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Scanning the playtest release and several posts about the "Make your own race" stuff, I'm getting one of those classic "bad feeling" feelings. The first clue was the very idea of "Make your own race!" after the Eidolon fiasco (that maelstrom is still going on*). The next was some of the completely absurd values of certain things (look at SLA cost for 0 level spells and Change Shape). Then a few of the people with good eyes have made the inevitable completely imbalanced, yet perfectly legal races that Paizo is going to try to "balance" around. Which I asked General Achbar about and you know what his response was (after the Eidolon fiasco).
I am getting the feeling that this is going to be an entirely new "Eidolon evolution" problem, but even worse since it isn't just one class but custom races playable by any class. Paizo just isn't good at getting balancing right, I'm sure there are a couple reasons for this but that's the short version. A book section dedicated to creating custom races is going to be a can of worms that can't be fixed and while not impinging on PFS is going to have a harmful impact on the game outside it.
I think the "Create your own race, for fun and profit!" needs to be tossed right the hell out right the hell now and they should just throw a some extra races in there to fill the space.
*Bet you didn't think I could work maelstrom into a sentence.
I remain cautiously optimistic, as it might give us a reason to play a Barbarian that isn't a Human or a Half-orc. (Some say Dwarf. I say near-complete immunity to spells or infinity rounds of rage trumps Dwarf.)
I haven't seen the playtest yet, is there already a thing in there about special favored class bonuses?
I can agreed with you on this, Cartigan.
It is going to cause problems.
But remember GM has final say.
So if he says no custom races,
no custom races and don't whine like a little b****.
The system is more for GMs to create custom races for their homebrew worlds and have an idea of how to create races that are not perfectly balanced, but close enough.
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I don't think it will have a "harmful impact" any more than the Words of Power system or the piecemeal armor system will have a harmful impact; it'll remain a rarely-used optional system, I suspect.
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I'll be happy as long as I get my Sparkle Elf.
I'll be happy as long as I get my Sparkle Elf.
Is it an OP sparkle elf with wings that is somehow inexplicably scared of caves as a caveat?
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I'm gonna unleash hell on me with this one, but there is always the possiblity for DMs not to allow the system.
I know a lot of DMs who will just allow a player to change one race feature for another so the character better fits a concept or a setting, and only in exceptional cases. Weapon proficiency especially, so the character doesn't need to use a feat for some exotic weapons.
I don't think it will have a "harmful impact" any more than the Words of Power system or the piecemeal armor system will have a harmful impact; it'll remain a rarely-used optional system, I suspect.
Except those are alternate systems. This is an option, but not an alternate so it is more likely to be allowed into a game since you don't have to overhaul the entire game to accommodate it. The whole thing is going to be a huge mess.
I expect the rest of the book to be fairly sub-par as well, so this one section isn't going to stand out by being poorly thought out.
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I don't think it will have a "harmful impact" any more than the Words of Power system or the piecemeal armor system will have a harmful impact; it'll remain a rarely-used optional system, I suspect.Except those are alternate systems. This is an option, but not an alternate so it is more likely to be allowed into a game since you don't have to overhaul the entire game to accommodate it. The whole thing is going to be a huge mess.
It'll only be a mess if GM's allow it without checking it out thoroughly.
If GM's say no custom races, players must hold to it and go with the premade ones. If the GM says OK, he must double check them and point out any concerns he has about the race.
This part is more for GMs than players. As GMs can now fill their custom worlds with their custom races.
This part is more for GMs than players. As GMs can now fill their custom worlds with their custom races.
Yeah, good luck with that selling and argument point.
I'll be happy as long as I get my Sparkle Elf.Is it an OP sparkle elf with wings that is somehow inexplicably scared of caves as a caveat?
+4 int, baby! What else would I want?
Except those are alternate systems. This is an option, but not an alternate so it is more likely to be allowed into a game since you don't have to overhaul the entire game to accommodate it.
