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There are some needles in the game that you put in the brain of a corpse so that it dies the moment it is reincarnated.
So... preserve the body with [i]gentle repose[/b] but fill with nasty needles.
If your suicide returns to life he, um, doesn't.
Repeat eternally.
Reincarnate makes a new body. Said new body does not even bother to get the race right, I highly doubt it would replicate the needles.
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Reincarnate makes a new body. Said new body does not even bother to get the race right, I highly doubt it would replicate the needles.There are some needles in the game that you put in the brain of a corpse so that it dies the moment it is reincarnated.
So... preserve the body with [i]gentle repose[/b] but fill with nasty needles.
If your suicide returns to life he, um, doesn't.
Repeat eternally.
Reincarnate has a fixed one-week window.
Can we keep the death a secret for a week?
Only as a monk, or any character with improved unarmed strike.
Assuming you did, you could start dealing lethal damage to yourself.
Anyone can deal lethal damage with unarmed strike. You only take a -4 penalty on attack rolls if you do not have improved unarmed strike while doing so.
Of course, the average Barbarian probably lacks the knowledge to recognize the permanency effect in order to sunder it.
For the barbarian it doesn't matter which part he sunders -- without the spell the demiplane ends. So if he sunders the spell that created the demiplane the demiplane is permanently gone... just like any permanent spell.
Depending upon the GM in question there is one old saying that holds true:
"Chanting Hastur ends games faster."
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Of course, the average Barbarian probably lacks the knowledge to recognize the permanency effect in order to sunder it.For the barbarian it doesn't matter which part he sunders -- without the spell the demiplane ends. So if he sunders the spell that created the demiplane the demiplane is permanently gone... just like any permanent spell.
I was planning to say that would be up to GM interpretation, as the spell that creates it specifically lists the abilities that can destroy it, so whether Spell Sunder superseded that or not would be up to the GM.
However, while double checking Spell Sunder I noticed it is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not function on a dead magic plane. So unless you have some way of interacting with the plane without being on it: Check.
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Of course, the average Barbarian probably lacks the knowledge to recognize the permanency effect in order to sunder it.For the barbarian it doesn't matter which part he sunders -- without the spell the demiplane ends. So if he sunders the spell that created the demiplane the demiplane is permanently gone... just like any permanent spell.I was planning to say that would be up to GM interpretation, as the spell that creates it specifically lists the abilities that can destroy it, so whether Spell Sunder superseded that or not would be up to the GM.
However, while double checking Spell Sunder I noticed it is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not function on a dead magic plane. So unless you have some way of interacting with the plane without being on it: Check.
BARBARIAN AM DOING THIS BEFORE. AM EXPLAIN AGAIN. AM HAVING REACH WEAPON, AM NEEDING GATE SPELL TO PLANE, AND AM SUNDER PLANE THROUGH GATE LIKE AM SUNDERING ANTIMAGIC FIELD WHILE OUTSIDE ANTIMAGIC FIELD.
AM TAKE MANY TRIES TO GET PLANE INSTEAD OF GATE BY ACCIDENT, BUT AM ONLY REALLY NEED THREE. REST OF TRIES AM TO REDUCE CASTY TO TEARS BECAUSE CASTY TEARS AM LIKE CURE CRITICAL WOUNDS POTION TO BARBARIAN.
AM NEED FINESSE, BUT BARBARIAN AM GREATEST AT ALL ALWAYS, AM INCLUDING FINESSE.
AM NEVER TAKE WEAPON FINESSE THOUGH, AM WASTE OF FEETS.
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Of course, the average Barbarian probably lacks the knowledge to recognize the permanency effect in order to sunder it.For the barbarian it doesn't matter which part he sunders -- without the spell the demiplane ends. So if he sunders the spell that created the demiplane the demiplane is permanently gone... just like any permanent spell.I was planning to say that would be up to GM interpretation, as the spell that creates it specifically lists the abilities that can destroy it, so whether Spell Sunder superseded that or not would be up to the GM.
However, while double checking Spell Sunder I noticed it is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not function on a dead magic plane. So unless you have some way of interacting with the plane without being on it: Check.
BARBARIAN AM DOING THIS BEFORE. AM EXPLAIN AGAIN. AM HAVING REACH WEAPON, AM NEEDING GATE SPELL TO PLANE, AND AM SUNDER PLANE THROUGH GATE LIKE AM SUNDERING ANTIMAGIC FIELD WHILE OUTSIDE ANTIMAGIC FIELD.
AM TAKE MANY TRIES TO GET PLANE INSTEAD OF GATE BY ACCIDENT, BUT AM ONLY REALLY NEED THREE. REST OF TRIES AM TO REDUCE CASTY TO TEARS BECAUSE CASTY TEARS AM LIKE CURE CRITICAL WOUNDS POTION TO BARBARIAN.
AM NEED FINESSE, BUT BARBARIAN AM GREATEST AT ALL ALWAYS, AM INCLUDING FINESSE.
