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As with the pre-gen/replay discussion, only one or two Venture-Captains or Paizo staff will pop in if there needs to be any clarification. I want to make sure to get feedback from the fanbase without undue influence.
4) You can start with a fully trained animal companion. If you replace that animal companion for any reason, then the following applies.
Between scenarios, you may attempt to train as many tricks as you have ranks in the Handle Animal skill. A failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts. You may Take 10 on each attempt.
Alternatively, you can train for a single purpose per scenario as long as you have the requisite ranks in Handle Animal to train each individual trick learned as part of the purpose in the same time.
I would much, much prefer this rule to the existing rule, thank you!!
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4) You can start with a fully trained animal companion. If you replace that animal companion for any reason, then the following applies.
Clarification please: Do you mean "when you first gain access to an animal companion." or "Each time you acquire a new animal companion, such as by animal companion death, or choosing a new animal companion."
-Swiftbrook
Director of Brand Strategy
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Clarification please: Do you mean "when you first gain access to an animal companion." or "Each time you acquire a new animal companion, such as by animal companion death, or choosing a new animal companion."
When you first gain an animal companion. Not each time you get a new animal companion.
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Clarification please: Do you mean "when you first gain access to an animal companion." or "Each time you acquire a new animal companion, such as by animal companion death, or choosing a new animal companion."When you first gain an animal companion. Not each time you get a new animal companion.
This level 10 and 2/3 ranger who has lost 8 animal companions (6 of them one-shotted by failing saves in the surprise round) likes this much better than the current ruling
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4) You can start with a fully trained animal companion when you first gain an animal companion. If you replace that animal companion for any reason, then the following applies.
Between scenarios, you may attempt to train as many tricks as you have ranks in the Handle Animal skill. A failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts. You may Take 10 on each attempt.
Alternatively, you can train for a single purpose per scenario as long as you have the requisite ranks in Handle Animal to train each individual trick learned as part of the purpose in the same time.
+1, as clarified by Mark's post.
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I approve of this ruling.
It sounds very similar to what I and several others have proposed in other threads, and feels fair, but also gives some drawback to the whole "meat shield" problem.
Additionally, by the time you get high level, and have a fairly good Handle Animal check (supposedly?) and you want to switch companions out repeatedly based on the environments of your scenario, training for a purpose basically will give that companion 6 tricks in one session.
So I like this ruling.
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As with the pre-gen/replay discussion, only one or two Venture-Captains or Paizo staff will pop in if there needs to be any clarification. I want to make sure to get feedback from the fanbase without undue influence.
4) You can start with a fully trained animal companion. If you replace that animal companion for any reason, then the following applies.
Between scenarios, you may attempt to train as many tricks as you have ranks in the Handle Animal skill. A failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts. You may Take 10 on each attempt.
Alternatively, you can train for a single purpose per scenario as long as you have the requisite ranks in Handle Animal to train each individual trick learned as part of the purpose in the same time.
So, the thinking is that the low level PC has a fully trained animal companion, but the higher level character (likely with more ranks in Handle Animal, and undoubtedly more experienced in actually having an AC) needs to spend multiple scenarios? And this is not predicated on the notion that the AC is gained at 1st level.
The continued need to restrict the training of replacement animal companions confuses me to no end.
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So, the thinking is that the low level PC has a fully trained animal companion, but the higher level character (likely with more ranks in Handle Animal, and undoubtedly more experienced in actually having an AC) needs to spend multiple scenarios? And this is not predicated on the notion that the AC is gained at 1st level.
The continued need to restrict the training of replacement animal companions confuses me to no end.
If the character puts ranks into Handle Animal, then by 6th level they can train 6 tricks per scenario. By 8th level, they can train 8, which is one shy (maybe 4 if they added Int to the animal companion at 4 HD at 4th level) of the animal's max, and should easily get them into combat shape. And with a +4, class skill, 12 Cha, and 6 ranks, that's a +14 to the Handle Animal check. Taking 10 gets you a 24, which is automatic success on any of the single trick or general purpose training. So essentially, at 2nd level you will automatically make any handle animal training check.
