You're all alone. You've no equipment with you. You're in an area of No magic, Timeless, and not even a physical wall or floor anywhere nearby. Hell, you've even got a few points of Fast Healing.
Can you commit suicide?
You're all alone. You've no equipment with you. You're in an area of No magic, Timelessness, and not even a physical wall or floor anywhere nearby. Hell, you've even got a few points of Fast Healing.Can you commit suicide?
I wouldn't call dying of thirst / starving to death suicide, but dead's dead. If you can move / think your metabolism is still burning energy and requiring water regardless of the state of time passage. My opinion on that of course, ymmv.
*edit* Of course if there is no motion / thought and you're just a statue, oh well, welcome to eternity.
I wouldn't call dying of thirst / starving to death suicide, but dead's dead. If you can move / think your metabolism is still burning energy and requiring water regardless of the state of time passage. My opinion on that of course, ymmv.
Timeless planar trait... mentioned it... pretty sure it negates such effects until a subject escapes.
EDIT: sorry.. I actually originally posted "timelessness"... maybe there was confusion X_X
Only as a monk, or any character with improved unarmed strike.
Assuming you did, you could start dealing lethal damage to yourself.
Coup de Grace yourself with unarmed strikes. (I'd say you would count as being at your own mercy.)
No.
Only as a monk, or any character with improved unarmed strike.
Assuming you did, you could start dealing lethal damage to yourself.
Haha! Really? You could technically perform Lethal Damage by punching/striking yourself, if you possess Improved Unarmed strike?
...Alright ^_^ Willing to accept that as one genuine and RAW-approved method.
...Unfortunately, the Coup de Grace probably Isn't... since you're not Helpless.
Only as a monk, or any character with improved unarmed strike.
Assuming you did, you could start dealing lethal damage to yourself.
Ohhh... Actually, on second thought...
If you're a typical PC with a Constitution score, you wouldn't be able to do this; Once you pummel yourself into unconsciousness, Fast healing would take over...
Are there other methods, or attacks, that do not rely on magic or supernatural abilities?
'My character kills himself.'
Done.
...Okie then.
How?
That's the point of this entire thread... "How"?
'My character kills himself.'
Done.
...Okie then.
How?
That's the point of this entire thread... "How"?
I shove my fingers into my eyes until I start poking my brain and leave them there. I bite off my tongue and choke on it. There's several ways, but really, does it matter?
How doesn't matter. If the DM is asking that question, it's because he's trying to stop you, and then it's not a rules question, it's a conflict between player and DM.
...And unfortunately, I completely disagree with That <_<
I'm asking if it's possible to commit suicide under the circumstances I've provided, all of which abide by RAW, and can be duplicated with the existence of a Demiplane.
I'm trying to find a clever way to trap a character without the need of Soul Binding, so they may not be accessed or revived.
So, before I do so... I want to know if there's any conceivable way people can think of for someone to Kill themselves under those conditions. ( Which would release their soul back into the Great Beyond )
Timeless planar trait... mentioned it... pretty sure it negates such effects until a subject escapes.EDIT: sorry.. I actually originally posted "timelessness"... maybe there was confusion X_X
The Timeless Planar trait from the 3.0 Manual of the Planes? It doesn't necessarily preclude hunger / thirst / aging (Manual of the Planes p.10). It "might", but it might also prevent healing (also on p.10). It's pretty vague without the specifics of the trait being defined.
The Timeless Planar trait from the 3.0 Manual of the Planes? It doesn't necessarily preclude hunger / thirst / aging (Manual of the Planes p.10). It "might", but it might also prevent healing (also on p.10). It's pretty vague without the specifics of the trait being defined.
...Hmm... to be honest, I'm just lookin' through the SRD available online...
Nothing I see suggests that it would Prevent healing, but it's an interesting point...
Thing is, it doesn't Explicitly state that it prevents you from dying by suffocation, either; However, it does claim that "How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. " ... So, in theory, I may be able to include or exclude healing as I see fit, in a demiplane created by me...
It seemed to me the question was more one of "how could you commit suicide in this situation," correct?
I think probably the only way is to try to choke on your tongue, really. Even unarmed strikes are likely to only leave you unconscious long enough to heal and wake up.
If you had fast healing, I suspect you could not really poke your brain with your fingers successfully. In real life, yeah, but in Pathfinder you'd just end up blind and suspended forever.
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I'm trying to find a clever way to trap a character without the need of Soul Binding, so they may not be accessed or revived.
AHA! That was the missing context.