AM NEVER TAKE WEAPON FINESSE THOUGH, AM WASTE OF FEETS.
The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.
And once again. Check.
Edit: And as to the original problem, if you wanted the simplest solution to making sure nothing could get into or out of your demiplane, you could see to it that the outer gate is destroyed behind you after you deposit the prisoner. It will cost you the permanency for each such person you need to deposit, along with the time and spell slots to set up the next demiplane, but nothing short of divine intervention will be able to retrieve the resident.
I was planning to say that would be up to GM interpretation, as the spell that creates it specifically lists the abilities that can destroy it, so whether Spell Sunder superseded that or not would be up to the GM.However, while double checking Spell Sunder I noticed it is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not function on a dead magic plane. So unless you have some way of interacting with the plane without being on it: Check.
The portal is part of the spell. As such that's all I need to sunder it from the outside, in fact since I have improved unarmed strike I can sunder it simply by walking into it while raging (basically).
Please note that touching or not doesn't really matter, as you have to step through to be transported -- which I plainly didn't do yet.
The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.
And once again. Check.
Edit: And as to the original problem, if you wanted the simplest solution to making sure nothing could get into or out of your...
AM LIKE BARBARIAN SAID. TAKE LIKE, THREE TRIES TO GET TIMING RIGHT. 'INSTANTLY' AM HARD TO READY ACTION FOR, BUT BARBARIAN AM FIND WAY.
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I was planning to say that would be up to GM interpretation, as the spell that creates it specifically lists the abilities that can destroy it, so whether Spell Sunder superseded that or not would be up to the GM.However, while double checking Spell Sunder I noticed it is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not function on a dead magic plane. So unless you have some way of interacting with the plane without being on it: Check.
The portal is part of the spell. As such that's all I need to sunder it from the outside, in fact since I have improved unarmed strike I can sunder it simply by walking into it while raging (basically).
Please note that touching or not doesn't really matter, as the sunder happens regardless, it can't be interrupted.
The portal is from a separate casting and therefore a different spell. The spell is also instantaneous when cast to modify the plane, and thus not an ongoing spell effect.
The portal is from a separate casting and therefore a different spell. The spell is also instantaneous when cast to modify the plane, and thus not an ongoing spell effect.
Incorrect, the spell that modified the original spell was instantaneous -- but the spell that was modified isn't.
The gate isn't a new spell -- it's a modification of the existing spell, as such it's part of the existing spell and therefore a perfectly valid target of sundering the entire spell.
And even if you were right -- it creates a gate... as in the spell gate... as in something that can be sundered by spell sunder.
Keep trying though.
And once again. Check.Edit: And as to the original problem, if you wanted the simplest solution to making sure nothing could get into or out of your demiplane, you could see to it that the outer gate is destroyed behind you after you deposit the prisoner. It will cost you the permanency for each such person you need to deposit, along with the time and spell slots to set up the next demiplane, but nothing short of divine intervention will be able to retrieve the resident
^_^ I realize this. However, since I'ma Really cheap arse, and half the reason this method was conceived was to have something I could Re-use... I figured I could just Suppress the portal itself with a continuous Antimagic field effect (Maybe from an item hidden away)...
Again, it Really does raise question as to whether or not Discern Location would be able to peer into the demiplane... but that's a debate for THe Other Thread, Here.
As for the whole Timeless planar trait, which seems to be 90% of the controversy Elsewhere on this thread... I'll make another Rules forum thread asking about it (And therefore whether you can Suffocate to death), but it Really does seem to be up to the caster and the GM's discretion, what can be and can't be made 'timelessly diminished' (I.E. Hunger, age, etc.)
Okay... Back to the original argument.
I've been assuming the following for the longest while:
While you technically Cast the spell Permanency to raise the duration of that section of the demiplane from "X days" to "Permanent", I don't believe there is actually a Permanency effect that can be dispelled or sundered; It has simply altered the duration of Create Demiplane. Regardless, I strongly believe that Permanency is being cast Within the Demiplane itself, even if it Was able to be sundered or dispelled.
When you first cast Create Demiplane, it creates an extradimensional space, that's placed on the Astral. While most other such spaces, such as that within a Bag of Holding, is reliant on a certain anchor, I'm not sure Create Demiplane is; Therefore, What Exactly are you trying to sunder/dispel? How can you attempt to target the Plane itself? At the very most, you can disable the Planar Portal leading to the plane (if any), so far as I'm concerned. This needs to be clarified. Say I had no portal leading there anymore... How or where would you go about targeting the plane then?
Gm is always final say. I'm proceeding with the rules according to RAW. Divine Intervention is the GM's say. At the very least, I'd say we debate this thing out as far as it can possibly go Without a the need of GM intervention.. XD It's just a Theory debate, if you want to look at it that way.
Sigh -- honestly if we are going to do this you really should read the magic section again:
Permanent
The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.
The spell doesn't create a non-magical something like say an instantaneous creation spell does, it creates something for as long as it isn't disrupted[/b]. Note that permanency specifically points this out too.