Huh? How do you have to overhaul the entire game to accommodate Words of Power or piecemeal armor? And where do you get your definition of "option" vs. "alternative"?
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This part is more for GMs than players. As GMs can now fill their custom worlds with their custom races.Yeah, good luck with that selling and argument point.
I'm not the best seller of points of view, but I stand my ground when it comes to certain things and point out the reasons why.
Why is it more for GMs than players?
GMs make the world you play in and controls what races exist in that world, not the players. If a player wants a Gelfing. But Gelfings do not exist in the world, it does not exist in the world, end of story.
If the GM does allow the Gelfling, the GM has to check it to hell and make sure it's not a power grab and that it can fit in the world, if it fails any of those, it does not exist.
This option is for GMs to fill in any niches that his world is missing or is replacing.
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I think his point is that GMs have been making custom races for their worlds since long before the ARG. They don't need 'permission' from the book to make custom races.
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I think his point is that GMs have been making custom races for their worlds since long before the ARG. They don't need 'permission' from the book to make custom races.
Thank you.
GMs are the one in control of 99.99999999999% of their game worlds.
The players only control their characters and even then the GM has control over the restrictions and rules in character creation.
Players can propose things for characters, but GM has final say.
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If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
IMHO, that benefit is better than the detriment of certain player doing more of what they already do.
Except those are alternate systems. This is an option, but not an alternate so it is more likely to be allowed into a game since you don't have to overhaul the entire game to accommodate it.Huh? How do you have to overhaul the entire game to accommodate Words of Power or piecemeal armor? And where do you get your definition of "option" vs. "alternative"?
I was thinking of armor as DR, my bad. I'm not completely familiar with words of power, but I do know it is still an alternate system.
I think his point is that GMs have been making custom races for their worlds since long before the ARG. They don't need 'permission' from the book to make custom races.
No, my point is saying "It's GM only!" isn't a good selling point. Nor does saying "GMs can ban race creation!" fix the problem with race creation.
GMs can ban all classes that can cast spells, but that doesn't do anything to the fact that spellcasting classes are widely more powerful than non-casting classes.If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
But they aren't balanced. Did you read anything I wrote? If you look at the forest instead of the trees, you see that the ability for players to create uber powerful races is a symptom, not the disease. They can do that because it isn't balanced.
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I think his point is that GMs have been making custom races for their worlds since long before the ARG. They don't need 'permission' from the book to make custom races.No, my point is saying "It's GM only!" isn't a good selling point. Nor does saying "GMs can ban race creation!" fix the problem with race creation.
GMs can ban all classes that can cast spells, but that doesn't do anything to the fact that spellcasting classes are widely more powerful than non-casting classes.But they aren't balanced. Did you read anything I wrote? If you look at the forest instead of the trees, you see that the ability for players to create uber powerful races is a symptom, not the disease. They can do that because it isn't balanced.If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
There is no way that a system like this can be fixed 100% and be perfect.
Perfection does not exist.It is a universal law that no matter what IT is, IT WILL have flaws.
If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
But they aren't balanced. Did you read anything I wrote? If you look at the forest instead of the trees, you see that the ability for players to create uber powerful races is a symptom, not the disease. They can do that because it isn't balanced.
And a GM as the power to say, "Not in my game." I do that in my own game. I banned the Summoner and everything from UM/UC from my game. A GM always has the power to say, "No!" to something.
The following rules allow a GM, or even a player with GM oversight, to create new races that are balanced and mesh with the existing core races.
emphasis mine.
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I think his point is that GMs have been making custom races for their worlds since long before the ARG. They don't need 'permission' from the book to make custom races.No, my point is saying "It's GM only!" isn't a good selling point. Nor does saying "GMs can ban race creation!" fix the problem with race creation.
GMs can ban all classes that can cast spells, but that doesn't do anything to the fact that spellcasting classes are widely more powerful than non-casting classes.But they aren't balanced. Did you read anything I wrote? If you look at the forest instead of the trees, you see that the ability for players to create uber powerful races is a symptom, not the disease. They can do that because it isn't balanced.If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
There is no way that a system like this can be fixed 100% and be perfect.
