I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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Dude -- it's level 1, not exactly a place where you should be 'threatened' by the enemy on a regular basis.
Let them have their cake for a bit I mean really kobolds, dire rats, and experts/warriors are supposed to be their foes, maybe an adept on occasion. It's the introduction, don't expect epic difficult fights at this point.
I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Well you could always make it 15 point buy, have them roll stats or, change your point system.
I hear you, I usually have a 16 in my primary AFTER race attribute increase, because I prefer to have 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 13 than 18/14/14/12/12/7 or some variation, because I prefer more balanced characters.
Yeah, either give them a 15-point-buy or an array that doesn't include an 18, but don't complain about them using the rules you gave them. You're in charge.
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This is really hard to fix. If your players are determined to optimize, crippling their stats isn't going to stop that. I'm running a Kingmaker game with 15 pt point buy and I still regularly see characters with 18 STR, 18 CHA, 18, WIS, etc.
You have to solve the problem at the source. Talk to your players. Explain what's bothering you.
Statistically, the higher your Strength check the less likely you are to successfully open the pickle jar. It confounds mathematics, although one researcher advanced a theory that the d20 was, quote, "a bugger."
???
Statistically, the higher your Strength check the less likely you are to successfully open the pickle jar. It confounds mathematics, although one researcher advanced a theory that the d20 was, quote, "a bugger."???
and another ?????
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The question is -- are they actually crippling themselves to do this and are they honestly that 'overpowered' and does it fit the character they are trying to play?
Because remember while you are the GM they are the players -- all they have control over is their PC... intruding on that should be done very carefully if at all.
Not every fight has to be a challenge and not every challenge has to be from the foe.
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I'm not sure what's "standard enemies" for you, but Bugbears are CR 2 and a party of level 1's should be able to take down several before blowing their resources away.
Well said.
While I sympathize somewhat with wanting to have players with "real" stats, that isn't going to happen with point buy. Players are going to buy exactly what they want and they will always want to have high scores in the important stats.
It is part of why our group prefers dice rolling then figuring out what to make based on what the dice give you.
18 isn't going to be unusual for an adventurer in Pathfinder with the automatic +2's.
This is part of why they need to be careful with giving more than +2 to anything in the race guide, particularly when it relates to mental stats.
I guess all I can say is be happy they're not going for a 20 right out the door?
Same here.
Other than that, offer them an array to build characters and not put any number higher than 15, problem solved.
I'm confused as to why you're so upset about this. 18 strength is badass at level 1, but it quickly loses its steam as you gain (vs. 16). It's the difference of +1 attack and +1-2 damage. Plus, you gave them 20 point buy and they spent half of it on the most relevant stat to their class. That's not min-maxing. That's just prioritizing with an eye towards effectiveness.
If you insist on your players being truly mediocre, go with a lower point buy or apply creation restrictions (no stat higher than 16 after racial modifiers).
Last time I gamed with my group we were having a very similar conversation. We were discussing the ridiculous nature of some of our stats. (Int 26, Char 24, Str 25). After much discussion we decided that next game we would use a 15 pt buy and no starting stat could be higher than a 16.
I think it helps that I play with an older group and that at one point or another we've all been behind the DM screen. So we all know the work that goes into DMing and that the mechanics of the game begin to break down when your stats are out of wack. Thus making DMing even more difficult.
Maybe you could talk to your players and see if they would agree to self imposed stat caps. It's not like the game gets less fun.
Like others have said use a stat array, my group uses 18,16,15,14,13,11 but something like 16,14,13,12,11,9 works well for lower power games.
The main problem is focusing on level one, I mean you will be level one for what one or two days of gaming.
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My friend, I think your priorities are slightly misaligned.
Pathfinder characters, especially on 20 points, are heroes. It should be weird if none of them has an 18, especially if the class is one that doesn't really require much ability score diversity.
You do need to use APL +2 if you want to challenge the party. APL == CR indicates that the players can deal with several consecutive encounters of that CR. Heck, I don't even consider a boss fight lower than APL +4.
You're the GM. You can (and should) challenge the players no matter what the surround math says to do. There are GMs who can game low CR monsters to be way vicious, and there are others who just up the CR. In the end, CR is a guideline that shows you the relative strength of monsters, nothing more. If you are finding that "challenge" corresponds to a higher number than you expected, simply adjust the number!
How do I discourage this kind of character-building?
There are two ways I know of off-hand, either give them a stat array to build their characters that doesn’t have an 18 in it to start with or have them roll their stats.
If you have a to roll die it creates a bell curve where very high or low numbers are less likely. The reason for this is simple, to roll an 18 you have to roll three sixes there is no other way to do it. On the other hand there are a number of ways to roll a 10, two fours and a two, two threes and a four, a five a four and a one, etc, thus the probably shifts toward the center and you are less likely to see 18’s.