I would have to say Doggan's suggestion of biting off your tongue and bleeding out would suffice.
And if the tongue grows back, keep at it until you choke to death on the blood.
It seemed to me the question was more one of "how could you commit suicide in this situation," correct?
I think probably the only way is to try to choke on your tongue, really. Even unarmed strikes are likely to only leave you unconscious long enough to heal and wake up.
If you had fast healing, I suspect you could not really poke your brain with your fingers successfully. In real life, yeah, but in Pathfinder you'd just end up blind and suspended forever.
*nod nod nod nod nod* ^_^
Yep yep Yep yep!
Except for the Choking part. Timeless, remember? What are you choking on; Air you don't need to breathe?
You'd certainly be Hella-Uncomfortable for eternity, though...
Thing is, it doesn't Explicitly state that it prevents you from dying by suffocation, either; However, it does claim that "How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. " ... So, in theory, I may be able to include or exclude healing as I see fit, in a demiplane created by me...
If you have the power to create a demi-plane you should be able to trap / destroy the soul. Unless you want to keep them available (or you're just sadistic) in which case you just need to design the right prison-plane I suppose...
AHA! That was the missing context.I would have to say Doggan's suggestion of biting off your tongue and bleeding out would suffice.
...Hmm... Alright, Bleeding.
...Might be part of the Timeless planar trait argument, but, more importantly...
If you have Fast healing, do superficial wounds not heal? Bleeding effects would end the second you recovered health...
Would "imprisonment" suit your needs?
Greg
...Hmm... Alright, Bleeding.
...Might be part of the Timeless planar trait argument, but, more importantly...
If you have Fast healing, do superficial wounds not heal? Bleeding effects would end the second you recovered health...
No and you are misundertanding timeless -- by what you are presenting you couldn't have combat in a timeless place since nothing can possibly happen -- by the same reckoning that bleed can't happen fast healing can't either.
Timeless
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
So actually you'll have to explain what you mean by 'timeless'
If you have the power to create a demi-plane you should be able to trap / destroy the soul. Unless you want to keep them available (or you're just sadistic) in which case you just need to design the right prison-plane I suppose...
... Oh, I Am sadistic. No denying that. Insidiously, even.
Thing is...
Trapping souls is Expensive. And it tends to leave an item that, if discovered, Releases the soul for eventual revivification. This is my alternative; a prison that Really makes sure those damn necromancers Never come back. For Eternity.
In fact, the Timeless planar trait is a boon; Even if someone manages to break into a Dead Magic plane, via the planar portal (which I want to suppress with antimagic), and extract the person... Chances are, they'd retroactively die of old age anyways! Their soul is permanently eviscerated, sent to the Great Beyond.
...There's one little exception.
What if someone manages to Kill themselves?
One could argue that the soul can then escape to the Astral, where my demiplane ( "The Oubliette" ) exists...
EDIT: Also, I wanted the Oubliette to be water-filled, and in eternal darkness. Constant Drowning FTW!
Actually... you might not have to commit suicide. It might come down to a matter of how realistically your GM wants to play the psychological aspects of this.
Suspended like this, with nobody to talk to, no distractions, etc., even if you didn't need to eat or drink for some magical reason, would eventually drive you mad. If you began to fall into a sleepless panic attack it is conceivable that you could very well die in a rather short period of time, from anxiety and stress brought on by lack of sleep and the conditions themselves.
I can tell you from experience that it is easy to fall into a downward spiral resulting in dangerously high blood pressure, an inability to breathe properly, and sleeplessness that can last for days. I would hate to have found out what would have happened if my doctor hadn't prescribed me something for sleep. I went for close to a week with only a few short hours. Not fun.
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It seemed to me the question was more one of "how could you commit suicide in this situation," correct?
I think probably the only way is to try to choke on your tongue, really. Even unarmed strikes are likely to only leave you unconscious long enough to heal and wake up.
If you had fast healing, I suspect you could not really poke your brain with your fingers successfully. In real life, yeah, but in Pathfinder you'd just end up blind and suspended forever.
*nod nod nod nod nod* ^_^
Yep yep Yep yep!
Except for the Choking part. Timeless, remember? What are you choking on; Air you don't need to breathe?
You'd certainly be Hella-Uncomfortable for eternity, though...
If you’re making a custom demi-plane you can probably give it whatever traits or parameters you like. But if you are going by RAW, I don’t think there’s anything in the RAW that suggests the Timeless trait means you don’t need to breath.
