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Whether it's rules ambiguity, inherent gishyness, or something else entirely, I can't seem to shake the thought of playing a synthesist summoner as a guilty pleasure. Depending on how your DM interprets it, these guys are potentially unstoppable and capable of a good variety of damage-dealing, punishment-taking and utility -- all at the same time.
Pounce at 1st level, godly saving throws when multi-classed with a paladin, admirable AC without wearing a single bit of armor, multiple natural attacks that don't count towards iterative attacks with manufactured weapons (can you say 7 natural attacks, then 6 more whilst two-weapon fighting?), and that's not all of it. However, I'll stop right there.
Despite this being a munchkin's dream come true, I can't help but feel that this is the lesser of the two sides to a Synthesist. Now, I know that Pathfinder, like any other tabletop rpg, is limited only by what the DM and your own imagination allows. But I've never seen a larger, more versatile canvas than what this archetype has to offer.
For those of you not familiar, a synthesist summoner literally wears his eidolon like a second skin or armor, translucent though it may be. It seems a small detail to allow this skin to be completely invisible or completely opaque. This makes a ton of story options mechanically viable: a super-hero with a power suit, a bestial character that can allow himself to be a mount for other character, an otherworldly creature that nurtures/protects a physically frail member of a mortal race within itself, a pair of beings with a natural symbiosis to one another birthed from the First World of the fae, etc.
Do you need this class to be able to weave stories about fantastic character origins? Absolutely not. However, it just seems to me that the other classes restrict the way players and DMs believe a character can come about.
The previously mentioned statement is the point of this long-winded post -- how do I justify playing one of these guys without going overboard with the mechanics?
To answer the title's question:
Yes.
How to keep it reasonable?
Don't use Pounce. Don't focus on natural attacks.
Be an angel! Fly around, smiting with your sword.
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Kinda what Cheapy said. I mean, heck, I'm even fine with pounce. You're still limited to the number of natural attacks you can have. Just as long as you don't create a 12 armed multi-weapon fighting monstrosity, all should be alright.
And yeah, I think the cooler synthesist options are playing things people normally consider monstrous races. Wanna play a minotaur? EASY as a synthesist. Angel? Still easy. How about, say, a Dragon? Requires quite a few evolutions, but still quite feasible.
Personally, I like to make my synthesists look like aspects of the god they serve. Yeah, I make them REALLY divinely bent, but you just can't beat the look on the cleric's face when you actually summon up the vision of Sarenrae herself.
I think the Paladin has a limited RP potential. Only being one alignment tends to skewer most ideas.
This question actually applies more to vanilla summoners tbh.
Synthesists are tough but not amazingly powerful. I sort of see them like a Mystic Theurge when 3.0 was young. Sure you could cast divine adn arcane spells. But ou couldn;t do them both at once. Same logic applies here. Yes you can be nasty in melee and cast spells but you can't do both at once. And the fighter is still nastier in melee than you anyway.
Be an angel! Fly around, smiting with your sword.
I did this exact thing, with a scythe. I was a night-unhittable angel of reaping-death. It was fun, but it completely overshadowed everyone else in the party... I abandoned it after one session of leading every charge (because I was in little danger of being hit or failin a save), hitting as hard as our two hand ranger, and still having spellcasting options to spare.
I dropped the character :/
To be honest, I'd only allow a non-optimizer to play a Synthesist.
And Master summoner is right out for everyone :p
I'd rather work out them just being a monster as PC.
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I find the this as an awesome archetype
UNLIMITED potential
With it i was finally able to finish my hero team
A Master Chemist
A Monk who throws his mighty SHEILD
A Magus who specializes in sonic and lightning while throwing his war-hammer
And a Synthesist summoner who built his eidolon in a cave WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS
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Even a non-optimizer does great with Synth; even if you fail to dump Str/Dex and take more fluffy feats you're going to end up nearly invincible and overshadow a class (that class may be the skillmonkey, but you are).
I'm under the strong belief the summoner as whole needs major nerf (and yes, I know how Eidilons work; somehow people believe anyone who thinks they are overpowered mis-builds).
I play one in PFS, I love him as an RP character, but he truly does make most of the group feel overshadowed in combat situations.
