Long ago, a group of elven wizards grew impatient with the directionless and lack of conviction they saw in elven society. They withdrew to their own secret halls and homes, and gradually, became a new race, one steeped in powerful magic, almost to the point of addiction. Although they called themselves Elves of the True Blood, they became known to others, those that had heard of them, as the Arcane Elves.
Ability Modifiers: +4 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Str (-1 RP)
Languages: Xenophobic (0 RO)
Elven Magic (2 RP)
Sprinter (1 RP)
Low-light vision (1 RP)
Pyromaniac (2 RP)
Stonesinger (1 RP)
Dreamspeaker (2 RP)
Magical Linguist (2 RP)
Is this thread to show how the system can be used to make a minmaxed race specialised in excelling at a single class above all others?
I think that's fairly well known already. Some amount of GM and player rationality and reasonability is expected when reviewing a race for use in their game, even if the points add up nicely. In some cases, a higher cost race may be okay because their abilities do not synergise or force them into a single role better than any other race. In others, it may be justifiable for a race to add up to less than ten because its abilities stack in powerful ways.
I think it's supposed to go in this thread.
Is this thread to show how the system can be used to make a minmaxed race specialised in excelling at a single class above all others?
I think that's fairly well known already. Some amount of GM and player rationality and reasonability is expected when reviewing a race for use in their game, even if the points add up nicely. In some cases, a higher cost race may be okay because their abilities do not synergise or force them into a single role better than any other race. In others, it may be justifiable for a race to add up to less than ten because its abilities stack in powerful ways.
this is a point that everyone with a hint of common sense should realize without requiring proof. when you allow customization. it's quite common to pick the more synergistic combinations. it just makes me wish we had more hardass DM's like Weekly William that were willing to target and exploit the weaknesses.
you think that a 5 strength and 5 charisma aren't going to hinder you because you have a 22 intellegence off the bat and all sorts of wizard bonuses. expect your reclusive arcanist to have at least some unwanted spotlight. maybe being forced to make a key diplomacy check or few could make you think differently.
this is a point that everyone with a hint of common sense should realize without requiring proof. when you allow customization. it's quite common to pick the more synergistic combinations. it just makes me wish we had more hardass DM's like Weekly William that were willing to target and exploit the weaknesses.
So, if you built a character from scratch with Int 16, and made them this race, they would have Int 20, and would be able to cast Sleep with a DC of 17 (before Spell Focus). They can also cast burning hands foe 2d4 damage at first level. Yeah, that's some "synergy," all right.
you think that a 5 strength and 5 charisma aren't going to hinder you because you have a 22 intellegence off the bat and all sorts of wizard bonuses. expect your reclusive arcanist to have at least some unwanted spotlight. maybe being forced to make a key diplomacy check or few could make you think differently.
Actually, his Charisma is 8, and with his cross-class ranks in Diplomacy, because he can max out seven skills at a time, his Diplomacy is huge. Assuming he doesn't just cast charm person or dominate, of course. His 6 Strength is pretty low, but... who cares?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Actually, his Charisma is 8, and with his cross-class ranks in Diplomacy, because he can max out seven skills at a time, his Diplomacy is huge. Assuming he doesn't just cast charm person or dominate, of course. His 6 Strength is pretty low, but... who cares?
He does, the first time the party encounters shadows.
If he gets "ambushed" by shadows, I don't think Strength 8 is going to save him.
Obviously the solution is to redo your homebrew wizard race with Strength bonuses.
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I think that's fairly well known already. Some amount of GM and player rationality and reasonability is expected when reviewing a race for use in their game, even if the points add up nicely.
Honest question: then why have points? If the strategy is "let's be reasonable and fair about this" (and that's not a bad strategy!), then why do you have points at all? Why not simply have a menu of uncosted attributes to pick from?
Points imply those points mean something.
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Hmm, am I the only one who considered the current elves the "arcane" ones, and wanted a more "forest" oriented race that didn't bruise in stiff wind or freeze in terror when seeing a mosquito?
Seriously, elves nowadays...