The higher level you are, the more tricks per scenario you can train.
The reason this rule is put into place, is to hinder the "meat shield" thing, which is a game/scenario breaking strategy.
This rule, though, does not overly hinder the master who wants to swap animal companions because of environmental reasons.
Additionally, it makes sense that a character who wants to put their AC front and center as a character theme or choice, would have several ranks in Handle Animal.
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If the character puts ranks into Handle Animal, then by 6th level they can train 6 tricks per scenario. By 8th level, they can train 8, which is one shy (maybe 4 if they added Int to the animal companion at 4 HD at 4th level) of the animal's max, and should easily get them into combat shape. And with a +4, class skill, 12 Cha, and 6 ranks, that's a +14 to the Handle Animal check. Taking 10 gets you a 24, which is automatic success on any of the single trick or general purpose training. So essentially, at 2nd level you will automatically make any handle animal training check.
OK, now I'm slightly confused. I've assumed that bonus trick are still bonus tricks and don't need to be trained. Six would be the maximum number of tricks needed to be trained unless they raised the animals intelligence.
Oh, and I like the rule. A solid hit.
-Swiftbrook
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As with the pre-gen/replay discussion, only one or two Venture-Captains or Paizo staff will pop in if there needs to be any clarification. I want to make sure to get feedback from the fanbase without undue influence.
4) You can start with a fully trained animal companion. If you replace that animal companion for any reason, then the following applies.
Between scenarios, you may attempt to train as many tricks as you have ranks in the Handle Animal skill. A failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts. You may Take 10 on each attempt.
Alternatively, you can train for a single purpose per scenario as long as you have the requisite ranks in Handle Animal to train each individual trick learned as part of the purpose in the same time.
I support this.
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If the character puts ranks into Handle Animal, then by 6th level they can train 6 tricks per scenario. By 8th level, they can train 8, which is one shy (maybe 4 if they added Int to the animal companion at 4 HD at 4th level) of the animal's max, and should easily get them into combat shape. And with a +4, class skill, 12 Cha, and 6 ranks, that's a +14 to the Handle Animal check. Taking 10 gets you a 24, which is automatic success on any of the single trick or general purpose training. So essentially, at 2nd level you will automatically make any handle animal training check.OK, now I'm slightly confused. I've assumed that bonus trick are still bonus tricks and don't need to be trained. Six would be the maximum number of tricks needed to be trained unless they raised the animals intelligence.
Oh, and I like the rule. A solid hit.
-Swiftbrook
If I am reading the animal companion rule correctly from the PFRPG RAW, then you still have to train the bonus trick, you just get access to a new trick to be trained.
The new rule that Michael Brock proposed above does not include the old PFS rule that an Animal companion starts with the bonus tricks.
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If I am reading the animal companion rule correctly from the PFRPG RAW, then you still have to train the bonus trick, you just get access to a new trick to be trained.Sorry, you're not.
These bonus tricks don't require any training time or Handle Animal checks, ...
Ah, in that case then this makes my point stronger. Thanks for the correction.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If a druid PC is advancing with Slow Experience, can she still make as many attempts as she has ranks in Handle Animal, or half?
If a PC buys a headband of vast intelligence with the Handle Animal skill, does she train animals before or after that purchase? (After, I presume?) I ask because some players might not be quick-witted enough to purchase the headband before leaving the table during the session where the animal companion dies, and might need to do so on the next chronicle sheet, perhaps before, or perhaps after the Venture Captain briefing.)
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I find it odd to agree with all of these proposed rulings, but well, might as well go 4 for 4: Instituting this rule makes me actually consider playing a Druid/Ranger/X Class With Animal Companion; the idea of training the Companion one scenario at a time was enough to keep me away, be it from the start or in replacing a companion.