I think a lot of the issues are with how easy the class is to optimize, combined with how adaptable it is.
Lesser Evolution Surge is nearly a mini-wish with Synthesist. "Man, you know what'd be cool? Near immunity to fire against these fire elementals! Or maybe a new mode of movement, just for this situation. Or heck, how about a +8 to a skill check for a bit?"
A +8 to a skill check on demand is something of a killjoy for the people in your party who actually have to work for their skill bonuses; the synthesist is one spell slot away from instant skill mastery and more.
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Synthesists are tough but not amazingly powerful. I sort of see them like a Mystic Theurge when 3.0 was young. Sure you could cast divine adn arcane spells. But ou couldn;t do them both at once. Same logic applies here. Yes you can be nasty in melee and cast spells but you can't do both at once. And the fighter is still nastier in melee than you anyway.
I suggest reading up the synthesist thoroughly, there is a LOT they have going for them that a fighter can only dream of.
To be perfectly honest, every class has unlimited RP potential when you think outside the box. Its all about how you flavor it. Just because the mechanics don't give flavor, doesn't mean the player can't. That's what RPing is all about. Class mechanics only limit your flavor if you let them.
So, with that being said, I don't personally see any problems from the RPing perspective. Summoners arent the only class that can summon; in fact almost every spellcaster can. If you're comfortable with the idea of being able to summon a creature, then it really shouldn't be that much more of a stretch of the imagination to imagine just merging bodies with it.
I agree with you whole-heartedly, but you'd be shocked how many times I've been shot down by my DM because I wanted to do something a little interesting. For example, I wanted to make an Osirion Paladin with a large scorpion bonded mount (I'd prefer that over a camel as a desert-themed mount any day). Mechanically, it's quite possible (read ultimate magic animal companions and the rules for a paladin's divine bond). However, because it wasn't horse, pony, or a dog, he wouldn't allow it. What a fantastic, creative world we live in, right?
Synthesists are tough but not amazingly powerful. I sort of see them like a Mystic Theurge when 3.0 was young. Sure you could cast divine adn arcane spells. But ou couldn;t do them both at once. Same logic applies here. Yes you can be nasty in melee and cast spells but you can't do both at once. And the fighter is still nastier in melee than you anyway.I suggest reading up the synthesist thoroughly, there is a LOT they have going for them that a fighter can only dream of.
I do. And I've made them. Fighter's still outfight them. And a synthesist is still no worse than a vanilla summoner. KRispy has a point with evolution surge however I'd like to point out that it's no different than using it on a normal eidolon.
That's the issue I'm having no one's pointed out what a synthesist has over a normal summoner.
That's the issue I'm having no one's pointed out what a synthesist has over a normal summoner.
Perception. And quite of a bit of durability (lacking a weak link) but I still agree action-economy favors the summoner. But for an example of what I mean, consider the following.
Normal Summoners are like (and this is an example) having two characters at 80% effectiveness... the eidolon doesn't overshadow a good fighter, and the summoner is in a support role generally and no one is horrifically overshadowed by either of them, so your party doesn't perceive being outclassed by the summoner player.
The Synthesist is not as good as the Summoner technically, but from the rest of the table's viewpoint, you're still sitting there playing a character who's 120% as good as anyone else, who's able to adapt to any situation on the fly, and who can be like, "Oh yeah, I can solve this problem!" at the drop of a hat. And its 'your character' is better than 'their character' to appearances at the point.
So while I could see a Summoner being fine in a party dynamic situation, the Synthesist tends to stick out as the guy who can solve all the problems.
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I'd really like to DPR Olympics you; build a fighter, any level. I'll match you with a Synthasists. Without even taking into consideration I am a caster that starts with 18-20 Cha and has a bevy of buffs, I should be able to beat your AC (after about level 5), damage, and so similar tricks (like if you build a trip-fighter I'll build a Trip-synth). It's almost too easy.
We'll start here
Synth Half-elf (20 point, you can up or lower this)
Str: 7 (16 as biped)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (12 as biped)
Con: 14 (13 as biped)
Chr: 19
And we'll build his evolutions etc based on the level you would like (and style). Keep things Core, and we can even keep PFS legal (where I cannot take monster feats). I believe I can show you that on the combat side alone I can win, then we'll add in I have great spells and better saves later.
