In the game that I am currently playing in, every player is level 5.
At level 5 we are supposed to have 10,500 gold worth of items.
Each player currently has 1/10 of what we should have as level 5 characters. It has gotten so bad that the cleric refuses to memorize any restoration spells because it is too costly to cast it.
The summoner is afraid to send his eidolon into combat because everything we have been fighting deals ability damage and the eidolon can not heal it.
What class would you guys take so that you had no reliance on magic items provided by your DM?
Bring your concerns up with your GM and figure out why he is playing this way. Does he consider magical items a "crutch"? (And if so does he know the game pretty much assumes you are obtaining them as you go?) Is he trying to run a low-magic world (and doing it badly by not compensating for the lack of magical items when planning encounters)? Does he think players get too much loot in standard campaigns and doesn't realize that he's gone too far in the other direction?
A game is not a dictatorship. It's about a group of people working together at a project- including the GM and players both. If he's running it like one you the players need to have a talk with him even more urgently.
That is the strange part. If an old character dies and a new one is created the new character comes in with appropriate gold per level.
The best character in our game is a fighter with 10.5 k in items. The rest of us are simply rocking a single masterwork item or maybe a +1 armor bonus ring/amulet.
How experienced is your GM?
If he isn't willing to change, Oracle or Sorcerer are your best bets.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Master; summoner is actually a great choice; take the feats that let you get +1 summon and give them blindsight etc. Spam battlefield, win, rinse, repeat
Right now you could be dumping d4+2 Celestial Riding Dogs with +4 Str / Con 9 times / day; and they would shine light, be immune to blindness, have blindsense, and eat enemies alive. Haste them. Rinse, repeat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the game that I am currently playing in, every player is level 5.
At level 5 we are supposed to have 10,500 gold worth of items.
Each player currently has 1/10 of what we should have as level 5 characters. It has gotten so bad that the cleric refuses to memorize any restoration spells because it is too costly to cast it.
The summoner is afraid to send his eidolon into combat because everything we have been fighting deals ability damage and the eidolon can not heal it.
What class would you guys take so that you had no reliance on magic items provided by your DM?
Xbox. I wouldn't play with a DM that blindsided me like that.
What class would you guys take so that you had no reliance on magic items provided by your DM?Just a couple thoughts to start: Did your GM make clear that it would be a game where magic items are rare? If not, have you brought this situation to his attention?
As for the summoner - he can gain spells that will allow him to heal his eidolon. If he prepared poorly for the eidolon to get hurt, then that is an issue with his character build.
As for what class to play, I would recommend inquisitor. In the last game I ran, the party wound up in jail and stripped of equipment. The inquisitor was dealing more damage and had a higher AC than any other member while running around 'naked' as he called it. He was the backup healer, amplified combat ability by using his judgements, and acted as a skill monkey for the group in many situations. A good all around versatile character, with or without items.
Restore eidolon still requires 100-1000 gp in diamond dust, and ability damage is dealt in almost every encounter. Lesser restoration eidolon is possible, but he would have to take a feat the next time he levels to be able to grab it at his next level up to cast it.
Master; summoner is actually a great choice; take the feats that let you get +1 summon and give them blindsight etc. Spam battlefield, win, rinse, repeat
Right now you could be dumping d4+2 Celestial Riding Dogs with +4 Str / Con 9 times / day; and they would shine light, be immune to blindness, have blindsense, and eat enemies alive. Haste them. Rinse, repeat.
It has been ruled that haste doesn't work on natural attacks for the purposes of the second attack. It was also ruled that Augment Summoning doesn't affect SLAs.
So...what are the good points of this game?
I have been asking myself that question for at least 3 months.
|
|
That's fine; Master summoner can still do good; first, cast the summon spells (dip a level into cleric and be lawful good so you can get the feat to cast as a standard action, plus the restoration domain since it sounds useful in that campaign). Then toss out lantern archons instead (who could care about augment summon) and the dogs from your spells. They can only keep you down so long :).
To quote the DM:
DM: "I am not at all happy about the Eidolon gaining flight at level 5."
Summoner Quote: "The wizard and witch can cast fly at level 5."