Actually having thought about it a moment another option for stat generation would be to make higher stats more expensive so, for example every 1 point of increase above say 16 could cost 2 points from their point buy, that might help make it less likely that a player would max the attribute.
But now that I’ve answered that question I’d like to ask one of my own… Are you sure that’s really the problem? I mean while high stats are naturally desirable, and as several others have mentioned should be expected when using a point buy, would a 16 instead of an 18 actually lower their damage output or other abilities noticeably?
I would tend to think they would still be nearly as powerful. After all, we are only talking about an attribute modifier that is 1 point different so I doubt you’d see much change. It sounds to me that they are a skilled group that make good choices and know how to build effective characters. Also as others have mentioned it's first level they aren't really supposed to be challenged to badly that early.
In any case, while I can understand how it's a little silly that every adventuring group out their seems to be filled with characters that are essentially the smartest, strongest, or otherwise best in their primary attribute, but unless it has a significant negative impact on the game I wouldn't worry about it myself.
For the most part I don't even know the stats of my players, I mean I have copies of their character sheets and can look them up if I'm so inclined, but really I don't see how a slight difference has any significant impact. This is even more true at higher levels. Yes it's always nice to do more damage or have a higher DC but it just doesn't seem to impact the game nearly as much as choices made for spells, feat, etc. Hence I really don't think it's worth worrying about myself.
Anyway good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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. . . remember while you are the GM they are the players -- all they have control over is their PC... intruding on that should be done very carefully if at all.
This!
This is the most important thing point that has been made in the thread thus far.You control the entire universe, every NPC, every monster, what items can be made or purchased and at what prices, travel times, adventure opportunities, everything! There is one exception, the characters, and you even have quite a bit of control over characters by deciding on a point-buy amount, house rules, and a plethora of secondary effects.
Leave this one thing to the players, and don't sweat it. Having a +4 hit & damage rather than a +3 isn't going to ruin the game. In fact, it's a significant part of the fun for a player! Why do you think every version of D&D going back almost 40 years gets a little more generous with 1st level characters? Because it's what players want!
Also, keep in mind that the players are stuck with these characters for the duration of the game. Any points they don't put into an attribute now, they won't really have a chance to make up later. (You could say that a +2 item will be available, but that same item would be available no matter what starting number they apply it to.) If a Fighter wants to have awesome strength when the Wizard is casting 9th level spells, the fighter has to spend points at character generation to prepare for that day.
Pathfinder characters, especially on 20 points, are heroes. It should be weird if none of them has an 18, especially if the class is one that doesn't really require much ability score diversity.
You do need to use APL +2 if you want to challenge the party. APL == CR indicates that the players can deal with several consecutive encounters of that CR. Heck, I don't even consider a boss fight lower than APL +4.
You're the GM. You can (and should) challenge the players no matter what the surround math says to do. . .
If 5 orcs isn't a challenge, send 10. If a dozen kobolds die too easily, start them out in trees that require 3 rounds of climb checks to get up, so that slings for 1d3-1 damage have enough time to whittle down the players. If you have to, just give +1 hit & damage to the enemies. But, there's only one thing your players have control over, let them have it.
The only part about OPs example that bothers me is that there are 3 people in the game with an 18 strength.
One of my red flags is when I see characters stepping on each other's toes. At first level, an 18 is a pretty big deal. Three guys with the same schtick generally means that they're all trying to be "the strong guy" and because all of them are doing it, none of them feel like they are. This often leads to an unsatisfying play experience.
I've seen groups of characters with similar high stats built around teamwork (squads of soldiers, gangs of rogues), but something tells me this isn't the case with this group.
I wonder if the problem would solve itself if the party was a little more diverse?
You know looking at the party it seems to me they want a hack and slash -- after all they are all primary damage dealers. Sure they got other 'abilities' but these guys want to cut things up grab the loot and cut something else up from the looks of it.
In away your players have done you a huge favor -- there is no question about what sort of game will satisfy them!
Might I make yet another suggestion? Plan on mooks -- lots of mooks: Mooks that go down fairly fast and easy, in fact make a point of it. Hp? What Hp? One hit or two for an 'elite mook' and let them fall. Armies of goblins, hordes of orcs, dens of kobolds let them rip, enjoy the laughter and happiness as these creatures fall, then have the boss be B.O.S.S.
I mean The BBEG of BBEG, make him big make him mean, make him multiple stages if possible starts out living goes to die is so bad@$$ he refuses to do so and is now undead immediately and keeps fighting -- I mean DAMN how hardcore is that guy to do it? And then when his undead body falls expended .
