Another problem with crafting is that it says
"1. Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp)."
How many of us have seen adventures or campaigns where the value of an item varies from location to location? Sure, we can assume that the craft skill refers to the Core Rulebook pricing, but it doesn't actually state that.
Also, it's really far more complicated than it needs to be. I read through the 8-page PDF that was mentioned earlier (I can't remember the name, sorry). It certainly makes crafting more realistic and reduces the math quite a bit. I haven't used it (and probably won't since my players aren't into crafting) but it looks like a move in a better direction.
It's called "Making Crafting Work." I still disagree with the way in which alchemical items are handled. A Smokestick, for example, is considered "Complex," which gives it a craft time of 1 week, which is the same as "most armors." A Sunstone takes as much time as "an ocean-going vessel." Still, it's a far sight better than the base crafting rules.
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The 'profession' part of WoW is the most boring and frustrating part of the game. Grind, grind, grind for what? So you can flog a bunch of half useful stuff at the Auctioneer? I don't think I've ever used anything I've made. The economy gets so out of whack because the players are OCD about levelling that the materials are far more expensive than the finished product. And we want bring elements of this to Pathfinder?
Crafting is meant to be done in the background, during downtime between adventuring (great call on the montage). Players that want to craft should play something like Kingmaker where there is ample time for this to happen. There's nothing more frustrating to a GM than a player who wants to bang out a bunch of horse shoes in the middle a super suspenseful plot thread.
It is all too much like real work. Don't you have enough drudgery in your real life?
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I have an issue with the way most people are reading Fabricate:
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
First, it does not specifically say that a person can make a masterwork item. Then again, it does not specifically say that you cannot. However, it does say that "magic items cannot be created or transmuted" which means you could make a masterwork item, but it could never be used to create a magic item in the future.
Secondly, and most importantly, the first line of the spell description says "material of one sort" meaning it would be impossible to create nearly any weapon or any armor as all of them have multiple types of material. Seems to me that Fabricate would be required multiple times to create the components for say a suit of full plate armor. You would still be required to have an armorsmith put it together. Fabricate is used to speed up the process of making a more complex item.
Even if these checks were not inside the spell, why would any GM allow a reasonably-accessible, magical spell to bypass a skill that nearly everyone on the planet uses.
Why doesn't everyone become a wizard? How many people in a populous actually have 15 intelligence and the drive to become a wizard so he can make armor? Maybe one? In all honesty, I would be surprised if a ninth-level wizard spent his sole fifth-level spell on such a mundane task. Scribing a scroll or making a wand would be much more profitable.
Even if these checks were not inside the spell, why would any GM allow a reasonably-accessible, magical spell to bypass a skill that nearly everyone on the planet uses.
Because it is rules as they are written.
Why doesn't everyone become a wizard? How many people in a populous actually have 15 intelligence and the drive to become a wizard so he can make armor? Maybe one? In all honesty, I would be surprised if a ninth-level wizard spent his sole fifth-level spell on such a mundane task. Scribing a scroll or making a wand would be much more profitable.
I don't know, why don't they become wizards?
I have an issue with the way most people are reading Fabricate:
** spoiler omitted **
First, it does not specifically say that a person can make a masterwork item. Then again, it does not specifically say that you cannot. However, it does say that "magic items cannot be created or transmuted" which means you could make a masterwork item, but it could never be used to create a magic item in the future.
You're misreading this. You can't use magic items as the base material for Fabricate, nor can you make an item with an enchantment on it with Fabricate. It says nothing about the item being mundane forever. Additionally, you can utilize your Craft check to make the items Masterwork, hence the "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
Secondly, and most importantly, the first line of the spell description says "material of one sort" meaning it would be impossible to create nearly any weapon or any armor as all of them have multiple types of material. Seems to me that Fabricate would be required multiple times to create the components for say a suit of full plate armor. You would still be required to have an armorsmith put it together. Fabricate is used to speed up the process of making a more complex item.
In Pathfinder, an item is considered to be made of one material only, even if that breaks with reality. Additionally, if you're making a full plate suit with Fabricate, you are an armorsmith, as you must make a Craft: Armor check for something that complex.