DM:".............They will need to make fly checks."
I'm going out on a limb and guessing the only good thing about this game is that you have one.
I believe it may be time to cut your losses.
Ding Ding Ding Ding.
It is the classic, I only have brown water to drink........but I am so thirsty.
My guess is that the GM is a veteran of an older playstyle. One where magic items are rarer and both more valued and less necessary. So the GM is either new to 3.X/Pathfinder or never learned to adjust his playstyle to match. You can do a lower magic item game, but you have to know what you are doing.
On the other hand, you shouldn't be fighting that many foes that do ability damage at level 5.
Whatever the case is, the GM needs to learn to be less stingy with his items, or less harsh with his monsters.
That is the strange part. If an old character dies and a new one is created the new character comes in with appropriate gold per level.
The best character in our game is a fighter with 10.5 k in items. The rest of us are simply rocking a single masterwork item or maybe a +1 armor bonus ring/amulet.
I assume this was pointed out to the DM. What was the response?
RP-wise, my character would react to the low treasure world by going to great lengths to glean every copper from encounters. Strip corpses down to their smallclothes, then see if those are worth taking as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I assume this was pointed out to the DM. What was the response?
RP-wise, my character would react to the low treasure world by going to great lengths to glean every copper from encounters. Strip corpses down to their smallclothes, then see if those are worth taking as well.
Or even better, don't go on jobs without bigger promises for rewards. Refuse to go on missions that don't pay well.
|
|
I mean, if the fighter is front-line the ability monsters will eat him up.
Sounds like any answer we give will be wrong; the GM is nerfing the classes too, and as he goes along. Just play a ranger I guess; they aren't front line (bow) and get great damage without getting close, and comes with a melee beast. GM seems to not totally screw non-spellcasters.
I mean, if the fighter is front-line the ability monsters will eat him up.
Sounds like any answer we give will be wrong; the GM is nerfing the classes too, and as he goes along. Just play a ranger I guess; they aren't front line (bow) and get great damage without getting close, and comes with a melee beast. GM seems to not totally screw non-spellcasters.
The ability damage battles are every couple of days, but the Eidolon is screwed. So there is time to recover, but since the Eidolon doesn't heal, the summoner is simply screwed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So basically the dm is heavy handed, doesn't have a good grasp of the rules, and is completely uninterested in changing? This game isn't worth it. Park me on the go play some xbox bandwagon. Life is too short for crummy dms and bad games.
My guess is that the GM is a veteran of an older playstyle. One where magic items are rarer and both more valued and less necessary. So the GM is either new to 3.X/Pathfinder or never learned to adjust his playstyle to match. You can do a lower magic item game, but you have to know what you are doing.
On the other hand, you shouldn't be fighting that many foes that do ability damage at level 5.
Whatever the case is, the GM needs to learn to be less stingy with his items, or less harsh with his monsters.
I don't think it's necessary to throw the blame immediately on being an old timer. Most of us old timers here got to Pathfinder through 3.x. And besides that, those sorts of DMs/GMs (though we all have stories about them, myself included) were more rare than you think. They just stand out more because they were so hardheaded and bloodthirsty.
The OP hasn't mentioned the age of the GM anywhere that I noticed. The guy sounds more like your standard control freak to me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the game that I am currently playing in, every player is level 5.
At level 5 we are supposed to have 10,500 gold worth of items.
Each player currently has 1/10 of what we should have as level 5 characters. It has gotten so bad that the cleric refuses to memorize any restoration spells because it is too costly to cast it.
The summoner is afraid to send his eidolon into combat because everything we have been fighting deals ability damage and the eidolon can not heal it.
What class would you guys take so that you had no reliance on magic items provided by your DM?
DM
Draw up a simple character. That character commits suicide. Come back as what you want to play with 10.5k in magic items. Suggest the rest of your group do so as well.
Even better -- one player has a string of serial suicide PCs and the rest of the PCs live off the rapidly growing pile of treasure.
----
If I had to pick a class with no money, I might go for a druid.
The gist of it is that the DM is mid 20's but takes DM advice from people who use a lot house rules and misinterpret the rules all the time.