He doesn't even have to be 'really high CR' at that point cause damn he's going to go on forever.
That gives you the means of really laying it on thick and letting them wade through mooks... all the while you know they are expending resources so the when the boss gets there... wow what a boss.
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I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs."
If you want to challenge a bunch of meat grinders, stop tossing meat at them.
Seriously, if they're super-good at doing X and X is all you ever ask them to do, then yeah, it's gonna get silly. Stop saying "Oh yeah? Well can you out-DPR this?" and then getting upset when they do.
Put them in a boat in the middle of a 50-foot-wide river and have archers shoot at them from the trees.
Give them a race against the clock, where sticking around long enough to kill everything will cause them to fail.
Have them get framed for something and need to clear their names (in which case violence will work against them by making them look like public menaces).
No offense, but it sounds like you have one-dimensional campaigns and they've got your number. Your fault, not theirs.
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I'm sorry:(
I didnt know you felt this way man. Want to redo our campaign or just start Espers instead? I admit I liked to 'cheese' but I've been gettin better at this.
What? NO! You can't be reasonable about this! You got to get mad and throw down the gauntlet! Challenge us to make an "unbeatable PC" to upset your GM and 'teach him a lesson!" Then he's got to come back and ask for a PC killer, and how to get control back!
Darn it how am I to be entertained and kept busy if you all act all reasonably and simply talk it all out?
My friend, I think your priorities are slightly misaligned.
Pathfinder characters, especially on 20 points, are heroes. It should be weird if none of them has an 18, especially if the class is one that doesn't really require much ability score diversity.
You do need to use APL +2 if you want to challenge the party. APL == CR indicates that the players can deal with several consecutive encounters of that CR. Heck, I don't even consider a boss fight lower than APL +4.
You're the GM. You can (and should) challenge the players no matter what the surround math says to do. There are GMs who can game low CR monsters to be way vicious, and there are others who just up the CR. In the end, CR is a guideline that shows you the relative strength of monsters, nothing more. If you are finding that "challenge" corresponds to a higher number than you expected, simply adjust the number!
I have to agree here. I just don't see why having a single (or even multiple) 18 or 20 is a gamekiller.
I'm sorry:(
I didnt know you felt this way man. Want to redo our campaign or just start Espers instead? I admit I liked to 'cheese' but I've been gettin better at this.
Cody, it's not your game I'm talking about, bro. That one's going just fine.
And thanks everyone for the...advice? Most of it is just "go 15 point buy," which really doesn't help with the current campaign, but I do have a few ideas involving punishing traps and a horde of zombies that may or may not be backed up by goblin ranged support.
We'll see what Saturday has in store.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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The question is -- are they actually crippling themselves to do this and are they honestly that 'overpowered' and does it fit the character they are trying to play?
Because remember while you are the GM they are the players -- all they have control over is their PC... intruding on that should be done very carefully if at all.
Not every fight has to be a challenge and not every challenge has to be from the foe.
This.
Given their choices it's obvious that your group likes a certain style of play.
Now it would be easy as a GM for you to target their weaknesses and throw encounters at them that would keep them from using their awesome melee abilities or target their weaknesses. Sure you could pick them off with archers, pummel them with punishing dex and diplomacy checks, or chuck a few nearly invincible swarms at them. That would "challenge" them no problem. However, I doubt your players would find the experience very enjoyable.
While an adequate level of challenge is generally a good thing, don't forget to let your players have a good time in the process by allowing them to do what they do best as well. Let them be heroes and keep in mind the ultimate purpose is to have fun.
The question is -- are they actually crippling themselves to do this and are they honestly that 'overpowered' and does it fit the character they are trying to play?
Because remember while you are the GM they are the players -- all they have control over is their PC... intruding on that should be done very carefully if at all.
Not every fight has to be a challenge and not every challenge has to be from the foe.
This.
Given their choices it's obvious that your group likes a certain style of play.
Now it would be easy as a GM for you to target their weaknesses and throw encounters at them that would keep them from using their awesome melee abilities or target their weaknesses. Sure you could pick them off with archers, pummel them with punishing dex and diplomacy checks, or chuck a few nearly invincible swarms at them. That would "challenge" them no problem. However, I doubt your players would find the experience very enjoyable.
While an adequate level of challenge is generally a good thing, don't forget to let your play have a good time in the process by allowing them to do what they do best as well. Let them be heroes and keep in mind the ultimate purpose is to have fun.
I don't know if this is in response to my last post. But be sure that I'm not attempting to hinder their fun. The problem I'm finding is that the combats that my group seems to remember are the difficult ones that really test them. So a mix of a horde of zombies (easy fodder for these guys) with goblin archers and traps will be challenging, but also, I hope, not punishing enough to steal the fun out of the game.