Perfection does not exist.
It is a universal law that no matter what IT is, IT WILL have flaws.
Being fixed 100% and perfect is wholly different from "Let's let the GM arbitrate it instead of trying to make it make sense."
Did ANY part of the Eidolon nerfing balance it? You know, like the wholly arbitrary limiting of natural attacks? No, because that was never the REAL problem, the problem was giving them 8 arms and using attacks with manufactured weapons. The problem was that they could even GET 8 arms, not that they could attack with all of them. The symptom was addressed half-assedly, not the disease. That is what I am feeling will happen here.
And a GM as the power to say, "Not in my game." I do that in my own game. I banned the Summoner and everything from UM/UC from my game. A GM always has the power to say, "No!" to something.
+1. You'll never see a summoner in my games. Or a gunslinger. Or a gun. Or a sparkle elf. Or a flumph.
I've run "anything goes" campaigns, and quickly learned how little fun it was for me. Other GMs might not have any problem with anything at all. To each his own.
Paizo sells books. They're gonna keep coming, and you don't have to like it all. That's OK.
I think his point is that GMs have been making custom races for their worlds since long before the ARG. They don't need 'permission' from the book to make custom races.No, my point is saying "It's GM only!" isn't a good selling point. Nor does saying "GMs can ban race creation!" fix the problem with race creation.
GMs can ban all classes that can cast spells, but that doesn't do anything to the fact that spellcasting classes are widely more powerful than non-casting classes.But they aren't balanced. Did you read anything I wrote? If you look at the forest instead of the trees, you see that the ability for players to create uber powerful races is a symptom, not the disease. They can do that because it isn't balanced.If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
There is no way that a system like this can be fixed 100% and be perfect.
Perfection does not exist.
It is a universal law that no matter what IT is, IT WILL have flaws.Being fixed 100% and perfect is wholly different from "Let's let the GM arbitrate it instead of trying to make it make sense."
Did ANY part of the Eidolon nerfing balance it? You know, like the wholly arbitrary limiting of natural attacks? No, because that was never the REAL problem, the problem was giving them 8 arms and using attacks with manufactured weapons. The problem was that they could even GET 8 arms, not that they could attack with all of them. The symptom was addressed half-assedly, not the disease. That is what I am feeling will happen here.
That's why as a GM, I BANNED the summoner. I know the Evolution system can become broken.
GMs are in control of content and systems, not players.If you don't like the system don't use, don't allow it, and or not buy the book.
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That's why as a GM, I BANNED the summoner. I know the Evolution system can become broken.
GMs are in control of content and systems, not players.If you don't like the system don't use, don't allow it, and or not buy the book.
God forbid I or anyone else want a product that doesn't have to be arbitrated.
No, that is quite possibly the HIGHEST offense to commit around here. What one must do, clearly, is suck it up, not critique any design, and toss out anything they don't like after the fact.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Remember, plugging your ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you" means something doesn't exist.
And in the same vein, clearly saying "The GM can arbitrate it!" clearly means nothing at all is wrong with what is to be arbitrated and the designers have no need to fix it.Why even DO playtests or editing, just write something up and shunt it out the door!
WOW, you are just bitter at this system for not being good and balanced in the first go. That is precisely what playtesting is for, to get feedback and fix things not 100% fixed, but more than what it was.
Or is it that this system is not the one you imagined it would be?
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Not wanting to troll, Cartigan, but it looks like every thread you start is a rant about a random topic that could be ended with "GMs decide what will be in their game" but doesn't, since it looks like this argument is never good enough.
Right now the system in is playtest. Like any "X creation rules", either it's so bad and nerfed no one will use it, either there is potential for abuse with enough rules-fu.
Any GM worth it's salt will not allow a player to create a race from scratch because it is a call for munchkins ; or if he/she does, it's because the game will be the hardcore, setting-neutral meatgrinder kind where any help is welcomed.