Honest question: then why have points?
To make a system that is quick and easy to use. Yes you can easily make an underpowered or overpowered race, but this system also makes it a piece of cake to use these points to build a quality race, even if you must tack on a bit of good judgment to make it work.
You have points for the *DM* to facilitate relatively quick and easy adjustment to make new player races.
You do Not have points for the *player* to try and figure out how uber he can be, this time.
And Paizo assumes the DM's have the backbone to prevent players from making their own, speciality, class specific munchkin races.
-S
You will, the first time you get ambushed by shadows.
No, his spells will help with that. If the party gets ambushed by shadows, frankly the first people going down will be the melee guys. Even if STR drain (a terrible, cumbersome mechanic you should hate yourself for recommending or having used) was a weakness for Arcane Elf Wizards, it would be one highly situational, very minor weakness (6 STR vs 8 STR, big difference, huh?), in exchange for a bonus to the standard things the character will do session in, session out.
Trying to pretend that giving +4 INT/-2 X Y Z to wizards is balanced because you can ambush them with shadows reveals not only a willful ignorance of game mechanics and how games are run, but deep-seated personal flaws that would lead to insanity, murder, or a dramatic suicide if this were a tragic play rather than an internet forum.
What I'm trying to say is that your post is bad and you should feel bad for having posted it.
You have points for the *DM* to facilitate relatively quick and easy adjustment to make new player races.
You do Not have points for the *player* to try and figure out how uber he can be, this time.
And Paizo assumes the DM's have the backbone to prevent players from making their own, speciality, class specific munchkin races.
-S
So why not provide the DM with accurate point values? Why give +2/+2/-2 a lower point cost than +4/-2/-2/-2, when the latter is flat-out better for every character type that relies on 1 stat above all (like, say, wizards, or some rogues, or etc)?
Why not have a much looser system (e.g. "to create a standard race, pick two abilities from this Minor list, one from this Moderate list, and then one from this Major list or two more from this Moderate list, plus either this or this stat adjustment pattern. Careful, this isn't balanced)?
When you create a GURPS-like point buy system and assign things point values, you're saying, as a designer, "X is more valuable than Y". If, for example, a skill bonus is worth 2 points, and so is, e.g., spell resistance, what you're saying is that you, as a designer, think these things are equally valuable to a character.
If that's not what you mean to do, then you shouldn't do it.
In many ways, a system with what are essentially arbitrary point costs is worse than a system with no point costs at all.
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Everyone picking system apart, no one noting that this race has 4 magical abilities?
Still, only having 3 doesn't change much.
I think we need something more like wealth by level for characters over 1st. Only so many RP per category, so we don't have races tanking 7 points into one category. For now I'd say Maximum abilities == Maximum points.
So uh, even if it was a solution, just how often do you have shadows attack the party?
Last time my party encountered shadows, they ran for the hills and did not want to go back into that dungeon.
Okay, so maybe there was a skeletal girallon with blades bolted to its arms and armour fused to its bones scraping its way slowly through the catacombs, with echoing audibility.
They were more afraid of being slowed by the loss of strength than being killed by the shadows.
Ah, good times.
Everyone picking system apart, no one noting that this race has 4 magical abilities?
Still, only having 3 doesn't change much.
I think we need something more like wealth by level for characters over 1st. Only so many RP per category, so we don't have races tanking 7 points into one category. For now I'd say Maximum abilities == Maximum points.
I realized that a while ago and was hoping no one would notice. :)
Uh, swap Stonesinger for Stubborn.
i noticed that this race seems singleminded focused on optimizing forum wizards. Shadows need not be the only way to frighten these guys.
enforcing encumbrance for the entire table works as well. as well as enforcing the amount of weight in each handy haversack.
i noticed that this race seems singleminded focused on optimizing forum wizards. Shadows need not be the only way to frighten these guys.
enforcing encumbrance for the entire table works as well. as well as enforcing the amount of weight in each handy haversack.
