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Hi all, I will be starting a PFS char soon and have decided to go 2h Paladin. I have used a Sword n Board TWF Paladin in a home campaign and while I liked it, I fancy going for the extra juice offered by a 2h.
For stats I am looking at something like:
Str: 18 (16+2 Racial)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Wis: 10
Int: 7
Cha: 15
Obviously the plan is to jump Cha to 16 at lvl 4. I've gone with the 18 Str because it always bothered me to have an odd modifier when using 2h.
I have always been a fan of great saves which is why I love the Paladin. It is also why I am considering going Half Elf instead of Human.
By going Half Elf I get:
+2 against enchantment spells (so most Will save spells)
Replace the skill focus feat with a +2 bonus to Will saves.
Immune to sleep
Low light vision
+2 on Perception (almost making up the fact it is not a class skill)
Given that Will tends to be the nastiest of all saves, having my Cha bonus, the high Pally Will save, +4 from being Half Elf seems pretty darn solid.
What I lose by not going Human:
1 Feat (Not a big issue, being 2h means my need for feats is far fewer than a TWF build)
1 Skill per lvl (This is the painful loss. At only 1 point a lvl due to Int, an extra skill would be nice)
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So, what would you go for? Human or Half Elf? Will that extra skill point make a massive difference?
Also, if anyone has any Feat suggestions or even alternative point spend, by all means any and all advise is wanted and appreciated. I haven't thought much beyond Power Attack :P
Go half elf. Low light vision is nothing to sneeze at.
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Over 12 levels that missing feat isnt gonna hurt but you'll feel its loss until at least level 5.
Paladins get insane saves after level 2 or 3 so that +2 against charm isn't that big a deal. The +2 to will saves overall is very nice but once you hit level 6 or so again, it isn't really needed.
As for perception? Use a trait to get that as a class skill if its a worry for you.
I'd go human - the benefits of mixed parentage will fade after 5-6 levels, where as the loss of that feat will be felt for the same period.
Edit: Int 7? Really?!
Forest Gump - the Paladin.
The feat does not even concern me for the frst 5 lvls. In fact, a lot of Characters get Iron Will as a feat, so essentially I have traded my free feat for that but with the bonus of stacking Iron WIll with it if I really wanted to.
Of course I could get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency a high crit 2her, though Falchion will likely serve well enough as actual die size is not that vital.As far as I am aware the only Trait for perception requires you to be an Abadar follower.
Int 7. Is less than smart I admit, how stupid that is depends on your comparison. If you are kind enough to actually believe your average Intellect person is 0, then 7 is pretty stupid. I personally consider 8-9 average (yes, the average Joe suffers a negative modifier), maybe its because of 3.5 back when stats started at 8 as default.
So, 7 is not very smart, but is not special needs either. Though frankly I think anyone crazy enough to commit to Paladinhood must be a bit stupid by default
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I'd actually go human; not necessarily for the feat, but the skill point. Most gains from half elf aren't that hot.
If you're willing to dump, go:
Str: 19
Int: 7
Wis: 7
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Chr: 16
(your -2 Will will be made up with +3 Cha bonus... better to dump and get +1 across the board. Take a trait for +1 more will). And @ 4 you'll have that 20 Str for 2d6+10 damage at +9 to hit, probably with cleave).
Having Power attack + furious focus from the start does up your damage potential a lot, and 2 skill points gives you diplomacy and 1 more. Human has Cleaving Finish online at 5, which is really good for them (often a free attack).
For better saves, take Hospitiler and protection domain. Scales nicely, and stacks with everything.
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Have to admit, double dumping is too much for me. I already hate taking Int down.
Also, -2 Will somewhat nullifies the advantage of the Paladin for saves.
At lvl 5, forgetting magic items I would have a save of 4 (I think base) +3 Cha for +7 total. A Will save is likely to be 15-17 depending on lvl of spell and assuming high casting stat. With a +7 I need 8-10 on the roll, if I have -2 that means 10-12, that is too big a risk for my liking.
With Half Elf I have +9 or +11 which makes things look a lot healthier when it comes to saves.
Hell, if I wanted to stack trait and Iron Will I could have +12 or +14, but I guess that would be overkill :)
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Of course I could get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency a high crit 2her, though Falchion will likely serve well enough as actual die size is not that vital.
If your GM will allow it the Nodachi from ultimate combat has the same damage and crit as the ECB without being an exotic weapon.