Even if these checks were not inside the spell, why would any GM allow a reasonably-accessible, magical spell to bypass a skill that nearly everyone on the planet uses.
Why doesn't everyone become a wizard? How many people in a populous actually have 15 intelligence and the drive to become a wizard so he can make armor? Maybe one? In all honesty, I would be surprised if a ninth-level wizard spent his sole fifth-level spell on such a mundane task. Scribing a scroll or making a wand would be much more profitable.
GMs are generally compelled to acknowledge that Fabricate is part of the core rules, just like it was during 3.X. The real problem is when it gets fueled by a Wall of Iron. :-p
As for the "why doesn't everyone become a wizard" thing...well, to be honest, many people find them to be boring because of their excessive power level.
I have an issue with the way most people are reading Fabricate:
No, you have a problem with what it says.
"magic items cannot be created or transmuted" which means you could make a masterwork item, but it could never be used to create a magic item in the future.
This is silly. The duration of the spell is instantaneous. Once the spell is cast the item is indistinguishable from any other.
Secondly, and most importantly, the first line of the spell description says "material of one sort" meaning it would be impossible to create nearly any weapon or any armor as all of them have multiple types of material.
Or you just make an axe where the handle is an octagonal hunk of adamantium instead of wood.
Or are you really going to try to rules lawyer that it takes 8 months to rivet a wooden handle onto a full tang axe head?
Even if these checks were not inside the spell, why would any GM allow a reasonably-accessible, magical spell to bypass a skill that nearly everyone on the planet uses.
Because its a spell in the core rulebook, and not every DM is willing to use cheesy rules lawyering shenanigans to keep the craft skill balanced.
Scribing a scroll or making a wand would be much more profitable.
Its not an or proposition. A wizard can only work on magic items 8 hours a day, they have to rest for 8 hours, leaving them 8 hours to do whatever: including the 6 seconds it takes to cast this spell.
When a diamond ring and a cubic zirconia ring (or man-made diamond ring) have drastically different crafting times, because the diamond is worth more, I call shenanigans.
Me too!
It is going to be harder to make an item out of steel than it is out of gold, yet the gold will take significantly longer to produce the exact same reult by the craft mechanics.
When they based it on worth of the item, as opposed to the materials and the intricacy they really blew that out. Similarly 'routine' items should be sped up a little. After a while, Billy will get pretty quick at making horseshoes, yet as he doesn't make may pots he might slow back down as they aren't as familiar.
Magic item crafting just makes it worse.
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In reply to Serisan:
The exact sentence is:
"Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell."
It does not say partly nor presently a magical item, it says magic items cannot be created. You cannot have a magical longsword without making a masterwork longsword. If you make a masterwork longsword with this spell and then enchant it, you have partially created a magical item. Sorry, but the conduit and the enchantment both count.
I concede that this spell is able to make a masterwork item.
Please find the passage where Pathfinder specifically says that items are made of one material.
In reply to Serisan:
The exact sentence is:
"Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell."
It does not say partly nor presently a magical item, it says magic items cannot be created. You cannot have a magical longsword without making a masterwork longsword. If you make a masterwork longsword with this spell and then enchant it, you have partially created a magical item. Sorry, but the conduit and the enchantment both count.
I concede that this spell is able to make a masterwork item.
Please find the passage where Pathfinder specifically says that items are made of one material.
Serisan is correct. The spell is Instantaneous and thus happens immediately with no long term ramifications.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
Partially doesn't count. Creating a Masterwork Longsword is making a Masterwork Longsword. Deciding to then go on and start a totally separate process of making a Masterwork Longsword into a Magical +1 Longsword has no connection.
If the Spell were Permanent
Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.
You may have a little more ground... but not much.
Unfortunately for you, it clearly states my case.
It says magic items cannot be created by this spell. It does not say that the product of this spell may never be used to create a magic item. they're not the same thing. Your "interpretation" is 100% pure house rule, not raw, and does not save the crafting process from the ignominity of complete uselessness once a caster picks up this spell.
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Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
WOW! Thank you Dorje. You have solidified my point!
At the end of that rule it says though the consequences might be long-lasting.