Huh...where did all of the defenders of the old rule disappear to?
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From a completely selfish point of view this will not be adequate unless some re-specing is allowed. Here's a completely me centric point of view, if you still think I'm ruining PFS by min-maxing you should probably just skip it.
Story Time & Previous Problem with Animal Companions:
Last time this came up I got a lot of abuse saying that I deserved to have my character rendered unplayable since I'm an evil min-maxer who's ruining the universe. Due to the unhelpful nature of the staff at the time and the multitude of condescending posts from other members I almost quit PFS.
I managed to stick around but I haven't played my druid since. In my opinion the one problem that really needs to be addressed and has needed addressing since we started mucking with animal companions is acknowledging that we're changing the rules and allow appropriate re-specing.
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4) You can start with a fully trained animal companion. If you replace that animal companion for any reason, then the following applies.
Between scenarios, you may attempt to train as many tricks as you have ranks in the Handle Animal skill. A failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts. You may Take 10 on each attempt.
Alternatively, you can train for a single purpose per scenario as long as you have the requisite ranks in Handle Animal to train each individual trick learned as part of the purpose in the same time.
Make it so.
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Huh...where did all of the defenders of the old rule disappear to?
We didn't disappear. We recognized a need for "a" rule, and defended the "old" rule because it was "the" rule.
But "this" proposed rule is better than the "old" rule. It still does the things that I feel are necessary, the same reasons for why I defended the old rule. But it is not overly prohibitive like the old rule seemed to be.
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From a completely selfish point of view this will not be adequate unless some re-specing is allowed. Here's a completely me centric point of view, if you still think I'm ruining PFS by min-maxing you should probably just skip it.
Story Time & Previous Problem with Animal Companions:
** spoiler omitted **
I feel for you. While I disagree that it was a change to a rule, but rather a clarification of a rule already in place, I do understand that when these types of "changes" happen, sometimes some players can be drastically affected.
If you have a decent INT, you should be able to get several ranks of Handle Animal once you level up, since this seems to be the main thing holding you back from using the above rule effectively.
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If you have a decent INT, you should be able to get several ranks of Handle Animal once you level up,
I don't have a decent int on this character, but could still get 3 ranks of handle animal, but I need 3xp to level. What do I do for those 3 adventures? I don't want to apply GM credit, I already applied 7 GM credits to this character to help get him to level 4 where his animal companion previously became useful.
While I appreciate Mortika's offer to run a module for me I want to play him at the level he is with a useful animal companion. I want to play levels 7-11 organically with him because I think that will be the most fun.
In my heart I've already given up on him, I've leveled a new character to 7: Farak, the Most Powerful Mage in all of Absalom (don't be fooled by that imposter Thorne) and am enjoying him quite a bit.
I probably shouldn't have even brought the issue up again but the subject still makes my blood boil a bit.
If you have a decent INT, you should be able to get several ranks of Handle Animal once you level up,I don't have a decent int on this character, but could still get 3 ranks of handle animal, but I need 3xp to level. What do I do for those 3 adventures?
You're a level 7 druid, so you get to automatically start with 3 free bonus tricks that don't require Handle Animal (in Attack x2 and Heel, say). In addition, you can easily spare a 1st level spell slot for Speak with Animals for anything those three tricks don't cover.
It's a setback, but not a huge setback, IMO.
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My druid has a cha of 7 and 0 ranks in handle animal. Even with the 3 bonus tricks I still can't reliably get my animal companion to do anything with a total bonus of +2. I can't train my animal new tricks until playing 3 more times. Speak with animals doesn't even enter the equation as my animal has an int of 3 and put a rank in linguistics to learn common.
After 3 sessions with an unreliable companion I could put all 4 of my skill points (including favored class) into handle animal and bring my bonus up to +9 which would make the animal reliable for few tricks it knew(until it took damage). Then i could start training it.