Edit: and yes, amazing durability is the key to the synth. Dumping dex and Str, then ending up with a 30 AC and 28 Str at 8th. In a standard synth/Eidilon situation the vulnerability of the synth is often what prevents them from staying together. HP are another key, the eidilon weakness is often attributed to its low HP; the synth does not have this issue (he gets his HP and the Eidilon's as a bonus; effectively making him the highest hp in the game); and dumping dex isn't smart. Note on the synth I won't dump Con still. But the end result comes out more survivable but not quite as powerful (1 action instead of 2; no attack and buff same round).
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I do. And I've made them. Fighter's still outfight them. And a synthesist is still no worse than a vanilla summoner. KRispy has a point with evolution surge however I'd like to point out that it's no different than using it on a normal eidolon.
That's the issue I'm having no one's pointed out what a synthesist has over a normal summoner
The main advantage a synthesist has over a regular summoner is that the eidolon and synthesist are one. You cannot target one or the other.
You see, the main weakness of a summoner is being able to marginalize the eidolon by getting it out of the picture, usually by banishment.
However, a synthesist, if properly built up, protects its eidolon by forcing spellcasters to target the pc's saving throws (which get insane if you combine things like divine grace, shielded meld, etc.).
Hence, you have something with high hp, high saves, high armor, a ton of natural and manufactured weapon attacks with pounce / dimensional agility - savant (not to mention high damage on each attack with power attack + arcane strike), energy immunities, and high ability scores across the board. This is all powered by an eidolon aspect that will only be banished on a saving roll of 1 on your synthesist's part.
A normal, separate eidolon can probably be banished easily enough, considering they don't reap the benefits of class features and a gear that boosts saving throws (cloak of resist).
So while I could see a Summoner being fine in a party dynamic situation, the Synthesist tends to stick out as the guy who can solve all the problems.
Then it's not an issue with the synthesist it's an issue of viewpoint.
Alchemists, Clerics, Druids, and some Wizards are equally capable of solving all problems in such a manner and in the druid's case be an equally terrifying combatant and an even better spellcaster.
I love the RP opportunities provided by synthesists but you really they're not so overpowered as some like ot make them out.
Even our "Angel of Death" who dropped their character could have performed the same strategy with a fighter and a helpful wizard.
Sometimes I want to reach across the GM screen and slap the stupid out of some people. Particularly when I see a pair that would be absolutely devastating if they had thought to work together rather than live in their own world.
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I'm waiting for these builds; most of those classes are highly vulnerable (synths have AC, HP, and even a random save bonus), Druids require high physical stats to be a transformer and suffer from lower AC, and still can't match on damage at ANY level (and even have to wait to 5 to transform); and have weaker buffs. Alchemists who drink 20th level potions then spit them out CAN keep up from 5-8, but usually suffer from MAD issues and effectively give up casting (14 int, lots of spells used to spit up potions).
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So while I could see a Summoner being fine in a party dynamic situation, the Synthesist tends to stick out as the guy who can solve all the problems.Then it's not an issue with the synthesist it's an issue of viewpoint.
Alchemists, Clerics, Druids, and some Wizards are equally capable of solving all problems in such a manner and in the druid's case be an equally terrifying combatant and an even better spellcaster.
I love the RP opportunities provided by synthesists but you really they're not so overpowered as some like ot make them out.
Even our "Angel of Death" who dropped their character could have performed the same strategy with a fighter and a helpful wizard.
Sometimes I want to reach across the GM screen and slap the stupid out of some people. Particularly when I see a pair that would be absolutely devastating if they had thought to work together rather than live in their own world.
Can I play in your games, because if that's how your games work, then I want no part of campaigns that a friend of mine runs. Either one player has no imagination or initiative to read the rules for his/herself, or another player bullies the dm into do whatever he wants with no input or discussion between the other players.