And with that, the spell Fabricate cannot be used in any fashion to make a magical item at any point of time. The question of whether or not such a thought was subjective has been clearly defined by my opponent.
Win !!!
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Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.WOW! Thank you Dorje. You have solidified my point!
At the end of that rule it says though the consequences might be long-lasting.
And with that, the spell Fabricate cannot be used in any fashion to make a magical item at any point of time. The question of whether or not such a thought was subjective has been clearly defined by my opponent.
Win !!!
No... still not there.
Yes, the consequence is the item has been created. A Masterworked item now exists where a pile of metal used to be. Nothing more. The spell is done. That was the consequence. No magic item was made for modified by the instantaneous wash of magical energy.
Unless you're going to argue that somehow Fabricate leaves some kind of cosmic stamp that reads "No Magic Items Shall Be Made From Me" on the item. That smacks of the spell energy remaining, which would be what Permanent is.
But fine, disagree. Just don't be surprised if you find many tables "playing wrong." Including the developers.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.WOW! Thank you Dorje. You have solidified my point!
At the end of that rule it says though the consequences might be long-lasting.
And with that, the spell Fabricate cannot be used in any fashion to make a magical item at any point of time. The question of whether or not such a thought was subjective has been clearly defined by my opponent.
Win !!!
The "consequences" here are the item you create. The spell energy comes and goes. The only reason you would not be able to enchant the resulting sword is if it were somehow already magical (as in a permanent spell duration). Another example would be a planar binding spell. It is instantaneous duration with a long lasting consequence; i.e. you now have an outsider on the material plane.
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Here's another example of why it needs a serious revamp.My 2nd level Ranger wants to create a Mighty composite Longbow (+4 Strength) so he use his 18 Strength effectively. He has a total of +6 in his Craft (Bow) skill. The DC for the check is 23, so he would have to roll a 17 or better to make any progress on his weapon. Meaning he would only be successful 20% of the time. Assuming he doesnt screw up and roll a 12 or less (60% chance) and lose half his investment in materials and gold, he would complete his bow in about 50 weeks, almost a year.
Now let's add in the failure rate of 60%. Of those 50 weeks, 30 of them are 'critical' failures (i.e. failure by 5 or more) resulting in a loss of half the original raw material (83 gp, in this example). So in order for my characters to build his weapon of choice it would take him almost a year and cost him over 2600 gp's, when he could walk to town and buy it 'Off the Rack' for 500 gp's.
Too ambitious a project, you say. Perhaps but this is how I would like to roleplay my outdoorsy, woodsy, type of Ranger.
I think you found the root of the problem!
See, the NPC crafters know that if you can make the items you were gonna buy, then they lose income! Not only can you adventure, and craft items for yourselves?! pishposh! no way, the crafters need money to feed their families! so they blackmailed the developers in to making sucky crafting rules so you stopped stepping on the poor merchant's business!
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I have an issue with the way most people are reading Fabricate:
** spoiler omitted **
First, it does not specifically say that a person can make a masterwork item. Then again, it does not specifically say that you cannot. However, it does say that "magic items cannot be created or transmuted" which means you could make a masterwork item, but it could never be used to create a magic item in the future.
Magic items can't be created through the fabricate spell. If you make a masterwork item, either through fabricate or through masterwork transformation, you could later enchant it.
Heymitch, where is the documentation that says you can enchant a masterwork item made from Fabricate?
It is a masterwork item. As such it can be subsequently enchanted.
There is nothing in the Fabricate spell that suggests its products are anything other than mundane items as per any other mundane item manufactured the traditional way.
Indeed this has been the running logic in the Heirloom weapon debate when it broke.
It USED to be masterwork and thus enchantable, and is now just 'generic'. The point was you can now transform it to masterwork with the appropriate spell, and then enchant it from there.
False.
PPOR.
Using the cost of a crafted item as a base is an attempt at balance. It really has nothing to do with real-world mechanics, nor should it be compared as such.
I tell my players to leave the crafting to NPCs, as it isn't their desire as adventurers to perform such mundane tasks. If it were, they'd be crafting, not adventuring.
They contract NPCs to craft items for them, and this becomes a non-issue.