If not falchion would be fine, on average the falchion does .5 damage less each hit(compared to the Nodachi/ECB), hardly worth a feat getting the ECB unless you're wanting to finesse a two hander
and keeping that in mind, if you go half-elf and keep adaptability you can use it to boost your perception
Though frankly I think anyone crazy enough to commit to Paladinhood must be a bit stupid by default
I actually laughed a bit at that
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Str: 18 (16+2 Racial), Dex: 12, Con: 14, Wis: 10, Int: 7, Cha: 15
I dislike these stats in fighters, let alone paladins -- you are as slow as a snail and forfeit (due to lack of skills) any ability to use a mount or Use Magic Device effectively -- which is like throwing half your character away.... to become yet another cookie-cutter meathead stomping around in plate. The sort of fighter whom I almost feel guilty for when my cavalier is ranging all over the battlefield dropping things left and right before the other guys can even trudge close enough to anything to swing his weapon.
Think outside the infantry box.
--//--
"Princess Mononoke"
STR:14
-- Why 14? You're a paladin, not a bruiser; your later-levels damage comes from your smites and other abilities, not raw ability scores like a barbarian or alchemist.
DEX:14
-- Because paladins make good archers; also planning on light armor for better mobility and higher touch-AC. Also necessary for Combat Reflexes.
CON:12
-- Once they have Lay on Hands, paladins need CON less than any other fighting concept.
INT:12
WIS:07
-- Paladin dump stat in Pathfinder; serves no use whatsoever except for those few kinds of will saves we do not eventually become immune to anyway. (And Perception and Sense Motive scores -- but you can't be perfect in everything, and an INT:07 build wouldn't have points to spend on those anyway.)
CHA+18
-- The far and away more important stat.
human racial alternatives: Eye for Talent, Heart of the Wilderness
-- "Say, what, Rufus??" Give up human bonus skill and bonus feat? Yep! -- Eye gives us the best mount in the game, and Heart makes us harder to kill than a barbarian. Both take a while to scale up, but then paladin is an end-loaded build.
character traits: Armor Expert, Dangerously Curious
-- Armor: Since we are not a cavalier, we can't have armor check nerfing our Ride check. Curious: put that massive CHA score to use by becoming a buffing machine -- and who better to buff than yourself and your mount, with whom you share spells?
01 fight1 [dragoon][Mounted Combat][Skill Focus:Ride], Ride by Attack
02 pala1 [smite][aura]
03 pala2 Combat Reflexes
04 pala3
05 pala4 Indomitable Mount
06 pala5 [bonded mount]
07 pala6 Spirited Charge
08 pala7
09 pala8 Power Attack
* Essential dungeon equipment: wands of Reduce Person (750gp) and Reduce Animal (4,500gp) which you UMD as appropriate.
* A gnome or halfling paladin can pursue exactly the same build without altering feats (because this particular human build does not contain more).
* The addition of mounted combat and Combat Reflexes (with lance or other polearm) results in more overall damage output due to multipliers and opportunity attacks, as well as less received damage due to opps dropping some targets, and ability to use mount as cover.
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Skerek: It will be for PFS, so whatever is allowed there I can use.
Mike: While your build is interesting, it just isn't for me. I hate archer builds and really hate Paladin archers, just a personal thing, it irritates me even if they are stupidly powerful.
Mount is handy when I am not in tight space. Admittedly i have not done many PFS scenarios so I don't know how often that will be an issue.
True, I could go around with a shrink wand or two, but it's just too much cheese for me. I could be a Gnome or Halfling but..ugh, what horrible little races.
Basically I am a stubborn and old fashioned in that when I think Paladin I am narrow minded and think of a classic hero standing up front inspiring his allies. While a mount fits that idea well enough, running around 3ft tall either by race or by shrinkage just doesn't do it for me, nor does cowering at the back with a bow.
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Statwise, if everyone thinks going to 7 Wis is a good plan then I guess being Half Elf is pointless, the idea of Half Elf was for the extra Will saves, but it looks like many are suggesting starting with a -2 to them anyway. Have to admit that suprises me a bit as Will spells tends to be deadly and I would have thought pretty much guaranteeing a save would be good. A +5 Will save at lvl 5 sounds terrible to me.
Also, if 12 Con is viable for a Pally build, then by keeping 14 I can always take a skill point as my favoured class bonus which could make up for 7 Int and allow for keeping Wis at 10.
