Here is the situation.
I am playing in a campaign where we have imprisoned a spellcaster in our town jail. Just as we send someone in to get rough him up a bit (because we need to confiscate his magical items) he casts a spell.
I roll spellcraft, fail, and have no idea what spell he is casting. All of the sudden, he isn't there anymore....
so the question is, am I justified in guessing that he is invisible, since that is the effect of what he cast? It's true, he could have used dimension door, cast an illusion, teleported, etc etc...
He doesn't speak, nobody knows if they hit him or not with a weapon. Eventually our charmed ally demands to be let out of the cell with him (he charmed the ally earlier). I open the cell just a little and let our ally slip through.
My character thinks he is invisible... but he did not know he cast invisibility. Is this metagaming?
Yeah check for the easiest one first then assume he teleported. It's not like you don't know magic in general -- you simply didn't pick up on what exactly he *did* cast.
Not at all. You have several reasons to suspect invisibility. Even though the character doesn't know for a fact what spell it was, he/she still knows that mages are capable of turning invisible and that it would be a good option in that situation. Not only that, but the mage is clearly still nearby since hes charming people.
Your character can still use common sense even if they can't confirm their suspicions.
The charm came before the invisibility.
The charm came before the invisibility.
From an in game point of view he went invisible or he teleported most likely.
If he can teleport then why waste time with charming someone?The only conclusion I would draw is that he charmed someone, and went invis so he could walk out of jail.
Failing your spellcraft means you didn't ID the spell he was casting -- not that you didn't see him disappear.
Your character lives in a world with magic spells, godly abilities and fae -- the fact that something *can* turn invisible isn't in any way news to your character.
The fact is, there was a guy who was locked up -- and he flailed his arms about and you stopped being able to see him.
So, yes, your character can't say for sure whether it was a lowly level 1 Vanish spell, a level 2 Invisibility, a Greater Invisibility, an Invisibility Sphere, or some similar domain power or (Sp) or (Su) ability, but he can certainly react by thinking "Hey, this guy just turned invisible" and taking reasonable precautions -- including failing around where the guy was standing, asking for a dispel magic, whatever.
My reaction: that was either invisibility or teleportation (or something wonky like merging into the surrounding stone or whatever). Step one: keep the cell locked, set the guards out to searching the surrounding area (in case of short range teleportation). Once they come back and report a failure to find the caster, go get a nice big pile of sawdust, scatter it over the floor of the cell (still without opening said cell) and then start poking around with spears while watching for footprints.
Or, you know, just wait a couple of hours to a day or two. He can't stay invisible forever.
Assuming invisibility makes perfect sense in the situation, since that's the only option you can do something about. If the spellcaster used dimension door or teleport, he's no longer there regardless of what you do, so there's no sense in worrying about that until you've checked the invisibility-option.
Actually, I'd disagree. Assuming dimension door or passwall or blink or some other short range transportation effect is the first step, since it's the option that you might be able to do something about if you act fast. Invisibility is second. Teleport, plane shift, shadow walk, etc., are third, because they're the ones that you don't have any viable response for.
I see a lot of people saying it's fair for you to suspect invisibility but I'm going to disagree. At least without knowing anything about your character.
What's your guy's background?
What's the campaign style (is magic common)?
Has he been exposed to that sort of magic before?
Is he a worldly guy? Or is he on the low end of the age bracket for his race just starting out at level 1?
Is he a country bumpkin.
Does he have any spell casting ability himself?
This type of "do I know x" is where your character's background really kicks in. It's the role playing aspect of the game.
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His character has spellcraft, so he's not a bumpkin (anymore, at least). Since he has spellcraft, he should probably have Knowledge: Arcana, too. Failing the spellcraft check merely means one doesn't know what spell is being cast while it is being cast. He should know with even one rank in either knowledge or spellcraft that spells like invisibility and charm are common among spellcasters. Again, with one rank, he should know that it is quite possible, even likely, that these two spells are in effect, and though he's not certain (it would be certain with a Knowledge: Arcana check of 21 to identify the charm just by looking, or 16 and 17 respectively with Detect Magic after 3 rounds).
One doesn't even need a rank in spellcraft or knowledge to know that the spellcaster just did something strange that required their presence- as stated before, why would he wait until then? It would take a below-average intellect person to not make that connection. If you have Detect Magic, it would be unreasonable to not use it before even considering letting the ally out. Even if it fails to identify either spell, it would reveal that there is magic in place specifically where the invisible mage is.