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Heymitch, where is the documentation that says you can enchant a masterwork item made from Fabricate?
It's in the absence of documentation to the contrary.
Unless, you read this...
fabricate[/i] spell]Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell.
...and you fail to notice that it only says that you can't use fabricate to make a magic item.
It says nothing about not being able to ever enchant an item manufactured with this spell.
I can't use fabricate to turn a pile of iron into a magic sword. I can make a sword. If the sword is masterwork (or is later made masterwork by the spell masterwork transformation), I can later enchant it normally.
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I think there's something so right about the Fighter standing out the forge beating a lump of steel into shape to forge some kind of 'X, slayer of Y' weapon.
It's very cinematic.
I'd say the same for some Elven Ranger finding the 'sacred wood of the old heart of the Ent forest' and carving out a Longbow.
It's not as fun to just put in your lunch order at the shop and drop back to collect it later.
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Using the cost of a crafted item as a base is an attempt at balance. It really has nothing to do with real-world mechanics, nor should it be compared as such.
I tell my players to leave the crafting to NPCs, as it isn't their desire as adventurers to perform such mundane tasks. If it were, they'd be crafting, not adventuring.
They contract NPCs to craft items for them, and this becomes a non-issue.
Really? Do you then use the crafting rules to determine how long it's going to take the NPC to actually produce the item they've contracted?
That level 1 commoner is going to take a year or more to make a mighty composite longbow, and you make your PCs wait a game year to pick up their mundane weapon?
Alright then, if that works for you then I guess crafting isn't broken...
Using the cost of a crafted item as a base is an attempt at balance. It really has nothing to do with real-world mechanics, nor should it be compared as such.
I tell my players to leave the crafting to NPCs, as it isn't their desire as adventurers to perform such mundane tasks. If it were, they'd be crafting, not adventuring.
They contract NPCs to craft items for them, and this becomes a non-issue.
Really? Do you then use the crafting rules to determine how long it's going to take the NPC to actually produce the item they've contracted?
That level 1 commoner is going to take a year or more to make a mighty composite longbow, and you make your PCs wait a game year to pick up their mundane weapon?
Alright then, if that works for you then I guess crafting isn't broken...
Who said anything about level 1 commoners?! Is your world's guard captains composed of level 1 commoners? I hope not.
I've generated Expert NPCs throughout my campaign world to deal with such situations. It makes for good roleplaying to seek out the world's top crafter, after all.
:)
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Who said anything about level 1 commoners?! Is your world's guard captains composed of level 1 commoners? I hope not.
I've generated Expert NPCs throughout my campaign world to deal with such situations. It makes for good roleplaying to seek out the world's top crafter, after all.
:)
So, they find 20th level expert craftsmen, and then wait 6 months for their bow?
Okay.
Who said anything about level 1 commoners?! Is your world's guard captains composed of level 1 commoners? I hope not.
I've generated Expert NPCs throughout my campaign world to deal with such situations. It makes for good roleplaying to seek out the world's top crafter, after all.
:)
So, they find 20th level expert craftsmen, and then wait 6 months for their bow?
Okay.
So, you seriously don't think a mighty composite longbow is already made somewhere? Really?
I love how you make so many assumptions, and in such a condescending fashion to boot. Nice!
Needless to say, yes, it takes that long. Historically, that's why they stockpiled during peace time. If it was that quick and easy, why would they bother?
Much of what the OP pointed out I agree with 100%. PC's that want to craft as well as Expert NPCs took up the wrong calling. They should have focused on crafting. It's ridiculous to think otherwise, IMO.
The one aspect of crafting I do take issue with, though, is the difference in time between the copper and CZ ring and the gold and diamond ring.
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Surely this is just a big wind up by Irrashenal.
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Win !!!
Slow down there Charlie Sheen.
where is the documentation that says you can enchant a masterwork item made from Fabricate?
Where in the game does it say that you can't?
Quite frankly, if you killed a guy who had a Masterwork Longsword, there's no tag indicating whether it was made by hand, or by the fabricate spell. This simply does not exist.
Twisting the general wording of "consequences" to mean anything other than "a masterwork sword is left behind by the spell" is an effort to twist a rule in your favour.