Hmm, so many choices
depends how often does your gm use magical sleep. often i'd go half elf
can you use alternative racial traits. if yes then go half elf and take dual minded. plus low light is pretty sweet. but then again so is an extra feat
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As I say, it's all dependant on the PFS scenarios on how much magical sleep or Low Light vision is used.
The loss of the Feat for +2 Will I have no issue with. The loss of a skill point per lvl is painful though as it means I only get 1 or sacrifice hp for a second.
Any advise on skills to go with? Diplomacy is usually an obvious one for me as a Paladin. But I don't know if there is anything specific I should go for that would help with society side quests
As I say, it's all dependant on the PFS scenarios on how much magical sleep or Low Light vision is used.
The loss of the Feat for +2 Will I have no issue with. The loss of a skill point per lvl is painful though as it means I only get 1 or sacrifice hp for a second.
Any advise on skills to go with? Diplomacy is usually an obvious one for me as a Paladin. But I don't know if there is anything specific I should go for that would help with society side quests
i try to suss out what everyone else in my group is playing. i leave the diplomacy for people with high charisma. i've seen intimidate work out great for a pally though.
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Mike: While your build is interesting, it just isn't for me. I hate archer builds and really hate Paladin archers, just a personal thing, it irritates me even if they are stupidly powerful.
Look Ma; no archery feats! :-)
Main use of DEX:14 and Armor Expert trait: wear mithral breastplate with zero check penalty and enough "bonus room" to permit up to a DEX:20.
Mount is handy when I am not in tight space. Admittedly i have not done many PFS scenarios so I don't know how often that will be an issue.Paladins summon their mounts, so it's not really a problem at all. Carry a wand of Grease, and you'd be surprised what it can squeeze through.
True, I could go around with a shrink wand or two, but it's just too much cheese for me.Are you kidding? You're traveling with spellcasters in your party -- people who summon monsters...and sometimes even turn into them.
I could be a Gnome or Halfling but..ugh, what horrible little races.
Careful now insulting the wee folk; one of 'em might be a Dragon Style fighter with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists -- the scimitar is dangerous, but it's the left hook you really have to watch out for.
Having Power attack + furious focus from the start does up your damage potential a lot
For the first 4 levels, Weapon Focus is MUCH better than Furious Focus. Unless you are undecided on your weapon of choice, I'd definitely take WF over FF any time for the first few levels.
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I agree obviously WF early > furious focus, but unlike a fighter you cannot trade out feats. My build typically wants furious throughout; I don't have a desire for WF for a long time.
I agree, Str >> Cha. Generally in PFS 18 Str 14 Con 12 Dex 7 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha is perfect; if you have 5 more build points I'd probably get that 16 Cha, given your need for saves.
It is also worth noting that Holy Tactician is a good archetype, and you can take it with the feat that gives everyone +1 on saves for each person adjacent (max +4). That means great saves for everyone, not just you.
If you went half-elf, I would recommend this build
16
14
12
12
7
16
EWF: Fauchard
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Power Attack
5: Adept Champion
7:
9:
11:
Take the exotic weapon proficiency: Fauchard with your half elf bonus, and as others said your will save will still be good after level 2, at least far better than any other martial class. You can also bump that 7 wis up once with your level for a "free" +1 to will saves.
And with it you get:
Reach- the good ole Fauchard is a reach weapon, so you get extra distance. This helps your ability to get into combat, with medium armor at least you are still moving at 20' and sometimes that extra bit helps. Add to this that one of the most common buff spells is Enlarge Person (not to mention potions) and this just adds to the distance at which you can hit people.
Damage- the 16 str may be a hard one to swallow at first, but you have to realize that with just a potion of Enlarge person, you are back up to doing near the same damage you would have before.
Critical Range- The fauchard has a 18-20 crit range. This is great for multiplying damage with the keen ability or improved critical. Being able to double smite damage is fun!
Battlefield Control- With the right selection of feats, you can be doing all sorts of bad things besides strict damage that can be useful in various situations. Adept Champion can really help you get some extra bonuses to whatever maneuver you want to do. And since you have a 10' reach weapon, say goodbye to Attacks of Opportunity.
You can build a pretty wicked trip build with this as well, since you can actually get greater trip by level 11. The fauchard is a trip weapon, if you do heirloom weapon, you can double its bonus to trip. Then bump your intelligence one, take combat expertise, improved and greater trip. and at level 12 with Adept Champion, you are looking at a +29 to CMB to trip if you don't even have a strength belt or a magical weapon.