So we have results like. As a standard action the witch casts Sleep at a monster ("Because it was his time to shine", so the Witch said). The area effect of the sleep spell hits the party. The animal we are fighting has more than 5 hit die but we do not.
The 3 members of the party are put to sleep and the animal pulls a coup de grace on one of the characters (not the caster of the spell).
If it is for comic relief, or casualty the DM seems to be more than willing to bend/break rules. But when he feels that one player is too strong, he starts throwing things like CR4 monsters with 27 AC to slow down that player or ability damage monsters. His current target is the eidolon. So every monster has had damage reduction and ability damage dealing ability.
In short it seems like the DM is playing favorites but it is done in subtle ways.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am not a fan of the "make up the rules as I go along" GM. :-(
You need to talk this over with your GM. It's easy to give too much away, but he's overdoing things the other way. He may have a method to his madness, but it's unfair to assume without discussing it further.
|
In the game that I am currently playing in, every player is level 5.
At level 5 we are supposed to have 10,500 gold worth of items.
Each player currently has 1/10 of what we should have as level 5 characters. It has gotten so bad that the cleric refuses to memorize any restoration spells because it is too costly to cast it.
The summoner is afraid to send his eidolon into combat because everything we have been fighting deals ability damage and the eidolon can not heal it.
What class would you guys take so that you had no reliance on magic items provided by your DM?
Monk.
Even unarmed and naked I'm still functional.
In a more serious light. I've both played and run games with this level of loot. They were just as fun as any other game. Having fun does not have to be about increasing the size of your equipment list.
I would talk to the DM about the effect of excessive ability damage in a low loot campaign though.
The main issue is that the DM won't let us suicide our characters out of game. However, if someone does something stupid they are rewarded with a new character and more loot than the group has combined. In addition they are also rewarded with a share of the loot for the quest that we are currently on.
So if I have my character die in combat, I go from having 500g in items to 10,500g in items. As of yet the DM isn't imposing level penalties for bringing in new characters, so they have just as much exp as the rest of us.
I guess I am tired of being punished for being able to keep my character alive. But yea if I got my character killed, I would be right back with a new character of equal level with the rest of the group and appropriate wealth in gear for my level.
I really wish the WBL table didn't exist, because:
1. It is NOT a hard rule, it's a guideline. YGMMV (Your GM may vary)
2. It leads to players feeling as if they are entitled to X gp worth of equipment.
It's a handy guide to have, like monster CRs. Though, I never hear players complaining; "My DM threw 2 CR 8s in one adventuring day. Clearly the encounter guide lines dictate that a party of our level face no more than one a day."
I really wish the WBL table didn't exist, because:
1. It is NOT a hard rule, it's a guideline. YGMMV (Your GM may vary)
2. It leads to players feeling as if they are entitled to X gp worth of equipment.
+1
Exactly. For a level and a half one time (not long ago actually) I didn't give out hardly any loot since 1. the opponents they were engaging didn't have much and wouldn't make sense if they did(plant and animal types mostly) and 2. they had a large battle upcoming which would be a significant horde to make up for it.
Totally worth it I'll add, their eyes literally all lit up as big as dinner plates when I read off what they found there.
|
I really wish the WBL table didn't exist, because:
1. It is NOT a hard rule, it's a guideline. YGMMV (Your GM may vary)
2. It leads to players feeling as if they are entitled to X gp worth of equipment.
Absolutely. Ignore those tables (which aren't mandatory and I won't use them either) and you'll have much more fun. But then again I also tell my players that straight up from the beginning. The GM shouldn't be allowing new characters to use that table though. The way I'd do it is you get the same value of equipment as the rest of the party - if everyone has just a +1 weapon and 2 minor wondrous items, then new character only gets a +1 weapon and 2 minor wondrous items, ect.