I once played a game in which one player had a Sorcerer with 5 Str. I strictly enforced encumbrance. It wasn't really an issue. Strength damage is pretty much the one issue, although it doesn't come up all that often. In thinking about a battle gainst shadows, my thoughts turn immediately to how much of an advantage this character has over others, including the ability to cast more magic missiles, and to devote more skill ranks to Tumble.
As for this class's single-minded focus, they are really just an homage to World of Warcraft. Really, in the end, it's about roleplaying, right?
but even the blood elves were more diverse than just a single-minded focus. they may have frequently become spellcasters, but the Blood Knights (Paladins) and the Farstriders (Rangers) also played a key role in thier society. not just the magisters. and with the penalties they have, a viable Blood Knight or Farstrider is impossible.
but even the blood elves were more diverse than just a single-minded focus. they may have frequently become spellcasters, but the Blood Knights (Paladins) and the Farstriders (Rangers) also played a key role in thier society. not just the magisters. and with the penalties they have, a viable Blood Knight or Farstrider is impossible.
Eldritch Knight and Magus are still wide open, and there is no reason you couldn't play an Arcane Elf cleric if you wanted to.
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So uh, even if it was a solution, just how often do you have shadows attack the party?
Until they're DEAD DEAD!!
More seriously, I raised shadows as the "I can dump this stat way down to make an ubercheese character" counter. For every "I am SUPREME at my mad dumping skills!" the book has a mechanical counter.
If I'm GMing, and (in a moment of gross stupidity) allow this race, and the player doesn't want to give up his gouda elf or change him to a regular elf once my brain injury heals, then yes, I'll 'correct' my mistake with more traditional methods.
To me, gaming is a group enjoyment. The hard part for the GM is he has to work to balance everyone's fun, including his own.
Being attacked by shadows is a counter to essentially any wizard, not just one with a -2 Str penalty. You are also essentially saying that no one should ever play a gnome or halfling wizard, because shadows.
I'd totally include this race in my setting.... Then I'd tell all the players that wanted to play it, they are unwilling to leave their "area" pick a race that would actually want to be a adventurer. Unless we are playing a game with only this race as an option, then let the non-magical role-play commence.
You would tell your players what they want to do? What does that mean?
You would tell your players what they want to do? What does that mean?
if i were you, i would drop a few of the synergistic racials. the int bonus and elven magic are fine. +4 isn't as bad as +8. i would probably move the strength penalty over to constitution instead. i imagine them as geeks, and it's not that geeks can't carry thier load, it's that they generally live unhealthy lifestyles, eating junk food, not getting enough excersize, not maintaining thier enviroment, and overall lazyness. which hints at a constitution penalty. the charisma penalty is fine. and elves have a history of frailty. i would swap some of those caster boosting racials for more elfy powers.
You would tell your players what they want to do? What does that mean?if i were you, i would drop a few of the synergistic racials. the int bonus and elven magic are fine. +4 isn't as bad as +8. i would probably move the strength penalty over to constitution instead. i imagine them as geeks, and it's not that geeks can't carry thier load, it's that they generally live unhealthy lifestyles, eating junk food, not getting enough excersize, not maintaining thier enviroment, and overall lazyness. which hints at a constitution penalty. the charisma penalty is fine. and elves have a history of frailty. i would swap some of those caster boosting racials for more elfy powers.
Fat junk food elves eating Cheetohs?
Fat junk food elves eating Cheetohs?You would tell your players what they want to do? What does that mean?if i were you, i would drop a few of the synergistic racials. the int bonus and elven magic are fine. +4 isn't as bad as +8. i would probably move the strength penalty over to constitution instead. i imagine them as geeks, and it's not that geeks can't carry thier load, it's that they generally live unhealthy lifestyles, eating junk food, not getting enough excersize, not maintaining thier enviroment, and overall lazyness. which hints at a constitution penalty. the charisma penalty is fine. and elves have a history of frailty. i would swap some of those caster boosting racials for more elfy powers.
i was thinking more the scrawny malnourished variety that live on a diet of Top Ramen, Chef Boyardee, and Energy drinks. the kind that play a lot of Xbox.