Survival: Regardless of what people say about a 12 constitution, you can heal yourself as a swift action, making you a fine meat shield. With this build you also have room for toughness if you like, but extra lay on hands would probably net you more HP in the long run.
Skills: Count em, 3 per level. Mom would be so proud. UMD, diplomacy, ride, Sense Motive, what ever you want to do, its all in your reach now.
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I think I'd sooner have the 15 Cha over the 12 Wis so that at lvl 4 I can get it to 16 to get +1 on all saves rather than Wis giving just +1 to Will. Especially if I do go Half Elf and have powerful Will saves anyway.
I won't have 5 more points as it is a PFS char. Have to admit I do love the teamwork feat that gives +1 to saves for each person, but I am not a fan of the Holy Tactician due to the change to smite.
I think I am fairly happy with the stats of the char, my big concerns are:
Is all the extra Will save worth it for PFS? (certainly in home games Will saves tends to be the scariest oponent)
Where do I spend my 1 lonely skill point if I do go Half Elf, is it worth losing 1hp per lvl for extra skills and rely on LoH to 'buff' my hp?
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I did not realise Furious Focus was so popular, I always thought it was fairly redundant as WF works fine at lower lvls and at higher lvls your main attack bonus is large enough that you are almost always getting a hit meanwhile the +1 to your iterative attacks would be more valuable
At lvl 8 I would imagine a To Hit of 8+6 (20 Str)+2 (estimate +2 weapon). So +16, -3 for PA leaves +13. So Furious makes it +16 but WF makes it +14.
Second attack is at +11, +8 with PA. Furious won't effect it, but WF makes it +9.
Take into account Haste for another attack and you have a choice of:
Furious Focus:
+16/+13/+8
or WF:
+14/+14/+9
So, first attack is a little less likely to hit but your other attacks are improved.
Not that it is necessarily an either or, I guess you could get both. I have to admit I have not gone down the 2h route very often so am not familiar with what feats are a good choice beyond Power Attack, and later Improved Crit, I am prety much a blank slate, Step up could be an option.
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Edit: Just saw Oterisk's post, it's certainly a cool build, but I do plan on making another character who will like be a bit of a combat trick master with Trips etc.
Oh, for added fun and another option take a level of Hungry Ghost Monk.
One level of monk gives you:
+2 to all saves
Improved Unarmed Strike
Combat feat: This is where I would get Combat Expertise for extra AoO's
Punishing Kick: you get to push people around without them having a save, very nice.
Add to this Pushing assault, and if you can hit you will avoid full attacks all day long.
Bad guy: I run up to you and hit.
You: I get an attack of opportunity as you come close. Now its my turn. Punishing Kick, 5' step, go ahead and come at me again.
At higher levels, you can kick them back, and then pushing assault them back again to keep large monsters with 10' reach from full attacking you.
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Holy tactician's smite is actually better beginning about level 8, which admittingly is most of the way through PFS. The share the bonus is huge, as is able to "smite large groups" (PFS rarely has "just one baddy"). It's round based, but does the same bonuses, and replicates much of the highly-touted 11th level pally ability.
You only get 2 bumps ever in pFS (unless this is your 1 retirement character who briefly gets a 3rd), so having one odd doesn't help you very much. You'll be better off with 20 Str (+2 for item) levels 8-12 then just getting +1 save/smite.
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Hmm, well this is likely my retirement char, but you have a point. I could get Str 20. I assume money is not too hard to come by so getting a +2 Cha item would be easily managed too to get to 16. Though I have always liked getting an 18 Cha on my Paladins...but it makes sense to go 20Str 16 Cha rather than 18 and 18
Still not entirely convinced by the tactician. The smite lasting 1 round until lvl 4 makes me cringe with flashbacks of the 3.5 Pally. Also, the effect only works against the target I hit, so unless I am spreading out and hitting multiple mobs, it is mostly only ever going to be against one guy. Lvl 8 seems a long time to wait to get the ability half decent, especially as a normal Paladin I could go with Oath of Vengeance to have extra Smites for the days. Though I admit I do like the Teamwork feat.
Talking of the Teamwork Feat, it is a Standard action to activate but it does not look to have a duration, so I can start it at the beginning of the day and keep it going?