Even without Detect Magic, or a rank of Knowledge: Arcana or spellcraft, the situation would reek of strangeness and most people would leave the man in there for a while at least. Obvious effects like Invisibility will prompt even an animal to go through a 'what just happened' routine. IMO, this is a big stretch on the GM's part. I'd not expect such a tactic to work for a player character in any similar circumstances.
My characters general stats are:
Fighter 1/Cleric 5
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 20
Cha 10
I have no ranks in Spellcraft.
The world we are playing in is Kingmaker, adventure path 2 (NO SPOILERS PLEASE).
I have no ranks in Spellcraft.
Spellcraft can't be rolled untrained, so without ranks you couldn't roll in the first place.
In any case, as a 5th-level caster yourself, you certainly know there are many magical effects that can be created. Although, if you've never seen invisibility used, while you have seen dimension door or teleport used, it would probably make more sense to assume one of those.
Nightskies you are making a lot of assumptions. If your assumptions were correct then your logic would pan out. But you don't know. A rank in spellcraft also does not preclude someone from being a backwoods hedge wizard who's knowledge of spells is limited to his own inherited spellbook.
1 rank of spellcraft or knowledge arcana does not give you encyclopedic knowledge of the core rule book's spell lists.
Eh so the Op reposted. He has no ranks in spellcraft and is a cleric, So nightskies.. probably no ranks in knowledge arcana either.
An intelligence of 8. Still no info on character backstory.
I'm seeing this as a bit of a stretch for an automatic assumption of invisibility. If I were playing the character I would certainly play him as suspicious. First step would be a detect magic to see if I can figure out what's up. But an auto "oh he cast invisibility" is looking metagamey with the little info given.
I would think that a Cleric 5 who just saw something like that happen would probably Detect Magic just to get additional info - spellcraft roll or no.
Again, just my take.
What conclusion the character draws is really up to what the player thinks are the most obvious posibilities that the character might now of.
When it can be assumed that the character knows that magic can turn one invisible or teleport one to another place, which as a 5th level character he does, than the character can assume that the mage used some magic to that effect. What he does then is left to him.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, no ranks in Spellcraft (and we'll assume none in knowlege).
So he does know that
Without any ranks in either, he could have turned invisible, teleported, turned into an insect, possessed a party member, never been there to begin with, etc.
I'd say that taking invisibility countermeasures wouldn't be meta if you took measures against all the other possibilites.
"Where'd he go? Is there a rat or something?"
"Bubba, are you possessed?"
"Whoa, maybe that was an illusion we captured."
Net result is going to be there should be enough confusion for even a semi smart wizard to sneak out.
What conclusion the character draws is really up to what the player thinks are the most obvious posibilities that the character might now of.
yes, and the character's backstory / past adventures are going to be a prime source of information to determine what the character might know.
My characters general stats are:
Fighter 1/Cleric 5
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 20
Cha 10I have no ranks in Spellcraft.
The world we are playing in is Kingmaker, adventure path 2 (NO SPOILERS PLEASE).
If someone can just leave why the need for the charm? That would be my reasoning. If your GM plays it so magic is rare then another caster with spellcraft should have intervened.
You have a high wisdom which dictates high situation awareness. I would have at least had the guards lock the doors so nobody walks out. Then start making perception checks.
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1 rank of spellcraft or knowledge arcana does not give you encyclopedic knowledge of the core rule book's spell lists.
Of course not, but these are very common spells being considered. With one rank, one should be aware that Charm Person and Invisibility exist and have a rudimentary enough knowledge that they charm a person and make a person invisible, respectively. My bad for assuming he had spellcraft since he made a spellcraft roll...?
None the less, as stated, even with an utter lack of knowledge of spells, the events should raise questions. Its obvious that some kind of trickery is taking place. Considering it more closely, just how did the caster make use of the charm spell? Is it certain it was a charm? Mentioning that your job was to go in there and take magic items... yet not having any ranks in spellcraft or knowlege: arcana... that is asking to have the caster dupe ya. Hopefully that impressive wisdom will save the day.
But I've said enough. Good luck, OP.
Following what Matthew Morris has said:
- I know he cast something.
- I know that he is nowhere to be seen.
I am not saying "This guy cast invisibility". What I am saying is that my character guessed and thinks he is invisible. I can't see him being totally ignorant of spell effects, seeing as how he is able to cast 3rd level spells.