I'd really like to DPR Olympics you; build a fighter, any level. I'll match you with a Synthasists. Without even taking into consideration I am a caster that starts with 18-20 Cha and has a bevy of buffs, I should be able to beat your AC (after about level 5), damage, and so similar tricks (like if you build a trip-fighter I'll build a Trip-synth). It's almost too easy.
We'll start here
Synth Half-elf (20 point, you can up or lower this)Str: 7 (16 as biped)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (12 as biped)
Con: 14 (13 as biped)
Chr: 19And we'll build his evolutions etc based on the level you would like (and style). Keep things Core, and we can even keep PFS legal (where I cannot take monster feats). I believe I can show you that on the combat side alone I can win, then we'll add in I have great spells and better saves later.
Edit: and yes, amazing durability is the key to the synth. Dumping dex and Str, then ending up with a 30 AC and 28 Str at 8th. In a standard synth/Eidilon situation the vulnerability of the synth is often what prevents them from staying together. HP are another key, the eidilon weakness is often attributed to its low HP; the synth does not have this issue (he gets his HP and the Eidilon's as a bonus; effectively making him the highest hp in the game); and dumping dex isn't smart. Note on the synth I won't dump Con still. But the end result comes out more survivable but not quite as powerful (1 action instead of 2; no attack and buff same round).
Indeed a synthesist is quite durable but there are some issues with this idea.
1st: A synthesist doesn't gain his Eidolons HP he gains it as temporary HP. Which can only be healed by spells that only he has. So he's already blowing spells/wands on keeping that part of himself healed.
2nd: There's also tons of ways to mitigate an eidolons low HP. Toughness, for example. Or evolution points into CON. Lifelink is another decent one (and I'd like to point out the same method the synthesist uses to keep wearing his skin) There's also reach.
As far as DPR olypmics I have neither the desire nor need. If you wish to do so we have dpr olympic threads you can give your build to. You will likely find that even if you beat out a pure fighter in damage AM BARBARIAN or something along similar lines will crush you, all day, everyday.
I'll give you that you end up more durable, but also more vulnerable. You still have to summon said eidolon during the day. And 90% of your combat effectiveness disappears if you fail one save against the wrong effect. And effects that target outsiders? They hurt you, and in some cases very badly. So you need those saves.
A normal, separate eidolon can probably be banished easily enough, considering they don't reap the benefits of class features and a gear that boosts saving throws (cloak of resist).
Actually they do. All you have to do is give it to the eidolon.
And in any case there are plenty of ways to protect them from such effects. Afterall he has his own feats and skills right? what's to stop you from giving him iron will? Or UMD?
Hence another advantage. Effectively the summoner and his eidolon have more skills between them. They can afford to branch into other areas of expertise. And with the Skilled Evolution the eidolon can afford to toss one rank in a skill get evolution surge cast on him and be able to use that skill like an expert. Need Disable Device? Well thankfully Gogthart the Splintering Torment learned basic lockpicking, let me cast this spell on him and that trap will be dealt with in a jiffy.
Being separate has tons of benefits. Namely action economy. Mr. Synthesist needs a couple of rounds to get off his buffs. Mr. Vanilla just needs initiative. You can banish mr. eidolon but the summoner just shrugs and drops 1d4+1 fiendish Allosauruses on your head. The synthesist can do this as well, granted, but vanilla summoner tends to be less exposed as a result.
Then of course you get force multipliers like Bardic Song, Blessing of Fervor, Haste, Good Hope, Aura of Justice. A vanilla summoner gets twice the benefit.
As Krispy said you're playing two 80% characters but 160% is still better than 120%. :)
And honestly, we're not even at the tip of the crazy iceberg. Delve deeper, stare into the pit long enough and the Master Summoner stares right back...
And in the end I'm not saying the synthesist is not a good character. Because they are. But when I sit down and compare them to the utter devastation other characters can cause? Well, then they're just good, not amazing.
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I agree for the record that all summoners are insane, and all of the Synth/Master/standard are abusive. I was just pointing out why the Synth was insane; and the only answer is loss of vulnerability for the caster and to a lesser extent the eidolon. It's still a far overpowered class; I value synth highest because it removes the one potential weakness.