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But on a more serious note, how does that change anything. Fabricate still makes anything faster. 99% of a worlds population can't give two-spits about magical items. Having everything built in record time is what breaks the situation.
Surely this is just a big wind up by Irrashenal.
I suspect so. His only responses so far have been to nitpick a universally unaccepted reading of the Fabricate spell, and completely ignored the more relevant and uncontested problem of "tying value to complexity and time".
I'm thinking this was a soapbox attempt at namecalling (MMO and "greed" references), rather than an actual attempt as understanding the situation.
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In Pathfinder, an item is considered to be made of one material only, even if that breaks with reality.
Was that statement an opinion or are you going to supply us with a text and a page number? We are still waiting on the documentation that says everything is Pathfinder is considered one material. Otherwise you cannot make a sword or armor with Fabricate and the entire argument about whether you can enchant it or not is futile.
Twisting the general wording of "consequences" to mean anything other than "a masterwork sword is left behind by the spell" is an effort to twist a rule in your favour.
Sounds more to me that you are twisting the word to make what it really says in your favor. The word consequences is not subjective. It means good or/and bad outcomes. You get a masterwork sword, but it cannot be enchanted. Rather elementary English right there.
Any Paizo developer want to way in on this subject?
Let's take an example from an embraced source, Making Craft Work which allows full plate to be made in 1 week's time. If you allowed 1 week instead of 9 months, you could have 38 sets versus 1 set. Does that seem reasonable?Define "reasonable". From Making Craft Work about full plate: "Yes, this is unrealistic. No one finishes a suit of full plate in seven days. The goal of this system, however, isn't realism, but usability."
I mean really...how do you make crafting enjoyable? If you can answer that question you will be able to sell a book.Well, not a book, but certainly an 8-page PDF.
Have this product, love this product, advertise this product as a replacement for the base craft mechanics whenever I can (note, I had NOTHING to do with this product, I just bought it and absolutely love it) it has completely replaced the standard craft rules at our table. As you say Mark, not for "reasonability" but for "usability." Sure the crafting rules as is are probably more "realistic," (whatever that means in a magical fantasy world) but, as is, they are not usable. So you need to define broken. Are they broken from a sense of the real? Maybe not, but are they broken from the sense that adventuring players will never actually find the time to craft anything worthwhile to their level of play while still adventuring?
I also found it huh-huh-huh-larious that the OP was trying to assert that the rules are fine, but then went on to say they need a little changing. Either they need changing or they don't. If they need changing, then, by definition, they're broken. A little broken is still broken. You don't go to the doctor and say my arm is a little broken so I'll still be using it like normal.
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So, you seriously don't think a mighty composite longbow is already made somewhere? Really?
I love how you make so many assumptions, and in such a condescending fashion to boot. Nice!
I didn't make any assumptions. I simply read your original post...
I tell my players to leave the crafting to NPCs, as it isn't their desire as adventurers to perform such mundane tasks. If it were, they'd be crafting, not adventuring.
They contract NPCs to craft items for them, and this becomes a non-issue.
You insist that crafting isn't a problem, because your players simply contract NPCs to craft items for them.
And your problem is that I'm assuming that they're not shopping for what's available, because you specifically indicated that you have them contract items to be crafted.
So, is it really not a problem for them to contract items to be crafted? And when they do are you using the rules to determine how long they wait, or are you hand-waving the completion time?
If you aren't using the rules as written for craft, then what you're really saying is that crafting isn't a problem in your games, because you simply ignore the rules. If so, that isn't much of a defense of the crafting rules.
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The word consequences is not subjective. It means good or/and bad outcomes. You get a masterwork sword, but it cannot be enchanted. Rather elementary English right there.
So everyone who disagrees with you about Fabricate (and I haven't seen any posts at all supporting your interpretation) is incapable of understanding elementary English? That's your position?
So, you seriously don't think a mighty composite longbow is already made somewhere? Really?
I love how you make so many assumptions, and in such a condescending fashion to boot. Nice!
I simply read your original post...
Spoiler:I tell my players to leave the crafting to NPCs, as it isn't their desire as adventurers to perform such mundane tasks. If it were, they'd be crafting, not adventuring.