My goal is to make everything enjoyable, not to facilitate the GM vs PC mentality. The problem with the 18s is that standard (APL, APL+1) encounters don't even drain resources. A hack and a slash later, and they're done without even losing 1 HP.
So hopefully mixing things up will make the game a little more interesting for everyone.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I've used the same generation method for years and don't allow point buy characters. Each player is allowed to roll 4d4, drop the lowest die, in three sets of six. They get to pick the set they like best and arrange them as they please. :)
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My goal is to make everything enjoyable, not to facilitate the GM vs PC mentality. The problem with the 18s is that standard (APL, APL+1) encounters don't even drain resources. A hack and a slash later, and they're done without even losing 1 HP.
So hopefully mixing things up will make the game a little more interesting for...
Sounds good. It seems like you have the right attitude.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in your particular group there aren't a whole lot of resources to drain to begin with (like healing for example), and the difference between challenging and a devastating loss could be blurry at low levels.
I don't think the extra +1 to hit and damage is really skewing things too much for you.
IMO it's quite simple, if all of your players are min-maxed, IE everyone has high str, crap for will, dex etc... then a bard, wizard etc... would be their greatest weakness. A group with no will saves, could be TPKed by a single color spray (I wouldn't TPK them if it went to that, I'd probably have them tied up while unconscious. That actually would simultaniously be a plot-hook, and a life lesson.
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Push skills and social interactions. Make it so it isn't possible for thog to carry his big ole 2hander and heavy armor. If you are playing a combat heavy ap pcs will build to suit the situation. Though an 18 in a primary stat after racial modifiers really isn't too far fetched in a 20 point buy though the class played really dictates this.
IMO it's quite simple, if all of your players are min-maxed, IE everyone has high str, crap for will, dex etc... then a bard, wizard etc... would be their greatest weakness. A group with no will saves, could be TPKed by a single color spray (I wouldn't TPK them if it went to that, I'd probably have them tied up while unconscious. That actually would simultaniously be a plot-hook, and a life lesson.
Actually we do not know that anything you have said here is the case at all.
And that's not the definition of min/max I grew up with.
What we do know is they have a lot of 18 strength scores -- you can do that without killing all your other states, and it's likely that the magus has a decent (at least) will save.
They could each easily have:
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7 (magus)
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 12 (fighter)
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10 (samurai)
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7 (ranger)
Which means they probably have rather nice save throws.
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With a standard 20-point buy, an 18 in a single stat should practically be EXPECTED for any S.A.D. class. You don't even really need to sacrifice much to get it. You can have a human with 18, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12 if you really want. For a fighter, barbarian, or most other martial classes, a 12 in CHA is largely useless unless they plan on pumping Intimidate, so many players opt for 10 or less in that stat in favor of higher DEX and/or CON. WIS is slightly more important, as it influences Perception checks and Will saves (which are used much more often than social skills in a typical campaign) so a 12 here is pretty common. INT is also not terribly useful to martial characters, particularly human ones (who already get extra skills anyway), so this one is also frequently left at 10 or less.
Basically, what I'm saying is that, due to the racial adjustments in Pathfinder, 18 is the new 16. Almost any character is going to have one. Those that don't are either multiclassing, aiming for specific feat combos, playing a M.A.D. class, or self-nerfing intentionally.
I started a new game a few weeks ago, level 1, pretty standard stuff (20 point buy). There's a magus, a ranger, a fighter and a samurai. The only one without an 18 in strength is the magus. This has happened a few times. Not just with warriors and strength, but also with wizards and intelligence, sorcerers and charisma, etc.
And I am really getting tired of it. I can't pit standard enemies against these guys. I'm forced to throw things like bugbears against a level 1 party because they just shred everything else. And I do understand that it's a party of warriors, and that they normally shred enemies, but it's happened before with high save DCs and ridiculous rogue ACs.
How do I discourage this kind of character-building? I understand that everyone wants to be effective in combat. But "effective in combat" does not equal "meat grinder with legs." A warrior can be effective with a 14 or 16 at level 1.
Thanks in advance,
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
To answer your question, i first would aks that you tell me this:
What do you want out of your players?
10 little kobolds with 2 hps can become a problem for that type of group... since hitting them will kill them anyway. There are enough they can't kill them all in a single round.
Creatures with high stealth can easily get the drop on a party without good perception.
As someone said earlier, attacks from a guarded position will really tweak their reality.
10 little kobolds with 2 hps can become a problem for that type of group... since hitting them will kill them anyway. There are enough they can't kill them all in a single round.
Creatures with high stealth can easily get the drop on a party without good perception.
As someone said earlier, attacks from a guarded position will really tweak their reality.
Remember the magus though -- he can get several at a time with AOE spells... if he has the prepared.