If I had purge invisibility or dispel magic memorized that day, would I need a rank in spellcraft to be justified in casting it on the area to see if an invisible creature was there?
Lol at all of you;
So, if a faerie turns invisible in front of me... I need to have spellcraft to recognize the effect of invisible?
Ps: Kinderkin, I have 6 available skill ranks at level 6. Spent in Knowledge Religion, Spot, Sense Motive, Knowledge Planes, Use Magic Device, Profession(Healer).... sorry I didn't optimize enough for you lol.
KenderKin this is a case of read what you are posting completely:
From the dispel magic spell:
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected.
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional opening (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item's physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.
Nowhere does it require you to name the effect to be dispelled, only to target it. I don't have to name the mage in order to swing a sword at him -- I don't have to name the ogre to tell you I'm targeting him with a disintegrate and I don't have to name that spell in order to dispel it in the game.
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I had no idea that 1 rank of Spellcraft would hinder a character this much... I'll probably ask my DM if I can swap out one of the other ranks.
However, I still don't think it's beyond someone's perview to be able to see an effect and make a guess as to what that effect is... even without spellcraft.
For instance,
Does a guard need spellcraft when seeing someone do the exact same thing in order to guess that he might be invisible?
My characters general stats are:
Fighter 1/Cleric 5
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 20
Cha 10I have no ranks in Spellcraft.
The world we are playing in is Kingmaker, adventure path 2 (NO SPOILERS PLEASE).
If someone can just leave why the need for the charm? That would be my reasoning. If your GM plays it so magic is rare then another caster with spellcraft should have intervened.
You have a high wisdom which dictates high situation awareness. I would have at least had the guards lock the doors so nobody walks out. Then start making perception checks.
And how does the character know someone has been charmed?
What I would say: No your character has low Int. It means he is dumb. Combined with high wis it means he knows there's something weird going on, but he just can't figure out what. Alerting the guards would also require some intelligence.
KenderKin this is a case of read what you are posting completely:
Nah it is a case of you taking my post seriously!
I wish people would stop doing that! ;)
But the internets are serious business!
My characters general stats are:
Fighter 1/Cleric 5
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 20
Cha 10I have no ranks in Spellcraft.
The world we are playing in is Kingmaker, adventure path 2 (NO SPOILERS PLEASE).
If someone can just leave why the need for the charm? That would be my reasoning. If your GM plays it so magic is rare then another caster with spellcraft should have intervened.
You have a high wisdom which dictates high situation awareness. I would have at least had the guards lock the doors so nobody walks out. Then start making perception checks.
And how does the character know someone has been charmed?
What I would say: No your character has low Int. It means he is dumb. Combined with high wis it means he knows there's something weird going on, but he just can't figure out what. Alerting the guards would also require some intelligence.
An 8 is not that low, that basic things would not be done.
With that aside though the OP was charmed, he was that one that let him out. I would think that if you let him out that you would not try to hunt him down until the spell wore off.PS:I missed that before.
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You have an enemy spell-caster captured and you left him CONSCIOUS!? Well THERE'S your problem.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wasn't charmed... the Barbarian that went into the cell to rough him up was charmed.
*Sigh* I wanted to capture him allive... I had already Held Person on him and could have cou de gras'd him... but I really wanted to subduel damage his ass down and discredit him.
I wasn't charmed... the Barbarian that went into the cell to rough him up was charmed.
*Sigh* I wanted to capture him allive... I had already Held Person on him and could have cou de gras'd him... but I really wanted to subduel damage his ass down and discredit him.
I go back to my statement of calling for a lockdown then when the barbarian is holding the door open. It is seems like an escape attempt at the least.
Locking the place down for at least 24 hours is what I would have done.
You have an enemy spell-caster captured and you left him CONSCIOUS!? Well THERE'S your problem.
+1
The fact is, there was a guy who was locked up -- and he flailed his arms about and you stopped being able to see him.
So, yes, your character can't say for sure whether it was a lowly level 1 Vanish spell, a level 2 Invisibility...
I would disagree here.
