one of several reasons, be it backlash from tampering with life energy, or simply the fact that you're fortifying their health with your own. (A necromancer favorite!)
Story wise: As for this explanation, people say that healing magic is divine, a gift from the gods, that arcane magic simply cannot emulate it. Well, that's nice. Fire was once the gift of the gods, according to legend, but ooh, look, fireball. Soaring through the sky without wings to carry them? Check. Life after death? Check, sort of. Reshaping the world to their whims? Double check.
So while I think it should be CAPABLE of being done, I'm unsure how, but again, this is fishing for opinions and suggestions, so please, let loose.
I'm game.
I like the concept of taking their injuries on as your own. I even designed a character back in 3.5 with just that in mind. The spell Compendium had Healing touch as a third level sor/wiz spell that healed 1d6/2 levels and you took half the damage. You could not heal more than what it took to kill you.
There is an arcane spell that gives fast healing 1 for ten rounds called infernal healing.
What if the Health draining ability wasn't required for healing, but it boosted the effectiveness by a good amount? Like un-modified it did one die less then the Divine healers, but if you added in some health ( like 1d4 damage per Arcane healer level ) it was boosted to one die more? Or maybe the Arcane Healer heals just as well as the Divine healer, but in a different way?
There is an arcane spell that gives fast healing 1 for ten rounds called infernal healing.
I remember that spell, and use it occasionally, and while it technically does fit in, it's using a fiend's blood to speed your body's own healing, rather than coming from the magic of spells itself. Maybe that's how it's worded, but either way, that's one spell that's rather static, compared to a chain of levelling spells, or even a single spell that levels with you.
By the way, kierato, think you could post it's information here? I've.. Well, misplaced my compendium.
Seagull, I don't want them to be able to heal just as well, because that definitely tips balance much mroeso in the wizard/sorc's favor. If We can heal like a cleric, and nuke like a wizard, why play a cleric? (PLEASE don't let this descend intoa debate, I know there's still lots of reasons, but this really does shift the class balance)
I beleive an arcane should be able to heal, just not without penalty or as effectively.
Oh! Last minute idea! What if the healing was Transmutation based? Like instead of normal positive energy healing, The Arcane healing pulled matter out of the air to rebuild the wounded area?
Wait, are you talking about a Healy mage Archetype? or adding healing arcane spells into the game?
Wait, are you talking about a Healy mage Archetype? or adding healing arcane spells into the game?
I was of the opinion that adding some arcane healing spells would be better. A healing archetype is okay too, but I don't really know how it could provide half-decent hitpoint ehealing on archetype abilities, and still leave the wizard with their full selection of normal spells for the day.
Hmm, What if you mix the two? Like add some normal healy spells in that are kinda ineffective, and make an Archetype that makes them viable for group healing?
You could create a healing spell for most spell schools:
Enchantment: to convince the target that their injury is less than it seems and that it heals faster than normal (sort of like a placebo effect).
Evocation: could function much like transmutation, since by definition, it can create something (blood, healed flesh, etc.) from nothing.
Necromancy is the power of death, undeath, and the life-force. The obvious choice for healing.
Transmutation could change the damaged area back to a healthy area or rewind time for that area to when it was unharmed.(timestop is transmutation)
Conjuration and illusion can already heal.
IMO, healing should have been transmutation and/or necromancy.
Hmm, What if you mix the two? Like add some normal healy spells in that are kinda ineffective, and make an Archetype that makes them viable for group healing?
In the APG, the Life sub-school offers limited healing to the wizard.
One more thing, conjuration for healing would make more sense if you were moving their injuries to yourself.
True, though that subschool options next to nothing in terms of actual viability.
True, though that subschool options next to nothing in terms of actual viability.
True, but, it's better than nothing. It could save someone's life even if it won't heal them up to full.
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Have you checked out the latest issue of Kobold Quarterly?
There is a new Pathfinder arcane base class, the White Necromancer, that has a number of healing abilities, including the ability to cast [i]cure[/1] spells
Check out Althaghast, an NPC example of a white necromancer ---> HERE:)
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I have no problems with arcane magic healing at all, divine and arcane is a bunch of hogwash really.. in fantasy there are quite a few godless healer magic users and to my knowledge few healers that get their healing powers from their faith (outside of D&D ofcourse)
Bards would in fact make excellent candidates for a priest class with a little thematical tweaking and most cleric spells would be a good fit for a witch as well and possibly wizard or sorcerer spells 1 or 2 levels higher than on the cleric list without causing imbalance.
Maybe it is because I am an atheist but the emphasis on the divine in a fantasy game can become somewhat tedious when it is forced down your throat.
For my next campaign I am likely to do away with all divine casters and wizards and create more options, archetypes and variant classes to allow arcane castrs to function as healers and other divine roles to fill the gap.