Don't know what to say about the Eidolon thing though...maybe he just really hates the summoner class? I've banned the summoner class from my games (world fluff reasons, not just because I don't like it either)
I really wish the WBL table didn't exist, because:
1. It is NOT a hard rule, it's a guideline. YGMMV (Your GM may vary)
2. It leads to players feeling as if they are entitled to X gp worth of equipment.
The problem is the game assumes that wealth will be there, so there needs to be a guideline of some kind. Personally I am axing the whole wealth system and giving whatever abilities I believe are required to the players innately, but the system as written needs wbl and players ARE in fact entitled to a certain level of wealth (if not precisely wbl) and if they dont have it the dm should be adjusting encounters down accordingly.
It prevents arbitrary crap like what is going on with the op from happening where the party barely has a few items to go around, and one player has 10k worth of magic items.
It gives the dm some idea of what is or isnt appropriate for certain level characters, unlike what I saw in some of my early games where one character would get a rediculous item at low levels, and everyone else didnt have 2 cp to rub together to make more.
Creative Director
|
| 26 people marked this as a favorite. |
Whether or not you ignore the Wealth By Level tables... it's VERY important for the GM to be familiar with why they're there anyway. Because one of the things Pathfinder assumes is that the PCs WILL have treasure of a certain amount by certain levels. If you're playing in a game where character wealth is super low, the GM should take pains to adjust encounters as appropriate.
And when a new PC joins the group, he REALLY should give that new PC wealth equal to the average possessed by the party—a situation where the average PC wealth is 500 and a newly created character would have 10,500 is blatantly unfair and disrespectful of the players who HAVE played their characters.
My advice? Start a new game with one of the other players in your group as the GM. If you've already got enough players for a game, having a game with one fewer player (assuming that your current GM doesn't want to keep playing a PC), playing a game with one less player is much more rewarding and fun than playing with a GM who seems to be only interested in tormenting his fellow gamers.
(Of course... we're only seeing one side of the situation here, but it certainly doesn't SOUND like a fun one to be a player in...)
In short it seems like the DM is playing favorites but it is done in subtle ways.
It doesn't sound all that subtle to me.
About the summoner, we have a summoner in the Kingmaker game. Usually he summons things and doesn't even use his Eidolon in combat and he works just fine.
BTW; can someone link to where it says "that Augment Summoning doesn't affect SLAs" or is that a house rule of Mogart's DM?
The WBL tables are also there to help pay for some of the expensive material components of spells as the OP mentioned, Restoration as a prime example. If some spells didnt have expensive mats, PCs would just cast them off all the time. Too expensive and they cannot be cast at all.
In short it seems like the DM is playing favorites but it is done in subtle ways.It doesn't sound all that subtle to me.
About the summoner, we have a summoner in the Kingmaker game. Usually he summons things and doesn't even use his Eidolon in combat and he works just fine.
BTW; can someone link to where it says "that Augment Summoning doesn't affect SLAs" or is that a house rule of Mogart's DM?
Its a houserule, the devs have said it specifically DOES work with SLAs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the game that I am currently playing in, every player is level 5.
At level 5 we are supposed to have 10,500 gold worth of items.
Each player currently has 1/10 of what we should have as level 5 characters. It has gotten so bad that the cleric refuses to memorize any restoration spells because it is too costly to cast it.
The summoner is afraid to send his eidolon into combat because everything we have been fighting deals ability damage and the eidolon can not heal it.
What class would you guys take so that you had no reliance on magic items provided by your DM?
#1 Summoner
Why is your summoner even considering sending an eidolon into combat when funds are low? SUMMONED MONSTERS are PERFECT for this scenario. They don't need healing, ability restoration, level restoration. They are completely disposable, and he can summon them as a STANDARD ACTION. That, is PERFECT for this scenario.
Summoned Monsters always come without equipment or the equipment listed under their entry in the Bestiary, so if your Summoner is equipment starved, it doesn't affect his summoning ability AT ALL. That means his primary ability is unaffected.
Multiple summoners for a single campaign are fine too. They tend to stack very well.
Heck, a FULL PARTY of Summoners would be very effective in a campaign like this, even if none of them ever summons their eidolon.
#2 Bard
If your party isn't properly equipped, a good buffer will do wonders for survivability of everyone else. Furthermore, Bard + Summoner is a nasty mix, since those summoned monsters get very deadly once you start inspiring them.
If you don't have a Summoner, skip the Bard too. Really, have at least one Summoner though.