Your plane does not exist without the spell to support it, this is stated in the the very spell, which means that if the spell goes out so does the plane, without any extra effects or fanciness.
It really is as simple as reading the magic section to see where the vulnerabilities are for this.
Please note that nothing in pathfinder connects the astral plane to extra-dimensional spaces [i]except the specific cast of bags of holding and portal holes and that's only when the two interact.
Sigh -- honestly if we are going to do this you really should read the magic section again:
Permanent
The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.
I'm assuming, in this case, "The spell" refers to the spell Targeted by Permanency, and not the Permanency effect. Probably not your point... but anyways.
Generally speaking, I *believe* that most Permanent effects have a particular Source, or Origin... A place you actually target, in order to dispel it completely.
For example. Cursed Earth. Do you target Anywhere within a 1-mile radius... or do you target the very Center?
Same concept; I'm assuming you need to be Within the Demiplane itself, in order to Target it, to dispel it.
I'm assuming, in this case, "The spell" refers to the spell Targeted by Permanency, and not the Permanency effect. Probably not your point... but anyways.Generally speaking, I *believe* that most Permanent effects have a particular Source, or Origin... A place you actually target, in order to dispel it completely.
For example. Cursed Earth. Do you target Anywhere within a 1-mile radius... or do you target the very Center?
Same concept; I'm assuming you need to be Within the Demiplane itself, in order to Target it, to dispel it.
Then you are understanding incorrectly (though not a horrible thought pattern) -- there isn't a 'center' to a spell unless the spell specifies such -- the spell is in effect (and vulnerable) anywhere the spell is having an effect (after all if it wasn't there it couldn't have an effect there).
There is no 'point of origin' for cursed earth -- you can get the spell from any point that is covered by the spell.
Basically put in a very crude way consider the spell in this case kind of like you would a creature -- the area of the spell is the spell -- like a creature you don't have to attack the center.
EDIT FOR QUOTE:
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
The portal is from a separate casting and therefore a different spell. The spell is also instantaneous when cast to modify the plane, and thus not an ongoing spell effect.Incorrect, the spell that modified the original spell was instantaneous -- but the spell that was modified isn't.
The gate isn't a new spell -- it's a modification of the existing spell, as such it's part of the existing spell and therefore a perfectly valid target of sundering the entire spell.
And even if you were right -- it creates a gate... as in the spell gate... as in something that can be sundered by spell sunder.
Keep trying though.
You are bolding quite a bit and sound angry. In any case, you are mistaken. Spell sunder would not work against a demiplane from within or outside the plane. See this line from the spell:
The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage's disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.
And this line from spell sunder indicating that it is a dispel effect:
If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled
Then you are understanding incorrectly (though not a horrible thought pattern) -- there isn't a 'center' to a spell unless the spell specifies such -- the spell is in effect (and vulnerable) anywhere the spell is having an effect (after all if it wasn't there it couldn't have an effect there).
There is no 'point of origin' for cursed earth -- you can get the spell from any point that is covered by the spell.
Then by your definition... You could literally cast a Dispel or Disjunction, from Anywhere in Existence; Any Plane that touches the Astral, and they ALL do.... to dispel the effect.
...Somehow, I think you're wrong.
I asked about the cursed earth, and got a far different result.
...If you'd like to discuss it, should we move it to the Rules forum?
You are bolding quite a bit and sound angry. In any case, you are mistaken. Spell sunder would not work against a demiplane from within or outside the plane. See this line from the spell:
The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage's disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.And this line from spell sunder indicating that it is a dispel effect:
If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled
Bolding for emphasis not anger.
I am not targeting the plane -- I'm targeting the spell that holds the plane there.
When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw.
Sure I can't dispel the plane -- but I can end the spell that would take me there (the gate).
Which honestly would be the best way to seal it forever however even the creator would never be able to return or escape if there then (since you can't gate to a place with nul-magic or gate out of one either).
This leads us to a bigger question.
If a Barbarian was to sunder the plane and succeed by LESS than ten, the effect is suppressed for one round. Nothing says it can't be suppressed.
What happens when you suppress a plane for a round?
I am not targeting the plane -- I'm targeting the spell that holds the plane there.Sure I can't dispel the plane -- but I can end the spell that would take me there (the gate).
Which honestly would be the best way to seal it forever however even the creator would never be able to return or escape if there then (since you can't gate to a place with nul-magic or gate out of one either).
Correct. ^_^
For the Gate anyways. Planar Portal, rather, the Create Demiplane's version of a Permanent Gate...
Anyways. Please do specify; How and where do you believe You would need to target, in order to dispel a Demiplane effect?
Then you are understanding incorrectly (though not a horrible thought pattern) -- there isn't a 'center' to a spell unless the spell specifies such -- the spell is in effect (and vulnerable) anywhere the spell is having an effect (after all if it wasn't there it couldn't have an effect there).