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Bards use arcane spells to heal. Wizards should be able to learn any arcane spell. The witch has a healing hex, which is ok. But having an actual arcane spell for it too is just as wrong as the bard having it.
More people with heals makes it a better game. Since arcane healing is around I wish they could include the wizard even if it is only for a generalist Mage and one specialization.
On the other hand, false life is a great spell.
I am still confused on what the objective is here. Are we specifically talking about the wizard/sorceror spell list? Because the theoretical divide between arcane and divine casting is so blurry at this point it might as well not exist. There are divides on SPECIFIC spell lists, but not on the pure concepts of arcane and divine spellcasting.
So if you are simply looking for a mechanical way to add healing to the sorceror/wizard it already exists in the form of several 3rd party products. There is a trade off, but obviously there should be a trade off for such a thing (as you suggest in making the dice smaller for instance).
Super genius games presents it in one of three ways that I can think of off hand. One is the magus base class (not the one from ultimate magic this came out earlier). It allows you to mix spell lists from different casters.
Another is the wise archetype from the super genius guide to divine archetypes though you have to ignore the 'non-caster' restriction on the archetype.
The other option is the mosaic magewhich has several different sets of spells based on the color you chose, many of which combine traditional arcane staples with healing magic as well.
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I am still confused on what the objective is here. Are we specifically talking about the wizard/sorceror spell list? Because the theoretical divide between arcane and divine casting is so blurry at this point it might as well not exist. There are divides on SPECIFIC spell lists, but not on the pure concepts of arcane and divine spellcasting.
So if you are simply looking for a mechanical way to add healing to the sorceror/wizard it already exists in the form of several 3rd party products. There is a trade off, but obviously there should be a trade off for such a thing (as you suggest in making the dice smaller for instance).
Super genius games presents it in one of three ways that I can think of off hand. One is the magus base class (not the one from ultimate magic this came out earlier). It allows you to mix spell lists from different casters.
Another is the wise archetype from the super genius guide to divine archetypes though you have to ignore the 'non-caster' restriction on the archetype.
The other option is the mosaic magewhich has several different sets of spells based on the color you chose, many of which combine traditional arcane staples with healing magic as well.
There is also the latest issue of Kobold Quarterly which has a new Pathfinder arcane base class, the White Necromancer, that has a number of healing abilities, including the ability to cast cure spells!
What? Did I already mention that? :)
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Foreword: This is just an idea I had as a result of some in-character arguments. I was hoping to see what others thought about the situation. I admit that I'm pretty polarized in one direction, but that's part of why I'm asking around. Also, I'm not even THINKING about the witch class, or bard in this post, as I've never been given a good explanation as to how an arcane caster like the bard can cast cure light. Or how the witch's patron derived spells are arcane.
Time and time again, game balance aside, people have told me about arcane spells and hit point damage is that that's one barrier that's only granted by the gods. And arcane magic simply can't make it happen. I think about this from an in-and-out-of-character perspective, and that lends me to these thoughts:
Game Balance: Seems to me the trick to balancing it is to make it simply less effective, or more dangerous than giving them healing on par with the "divine casters."
Idea 1: Healing is less effecient: Smaller heal die (D3's, D4's, etc.) spells come later on, requiring pricey material components?
Idea 2: Healing is more dangerous: Healing harms the caster. For any one of several reasons, be it backlash from tampering with life energy, or simply the fact that you're fortifying their health with your own. (A necromancer favorite!)
Story wise: As for this explanation, people say that healing magic is divine, a gift from the gods, that arcane magic simply cannot emulate it. Well, that's nice. Fire was once the gift of the gods, according to legend, but ooh, look, fireball. Soaring through the sky without wings to carry them? Check. Life after death? Check, sort of. Reshaping the world to their whims? Double check.
So while I think it should be CAPABLE of being done, I'm unsure how, but again, this is fishing for opinions and suggestions, so please, let loose.
I can possibly offer a couple of explanations for why bards and wictches have cure spells on their spell lists. I can postulate that the other worldly spiritual entities, who grant a portion of their power to the witches through a pact, an agreement, grant cure spells as well because of their quasi Devine nature.
As for Bards, in my home brew worlds, i require that bards worship a goddess of beauty and inspiration, and that is where they get their magic from, and why they have access to cure light wounds.
I hope these explanations are helpful.
Have you checked out the latest issue of Kobold Quarterly?
There is a new Pathfinder arcane base class, the White Necromancer, that has a number of healing abilities, including the ability to cast [i]cure[/1] spells
Check out Althaghast, an NPC example of a white necromancer ---> HERE:)
Hadn't yet, doing so right now, actually.