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That's the issue I'm having no one's pointed out what a synthesist has over a normal summoner.Perception. And quite of a bit of durability (lacking a weak link) but I still agree action-economy favors the summoner. But for an example of what I mean, consider the following.
Normal Summoners are like (and this is an example) having two characters at 80% effectiveness... the eidolon doesn't overshadow a good fighter, and the summoner is in a support role generally and no one is horrifically overshadowed by either of them, so your party doesn't perceive being outclassed by the summoner player.
The Synthesist is not as good as the Summoner technically, but from the rest of the table's viewpoint, you're still sitting there playing a character who's 120% as good as anyone else, who's able to adapt to any situation on the fly, and who can be like, "Oh yeah, I can solve this problem!" at the drop of a hat. And its 'your character' is better than 'their character' to appearances at the point.
So while I could see a Summoner being fine in a party dynamic situation, the Synthesist tends to stick out as the guy who can solve all the problems.
i disagree with you, im playing a fighter 1/wizard 1, the guy next to me was a summoner 2 synthesist. he hits for (1d6+4)x2 i hit for (2d6+2)x2. we both cast spells, but im casting on a wizards spells list hes on a summoner list. the only aspect of his character that is superior to mine is skill points, but i have all of my basis covered in that respect. i took all relevant knowledge skills, spell crafting, survival and a trait that gives perception as a class skill and i still have an extra skill point that i needed to assign. the only skills my character doesn't have are the skills used for altering an npc's mood, but that was by choice. synthesist summoners are good, don't get me wrong,but they aren't taking any position over or hogging the spot light in any aspect of the game.
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I'd really like to DPR Olympics you; build a fighter, any level. I'll match you with a Synthasists. Without even taking into consideration I am a caster that starts with 18-20 Cha and has a bevy of buffs, I should be able to beat your AC (after about level 5), damage, and so similar tricks (like if you build a trip-fighter I'll build a Trip-synth). It's almost too easy.
We'll start here
Synth Half-elf (20 point, you can up or lower this)Str: 7 (16 as biped)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (12 as biped)
Con: 14 (13 as biped)
Chr: 19And we'll build his evolutions etc based on the level you would like (and style). Keep things Core, and we can even keep PFS legal (where I cannot take monster feats). I believe I can show you that on the combat side alone I can win, then we'll add in I have great spells and better saves later.
Edit: and yes, amazing durability is the key to the synth. Dumping dex and Str, then ending up with a 30 AC and 28 Str at 8th. In a standard synth/Eidilon situation the vulnerability of the synth is often what prevents them from staying together. HP are another key, the eidilon weakness is often attributed to its low HP; the synth does not have this issue (he gets his HP and the Eidilon's as a bonus; effectively making him the highest hp in the game); and dumping dex isn't smart. Note on the synth I won't dump Con still. But the end result comes out more survivable but not quite as powerful (1 action instead of 2; no attack and buff same round).
Indeed a synthesist is quite durable but there are some issues with this idea.
1st: A synthesist doesn't gain his Eidolons HP he gains it as temporary HP. Which can only be healed by spells that only he has. So he's already blowing spells/wands on keeping that part of himself healed.
2nd: There's also tons of ways to mitigate an eidolons low HP. Toughness, for example. Or evolution points into CON. Lifelink is another decent one (and I'd like to point out the same method the synthesist uses...
TarkXT, you beautiful creature, I forgot to consider this! Even though an eidolon can't use armor, it doesn't stop it from using everything else. Wondrous items, wands, etc. I feel stupid now.
That's probably the only drawback an eidolon has, however - it can't gain class levels.... or can it? It has the intelligence necessary to equip wondrous items, weapons, and use magic devices, etc. I wonder if that would be too much to ask :) ?
On a note more related to the actual topic, I can see it now: a narcissistic ninny of a summoner whose eidolon is an idealized version of himself, down to each item (cept the light armor of course).
i disagree with you, im playing a fighter 1/wizard 1, the guy next to me was a summoner 2 synthesist. he hits for (1d6+4)x2 i hit for (2d6+2)x2. we both cast spells, but im casting on a wizards spells list hes on a summoner list. the only aspect of his character that is superior to mine is skill points, but i have all of my basis covered in that respect. i took all relevant knowledge skills, spell crafting, survival and a trait that gives perception as a class skill and i still have an extra skill point that i needed to assign. the only skills my character doesn't have are the skills used for altering an npc's mood, but that was by choice. synthesist summoners are good, don't get me wrong,but they aren't taking any position over or hogging the spot light in any aspect of the game.