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Yes, this is a , and yes, Paizo before the final product goes off to the printer next year.
{sigh}
I like most of what I see so far. Despite others' fears, I think it'll be more used to tweak the existing races... which will be nice for creating subraces and distinctive ethnicities within the largely monolithic non-human races.
Of course this can be misused. But my experience as a player and a GM -- and not just in D&D -- is that most of the same players who will misuse custom races will find ways to break any other game system, race, class, feat stacks, etc. If the same limited group of players keep abusing the system, then I don't blame the system; I blame the problem players.
I do find it interesting that Paizo has said "While this won't be legal for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, this system will allow players and GMs to add new and innovative races to their game, as well as to add some of the more monstrous options to the party roster."
If they won't allow it in PFS, they obviously know it isn't purely balanced. As others have said, though, when has a system ever been 100% balanced. I, personally, haven't seen a system yet that is 100% balanced. That being said, if there aren't serious improvements in the balance of this little gem, I definitely won't be allowing it at the table.
Not wanting to troll, Cartigan, but it looks like every thread you start is a rant about a random topic that could be ended with "GMs decide what will be in their game" but doesn't
Because no one understands that is not a valid rebuttal to "something is inherently wrong with the game design."
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I do find it interesting that Paizo has said "While this won't be legal for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, this system will allow players and GMs to add new and innovative races to their game, as well as to add some of the more monstrous options to the party roster."
If they won't allow it in PFS, they obviously know it isn't purely balanced. As others have said, though, when has a system ever been 100% balanced. I, personally, haven't seen a system yet that is 100% balanced. That being said, if there aren't serious improvements in the balance of this little gem, I definitely won't be allowing it at the table.
100% balanced is impossible. An attempt at balance and a rationale approach to the issues is what is sought after.
Do we really need another Eidolon debacle?
I do find it interesting that Paizo has said "While this won't be legal for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, this system will allow players and GMs to add new and innovative races to their game, as well as to add some of the more monstrous options to the party roster."
If they won't allow it in PFS, they obviously know it isn't purely balanced. As others have said, though, when has a system ever been 100% balanced. I, personally, haven't seen a system yet that is 100% balanced. That being said, if there aren't serious improvements in the balance of this little gem, I definitely won't be allowing it at the table.
I think the main reason for not allowing it in PFS play is that they don't want to see groups composed entirely of fine-tuned custom-race PCs. Suddenly, there are thousands upon thousands of new races in Golarion, each with a single member. And most of them have names out of whatever anime is popular at the moment or something.
God forbid I or anyone else want a product that doesn't have to be arbitrated.
I'm sorry, but what you are asking for there is literally an impossible standard. Everything needs arbitrated. Everything. I don't like this pizza place so I go across town because theirs is better. But my neighbor feel the opposite. Why, we both have different tastes.
This one movie reviewer thinks this movie is terrible, but personally I feel it is great. Tastes differ.
At the end of the day, X person feels something is balanced while Y person feels differently. And it all comes down to tastes. Making something that is ideal for everyone is impossible.
No one can agree what is the perfect pizza topping combination. So no one is going to agree on what is balanced 100% of the time.
You feel that this kind of race design is unbalanced. I think this thread has plenty of people that disagree with you. At the end of the day, it is a matter of personal taste.
I'm out of this thread.
God forbid I or anyone else want a product that doesn't have to be arbitrated.I'm sorry, but what you are asking for there is literally an impossible standard. Everything needs arbitrated. Everything.
No, it doesn't.
Roll a d20. A 10 or greater hits. A 9 or lower misses. Please explain what of that needs to be arbitrated. Needs.
If anything, I think this is going to help GMs make better custom races. Sure there will be players that bed and plead for their ultimate race that is better at one particular class and useless at all other classes. Nothing is ever going to stop that. However, these rules will allow a GM to make their own homebrew world better by making balanced custom races.