I am still confused on what the objective is here. Are we specifically talking about the wizard/sorceror spell list? Because the theoretical divide between arcane and divine casting is so blurry at this point it might as well not exist. There are divides on SPECIFIC spell lists, but not on the pure concepts of arcane and divine spellcasting.
All the other (Helpful!) Info in your post aside, yes. For the sake of brevity, let's jsut assume that I'm trying to give a cleric-free party a way for their wizard to heal.
And the problem with adding cures and restorations in the wizard spell list is?That it is pretty much the last holdout for a class ability that the wizard spell list hasn't stomped all the #!&* over?
Valid, if a little strongly worded.
For the sake of brevity, let's jsut assume that I'm trying to give a cleric-free party a way for their wizard to heal.And the problem with adding cures and restorations in the wizard spell list is?
The only problem is one of versitility. I am all for bluring the lines of what 'role' a specific class can play. But I am a firm believer that no class should be able to do ALL of them at ONCE. If you open up the wizards spellbook to every spell in every list, you now have officially a one man party.
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Valid, if a little strongly worded.
Meh, I take out my frustration from intense boredom and/or stupidity at work on hapless forum-goers that I happen to disagree with (or not, sometimes I just argue for the sheer fun of it). Besides, anyone who takes anything I say seriously deserves what they get. It's not like I would do something crazy like try to wrap a guy around a traffic light just because he woke me up early to take him home.
:P
Bards cast arcane spells and cast CLW through Mass-CMW. They don't use smaller dice or any of that nonsense, they just throw arcane cure spells, like gold dragons.
OK, I'll rephrase.
And the problem with adding the worst cleric spells in the wizard spell list is?
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Cure and restoration spells have never gained any encounter. Still, the party somehow needs some cure and restoration. Is there any difference if the cure are displayed by a cleric, a wizard or a fighter? Is the wizard any more powerful because he can cast restoration instead of black tentacle?No.
You're creating a non-existent balance issue.
I am all for bluring the lines of what 'role' a specific class can play. But I am a firm believer that no class should be able to do ALL of them at ONCE.Except "playing a wand of CLW who can talk" isn't a role.
I suppose you could use that argument for all spells, replacing wand with staff or scroll after lvl 4 spells.. that either makes it a dumb argument or a brilliant one.
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The issue, at least to me, is that the wizard is, by RAW, alllowed to simulate practically any ability of any other class, and do so at the same level as a equivalent level member of that class, if not higher. However, not only can no other class do this, no other class can even come remotely close.
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Hadn't yet, doing so right now, actually.Have you checked out the latest issue of Kobold Quarterly?
There is a new Pathfinder arcane base class, the White Necromancer, that has a number of healing abilities, including the ability to cast [i]cure[/1] spells
Check out Althaghast, an NPC example of a white necromancer ---> HERE:)
Sounds good - hope you like what you see! I play tested the class for a number of weeks in a party with no cleric or other dedicated healer and things worked out great :)
OK, I'll rephrase.
And the problem with adding the worst cleric spells in the wizard spell list is?
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Cure and restoration spells have never gained any encounter. Still, the party somehow needs some cure and restoration. Is there any difference if the cure are displayed by a cleric, a wizard or a fighter? Is the wizard any more powerful because he can cast restoration instead of black tentacle?No.
You're creating a non-existent balance issue.
A wizard who was level or int drained is in fact more powerful in the next encounter if he casts restoration then black tentacles between encounters.
A wizards power is all about options. More options = more power for a prepared caster like the wizard. Again I have no problem with arcane casters adding traditionally divine spells onto their lists, but there should be a trade off.
I am all for bluring the lines of what 'role' a specific class can play. But I am a firm believer that no class should be able to do ALL of them at ONCE.Except "playing a wand of CLW who can talk" isn't a role.
No but the person able to remove negative conditions (paralysis, ability damage, negative levels, etc) is in fact a role as much as controller or blaster is. It doesnt have to be and shouldnt be ALL the character does, but it is part of it.
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Valid, if a little strongly worded.Meh, I take out my frustration from intense boredom and/or stupidity at work on hapless forum-goers that I happen to disagree with (or not, sometimes I just argue for the sheer fun of it). Besides, anyone who takes anything I say seriously deserves what they get. It's not like I would do something crazy like try to wrap a guy around a traffic light just because he woke me up early to take him home.
:P
You're a dick, ben. :-)
simply adding spells to a list would be unfair to other more limited casters that have the spell on their list, I'd make sure to look at the spell list of other full casters, find the highest level notation of the spell and add 1 or 2 levels to that.
I'd default to +2 levels for most spells, I might make curing spells necromancy for arcane users though, or possibly divine users as well actually.
Cure spells at 1 level higher might be alright if you want some common healing to be more readily available, making the cure spells lvl 2,3,4 and 5 spells. I'd make lesser restoration a lvl 4 spell and Heal a lvl 9 spell.