There is no 'point of origin' for cursed earth -- you can get the spell from any point that is covered by the spell.
Then by your definition... You could literally cast a Dispel or Disjunction, from Anywhere in Existence; Any Plane that touches the Astral, and they ALL do.... to dispel the effect.
No you simply misunderstand what I am saying.
You target a polymorph spell -- you just need to target the spell and have line of effect and be within the range of dispel magic.
Line of effect is established by the outside edge of the spell effect -- the circumference of an ice storm spell for example -- if that is within the range of your dispel magic then you can dispel the ice storm spell. You don't have to target the 'center' of the ice storm spell -- just like you don't have to reach to the center of a large creature in order to stab it with a sword, you just have to be able to reach the edge of it (again like stabbing a large creature while standing beside it).
This leads us to a bigger question.
If a Barbarian was to sunder the plane and succeed by LESS than ten, the effect is suppressed for one round. Nothing says it can't be suppressed.
What happens when you suppress a plane for a round?
That's... actually pretty brilliant. ^_^
Again though, How are you targeting the Demiplane, and not the portal?
This leads us to a bigger question.
If a Barbarian was to sunder the plane and succeed by LESS than ten, the effect is suppressed for one round. Nothing says it can't be suppressed.
What happens when you suppress a plane for a round?
The area of the spell would be removed and the creatures in it shunted to other parts of it until such a time as the suppression is removed.
The area of the spell would be removed and the creatures in it shunted to other parts of it until such a time as the suppression is removed.
The demiplane doesn't particularly need one or more castings' worth of area; It could simply be a single casting's worth... I think the question was referring to a situation like That.
Ready an action as a standard to spell sunder the plane the second I move through the gate.
Move through the gate as the move action. The instantaneous gate teleport and the instantaneous readied action go off at the same time, sunder the plane without actually standing in it mid-transit.
Then you get shunted to... somewhere.
This leads us to a bigger question.
If a Barbarian was to sunder the plane and succeed by LESS than ten, the effect is suppressed for one round. Nothing says it can't be suppressed.
What happens when you suppress a plane for a round?
That's... actually pretty brilliant. ^_^
Again though, How are you targeting the Demiplane, and not the portal?
Let me put it this way -- how do you affect a creature using a tower shield for cover with a spell?
The spell is 'attending' the entirety of the plane -- we know that without the spell the plane dissolves. Therefore anywhere the plane is the spell is too, also the plane has connection points to other planes -- if you can locate these connection points you could use them to target the spell (much like shooting at the outside of a box).
Basically put the spell just like any other spell that is on an object or place -- wherever that place or object is you will find the spell there too.
Ready an action as a standard to spell sunder the plane the second I move through the gate.
Move through the gate as the move action. The instantaneous gate teleport and the instantaneous readied action go off at the same time, sunder the plane without actually standing in it mid-transit.
Then you get shunted to... somewhere.
Previous posts state that Sunder is not among the effects listed, needed to close a Demiplane... but that aside... I actually know very little about Sunder.
Is it a Supernatural or Spell-like effect of any sort, or something that could otherwise be suppressed by antimagic?
The demiplane doesn't particularly need one or more castings' worth of area; It could simply be a single casting's worth... I think the question was referring to a situation like That.
The area of the spell would be removed and the creatures in it shunted to other parts of it until such a time as the suppression is removed.
Spell states that if the plane dissolves because the duration is up (which is what dispelling something does -- treats it like the spell duration is up) then creatures are shunted either to the rest of the plane (if possible) or the nearest plane (usually astral, ethereal or material).
So if you suppress the spell holding up the demiplane and it only had a single casting and thereby collapsed the demiplane everyone on it would go to the nearest plane (which I would argue is the one the gate is on).
Ready an action as a standard to spell sunder the plane the second I move through the gate.
Move through the gate as the move action. The instantaneous gate teleport and the instantaneous readied action go off at the same time, sunder the plane without actually standing in it mid-transit.
Then you get shunted to... somewhere.
Previous posts state that Sunder is not among the effects listed, needed to close a Demiplane... but that aside... I actually know very little about Sunder.
Is it a Supernatural or Spell-like effect of any sort, or something that could otherwise be suppressed by antimagic?
It's a (Su) ability, and it came out AFTER the Create Demiplane spell. I'd personally say that since the Demiplane isn't immune to being suppressed, it likewise wouldn't be immune to Spell Sunder since if the weaker effect works then the stronger one should too (Don't punish a player for succeeding more and all that). YMMV.
Anyways, this is why you ready the action so that you're doing it while the Gate is transporting you. The gate's transportation is instantaneous, but the readied action goes off at the exact time the transportation goes off as well, which means the Sunder would also be instantaneous and occur while traveling, but before you had arrived if that was how you worded your readied action.
PHYSICS!!! \o/
Let me put it this way -- how do you affect a creature using a tower shield for cover with a spell?The spell is 'attending' the entirety of the plane -- we know that without the spell the plane dissolves. Therefore anywhere the plane is the spell is too, also the plane has connection points to other planes -- if you can locate these connection points you could use them to target the spell (much like shooting at the outside of a box).