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Yep, you can even keep a few situational ones around. Like the one that let's everyone act in the surprise round if one person spots (and all who spot get full round instead of partial actions). Or the above-mentioned save one. Then when combat starts standard action so all flankers get +4. Meanwhile your mount can be your "teamwork friend" and the two of you can have them all on.
Yeah, early levels the smite is nowhere close as good; though really you'll meet few enemies that can take your 2d6+10-12 damage (smite) and still be standing. Later it stays on for all of the mobs, so is better for the way most pathfinder mods "pan out".
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Do I need to use a standard action though? It states to start Battlefield Presence I need to use a standard action, but as there is no duration for this I can presumably start it before battle (for example, when travelling close together in corridors I may want Shake it Off active to give the team + to saves in case of traps or suuprise Wizard nastiness!) then come combat I can swift action from one Feat to another.
You mentioned Mount, I know that the Tactician gives up its actual Divine Bond, but if I were not to go that route, should I be going with weapon for Divine Bond or the mount. I know the mounts use is limited due to me not being small and not having feats for mounted combat, but he makes for a sturdy companion. I found with weapon bond I rarely used it due to the standard action to activate
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Ah, failed tO notice the Holy Tactician gave up mount; animal companion teamwork is something I've done before and thought it was a good trick. OK, well you get one for free, and can swift-action change it for free. As long as you are heard, it is on; if someone moves away from you, it goes off for them and needs to be re-activated.
So one for battle one for out may be all you should get; pending doing a 3-level dip into inquisitor (which would be cool for a lot of reasons, but i don't love multi, especially in PFS).
I generally prefer mounts, even if I don't ride them, an always around flank /fighting buddy is better until about level 10 or so, when PFS is mostly done. Horses are actually strong combatants (one of the best from 4-7) and can trample people fine without you.
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I disagree about charisma being the main stat for a paladin, a paladin is a front line fighter, and that means str >>> all.To be a front-line fighter you just need good armor-class. (My halfling paladin has, on occasion, gone full-def while a brainless monster flailed impotently against him as the rest of the party shot it to pieces -- very effective technique. If one wants to show off, cockatrice cavalier is the role one is looking for.)
Finally, I want to support the mention that for levels 1 - 3 Weapon Focus is better than Furious Focus.
I don't even like Power Attack before 5th -- it's just a feat that makes you miss. (Paradoxically, it's a worse choice for those who are already very damaging -- they have more to lose in a missed attack.)
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For what it's worth, Oath of Vengence has made being a high-Cha mediocre Str Paladin much more justifiable. You're meh till level 4, then you have a boatload of smites. If I were to do it I'd go all out and 2-weapon smite-fight (you should effectively be able to smite 1-2 times per combat) with dex-based weapons (all attacks get smite benfits). Those first 3 levels would suck though; thereafter you'd be an evil-killing machine (neutrals would be blah, but even that would get better once you can afford agile weapons).
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Tempting though the TWF route would be with many Smitey goodness, I don't want to be putting my eggs in one basket - non evil monsters, or worse, a poorly balanced PFS team (always possible) where my LoH become pretty vital for keeping me alive. Not to mention trying to get a full attack can sometimes be a pain.
Of course there is also the Feat tax of TWF.
If I really wanted endless Smiting fun though, ploughing my Feats into extra LoH gives me an extra Smite per day
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Oath of Vengeance forfeits Channel Positive Energy (something a paladin does better than most clerics, making them the ultimate pinch-healer after the Empowered Fireball strike hits the PCs right in the middle of a stretch of everybody's-rolling-2s) and really chews into LoH uses per day -- and also with implications for feat-chains among other things. So, build carefully.
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Have to admit, my Paladin in the Adventure Paths has never had to use his Channel Positive Energy so not overly concerned there.
However, given that I have a low AC due to no Shield and feats not being used on AC, I do need my LoH to help keep me alive, so burning them all for Smiting fun may not be the wisest approach.
Funny really, I came here looking for an answer of Half Elf or Human, ended up with all these other great ideas to think about and still haven't decided on which race :D
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Well, your AC will be good. Pic this guy:
The Halfling of vengeance (oath of vengeance-gain a domain (pally)
Level 5
Str: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Dex: 16 (18)
Con: 12
Chr: 19 (21)
AC: 23 (mithril breast plate of agility +1, +1 ring)
Lay on hands: 8 (use spirit for one)
Saves (with +1 cloak) are all at +8 (+1 cloak +1 Halfling +5 Cha +1 protection)
Swings 2 +1 Shortswords (+7 for d4+6/d4+5)... includes Piranah strike
5 smites / day makes that +12 for d4+11 / d4+10 (28 AC VS those opponents). Basically 1 evil guy per fight, with 1-2 fights using twice.