Different GMs may or may not allow this - it´s plausible to allow an additional Knowledge:Arcana check to recognize ´Spell Effects in place´ and rule that Invisibility effects ´look similar´ when they go into effect, and that Dimension Door, etc, look different (the rules don´t actually say that though... since Invisibility resuls in things looking like you are not there, there very well could be no difference to Dimension Door being cast... which makes you actually not be there). But allowing that WITH NO CHECK AT ALL? Not that plausible to me... That would be allowing the effect (recognizing spell effect) of a passed Knowledge:Arcana check with no check required.I would say that many characters could assume that something like Invisibility was cast, although they wouldn´t be SURE of that, and if they tried to ´test´ for his presence but couldn´t find him, you may well give up and decide he´s NOT there and Invisible. One factor here is that he chose to Cast (whatever) WHEN YOU ENTERED THE ROOM. If he had Teleport or Dimension Door available, why not cast it before? Still, you don´t really know... Maybe that cock-roach near where he was standing is really him, Shape-Changed.
I think the important part is to have an in-character rationale based on what your character actually knows... If you GM wants to have Knowledge:Arcana checks for your ´general knowledge of magic´ (and thus how wizard casting works, what kind of spells exist, etc) that can help specify things.
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I think that a level 5 spellcaster who can cast Invisibility Purge would at least know of invisibility and that it would be a reasonable guess as to what happened in this case.
You could also guess teleportation magic, but as others have mentioned, if that happened there's not much you can do so you might as well treat it like invisibility since there is little else you can do.
My characters general stats are:
Fighter 1/Cleric 5
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 20
Cha 10I have no ranks in Spellcraft.
The world we are playing in is Kingmaker, adventure path 2 (NO SPOILERS PLEASE).
If someone can just leave why the need for the charm? That would be my reasoning. If your GM plays it so magic is rare then another caster with spellcraft should have intervened.
You have a high wisdom which dictates high situation awareness. I would have at least had the guards lock the doors so nobody walks out. Then start making perception checks.
And how does the character know someone has been charmed?
What I would say: No your character has low Int. It means he is dumb. Combined with high wis it means he knows there's something weird going on, but he just can't figure out what. Alerting the guards would also require some intelligence.
Perhaps because of the abnormal befriending of the spell caster? 8 int isn't retardation, they're just a bit dim that's all. You're right communicating feelings does take some intelligence, 3 intelligence.
Well I just did some research on this. I asked my parents who have limited knowledge of this game(didn't even know I was referring to this at all anyways), limited knowledge of fantasy and magic type stuffs, etc.
Their response to "A wizard is locked in a jail cell and disappears, what did he do?"
1st - "He went invisible."
2nd - "He was a hologram." - illusion
3rd - "He twinkled." - teleport
4th - "His molecules dispersed and he walked through the bars/walls." - gaseous form
So as you can see from this little test, even someone who doesn't know anything except the guy locked up is a wizard and he disappeared could guess such things. Probably the 2nd and 4th were brought on by scientific knowledge of our modern age, but 1st and 3rd are pretty reasonable guesses.
I want to jump on the bandwagon of refuting this statement too.
And how does the character know someone has been charmed?
What I would say: No your character has low Int. It means he is dumb. Combined with high wis it means he knows there's something weird going on, but he just can't figure out what. Alerting the guards would also require some intelligence.
If 10 is the average score for a commoner, then on average they have 10 INT.
If the average IQ is ~100, then 10 INT = 100 IQ.So an 8 INT = 80 IQ.
According to statistics:
68% of people fall in the range of 85~115 IQ.
95% of people fall in the range of 70~130 IQ.
Since 70 is the commonly accepted level of IQ to qualify as 'retarded', this character does not fall in that level, so it may take him a round to figure out what is going on, but he could call for the guards or something. I would also hope that there is someone in the same room with at least a 10 intelligence who'd also very likely figure out that he may have gone invisible or whatever and would be able to figure out what to do quickly.
The fact is, there was a guy who was locked up -- and he flailed his arms about and you stopped being able to see him.
So, yes, your character can't say for sure whether it was a lowly level 1 Vanish spell, a level 2 Invisibility...
I would disagree here.
Different GMs may or may not allow this - it´s plausible to allow an additional Knowledge:Arcana check to recognize ´Spell Effects in place´ and rule that Invisibility effects ´look similar´ when they go into effect, and that Dimension Door, etc, look different (the rules don´t actually say that though... since Invisibility resuls in things looking like you are not there, there very well could be no difference to Dimension Door being cast... which makes you actually not be there). But allowing that WITH NO CHECK AT ALL?
Actually, Quandary, for the sake of brevity, I may not have explained all of my reasoning.