Basically put the spell just like any other spell that is on an object or place -- wherever that place or object is you will find the spell there too.
...I cast Create Lesser Demiplane.
I go into my demiplane.
I cast Create Lesser Demiplane, to create a second demiplane.
I make the Second demiplane permanent, creating a Portal to the material realm.
...By your rules... What happens?
Even though the spell has a Range of 0 feet... The spell itself specifies that when it Creates the demiplane, it is a demiplane that exists Within the Astral.
...Therefore, logically, I'd assume you'd need to be able to Travel to the astral, Locate this new plane, and Dispel it from There, by your rules...
However...The Demiplane is also an Extradimensional space:
"These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension."
...I'm willing to argue, then, that it would not even be able to be Located, in the Astral, since it has No dimension.
It's a (Su) ability, and it came out AFTER the Create Demiplane spell. I'd personally say that since the Demiplane isn't immune to being suppressed, it likewise wouldn't be immune to Spell Sunder since if the weaker effect works then the stronger one should too (Don't punish a player for succeeding more and all that). YMMV.
Anyways, this is why you ready the action so that you're doing it while the Gate is transporting you. The gate's transportation is instantaneous, but the readied action goes off at the exact time the transportation goes off as well, which means the Sunder would also be instantaneous and occur while traveling, but before you had arrived if that was how you worded your readied action.
PHYSICS!!! \o/
Not bad. ^_^
Had I been a DM, I wouldn't really allow it... since Any part of you that wasn't in the Material realm, is inside the Dead Magic demiplane, with absolutely No space between ( 2d window )... but, hell, if it works, it works! ^_^
...If you could think of a Second or Tertiary way to Sunder the Create Demiplane effect, I'd be honored to hear =D
Don't confuse range with effect, range zero means it has to be cast where you are.
Now normally it's impossible to reach another plane by walking -- we all know that, but the gates and junctions do exist, and odd things are known for happening at such points. I never said it would be easy to find the outside, or to find a junction point, only possible, and a mage that puts a gate on it, just makes it infinity easier to do.
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Not bad. ^_^
Had I been a DM, I wouldn't really allow it... since Any part of you that wasn't in the Material realm, is inside the Dead Magic demiplane, with absolutely No space between ( 2d window )... but, hell, if it works, it works! ^_^
...If you could think of a Second or Tertiary way to Sunder the Create Demiplane effect, I'd be honored to hear =D
I... actually have an idea. 'Any matter that goes in the gate gets transported.'
I have a build for an Archer/Barbarian that uses Spell Sunder with a Bow (Because 3rd level Fighter (Archers) can use their bow to Sunder and being able to spell sunder a Wind Wall or Entropic Shield will make casters cry).
Target a bow at the gate. Fire the bow at the gate. Spell Sunder the opposite side. The (Su) is happening outside the area, and the arrow goes in, and...
Well you'd have to beat the sunder check but...
I dunno. It's been awhile since I've had to think with portals.
Don't confuse range with effect, range zero means it has to be cast where you are.
Now normally it's impossible to reach another plane by walking -- we all know that, but the gates and junctions do exist, and odd things are known for happening at such points. I never said it would be easy to find the outside, or to find a junction point, only possible, and a mage that puts a gate on it, just makes it infinity easier to do.
The reason I bring up "range", is because, generally speaking, whatever spell you cast will have its origin on the point you select within that given range. A range of 0ft. kind of signifies that the origin is wherever you're standing... But the rest of the spell's description states otherwise.
I'm thinking Astral Projection Literally throws you onto the Astral, where you're Able to travel, walking or otherwise, to any other plane of existence touching. This, to me, would be the safest bet of actually Finding the demiplane by external means, if you're desiring to target the spell effect. However, that's put to debate because of the Extradimensional property; In otherwords, Even by the Astral, you'd probably never find it, since it has no shape or point (Not even in the First Dimension) in which it exists. It's not going to be a "bubble" like effect, that you step into to visit another plane of existence.
The Gate is its own effect, though... X_X And you can Select where to put it.
I assume the entire argument then leads back to Your ability to target the demiplane Through the placed gate.
Personally, I still say you're only capable of targeting the Gate itself. This might actually require research, or a Rules forum thread, to clarify though ^_^
I dunno. It's been awhile since I've had to think with portals.
Oh, I am SO creating a Portal gun now.
I understand that this is a fantasy game where magic can break any and every law of known physics and not bat an eyelash, but in this instance, since we are considering the effects of timelessness, it is necessary to also consider the facts about what we know of time.
time/tīm/
Noun:
The indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.
Time is defined by events that happen in sequence, so "timeless" is a bit of a misnomer. Anything that happens, or even merely EXISTS in a given space is a part of time. Time cannot be removed from the equation. Timelessness in the context of the game, I suspect, is supposed to mean that the [demi-]plane itself is removed from the normal flow of time, perhaps moving in a perpendicular direction at a different velocity, perhaps so small as to be imperceptible.