I attack myself in various ways to get to 1 hp -- then I make an unarmed attack against myself and provoke an attack of opportunity against myself which allows me to attack myself before my attack and interrupt myself in time creating a paradox and exploding the plane since it can't compute or grasp the concept of what I'm doing since it has no time, and there what I'm doing can't happen even as it can't not happen without my removal.
Alternately I use improvised weapon mastery to kill myself with the plane as an improvised weapon (considering it's a whole plane I'm pretty sure hitting myself with it will do a lot of damage).
If you’re making a custom demi-plane you can probably give it whatever traits or parameters you like. But if you are going by RAW, I don’t think there’s anything in the RAW that suggests the Timeless trait means you don’t need to breath.
You're right. The maximum it states is that Similar effects vary from Plane to Plane.
Generally speaking, I would place aspects like hunger, thirst, and aging on the same grounds as Breathing though.
I attack myself in various ways to get to 1 hp -- then I make an unarmed attack against myself and provoke an attack of opportunity against myself which allows me to attack myself before my attack and interrupt myself in time creating a paradox and exploding the plane since it can't compute or grasp the concept of what I'm doing since it has no time, and there what I'm doing can't happen even as it can't not happen without my removal.
Alternately I use improvised weapon mastery to kill myself with the plane as an improvised weapon (considering it's a whole plane I'm pretty sure hitting myself with it will do a lot of damage).
..XD I get it Abraham.
I'm just reading up on the Timeless planar trait. Everything I say is my attempt to interpret that.
From the SRD, and correct me if you have other sources:
Timeless
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
---
In other words... a Whole lot of it seems to simply be My decision.
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If you’re making a custom demi-plane you can probably give it whatever traits or parameters you like. But if you are going by RAW, I don’t think there’s anything in the RAW that suggests the Timeless trait means you don’t need to breath.
You're right. The maximum it states is that Similar effects vary from Plane to Plane.
Generally speaking, I would place aspects like hunger, thirst, and aging on the same grounds as Breathing though.
You may, and that’s your prerogative as GM, but the rules don’t in (at least some) other circumstances. For example, non-native outsiders do not need to eat or sleep by RAW (and it is generally inferred that they do not age), but they do need to breathe.
Actually... you might not have to commit suicide. It might come down to a matter of how realistically your GM wants to play the psychological aspects of this.
Suspended like this, with nobody to talk to, no distractions, etc., even if you didn't need to eat or drink for some magical reason, would eventually drive you mad. If you began to fall into a sleepless panic attack it is conceivable that you could very well die in a rather short period of time, from anxiety and stress brought on by lack of sleep and the conditions themselves.
I can tell you from experience that it is easy to fall into a downward spiral resulting in dangerously high blood pressure, an inability to breathe properly, and sleeplessness that can last for days. I would hate to have found out what would have happened if my doctor hadn't prescribed me something for sleep. I went for close to a week with only a few short hours. Not fun.
... ^_^
Death by Psychological ( and therefore some Physical ) depression, issues, and trauma...
...Yeah, I guess a lot of what you say makes sense. Not much I can really say, since it would follow the GM's discretion and not much in terms of RAW... but...
...That'd probably be one depressed soul.
Maybe, by the time he's released, we won't Want to come back anymore.
I require such decisions in advance, otherwise it's moving goal posts.
However I would probably get my familiar to kill me.
Also if it's timeless where I don't have to eat sleep or breath you can't drown me -- also I can't go mad since no time has past.
Basically at best you've put me into stasis.
You may, and that’s your prerogative as GM, but the rules don’t in (at least some) other circumstances. For example, non-native outsiders do not need to eat or sleep by RAW (and it is generally inferred that they do not age), but they do need to breathe.
See, I thought about that briefly...
Looking at the Perfect Self from the Monk class, I've always associated those typical dependencies as a result from the Home plane; It is something that is inherent to the plane from which those creatures originate. Therefore, It'd have nothing to do with the Timeless planar trait...
Thoughts?
I require such decisions in advance, otherwise it's moving goal posts.
However I would probably get my familiar to kill me.
Also if it's timeless where I don't have to eat sleep or breath you can't drown me -- also I can't go mad since no time has past.
Basically at best you've put me into stasis.
A stasis in which you are still technically sentient. ^_^
I appreciate the Astral Plane's definition of timelessness. Time still passes. Its effects, however, only happen retroactively; You are still sentient and can perform tasks the entire time...
...Take that, and tweak it a bit in a Demiplane...
You have True Hell.