I started with these premises:
a) You see the guy
b) He casts <x>
c) You no longer see the guy
d) You live in a world with things like fae, many of which can turn invisible at will
e) You've heard (wildly exaggerated) tales about these things
f) Low level magic is more common and thus better known than higher level magic
So, yes, I would argue that no longer seeing the person would make *most* people assume that the vanish-ee turned invisible, without there being any additional evidence/stimuli. {That last part is important}
And yes, I do agree that it is possible that they assume, instead, some sort of teleportation -- but all of those are higher level spells which the untrained-in-spellcraft-guy (or knowledge arcana) might not even really be aware of.
Similarly, spells which change shape do exist, but the watcher didn't see anything that makes the person's form waver or alter - he just saw him vanish. Also, again, magic to change shape is more powerful and thus, less well known and/or understood than invisibility.
Now, I didn't say that the person is sure it's invisibility, what I said was that it's a reasonable assumption for the character to make.
So, when you say:
]Not that plausible to me... That would be allowing the effect (recognizing spell effect) of a passed Knowledge:Arcana check with no check required.
It's my turn to disagree -- it's just allowing the effect of having seen the situation. Or do you require people to make knowledge: arcana checks to 'recognize the spell effect' of a wall of fire before they can react to it?
"Hmm, a wall of flame just appeared and the heat is damaging me. Darn, it could be *anything*, what should I do?"
I would say that many characters could assume that something like Invisibility was cast, although they wouldn´t be SURE of that, and if they tried to ´test´ for his presence but couldn´t find him, you may well give up and decide he´s NOT there and Invisible.
Then we agree -- the character would not be metagaming for checking for invisibles.
I see a lot of people saying it's fair for you to suspect invisibility but I'm going to disagree. At least without knowing anything about your character.
What's your guy's background?
What's the campaign style (is magic common)?
Has he been exposed to that sort of magic before?
Is he a worldly guy? Or is he on the low end of the age bracket for his race just starting out at level 1?
Is he a country bumpkin.
Does he have any spell casting ability himself?This type of "do I know x" is where your character's background really kicks in. It's the role playing aspect of the game.
First off, we already know something, the player rolled Spellcraft.
Spellcraft is trained only.
Since he rolled it, we should be safe in assuming he has 1 rank in the skill.
Since he has one rank in the skill, assuming he has an Intelligence of 10 or higher, that means it is possible for him to identify 6th level or lower spells while they are being cast (though it's difficult).
I would say that any common spells are fair game, as are schools of magic. The character doesn't know which school of magic was used, but he knows what they're capable of, otherwise Spellcraft wouldn't be useful for the Improved Counterspell feat. Improved Counterspell doesn't add an ability to the skill Spellcraft, it merely adds an option to the counterspelling option of spellcasting.
Therefore, knowing Spellcraft, you know the schools of magic and can identify which spells are in which school, giving you the ability to figure out what each school is capable of.
There is certainly reasonable assumption, One thing everyone here is leaving off to further confirm it. You are a cleric with high wisdom, you almost certainly have a half decent perception check. He's invisible, in a cell with no battle noises etc... at point blank range. You should have had a very high chance to have heard him had he tried to move, and I also agree with it not being meta gaming for your character to suspect invisibility. Honestly IMO if a sane player can deduce it without DM Knowledge (IE the DM describes him waving his hand, and being gone rather then saying "he casts invisibility and you don't identify it), Then it is perfectly reasonable for a character that lives around that sort of thing and has a high wisdom, to reach a similar conclusion. Heck even IRL people are willing to suspect magic for stupid things
Well I just did some research on this. I asked my parents who have limited knowledge of this game(didn't even know I was referring to this at all anyways), limited knowledge of fantasy and magic type stuffs, etc.
Their response to "A wizard is locked in a jail cell and disappears, what did he do?"
1st - "He went invisible."
2nd - "He was a hologram." - illusion
3rd - "He twinkled." - teleport
4th - "His molecules dispersed and he walked through the bars/walls." - gaseous formSo as you can see from this little test, even someone who doesn't know anything except the guy locked up is a wizard and he disappeared could guess such things. Probably the 2nd and 4th were brought on by scientific knowledge of our modern age, but 1st and 3rd are pretty reasonable guesses.
You see, I am not talking about whether or not my character knows anything about the spell... just whether or not he's justified in thinking "this guy could still be in that cell"
Never the less, I think it's awkward to be able to cast purge invisibility.... yet am I metagaming for just not being able to tell what spell is being cast and double checking with a purge invisibility?
Same Deal.