1: Weapon finesse
3: Two weapon fighting.
5: Pirannah Strike
Pretty good; gets you the saves, AC, and decent damage output (great VS evil, especially if a bard is in the party). Only minor (?) issue is sucking till 4th level (pretty hardcore), which in and of itself may make you want to avoid. Scales very well though; this is the far better build for high level play (saves, smites will go through roof).
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Just as an aside... I STRONGLY recommend starting off with at least a 12 in Intelligence, bumping to 13 at level 4 if you can. Why?
Because you can get the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat at level 5. The spell choices are absolutely phenomenal, though they are slightly less stellar if you have a dedicated party buffer.
Just food for thought.
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Just as an aside... I STRONGLY recommend starting off with at least a 12 in Intelligence, bumping to 13 at level 4 if you can. Why?
Because you can get the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat at level 5. The spell choices are absolutely phenomenal, though they are slightly less stellar if you have a dedicated party buffer.
Just food for thought.
The problem with paladins is that they simply do not have enough spellcasting for it to amount to a damn. Money is generally not a problem once in the double-digit levels, meaning any neato-keen spell you want is just a cash+UMD away....so what "absolutely phenomenal" spells did you have in mind which are worth taking the feat?
The problem with paladins is that they simply do not have enough spellcasting for it to amount to a damn. Money is generally not a problem once in the double-digit levels, meaning any neato-keen spell you want is just a cash+UMD away....so what "absolutely phenomenal" spells did you have in mind which are worth taking the feat?Just as an aside... I STRONGLY recommend starting off with at least a 12 in Intelligence, bumping to 13 at level 4 if you can. Why?
Because you can get the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat at level 5. The spell choices are absolutely phenomenal, though they are slightly less stellar if you have a dedicated party buffer.
Just food for thought.
Depends on the group. You can fill quite a few holes in a buff sequence with that feat.
Whats with the popularity of going the semi-retard with the 7's?
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I think the sucking till 4 is a big killer for me - I don't play PFS often enough to make it worth while, could take me years to make it to 4!! The other issue is Feats for TWF which require full action to make use of...and of course, the nail in the coffin - having to be a Halfling :D
Of course, smite does love more attacks. How about going Half Orc with Toothy trait to have a secondary bite attack with smitey goodness! I can trade out Ferocity for +1 to all saves if I want to boost them, I also get Darkvision which is pretty cool.
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No one loves to go with crap Int, but with a 20 point buy and the need for decent Str, Con, Cha and ideally not a terrible Dex, something needs to go. Even with the 7 Int I would like my Cha to be higher, I would have liked 16 Cha at least, currently I sit at 15, though Thalin talks sense that it may make more sense to go 14 with 12 Wis instead due to onl really getting to enjoy 2 attribute bumps. Then again, given how long it will take for me to get to lvl 8, it may be worth sticking with 15 Cha and bumping to 16 at lvl 4.
I just couldn't imagine that all these people are really playing their characters with such low stats in a RP manner (essentially playing as dim witted semi retards).
And I reckon people would still do it even if it was 25 points, or 30...
I love RPing low stats. RPing being an average person is hard, RPing a 5 to 7 stat is easy. (yay for 5 cha dwarves)
I love RPing low stats. RPing being an average person is hard, RPing a 5 to 7 stat is easy. (yay for 5 cha dwarves)
Sure, playing a low CHA is semi entertaining for a few good sessions.
Chew some dip and curse and fart and be socially maladjusted - can be quite a hoot.
Perpetually playing a semi-retard every time on the other hand?
I love RPing low stats. RPing being an average person is hard, RPing a 5 to 7 stat is easy. (yay for 5 cha dwarves)Sure, playing a low CHA is semi entertaining for a few good sessions.
Chew some dip and curse and fart and be socially maladjusted - can be quite a hoot.
Perpetually playing a semi-retard every time on the other hand?
Well the key is to have SOME redeeming feature, either being book smart (wizard) street/folk smart (wisdom) ,likeable (Gump the paladin), or actually being a nice person. Theres more than one way to have a low score.