Watch out for bloatmages -- they can bloat themselves to death.
Arcane Tricksters could impromptu sneak attack themselves to death (with bleed too).
Barbarians can rage themselves to death (rage attack yourself until your HP when you drop from rage will fall under your death threshold and end the rage).
Watch out for bloatmages -- they can bloat themselves to death.
Arcane Tricksters could impromptu sneak attack themselves to death (with bleed too).
Barbarians can rage themselves to death (rage attack yourself until your HP when you drop from rage will fall under your death threshold and end the rage).
Thank you! =D
Those are all brilliant. I'll have to make sure to keep those in mind...
Although, it is a Dead Magic plane. Supernatural abilities won't work, if any of those Are supernatural... will look into that now.
Edit: Rage passes. I have No idea about the bloatmage, really... but it looks like Fast Healing might negate it. And points to any Arcane Trickster that manages to actually sneak attack themselves... XD That's actually pretty damn genius, as hilarious as it is.
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You may, and that’s your prerogative as GM, but the rules don’t in (at least some) other circumstances. For example, non-native outsiders do not need to eat or sleep by RAW (and it is generally inferred that they do not age), but they do need to breathe.
See, I thought about that briefly...
Looking at the Perfect Self from the Monk class, I've always associated those typical dependencies as a result from the Home plane; It is something that is inherent to the plane from which those creatures originate. Therefore, It'd have nothing to do with the Timeless planar trait...
Thoughts?
I’m not meaning to imply that the Outsider traits are related to the Timeless planar trait – just throwing it out there that in parts of the game rules (for example, the Outsider traits), the ability to exist without eating, sleeping, or aging does not automatically mean you don’t need to breath – so you shouldn’t necessarily assume that when the Timeless planar trait suggests you don’t age or need to eat, that it means you don’t need to breath either.
In the end though, the written description of the Timeless planar trait is so vague as to allow a lot of GM leeway.
I’m not meaning to imply that the Outsider traits are related to the Timeless planar trait – just throwing it out there that in parts of the game rules (for example, the Outsider traits), the ability to exist without eating, sleeping, or aging does not automatically mean you don’t need to breath – so you shouldn’t necessarily assume that when the Timeless planar trait suggests you don’t age or need to eat, that it means you don’t need to breath either.In the end though, the written description of the Timeless planar trait is so vague as to allow a lot of GM leeway.
Point taken. ^_^ I tried to get thoughts on that from a Rules thread. Didn't work out so well.
Mark my words. Had it been possible through the RAW, I'd find a way to actually Seal off "The Oubliette"... then Eject it out into Limbo... Out of the Multiverse... to the borders of, and beyond, Existence itself.
"You are no longer welcome to exist. Goodbye".
...But, for now...
I just have to worry about their Soul escaping, because they managed to Kill themselves in my prison.
So.
Back to the Suicide talk, shall we?
PS: And, Yes, if they Do manage to die.. I Will be extracting their corpse, making it Undead, and sending it back in to Hold Down the next fool that visits.
PPS: I'm Totally Neutral-good. Can't you tell?
Wouldn't it be as simple as taking the coup de grace action against yourself?
Deal 1d3+Str damage and make a save VS death. Choose to fail the save.
You're dead.
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How doesn't matter. If the DM is asking that question, it's because he's trying to stop you, and then it's not a rules question, it's a conflict between player and DM.
Not necessarily; I can see this thread as an attempt to test the legality of a scenario setup.
GM: "The PCs are contacted by the spirit of an NPC whose body is still trapped in the demiplane..."Save me, save me, stop their awful plot, woe, woe...I escaped by suicide to warn the mortal realm..."..."
Player: "How did he do that then?"
GM: "Oh, bugger."
Player: "How did he do that then?"GM: "Oh, bugger."
Force of will. :P
Wouldn't it be as simple as taking the coup de grace action against yourself?
Deal 1d3+Str damage and make a save VS death. Choose to fail the save.
You're dead.
I support RD on this one, though it might not be RAW since you are technically helpless. A person that is willing to die, should be able to die from significant damage. A 10th level fighter with 100 hp can die by jumping of a 150' high tower, that same fighter can die by closing his eyes and standing still while an orc takes a coup de grace at him simply by choosing to fail his save, you will not have suicide covered in RAW for obvious reasons but denying it makes for a game that is more about mechanics than it is supposed to be (imo) don't stare yourself blind on RAW, at worst I would tie a will save to this to actually grow through with it..