#3 Sorcerer, Wizard or Witch
This is kind of self-evident, but Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards tend to rely less on equipment than most other classes. Spells themselves don't need magic items to make them work well, and will scale properly, even if your character is unequipped.
#4 Archery based Paladin
With divine bond, the Paladin can enchant his own weapon, which is a big deal when magic weapons are rare. This will give your party a much needed damage dealer that can keep range and support with less armor and AC.
The perfect party of 5 in my opinion in a resource starved campaign would be Summoner, Another Summoner, Witch, Bard, Archery based Paladin
Between the Bard, Witch and the Paladin your healing is more than covered, and melee would involve 2 summoned creatures supported by inspire courage and a wave of arrows from Bard and Paladin, Summoners controlling the battlefield with walls and mists and other "no dc" stuff, and the Witch throwing nasty debuffs.
Lots of DM's are stingy, I played a Shackled City campaign where our party never got a chance to sell anything or shop for anything after level 10 (and we played near level 20). I played a Malconvoker (the 3.5 summoning expert) and owned the campaign.
Its a houserule, the devs have said it specifically DOES work with SLAs.
Thanks, I thought I had missed a memo.
Mogart, I would be interested to know if anyone has tried to talk with the DM about these issues (low WBL and summoner hate)? What has he said about them.
Its a houserule, the devs have said it specifically DOES work with SLAs.Thanks, I thought I had missed a memo.
Mogart, I would be interested to know if anyone has tried to talk with the DM about these issues (low WBL and summoner hate)? What has he said about them.
The DM has addressed the summoner hate. He has said, "The Summoner is at the top of the DPS charts, and does a ton of damage. Giving the monsters extra armor class, and damaging the eidolon's ability scores gives the other players a chance to do damage to the monsters."
He said this right as the 2 handed weapon fighter dealt a 52 damage crit (normally it would have been 26) to a monster that the eidolon missed 4 times against.
A couple thoughts.
First off -- Kthulhu. +1, totally agreed. I hate that darn chart.
Secondly -- Treantmonk, wouldn't an oracle be good on that Summoner/Witch/Wizard list? If not...why? (I'm new to Oracle, but it's looking to be my new favorite class)
Alright, I had a nice big long post going that, in light of the OP's most recent post, didn't seem to apply anymore. DPS charts? Really?
I think this DM is browsing a bit too much /tg/ and taking their...advice...seriously. If no one is having problems with way battles are going damage-wise, going off some arbitrary 'perfectly-optimized scenario' chart is only going to ruin it (as you are evidence of).
Is it possible one of the other players have approached him in order to start this Summoner attacking? Perhaps said Fighter?
The DM has addressed the summoner hate. He has said, "The Summoner is at the top of the DPS charts, and does a ton of damage. Giving the monsters extra armor class, and damaging the eidolon's ability scores gives the other players a chance to do damage to the monsters."
Summoned Monsters should still do the job without Augment Summoning.
I would still recommend Summoners #1. Your GM isn't completely wrong BTW.
What he's missing is that summoned creatures contribute much more than damage. Their main job is to TAKE damage.
Inflicting damage is gravy.
PS: Don't forget the Summon Monster spells on the spell list as well. Make that feat worth something at least. If your SLA critters die faster because they aren't augmented, summon again.
Secondly -- Treantmonk, wouldn't an oracle be good on that Summoner/Witch/Wizard list? If not...why? (I'm new to Oracle, but it's
I would think an Oracle would be OK, because spells are good when profits are down.
That said, in the party makeup I gave as an example, the Oracle isn't bringing as much to the table.
The Oracle's main drawback is the spell list. If you are looking to control the battlefield, that spell list simply has less to offer.
In the party makeup suggested, what the Oracle brings to the table really isn't filling any gaps, while the Wizard and Sorcerer are both battlefield control experts, and the Witch is a debuff expert, the Oracle is neither.
Good stuff.
Alright. I was thinking that was probably the reasoning, but I'm not anywhere near as good at subtle rules nuances as I was once upon a time and wanted to make sure it wasn't something fundamental I was missing.
Thanks for your reply.