There's probably something related to the space-time continuum, and the fabric of reality, and entropy, and all sorts of other theoretical concepts.
Quick side note: I'm not a physicist, but I had a passing fascination with black holes and the idea of faster than light travel in high school...
Abraham Spalding already pretty much said what I am trying to say, I'm just trying to make these details more pertinent. Time is a concept, not a quasi-tangible force that can be manipulated, like mana or ki. It is a vestigial method of measurement used to define the occurance of a given event. Therefore if there is anything going on, time exists.
If you toss a PC into a plane truly void of time, then they would be obliterated, by my reckoning. Nothing that goes there could ever be retrieved, including deities. Nothing exists there. Cthulhu himself would avoid the place. Because once something goes in, nothing happens, including escape. If you cannot enact a series of event leading to an escape because time doesn't exist, then you can't leave.
It's very existential to think about, really... Sorry I kinda ranted.
I understand that this is a fantasy game where magic can break any and every law of known physics and not bat an eyelash, but in this instance, since we are considering the effects of timelessness, it is necessary to also consider the facts about what we know of time.
Ah, yes... Timeless planar trait. ^_^
Alright. Before discussing any of the points mentioned above, I'd like to paste the definitions of the Trait itself, courtesy of the SRD...
Timeless
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
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The Astral Plane has the following traits:
Subjective Directional Gravity
Timeless: Age, hunger, thirst, afflictions (such as diseases, curses, and poisons), and natural healing don't function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.
Mildly Neutral-Aligned
Enhanced Magic: All spells and spell-like abilities used within the Astral Plane may be employed as if they were improved by the Quicken Spell or Quicken Spell-Like Ability feats. Already quickened spells and spell-like abilities are unaffected, as are spells from magic items. Spells so quickened are still prepared and cast at their unmodified level. As with the Quicken Spell feat, only one quickened spell or spell-like ability can be cast per round.
Above are Two quotes:
One that is the Timeless Planar trait, that may be selected courtesy of the Greater Create Demiplane spell,
Another that is an Example of this timeless trait: The 'timeless' nature of the Astral plane, as per pathfinder. And, yes, Time does occur normally there; it's just certain Effects of it (often tied to the Body) that are altered.
There are planes of existence, or demiplanes, where time Can be manipulated in a Relative flow: Erratic time, and Flowing time, namely. However, these are only present in Demiplanes, and (in the case of Erratic time), and the plane known as Limbo. Magic Can affect flow of time in a Demiplane created By magic... But the only other example of this is occurring naturally on a Plane of existence that is as close to the Edge of Reality as the soul can possibly travel =P
The debate on the Timeless planar trait is as follows:
For Roleplay purposes, a Timeless plane is exotic and attractive. In terms of realistic use, it gets a little confusing. Timeless planes are capable of supporting Magic with a set duration indefinitely. In the example of the Astral plane, Age can, as an example, be suppressed indefinitely... However, by most Every Single other magical alteration of natural aging, When a character's time comes, they still die.
The Astral, and Pugatory give specific examples of what the Timeless planar trait alters. It is, however debatable whether something Not mentioned ( say, the need to Breathe ) can be grouped with what Has been mentioned... ( Is the need to Breathe on par with the body's need for Food, and the effects of Aging? )
...Demiplanes can be Far more dangerous. For example, I'm planning to create my "Oubliette" prison demiplane Filled with Water, while still being Timeless. If someone who can't ordinarily breathe underwater stays there an hour, and leaves... Do they die of retroactive suffocation?
The First example of the Timeless planar trait is what a caster of Create Demiplane uses; And within the description itself, it states that conditions and effects altered by the Timeless planar trait "varies from plane to plane".
So then. Does a caster of Create Demiplane get to decide exactly what conditions are altered, in their Timeless demiplane?
Am I able to have someone in my plane Not die of suffocation, or starvation... And yet let them Age to death? Can I let them not age, or thirst, yet still have natural healing?
Granted the Create Demiplane spell does Not allow one to create a fully Morphic or Sentient plane (thus, any decision I make when assigning the Timeless trait, Sticks; I can't change it actively... ) ... How much control do I have?
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this but you could bite your own wrists and then you would subject to bleed damage even after you fell unconscious
Fast Healing = Goodbye Bleeding. ^_^
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this but you could bite your own wrists and then you would subject to bleed damage even after you fell unconsciousFast Healing = Goodbye Bleeding. ^_^
Citation?
Also: Fast Healing wouldn't work:
Timeless: Age, hunger, thirst, afflictions (such as diseases, curses, and poisons), and natural healing don't function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing.
Now if you only had some form of magic with which you could heal yourself... oh wait you turned magic off... how inconvenient.
