This is a neato combo that someone pointed out to me in another thread, and I am just making sure it works how I think it does.
Magical Lineage makes a single spell's level count as 1 lower for the purpose of the spell slot it uses when metamagic is involved.
Can you heighten say a 1st spell you chose to level 2 and then still prepare it as a 1st level spell at 1st level if you took heighten spell?
It seems counter-intuitive, but I think it works per RAW.
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What's counter-intuitive about it? One of those 1-level higher metamagic feats will be free at a time for that ONE spell provided you have the feat. Or make other metamagic feats cost 1 less spell level.
To save the rest of you time:
One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness.
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
What's counter-intuitive about it? One of those 1-level higher metamagic feats will be free at a time for that ONE spell provided you have the feat. Or make other metamagic feats cost 1 less spell level.
To save the rest of you time:
One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness.
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
Huh. Just seemed weird to cast a level 2 spell as a level 1 spell. I figured I'd just make sure. Mostly I just smash things with lances 'round here.
This is a neato combo that someone pointed out to me in another thread, and I am just making sure it works how I think it does.
Magical Lineage makes a single spell's level count as 1 lower for the purpose of the spell slot it uses when metamagic is involved.
Can you heighten say a 1st spell you chose to level 2 and then still prepare it as a 1st level spell at 1st level if you took heighten spell?
It seems counter-intuitive, but I think it works per RAW.
My party wizard makes great use of this for extending mage armor at low levels.
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Magical Lineage + Magic Missile + Toppling Spell = tripping 5 oppents / round at range, with full BAB and using your primary stat.
And who said Evokers were a dying art?!
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That said, I don't generally see people with this trait decide to select one of their level one spells as its focus, but that's simply an observation. If you want to be balling a tricked out level 1 spell, this idea seems like an excellent way to get started!
Magi are almost required by law to take this on Shocking Grasp and then do fun things like make it do up to 10d6 dmg as a first level spell they are channeling through a sword swing.
I like using it on the summoner's Heal Eidolon w/ Reach spell.
Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell on a cleric/wizard spell = Mystic Theurge at level 3?
Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell on a cleric/wizard spell = Mystic Theurge at level 3?
That would technically be having the ability to cast A level 2 arcane and divine spell... Argh, now you've got me curious.
Jen,
That has been tried before - it does not fly. The Spell Level of a spell remains the same no matter the feat applied to it. (The effective level of a Heightened spell does change, but not its actual spell level).
The Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells, which you cannot learn to apply feats to until you are 3rd level in those classes. (It also means you cannot dumpstat say WIS and claim that access to the 2nd level slot gets you the prerequistis for the Theurge.)
Jen,
That has been tried before - it does not fly. The Spell Level of a spell remains the same no matter the feat applied to it. (The effective level of a Heightened spell does change, but not its actual spell level).
The Mystic Theurge requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells, which you cannot learn to apply feats to until you are 3rd level in those classes. (It also means you cannot dumpstat say WIS and claim that access to the 2nd level slot gets you the prerequistis for the Theurge.)
My Mystic Theurge!!! Noooo!! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Oh, and the other trick that people try and claim is that a 1st level spell modified by a feat that does not normally modify the spell slot needed to cast the spell, such as Merciful allows you to cast as a Cantrip / Orison and thus unlimited number of times per day.
Hopefully the trait will be erratad to stop that, but at the moment it is up to the GM to say that that is not allowed.
Yar.
Magical Lineage (trait): Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?
No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/24/13
EDIT: In more detail, it works like this:
-Magic Missile + Toppling Spell (+1 meta) = Level 2 spell
-Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) with Magic Missile + Toppling Spell (+1 meta) = Level 1 spell
-Magic Missile + Empower Spell (+2 meta) = Level 3 spell
-Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) with Magic Missile + Empower Spell (+2 meta) = Level 2 spell
-Magic Missile + Merciful Spell (+0 meta) = Level 1 Spell
-Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) with Magic Missile + Merciful Spell (+0 meta) = STILL a Level 1 spell (cannot go below original spell level)
The 3.5 clause of "you can never reduce the metamagic tax to zero" does not exist in the pathfinder version, ergo: it does not have that limitation. So in Pathfinder you CAN reduce it to +0, but you canNOT reduce it to -1. Sorry, no spamming Magic Missiles or Shocking Grasps as cantrips.
~P
@Dan: One post above you.
"Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level? No."
It does not take a spell below it's original level, period. Just lowers the level adjustment by 1, if any.
So you could, say, use that Flame Revelation to Enlarge the spell, then use a +1 level metamagic and still cast it as its original level, but you can't make it lower than what it was originally.
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Does the magical lineage lower the effective spell level?