I'm confused. His BAB should be better than yours, he should have double your hitdice, he should have better stats for fighting, and he should have a greater number of spells per day as you do. Plus he has Evasion, Darvision, etc. as fringe benefits.
Thats just hte tip of the iceberg, too.
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Wait, why does the fighter 1/wiz 1 have 2 attacks
gravity bow archer
And why didn't the summoner take a 3rd attack
because 3 attacks, 2 of them at a -5 to hit and only 50% strength, isn't very strong.
i think we both had a +6 to attack which means he would have 1 primary at full strength and 2 secondary at a -5 to hit and 50% strength, which would pretty much only hit an ac of 17 on a 16+, not really worth it if you ask me. not to mention even if he did hit his damage would only be 4d6+8, only +4 higher then my character, and thats only because the lucky sob rolled an 18 strength while i only have a 14.
because 3 attacks, 2 of them at a -5 to hit and only 50% strength, isn't very strong.
And also wrong. The -5 to hit is gone last I checked. Unless I'm missing soethin. I was always fuzzy about that rule.
Wait, why does the fighter 1/wiz 1 have 2 attacksgravity bow archer
And why didn't the summoner take a 3rd attackbecause 3 attacks, 2 of them at a -5 to hit and only 50% strength, isn't very strong.
i think we both had a +6 to attack which means he would have 1 primary at full strength and 2 secondary at a -5 to hit and 50% strength, which would pretty much only hit an ac of 17 on a 16+, not really worth it if you ask me. not to mention even if he did hit his damage would only be 4d6+8, only +4 higher then my character, and thats only because the lucky sob rolled an 18 strength while i only have a 14.
It sounds like your buddy built a really bad Eidolon. There's no reason not to have 3 primary attacks from Level 1, or a big potent two handed attack and a secondary attack to go with.
Also, I dont get what rolled stats have to do with a Synthesist...
Option C:
1: Fluff/Stat your summon to be a humanoid in a suit of armor.
2: Be Iron Man
3: ???
4: Profit.
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First, if he takes bite evolution, he gets full Str on all attacks (as has been stated). Also, the 18 Str is a waste of a slot, he gets the eidilons Str (which granted should also be 18). And where did your 2nd attack come from.
With evolutions: extra Str, improved natural, bite
He should be +6 with each attach for d6+4 / d4+4/d4+4
You should be (Str 14) +3 to hit for 2d6+3 (or +2 for 2d6+6 if PA)
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I'm confused. His BAB should be better than yours, he should have double your hitdice, he should have better stats for fighting, and he should have a greater number of spells per day as you do. Plus he has Evasion, Darvision, etc. as fringe benefits.
Thats just hte tip of the iceberg, too.
you are confused, his bab is +1 higher, and at max level of 12 we will have the same bab. he has 2 more hp then i do but that irrelevant seeing as though a wand of cure lite wounds that needs no umd (thank you PFS) and im a ranged character while he is melee. he has no more spells per day then i do, unless you count summon monster as a spell like, wizzards get a bonded object and favored school remember? evasion is nice but its better to be away from aoe spell completely imo. darkvision? who doesn't have that?
but you're missing my point. i was just using my character as an example of my experience, not trying to tell you that my character is a god among scrubs or anything like that. it still stands, to me anyway, they are not broken. easy to make work but not broken or "OP" as people like to put it.
I'm confused. His BAB should be better than yours, he should have double your hitdice, he should have better stats for fighting, and he should have a greater number of spells per day as you do. Plus he has Evasion, Darvision, etc. as fringe benefits.