Is there something I'm missing? Eventually I stopped reading the thread on animal companions.
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My druid has a cha of 7 and 0 ranks in handle animal. Even with the 3 bonus tricks I still can't reliably get my animal companion to do anything with a total bonus of +2. I can't train my animal new tricks until playing 3 more times. Speak with animals doesn't even enter the equation as my animal has an int of 3 and put a rank in linguistics to learn common.
After 3 sessions with an unreliable companion I could put all 4 of my skill points (including favored class) into handle animal and bring my bonus up to +9 which would make the animal reliable for few tricks it knew(until it took damage). Then i could start training it.
Is there something I'm missing? Eventually I stopped reading the thread on animal companions.
I understand your frustration Pirate Rob. I have a tendency to de-optimize my characters in certain areas to optimize in others. And when the rules work (or at the very least are interpreted incorrectly by the powers that be) in a certain way that allows you to de-optimize a certain stat without actually taking much of the negative impact of it, it can really rise ire to suddenly find out your character is very difficult to play due to the clarification.
I definitely feel empathy for you. But I do have a question for you.
Did you ever think during character creation, that it was maybe a little too good to be true that you were essentially getting something for nothing?
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My druid has a cha of 7 and 0 ranks in handle animal. Even with the 3 bonus tricks I still can't reliably get my animal companion to do anything with a total bonus of +2. I can't train my animal new tricks until playing 3 more times. Speak with animals doesn't even enter the equation as my animal has an int of 3 and put a rank in linguistics to learn common.
After 3 sessions with an unreliable companion I could put all 4 of my skill points (including favored class) into handle animal and bring my bonus up to +9 which would make the animal reliable for few tricks it knew(until it took damage). Then i could start training it.
Is there something I'm missing? Eventually I stopped reading the thread on animal companions.
By the sound of it and the RAW, you should be having a hard time getting your animal companion to do anything. Your animal companion might know 6 tricks but it still requires you to command it to perform the trick, which is a Handle Animal check. Druids and Rangers get this check as a free action (for a move action if you are "pushing" your AC to perform a trick it doesn't know), but it still requires a check. It's a DC 10, but with no ranks, a -2 for CHA and a +4 bonus for being a druid, you still will miss your check 35% of the time. Either way, your druid needs ranks in handle animal.
-Swiftbrook
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My druid has a cha of 7 and 0 ranks in handle animal. Even with the 3 bonus tricks I still can't reliably get my animal companion to do anything with a total bonus of +2. I can't train my animal new tricks until playing 3 more times. Speak with animals doesn't even enter the equation as my animal has an int of 3 and put a rank in linguistics to learn common.
After 3 sessions with an unreliable companion I could put all 4 of my skill points (including favored class) into handle animal and bring my bonus up to +9 which would make the animal reliable for few tricks it knew(until it took damage). Then i could start training it.
Is there something I'm missing? Eventually I stopped reading the thread on animal companions.
By the sound of it and the RAW, you should be having a hard time getting your animal companion to do anything. Your animal companion might know 6 tricks but it still requires you to command it to perform the trick, which is a Handle Animal check. Druids and Rangers get this check as a free action (for a move action if you are "pushing" your AC to perform a trick it doesn't know), but it still requires a check. It's a DC 10, but with no ranks, a -2 for CHA and a +4 bonus for being a druid, you still will miss your check 35% of the time. Either way, your druid needs ranks in handle animal.
-Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook,
This animal companion conundrum was created prior to the big clarification this spring, in that just because you increase your animal’s intelligence to 3 at level 4, does not mean that the animal suddenly doesn’t need Handle Animal.
So the thing to do was to create a druid by chincing on CHA and Handle Animal, wait to level 4 to really do anything with your animal companion, and then your animal is suddenly intelligent enough to not need to know tricks or need handle animal.
Then the big clarification happened this last spring, and this wasn’t the case anymore.