We know that metamagic does not affect effective spell level (of course we take Heighten spell apart) so if the reflex DC for my fireball is 20, I am right to say that a persistent(+2 level)fireball with fireball as magical lineage will still has a DC 20 reflex and the spell effective level will be 3 for a spell slot of level 4.
2nd exemple: If i use a heighten (+1) magical lineage (-1) fireball, my effective fireball level will be level 4, the reflexe will be 21 but the spell slot will be 3.
Magical Lineage
One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness.Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
I would like to point out that Heighten is a poor example to use. A Heightened Spell has to be cast out of the spell slot it is Heightened to to gain the benefit, unlike other Meta'd spells.
YOu can't reduce the cost of a Heighten, because it doesn't have a +cost modifier. It simply gets cast out of a higher slot, and becomes a higher level spell.
Also, MM+ Toppling is a 1st level spell in a 2nd level SLOT, not a 2nd level spell. You can, for instance, counter it with a level 1 unmodified magic missile.
A Magic Missile Heightened into a level 2 spell, however, cannot be countered by a level 1 MM, it's a different level of spell.
==Aelryinth
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My point is about magical lineage, In my example, I want to confirm that the fireball will use a +1 DC reflex.
A better example: a dazing (+3) heighten (+1) magic missile with magical lineage (-1) will be an effective spell level of 2 (MM + heighten) but will take a spell slot of 4. So the target will be dazed for 2 rounds. as the effective level of the spell is only affected by the heighten spell.
Dazing Spell (Metamagic)
You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell.
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My point is about magical lineage, In my example, I want to confirm that the fireball will use a +1 DC reflex.
A better example: a dazing (+3) heighten (+1) magic missile with magical lineage (-1) will be an effective spell level of 2 (MM + heighten) but will take a spell slot of 4. So the target will be dazed for 2 rounds. as the effective level of the spell is only affected by the heighten spell.
Dazing Spell (Metamagic)
You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell.
I'd say so, as you would be lowering the dazing modifier by 1, and lowering the slot required. You aren't doing away with the heightened spell as was brought up earlier. So, Magic Missile counts as a 2nd level spell being cast from a fourth level slot in that case.
That is the correct way to read it. Heighten cannot be Meta'd down. It is totally dependent on the slot cast from using Heighten.
==Aelryinth
I would like to point out that Heighten is a poor example to use. A Heightened Spell has to be cast out of the spell slot it is Heightened to to gain the benefit, unlike other Meta'd spells.
YOu can't reduce the cost of a Heighten, because it doesn't have a +cost modifier. It simply gets cast out of a higher slot, and becomes a higher level spell.
Also, MM+ Toppling is a 1st level spell in a 2nd level SLOT, not a 2nd level spell. You can, for instance, counter it with a level 1 unmodified magic missile.
A Magic Missile Heightened into a level 2 spell, however, cannot be countered by a level 1 MM, it's a different level of spell.
==Aelryinth
Counterspell doesn't say anything about spell level. You could use a standard 1st level Magic Missile to counterspell a Heightened Magic Missile, Empowered Magic Missile, or any other altered Magic Missile because it is still the same spell.
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell's energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
How Counterspells Work
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. You may still move at your normal speed, since ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent's spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can't do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.
Counterspelling Metamagic Spells
Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered.
Specific Exceptions
Some spells can counter other specific spells, often those with diametrically opposed effects.
Dispel Magic as a Counterspell
You can usually use dispel magic to counterspell another spell being cast without needing to identify the spell being cast. Dispel magic doesn't always work as a counterspell (see the spell description).
I'm pretty sure the heighten trick doesn't work. The magical lineage trait doesn't over ride the part of the game that says a 4th level spell (ie one with dc 14 + stat as its saves) has to go into at least a lvl 4 spell slot.
Unlike other Metamagic feats, Heighten spell actually changes the spell into a different level of spell. Magic Missile(1) is not the same spell as magic missile (2nd), even if it is the same as Magic Missile + Topple+Empower+Maximize.
You can't counter a Heightened Magic Missile with the base spell because it's not hte base spell+ anymore. It'd be the equivalent of countering a delayed blast fireball with a fireball - they are both completely seperate spells.
But, ymmv.
==Aelryinth
Unlike other Metamagic feats, Heighten spell actually changes the spell into a different level of spell. Magic Missile(1) is not the same spell as magic missile (2nd), even if it is the same as Magic Missile + Topple+Empower+Maximize.
You can't counter a Heightened Magic Missile with the base spell because it's not hte base spell+ anymore. It'd be the equivalent of countering a delayed blast fireball with a fireball - they are both completely seperate spells.
But, ymmv.
==Aelryinth
What in the Counterspell section gives you this impression, at all?