Personally, I still say you're only capable of targeting the Gate itself. This might actually require research, or a Rules forum thread, to clarify though ^_^
Well even if we reduce it to simply destroying the gate that would be enough to keep you out of the prison (since you are only transported by the gate if you completely pass through it as pointed out above) and render the prison inaccessible to the maker of it since you can't gate to a plane with null magic (or plane shift, etc).
Personally the way I see it the gate is part of the spell that holds the demiplane together, and represents part of the effect of that spell (much the same way the weapon represents the greater magic weapon spell or a person represents the buffs cast on him), it modifies what is already there and is part of that.
Well even if we reduce it to simply destroying the gate that would be enough to keep you out of the prison (since you are only transported by the gate if you completely pass through it as pointed out above) and render the prison inaccessible to the maker of it since you can't gate to a plane with null magic (or plane shift, etc).Personally the way I see it the gate is part of the spell that holds the demiplane together, and represents part of the effect of that spell (much the same way the weapon represents the greater magic weapon spell or a person represents the buffs cast on him), it modifies what is already there and is part of that.
Again, you are Correct in saying that if you somehow manage to dispel the Gate effect, the demiplane is effectively lost =P And anyone inside it, with it... Unless the Soul is capable of escaping such a sealed plane, and the trapped person manages to commit suicide; That was the Entire point of this thread. Better safe than sorry.
...Anyhoot.
I can understand the Gate bit being interpreted as Part of a single whole spell, that is the original Create Demiplane... This is my interpretation:
No, the Gate is Not 'part of the spell that holds the demiplane together'... although Dispelling the Gate effectively results in the above. The Gate is part of its own spell; The spell that was used to bring it into existence, Appending it to the existing demiplane, which happens to take the form of an existing Gate. This functions as a permanent Gate spell, which would take the same effort to Dispel as the Greater Create Demiplane spell which brought it into existence. On the other hand, I could create the demiplane originally with Lesser Create Demiplane, and that spell represents the magical effect that created the Demiplane itself.
...Please, don't mind me, and the opposition XD. In this particular case, I can truly say that it's a matter of interpretation... And I have very little available that I could possibly use to refute your point of view. =P
Also: Fast Healing wouldn't work:Timeless: Age, hunger, thirst, afflictions (such as diseases, curses, and poisons), and natural healing don't function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing.Now if you only had some form of magic with which you could heal yourself... oh wait you turned magic off... how inconvenient.
THAT is the description of Timeless as per the Astral. Please see my post Just above, to discuss it. ^_^
...Also, Minor Positive-dominant planar trait grants Fast Healer 2 as an Extraordinary ability to all creatures within; Even to undead, I believe.
Edit: However, you actually seem to be Right... and it's something I never thought of:
" Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage) " (from Bleed Condition description )
Yeah... Not a Spell.
Will look into if Natural healing can stop a bleeding effect. Excuse me. ^_^
Edit 2: Unless the Create Demiplane spell that Creates the Minor Positive-Dominant trait actually counts...
Edit 3: Or the Entire Demiplane counts as a spell effect, for the purpose of it granting Natural Healing... XD
Well the spell that puts the gate there specifically states it modifies the original spell -- not that it creates its own effect.
Personally for me Timeless has to be tied to something:
For example:
Magic -- timeless
Biological functions -- timeless
Time passed compared to material plane -- timeless
IF I was a GM I would absolutely refuse for you to selectively apply timeless to biological functions -- it's all or nothing, either they don't have them or the do, you can't turn off the poison and still have the fast healing and what not (just as you can't simply selectively age some people on it and not others, or selectively dead magic it for others but not yourself).
However please note that this spell is fairly weird and each and every use must be permanencied in its own right.
Meaning the dead magic must be permanencied (that's going to be awkward).
The timeless must be permanencied.
The gate must be permanencied.
Size increases must be permanencied.
Adding water must be permanencied (if you go with that)
Making it minor positive-dominant must be permanencied.
Just going with the demiplane (once) timeless, gated, dead magic, and minor positive is 5 permanency spells you'll have to cast to get the plane and all the effects you want, and then whatever magics you use to secure the gate (which is left wide open just like any other gate spell).
You're looking at over 110k gold simply for the permanency spells.
Honestly this whole exercise points out something at the base of magic -- while it can do exceptional things, it is also exceptionally fragile and prone to breaking down.
Bane_Wraith you are a lot of fun with this and I would suggest have the right mind set to start studying alchemy and the various disciplines of metaphysics: Regardless of what you believe of it being bunk or not there is a huge amount of stuff there that can be really interesting to start spotting in the world as a whole (many times there is a relation between real world phenomena even if you don't see it as magic). Please note that originally Alchemy was about transforming yourself into a more perfect you (as was most metaphysics) and how the natural world interacts with itself.
For example the old Lead into Gold thing? Turns out they were right... sort of at least: Radioactive lead will degrade into gold (granted this takes longer than they wanted).
Krakens? Well we are starting to suspect that such creatures did exist and that squid the size of which we didn't think possible still exist.