Thats just hte tip of the iceberg, too.
you are confused, his bab is +1 higher, and at max level of 12 we will have the same bab. we have the same HP as a result of random ness he has 2 more hp then i do but that irrelevant seeing as though a wand of cure lite wounds that needs no umd (thank you PFS) and im a ranged character while he is melee. he has no more spells per day then i do, unless you count summon monster as a spell like, wizzards get a bonded object and favored school remember? evasion is nice but its better to be away from aoe spell completely imo. darkvision? who doesn't have that?
but you're missing my point. i was just using my character as an example of my experience not trying to tell you that my character is a god among scrubs or anything like that. it still stands, to me anyway, they are not broken. easy to make work but not broken or "OP" as people like to put it.
At level 12, the fighter/wiz split will have 3rd level spells, the summoner will have 4th level spells which sometimes replicate 5-6th level spells.
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First, if he takes bite evolution, he gets full Str on all attacks (as has been stated). Also, the 18 Str is a waste of a slot, he gets the eidilons Str (which granted should also be 18). And where did your 2nd attack come from.
With evolutions: extra Str, improved natural, bite
He should be +6 with each attach for d6+4 / d4+4/d4+4
You should be (Str 14) +3 to hit for 2d6+3 (or +2 for 2d6+6 if PA)
oh i see bite + claws if he has a bipedal eddilon claws stay as a primary attack. in 3.5 you couldnt have 2 different primary attacks. ill tell him about that next time i see him.
At level 12, the fighter/wiz split will have 3rd level spells, the summoner will have 4th level spells which sometimes replicate 5-6th level spells.
youre making the assumption im not going arcane archer or eldritch knight, even arcane trickster is a possibility.
youre making the assumption im not going arcane archer or eldritch knight, even arcane trickster is a possibility.At level 12, the fighter/wiz split will have 3rd level spells, the summoner will have 4th level spells which sometimes replicate 5-6th level spells.
Well with EK, that's just the strength of the wizard list that's pulling him ahead, not the ability to beat things down.
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Well with EK, that's just the strength of the wizard list that's pulling him ahead, not the ability to beat things down.youre making the assumption im not going arcane archer or eldritch knight, even arcane trickster is a possibility.At level 12, the fighter/wiz split will have 3rd level spells, the summoner will have 4th level spells which sometimes replicate 5-6th level spells.
nah im building a switch hitter, spells are just as powerful (well some people will disagree) as my ranged damage, rapid + many + haste + 2 base attacks, each one doing 3d6+what ever my additional modifiers are for magic, composite, and feats. so i will keep stride with fighters and still cast well.... wait back on topic!!
summoners are just like every other class in this game, they have their strong points but so do: fighters, barbarians, clerics, wizards and sorcerers, and so on. I can state a case where any class in the game is broken as all hell at level 10-20, some classes are just more obvious.
I can state a case where any class in the game is broken as all hell at level 10-20, some classes are just more obvious.
Do Rogues.
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They are, but they have a high enough damage to overcome DR; and even post-DR they'll outdamage anything else. DR hurts everyone (well, not pallies for evil), the summon simply has the high static # to bypass.
And what is the monster doing back? They have AC 39 @ 10. And solid saves (+12/+11/+14 with a +1 save ioun stone).
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Well, the issue is nobody else can:
*fly
*have AC 39 (or higher with ioun stones/rings if you care)
*get reach on all attacks (15 foot on bite)
*deal damage on that scale
*get the hp equiv of a barbarian (100 + 71 temp)
*can fall back as a great buffer
*Get free trip attacks each round (my build is a tripper)
At level 10. Look for the "optimizing synthasizer thread" if you want to see the build; this isn't level 20 nonsense.
A good druid can do most, if not all, of that. True, they don't get to merge with their companion, but action-economy and DPR favor being separate regardless; so not much of a weakness.
A good druid can do some of that; not all. For examples of things they can't do, at least not easily though...
AC: Druids, from everything I've ever seen, have a heck of a time with maintaining a decent AC.
Fly/Pounce/Reach/Trip are all exclusive to one another for the most part. Do any forms have more than one of these abilities? An Eidolon can have all of them, at once.
HP: Hmm. Actually, druids definately dont get any advantage here. At all.
Buffs: Druids get decent buffs for themselves and their animal companions. What do they get for the party again? Not Haste for one. I can't really think of any...
Hmm. Wait, so which of these things can a druid reproduce? One or two independant abilities?