There is no reference to spell level. It say to ignore metamagic feats. And there is no reason to say Heightened Magic Missile isn't Magic Missile.
You can't counter a Heightened Magic Missile with the base spell because it's not hte base spell+ anymore. It'd be the equivalent of countering a delayed blast fireball with a fireball - they are both completely seperate spells.That isn't true at all. Heighten spell is like any other Metamagic feat, just with a more flexible cost: it's "increase effective level of the spell by X: cost: X higher spell slot.
Correct. Heightened magic missile is countered by magic missile, just as toppling magic misisle is countered by merciful magic missile. The metamagic modifies the effect of the spell, but the spell remains the same.
Hgtn MM is a level 2 spell. You can't counter a level 2 spell with a level 1 spell ANYWHERE. The only thing you can do is Dispel it.
Heighten Spell has always been weird and wonky and treated different then other MM effects. Unlike all other MM feats, it doesn't give + bonuses. It becomes a spell of the new slot, and gains all the benefits thereby.
If it was a +cost feat, I'd agree with you all, but it doesn't have a cost mod.
But, YMMV. It works either way.
==Aelryinth
Hgtn MM is a level 2 spell. You can't counter a level 2 spell with a level 1 spell ANYWHERE. The only thing you can do is Dispel it.
Where are you getting that you can't counter a lv 2 spell with a lv 1 spell?
Hgtn MM is a level 2 spell. You can't counter a level 2 spell with a level 1 spell ANYWHERE. The only thing you can do is Dispel it.
Heighten Spell has always been weird and wonky and treated different then other MM effects. Unlike all other MM feats, it doesn't give + bonuses. It becomes a spell of the new slot, and gains all the benefits thereby.
If it was a +cost feat, I'd agree with you all, but it doesn't have a cost mod.
But, YMMV. It works either way.
==Aelryinth
There is no rule anywhere in Pathfinder that you cannot counter a spell with a lower-level spell. There is an explicit rule that says that metamagic is ignored for the purposes of counterspelling. You are inferring extra mechanics for Heighten Spell that the description does not bear out.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Please point out the specific part of this description that states that overrules the explicit general rule that metamagic is ignored for the purposes of counterspelling.
Hgtn MM is a level 2 spell. You can't counter a level 2 spell with a level 1 spell ANYWHERE. The only thing you can do is Dispel it.
Why not?
Heighten gives spells properties they have under no other meta, because of the lack of cost.
A heightened spell can bypass globes of invulnerability, for instance. A normal Meta'd spell cannot do that. Taking on properties of the higher spell slots is an effect reserved for Heighten alone.
And if you can find an example of a level 1 spell being able to Counter a level 2...because it works the other way around, usually. In which case you have a specific case trumping general case.
meh, I'm not worried about it, esp for magic missile. Who heightens that spell? :)
==Aelryinth
Heighten gives spells properties they have under no other meta, because of the lack of cost.
A heightened spell can bypass globes of invulnerability, for instance. A normal Meta'd spell cannot do that. Taking on properties of the higher spell slots is an effect reserved for Heighten alone.
And if you can find an example of a level 1 spell being able to Counter a level 2...because it works the other way around, usually. In which case you have a specific case trumping general case.
meh, I'm not worried about it, esp for magic missile. Who heightens that spell? :)
==Aelryinth
*points at the post above yours*
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And if you can find an example of a level 1 spell being able to Counter a level 2...because it works the other way around, usually. In which case you have a specific case trumping general case.
meh, I'm not worried about it, esp for magic missile. Who heightens that spell? :)
==Aelryinth
you are the one claiming it is not possible, you should carry the burden of proof. I don't see anything in the counterspelling rule that says you can't counterspell a higher level spell. That's something you inferred.
As some people has said, a summoner can counter a 3rd level wizard Haste with his second level summoner Haste.
Hgtn MM is a level 2 spell. You can't counter a level 2 spell with a level 1 spell ANYWHERE. The only thing you can do is Dispel it.
Heighten Spell has always been weird and wonky and treated different then other MM effects. Unlike all other MM feats, it doesn't give + bonuses. It becomes a spell of the new slot, and gains all the benefits thereby.
If it was a +cost feat, I'd agree with you all, but it doesn't have a cost mod.
But, YMMV. It works either way.
==Aelryinth
So, a cleric can't use his Hold Person (2) to counter a Wizard's Hold Person (3), or vice versa?
Seems legit to me.
That said, I don't generally see people with this trait decide to select one of their level one spells as its focus, but that's simply an observation. If you want to be balling a tricked out level 1 spell, this idea seems like an excellent way to get started!
That's the spell level most useful to a magus taking this trait. Shocking grasp. :P