They contract NPCs to craft items for them, and this becomes a non-issue.
You insist that crafting isn't a problem, because your players simply contract NPCs to craft items for them.
And your problem is that I'm assuming that they're not shopping for what's available, because you specifically indicated that you have them contract items to be crafted.
So, is it really not a problem for them to contract items to be crafted? And when they do are you using the rules to determine how long they wait, or are you hand-waving the completion time.
If you aren't using the rules as written for craft, then what you're really saying is that crafting isn't a problem in your games, because you simply ignore the rules. If so, that isn't much of a defense of the crafting rules.
I'm thinking more like read into, but that's no reason to be condescending toward you, so I'll just continue.
Crafting magic items requires only a MW base item, which, if available, is quick and painless. If it is unavailable, then they contract a crafter to craft the base item.
We play by RAW, and in our 'real world', these things would take a good deal of time to craft in those days, so it should in a similar fantasy setting. Our campaign isn't loaded with wizards, and those who do practice wizardry understand the delicate balance of that thing called ECONOMY. So, that's a non-factor.
We fast-track a lot, so months can pass in a few sessions, and voila! A nice, new MW item! Our group appreciates that there are breaks between major adventures. They don't occur daily. We even have a chance to age at a reasonable rate, instead of being 18-21 our entire career. I know, crazy, huh?
Not too difficult to overcome what many consider 'lame' rules in this way.
A rewrite of the crafting rules would be great to deal with a lot of the inconsistencies, but to say a Masterwork suit of full plate should take days/weeks or even just a month or two is quite a stretch to me.
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Our campaign isn't loaded with wizards, and those who do practice wizardry understand the delicate balance of that thing called ECONOMY. So, that's a non-factor.
...okay, not to threadjack here, but would you please consider having your wizards explain this 'ECONOMY' to some folks in our world? 'Cause no one on this plane seems to really get it. :P
HELP! My players are recruiting a horde of over 9,000! How long will they have to wait between raids on villages to insure the human smiths have tossed out enough scrap so they can get more slicers? Or better, maybe actually take the finished human weapons.
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Here's how I know that practically nobody actually uses the crafting rules in their game.
As a magic item crafter, I can make a Heward's Handy Haversack in 2 days (1 day if I rush). So can anyone else who crafts magic items. You can agree or disagree with how long it should take, but per the rules that's how long it takes. There's no question or ambiguity.
How long does it take a mundane crafter to make a tanglefoot bag (for example)? Well, that's not an easy question to answer. Just how good is their Craft (Alchemy) skill? How lucky will they be with their multiple rolls to craft it?
If the players find an expert leatherworker in a village, and he doesn't have a masterwork backpack ready-made, who is actually going to use the rules to determine how long it takes to make one?
No one. They're just going to tell the PC to come back in two days time (or one day, or a week, or whatever), and it'll be ready for them.
Whenever it comes time to actually consult the craft rules to see how long it takes to make something, nobody is actually doing that (not that I blame them).
I don't need a calculator and repeated die rolls to figure out how long it takes to enchant your armor, or make a Cloak of Resistance.
So, no one is actually using these rules. Because they're pretty much unusable.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.WOW! Thank you Dorje. You have solidified my point!
At the end of that rule it says though the consequences might be long-lasting.
And with that, the spell Fabricate cannot be used in any fashion to make a magical item at any point of time. The question of whether or not such a thought was subjective has been clearly defined by my opponent.
Win !!!
Words of Power, while very innovative, was poorly tested. Selected Lengthy Intensified Corrosive Bolt is a great example of that. Sorry, RD. As much as I like it, it's obviously over the top. Also, buffs could be combined with instantaneous duration effects, meaning permanent, non-dispellable buffs...as written, at least. This resulted in 5th level Clerics giving hundreds of thousands of gold in terms of item equivalence to the party by giving each player +4 all stats indefinitely.
Core Rulebook, Magic chapter:
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting."Might" meaning "we can't detail every example of instantaneous magic and say whether or not it is long-lasting, mainly because we have a limited amount of space and we expect the GM is not a robot and has a reasonable idea of whether or not the consequences of a particular instantaneous spell should be long-lasting
Believe me, you're barking up the wrong tree with that line of reasoning.