Such things are readily noticeable for those willing to look at what is being said and what is actually on around them without simply dismissing it all as non-sense... it can lead one to wonder just what caused them to be so close to being right on so many different points.
Well the spell that puts the gate there specifically states it modifies the original spell -- not that it creates its own effect.
Personally for me Timeless has to be tied to something:
For example:
Magic -- timeless
Biological functions -- timeless
Time passed compared to material plane -- timelessIF I was a GM I would absolutely refuse for you to selectively apply timeless to biological functions -- it's all or nothing, either they don't have them or the do, you can't turn off the poison and still have the fast healing and what not (just as you can't simply selectively age some people on it and not others, or selectively dead magic it for others but not yourself).
However please note that this spell is fairly weird and each and every use must be permanencied in its own right.
Meaning the dead magic must be permanencied (that's going to be awkward).
The timeless must be permanencied.
The gate must be permanencied.
Size increases must be permanencied.
Adding water must be permanencied (if you go with that)
Making it minor positive-dominant must be permanencied.Just going with the demiplane (once) timeless, gated, dead magic, and minor positive is 5 permanency spells you'll have to cast to get the plane and all the effects you want, and then whatever magics you use to secure the gate (which is left wide open just like any other gate spell).
You're looking at over 110k gold simply for the permanency spells.
Honestly this whole exercise points out something at the base of magic -- while it can do exceptional things, it is also exceptionally fragile and prone to breaking down.
Bane_Wraith you are a lot of fun with this and I would suggest have the right mind set to start studying alchemy and the various disciplines of metaphysics: Regardless of what you believe of it being bunk or not there is a huge amount of stuff there that can be really interesting to start spotting in the world as a whole (many times there is a relation between real world...
...The only error here is that the Individual castings of Create Demiplane, for the purpose of creating these effects, are Instantaneous in duration... so (thank goddess) I don't need to Permanency them all; Just the 20k or so, for Making the plane (and maybe 66k for the permanent Antimagic needed to seal it off)... which is Thankfully still a cheap alternative to the Xk Black Sapphire (where X = HD of target creature) (and the 80k Mindblank needed to keep it from being found, once it's been filled) (The latter doesn't prevent Clones though.)
I accept your ruling, should you be GM. ^_^ (Although I still need to look into Fast Healing... )
Time Flow isn't considered altered from the Normal time flow, though, in a Timeless plane... so, that's not a worry... I can't Age someone to death That fast. XD
Alright. So... the only things that I personally haven't found a way to refute, are the Fast Healing, and the Gate... the former, because I need to research... The Latter, because the interpretation Can support the case. We'll have to see if you're only dispelling the Gate, or the Plane itself as well... but it's important to know, because Dispelling the plane means anyone trapped there suddenly gets shunted out. XD
Nya... ^_^
The Occult is a slightly different feeling and mindset, of course, to me. Creation is not the same as What can I do, while abiding by these set laws. Self-perfection is not the same as What can I do under these circumstances. But all of life tends to make good practice. ^_^
And everything I'm thinking of right now, is "According to the rules"... not "What can I perceive with and of my own soul, what awareness can I have of this multiverse, and what can I do with my own will"
Also, I've been getting WAY too insidious/evil, with Pathfinder, lately.. XD
EDIT: Oh... Also, did they find a way to Stabilize radioactively degrading lead as gold?
*really evil stuff*
Peeked back in to see this one still going... one thing, I'm not sure I wouldn't want to leave some obscure way out of your pet prison plane. Like the old saying has it "what comes around, goes around" (or was it vice versa? Whatever). It would be just like some heroic / villanous type to toss you in your own private hole and leave you there. Something to think about...
Peeked back in to see this one still going... one thing, I'm not sure I wouldn't want to leave some obscure way out of your pet prison plane. Like the old saying has it "what comes around, goes around" (or was it vice versa? Whatever). It would be just like some heroic / villanous type to toss you in your own private hole and leave you there. Something to think about...
Believe me, Any character that goes as far to do this, Including my own, deserves it <_<
GM: Congratulations. You discovered a way to torture someone for eternity, without chance of coming back unless they Kill themselves.
Do enjoy your new living quarters. Oh, and your Undead are a little pissed off, since you no longer have the magic to control them...
*Next Campaign*
GM: So, Who feels like taking down the Evil Undead Demigod? ^_^ Word has it, he went completely insane, when...
You can make this spell permanent with the permanency spell, at a cost of 22,500 gp. If you have cast create greater demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting’s area requires its own permanency spell.
You are right -- the individual side effects don't require their own permanency which makes sense since they modify the original spell. I was considering the other effects as an enlarging of the plane (simply not in 3-dimensional matters) but that requires more interpretation that is actually provided, and clearly states area so I would agree that's out.
Yeah we can turn lead into gold -- however it's so expensive to do so that it really isn't worth the time.
Something else that stick to the same principles is how it's much easier to turn gold into lead -- spiritually speaking it's easier to go downhill than up, turns out the same with gold and lead -- figures right?