I support RD on this one, though it might not be RAW since you are technically helpless. A person that is willing to die, should be able to die from significant damage. A 10th level fighter with 100 hp can die by jumping of a 150' high tower, that same fighter can die by closing his eyes and standing still while an orc takes a coup de grace at him simply by choosing to fail his save, you will not have suicide covered in RAW for obvious reasons but denying it makes for a game that is more about mechanics than it is supposed to be (imo) don't stare yourself blind on RAW, at worst I would tie a will save to this to actually grow through with it..
This is about a tactic that is Specifically aimed to Prevent suicide. If they commit suicide, their Soul *might* be able to return to the Great Beyond... And therefore into any Clones the subject may have made, or Revival attempts, or Communication attempts via divination...etc, etc.
Therefore, it's quite important to try to restrict them in all means applicable, yet still abiding by the RAW. ^_^
Wouldn't it be as simple as taking the coup de grace action against yourself?
Deal 1d3+Str damage and make a save VS death. Choose to fail the save.
You're dead.
That's Twice this has come up...
I... I actually have to Agree with you; But only if you're Capable of performing a coup de grace Unarmed. Is it possible to do a coup de grace, by RAW, without a weapon?
I guess, there's nothing I can really do except toss in a few Undead to restrain and grapple the bugger... from killing himself that way.
Wouldn't it be as simple as taking the coup de grace action against yourself?
Deal 1d3+Str damage and make a save VS death. Choose to fail the save.
You're dead.
That's Twice this has come up...
I... I actually have to Agree with you; But only if you're Capable of performing a coup de grace Unarmed. Is it possible to do a coup de grace, by RAW, without a weapon?
I guess, there's nothing I can really do except toss in a few Undead to restrain and grapple the bugger... from killing himself that way.
I think there might be a stipulation somewhere that you have to deal lethal damage for it to work. That means you will have to take a -4 penalty to the attack roll to make it lethal damage.
A moot consequence as you automatically hit on a coup de grace. :D
Anyone with sneak attack can murder themselves. Eventually you'll wind up at 1-3 HP, and the next sneak attack will put you easily at -Con assuming level 5+.
As has been mentioned, raging then putting yourself below your death threshold then dropping rage would do it.
If you were dedicated enough, you could cut a vein with your fingernails/teeth and bleed to death. Same with biting off one's own tongue or choking on it. Build a noose out of hair and suffocate to death with it (one of the more gruesome deaths-by-torture I've heard of involves tying someone's feet up behind their back to their wrists, with a loop of rope around their neck. When their thighs cramp, the pain is so severe they will try to straighten their legs, thereby suffocating themselves to death. Even once unconscious, the pain from thigh cramps is so severe the unconscious body will continue strangling itself).
Edit: right, no magic.
The Rage and Sneak attacks both check out. ^_^ But the Coup-de-grace sounds like a far better idea than a Sneak attack, by both nature and function. The suffocation does not, if the Timeless Planar Trait can apply to breathing. They'd just be Incredibly uncomfortable for eternity... and in a very awkward position.
...not like I'd stop them from trying =P
The Bleed-to-death factor is an ongoing question; But throwing in Fast-healing should stop one's ability to bleed to death.
Thanks for the ideas. ^_^
I think there might be a stipulation somewhere that you have to deal lethal damage for it to work. That means you will have to take a -4 penalty to the attack roll to make it lethal damage.
A moot consequence as you automatically hit on a coup de grace. :D
*sigh*.. XD Alright, I guess we have a winner.
By this method, almost Anyone that's not physically bound or restrained, can die to a Coup de Grace performed on themselves.
...So.
Countermeasures:
1) Cut off their bloody arms. Let Fast-healing do its work.
2) If they're undead, are they susceptible to a Coup-de-grace?
Edit:
GM: "You are Literally un-armed, and are Bound for Eternity, drowning, in darkness, in a Dead Magic Demiplane. Create a new character now, if you-"
Player: "Hang on."
GM: "What?"
Player: "I perform a Coup de Grace on myself"
GM: "...umm...How?"
Player: "I use my toes."
GM: "...?!"
Well, I think you'd eventually crush your own larynx. I'm not sure if you'd snap your own neck or not, since IRL it kills before that happens ...
Unfortunately, that only means you'll Suffocate After you leave the demiplane... Though I'm more than willing to accept someone cleverly managing to practically behead themselves, Snapping their own neck with rope made out of hair, and their Thigh-muscles...
<_<
...You people are good at imagining Suicide scenarios...
I have to get drastic.