Current dwarf druid/fighter- Karsk: taciturn and not used to common. Uses a 200 year old dwarven dictionary and gets things hillariously wrong. (Like the name for his war pony-sparkles) Makes very blunt, strait to the point but true, statements: but will
Dwarf monk fighter- (deceased, ran into a giant crab) Very shy and sweet, stutters and gets flustered when someone can't do the talking for him. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. Why take him into the dungeon? Cause He'll be an impenetrable wall for you to hide behind right down to his last hit point.
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Most likely some would dump stats no matter what, but plenty would not. Someone trying to get every last bit of optimisation would consider it, but for most, once you have those core attributes to the lvl you are happy with, the idea of losing skill points for a not so important atribute boost seems less worthwhile.
As for playing a semi retard as you put it, again that comes down to your view on the stats. I personally do not consider average Joe to be lucky enough to be a 'no modifier' kind of guy. Average to me is 8-9 in a stat, so being at a 7 does not make you a complete idiot or hideously ugly. As I say, maybe this is from the pre Pathfinder era where all stats started at 8 as default, but 7 Int is not making you an idiot or special needs, you can read, you can write, you may not be a great guy to have around for a sophisticated dinner party discussing the finer works of Shakespeare, but you are hardly a 'paint by numbers' kind of guy
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Having said all that, I do struggle to make a 7 Int and Wis kind of guy as being weak in both areas starts to push towards being slow
When they have an Int AND a Wis running at 7?
I wonder how the player at the table would react if we just referred to them as 'the vegetable' all session? Do you need to use 'Handle Animal' to get them to the fight?
When the argument comes down to you having to rate against farm animals to look smart... well you have probably already lost the argument :p
When you add up the Int & Wis, the guard dog in the party has a better final number than the paladin build above by Thalin..!
I wonder how the player at the table would react if we just referred to them as 'the vegetable' all session? Do you need to use 'Handle Animal' to get them to the fight?
technically its still diplomacy, but fighter snacks aren't out of the question.
Will you grapple the Aboleth for a fighter snack?
How about TWO fighter snacks... goood boy.
Will you grapple the Aboleth for a fighter snack?
How about TWO fighter snacks... goood boy.
Reckon if we just took that tone to everyone who turned up at the table with that sort of build we might see a social change? :p
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I'm going to go super-radical and ask if you think it would be more fun to play a half-elf (major themes of being an outsider and parental issues) or one of the human types with the opertunity to play up any attitude.
In short I think either build is fine so figure out which you want to roleplay and choose it.
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I'm going to go super-radical and ask if you think it would be more fun to play a half-elf (major themes of being an outsider and parental issues) or one of the human types with the opertunity to play up any attitude.
In short I think either build is fine so figure out which you want to roleplay and choose it.
I have to admit, that is a big reason why Half Orc suddenly seems kind of tempting, becoming a Paladin to prove all those haters wrong that he isn't just some savage beast and in fact lives up to morals far higher than most are willing to
-------------Actually playing low Int and having Fighter snacks as an incentive would be kinda fun :D
Actually playing low Int and having Fighter snacks as an incentive would be kinda fun :D
Sloth loves Chunk?
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No one loves to go with crap Int, but with a 20 point buy and the need for decent Str, Con, Cha and ideally not a terrible Dex, something needs to go.
Due to Swift LoH, you actually don't need CON much as a paladin. Arguably you need it less than a cleric.
STR+12
DEX:12
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA+17
...based off the highly efficient 15,14,12,12,12,12 array, Sir Jeffrey has +10 in total stat bonuses at 4th; and isn't quite as addlepated as everyone thinks he is. For every nickel he spends on his sword, he spends a dime on armor and shield, and is eventually extremely difficult to hurt while remaining mobile.
He's older and grayer and doesn't hit as hard as a younger man, but he has a wealth of experience and knows what to do in any given tactical situation, be it charge, fight-defensively, run around and heal, suss out a liar, or try to talk some sense into the opponent before steel is even drawn.
Equipment: dwarven plate, mithral buckler, keen fauchard, locking gauntlets, Winged Boots, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Headband of mental superiority +2
Build: paladin12
Traits: Threatening Defender, Dangerously Curious
Feats:
01 Exotic Weapon Proficiency:Fauchard, Combat Expertise
03 Improved Disarm
05 Combat Reflexes (wears Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2)
07 Second Chance
09 Power Attack (has upgraded Belt to Physical Might +2)
11 Improved Second Chance