IMHO, that benefit is better than the detriment of certain player doing more of what they already do.
Dale i do think that is the intent. I also think that paizo is slowly testing out much more modular system constuction systems for a future edition.
Eidolons become a long term playtest for modular monster construction
Race creation becomes another avenue for monster(ous humanoid) construction and as you so eloquently put world setting building.
I would not be surprised to see a playtest of class construction come down the pipe at some point. I mean someone did just that for 3.0 many moons ago.
Although from a modular/point buy orientation to the system to make everything come out of the same pool would be better in the long run:
base attributes, class features, racial features, BAB, HD, saves, spell lists and progressions (although I would go away or provide an option for a non-vancian system), etc.
This way you could actually make the game level-less(grant development points rather than XP). You could truly make "mooks", monsters with enough attack modifier to hit the party without doing massive damage due to stat inflation and have 1-2 HD. OR still use levels and just buy the progression scheme for the class at start. Leave the "Core" classes/ races as quick start examples/ trainers.
Nothing says the player can make the classes the GM may well be like here are the classes races available in this game. Or he may allow for more sandbox style game.
Unlike some I would prefer a CLEAR and VIABLE version of this playtest system to flourish. That way more individual tables might have more empowerment to decide what is TOO MUCH for them (I know some like Dale have taken those reins already at the table but some don't as they feel or are pressured by thier local gaming community if its been published by Paizo/ 3PP X it has to be allowed). I do also realize that actually such a methodology to the game would probably drastically change how these forums work there would be the clarification of the interactions of X feat and Y racial option. But in a real way that the polar positions taken on this forum already demonstrate each table and each GM would be playing its own game: some more simulationist, some more story-game, some more skill focused (increase the costs of BAB and spells/magic to "encourage" skill usage because its cheaper, as one method)
Because no one understands that is not a valid rebuttal to "something is inherently wrong with the game design."
Well, speaking only about the Advanced Races game design, just as a reminder :
Right now the system in is playtest.
Their playtests rarely change much from test to print. They usually through in some bad balancing and call it a day.
My problem is that this premise is looking a lot like the Eidolon. And that didn't go well at all. The release was not only just as broken as the playtest, it managed to confuse the hell out of everyone with all the unique rules and arbitrary constraints they made up to try and balance it which did nothing to actually address the problems.The first clue of what is wrong with this is they are CLEARLY balancing it based on existing races and using that as a rule of thumb to reverse engineer the race creation system out of them. The problem is, races aren't balanced for spit. Unless they COMPLETELY overhaul this - which they won't - the whole thing is going to be another Eidolon.
You want some fix suggestions?
1) Include fractional RP worths (I can NOT be the only person who looked at the 0-lvl spell 1/day SLA ability costing 1 RP each and went "What.")
2.a) Stop reverse engineering from existing races
2.b) Keep the reverse engineering but stop using a concrete system to judge correct power level by.
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God forbid I or anyone else want a product that doesn't have to be arbitrated.I'm sorry, but what you are asking for there is literally an impossible standard. Everything needs arbitrated. Everything. I don't like this pizza place so I go across town because theirs is better. But my neighbor feel the opposite. Why, we both have different tastes.
This one movie reviewer thinks this movie is terrible, but personally I feel it is great. Tastes differ.
At the end of the day, X person feels something is balanced while Y person feels differently. And it all comes down to tastes. Making something that is ideal for everyone is impossible.
No one can agree what is the perfect pizza topping combination. So no one is going to agree on what is balanced 100% of the time.
You feel that this kind of race design is unbalanced. I think this thread has plenty of people that disagree with you. At the end of the day, it is a matter of personal taste.
I'm out of this thread.
+1
This is absolutely correct. If the GM allowed everything (Core Rulebook, APG, UM, UC, and eventually ARG) without arbitration, it would be a complete mess.
If Cartigan's goal is balance, he should play a different game like 4th edition.
You say "tomato," I say "roll initiative."