Any Paizo developer want to way in on this subject?You mean 'weigh in'.
And I'm going to have every weapon my players find have been fabricated by a mage and unable to be enchanted from now on. Thank you! :)
Now if you did the same thing, but with major creation rather than fabricate, they wouldn't even be able to argue.
Well.
They wouldn't have any legitimate basis for arguing. Everyone can always argue. When we first started playing at epic levels, one of the players insisted that we were all interpreting Multispell wrong; that there was no possible way anyone could ever get more than one Quickened spell per round (or the game would implode or something, I guess).
He had no idea what the correct interpretation was, of course, but was dead certain that we were wrong :)
Edit: Too Many Typos == Not Enough Coffee
After looking at some seemingly simple to make items i really wonder how anyone gets things done using craft.
A Rowboat and a glider come to mind if we assume both are complex items DC20 (for the fastest time we bump that to a 25) a rowboat takes only a week to make if you can hit the DC. The Glider however takes 10 weeks if you can only hit the same DC.
Don't get me wrong A glider shouldn't just appear but why would it take you less time to make a water tight boat than a air worthy glider.
Time is my main problem with crafting.
Though it is sometimes questioned, it is generally understood that adventurers in pathfinder can gain several levels in the course of only a few days. This can entail new languages, entirely new skill sets, higher level spells, the ability to use new weapons they've never seen, and much more. In days. And those days probably involved some walking, a bit of talking, and a lot of stabbing.
Yet as soon as a crafter gets above 6th level of so, the amount of time it takes to make items the crafter and his adventuring associates would probably like to have becomes prohibitive. If it stayed that way, it might work out. However, the higher the level, the worse it gets. At higher levels those craft feats are nearly useless (outside of scribe scroll) unless the GM makes it a point to have months or even years go by between quests.
Does this make sense? I don't think so. Gaining a level to 10th level wizard I can put 10 ranks into linguistics to learn 10 languages in a night. If the same wizard chooses to spend only the money he earned from 9th to 10th level on making an item, it will take over a month. If others in the party want one as well, several months. And since typical modules take place over the course of days and span multiple levels, it's possible the wizard may not finish his 10th level item until he has downtime after 13th level at which point he has accumulated another 78,000 gp or another possible 156 days of crafting.
Assuming the system isn't intended for high level crafters to be making bracers of armor +1 their whole career, it simply doesn't work for the typical adventuring group.
The word consequences is not subjective. It means good or/and bad outcomes. You get a masterwork sword, but it cannot be enchanted. Rather elementary English right there.
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The spell's consequence is creating a masterwork weapon. That's all the spell did. Spell ends, you've got a masterwork weapon. Wait a round or 2000 years, nothing else happens from the fabricate spell.. it's just a plain old masterwork item.
Making it a magical item is a consequence of the Craft Arms and Armor feat. You follow the rules for magical item creation, and the consequence is a magic item.
How you can figure that making it magical has anything to do with the fabricate spell is beyond me.
I think you are stuck with the burden of proof here. Prove to me exactly how, by the rules, the fabricate spell is the catalyst for creating a magical item.
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While you are at it, how about addressing the far more pressing concerns:
1. Fabricate still makes mundane equipment at a speed that makes crafting pointless. Crafting is still broken by the fabricate spell, regardless of how magic items are treated.
2. How exactly does the amount you can sell something for make someone who's crafting it take a longer time or have a higher check? I was under the impression that the reason something costs more is because of rarity, supply and demand, usefulness, etc. What do these things have to do with how hard it is to make or how long it will take?
These are the reasons crafting is broken. Your OP does nothing to address this, and in fact only goes about masking the problem or outright suggesting house rules (which is a statement about it's brokenness, not that it's not broken).
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Honestly... it feels weird telling the original poster to stop derailing his own thread.
If you don't want to discuss the real concerns here, and would rather push the pointless and fallacious argument about the fabricate spell, then I'm done here. This is a soapbox thread, not an attempt at discussion or understanding.