I think another reason for this is that the older something is, the less is known about it. The example of Troy mentioned earlier is a good example.
And the less is known about something, the more mysterious it gets. And the more exciting. And the more stories will be told about it based on legends, myths and half-truths.When an artifact is made last Tuesday, you could almost (real-world analogy) just read the user guide and use it. But the user guide, in fantasy terms probably a vague and cryptic tome, gets lost first. And if it still exists, no one can read it anymore if it is older, since it is written in an ancient, cryptic language. And if someone can read the language, he or she probably could only understand half of the text, since it belongs to an ancient culture of which practically nothing is known anymore except myths and legends.
So I think it is basically a storytelling device to make things more mysterious and exciting.
Just imagine that in about 5,000 years from now someone will find an iPad during an archaeological dig. Would he know what it is for? And what to do with it? That would be awesome!
I somehow doubt the battery would work on the ipad after 5,000 years. Also there are things that people could make mistakes in translating the user manual of the tome if they tried.
In terms of the span of societies, I agree that our modern earth perspective has us a bit skewed. Before modern communication and information sharing concepts (and weapons) empires/nations lasted much, much longer. In addition to that, there are several stabalizing effects on societies.
1. Single individuals can be stupid powerful. If a King/Leader has a 15th level wizard in his pocket or IS a 15th level wizard, he isn't just the figurehead protecter, he can literally fend off the invading hordes himself. High livel non casters can literally cut down hundreds of enemies barely risking a scratch themselves. This has a tremendous stabalizing effect on a monarchy/feudal system. Slowing 'societal change.
2. Intelligent creatures can live a long friggan time. If you have an elven king and he is a good king, you arent having a shift in government for a long time. Again this has a stabalizing effect on the world. Revolution, or even changes in society are limited because the leadership (assuming copetance) can stick around a long long time. Imagine Rome under 700 years of Ceasar? Or Greece under 600 years of alexander (assuming neither was assasinated because they had high level body guards protecting them, of simply had clerics around to bring them back from the dead when they were assasinated).
3. There is an afterlife, there are gods, they have opinions. There are literally walking miracles out and about in the community called clerics. Martin Luther doesnt need to challenge the church, he can literally just ask his god whats up with x, y and z. The gods take an active role in the earth and have living, powerful representatives that are literaly divinely inspired and imbued with superpowers. If you dont think that will stabalize a society imagine if Christ was on earth right now, still healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and giving sermens at various churches around the world. Think very carefully about some of the major societal upheavals that have happened in earths history. Do you think active divine interferance could have prevented or slowed most of those? I do.
4. Magic as presented in Pathfinder/Dnd is easy. Not easy to learn, but once you have it, its cake. This will cause a serious shift on intellectual curiousity. Active and prevalent magic will stagnate technology for sure. Look at Jim Butcher's Alera Codex series for examples. Here is a society where much of the population can do magic. They come to rely on it, and those that are good at it become the aristocracy, passing on the power from generation to generation. Interest in technology doesn't just wain, it turns to disbalief that physics and engineering can accomplish much in the first place. Slower technological changes means slower societal changes as well.
So overall I dont think fantasy timelines are absurd, it is just an extrapolation of a certain line of thinking in line with what we think might happen if certain fantasy elements are in play.
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The other thing that you have to look at, as far as civilizations and the like, is the tendency for things to rise and fall, and for technological advances to be lost in the shuffle.
[...]
Ultimately, knowledge and technology have never moved in a continuously building cascade, within human experience. Technologies are developed, dismissed, perfected, forgotten, rediscovered, reshaped, discarded, and reclaimed repeatedly. Batteries? Close to three thousand years old. The steam engine? The principles and workable diagrams are explored in texts that are more than two thousand years old.*
... except ...
You see those "really long lived races", would also tend to resist the loss of large amounts of knowledge.
Consider an Elven craftsman for example. He or she would likely remember how to perform her craft for hundreds of years.
Also, as someone pointed out, practicing the same caft for hundreds of years would tend to either result in ...
... a very dull, unimaginative people.
... a HIGHLY technologically advanced people. And, yet this does not really happen.
When I was still running a game world with Elves and Dwarves and other Ridiculously Long Lived Fantasy Races (tm), one of the things that I made sure to point out was that the longer-lived the race was, the more "soulless" and "without spark" their craftsworks became. So an Elven Woodworker might produce incredibly beautiful, intricate pieces - but they had no life. They were like the mass produced flat-pack furniture of the fantasy world. Dwarven stonework would last centuries and never lose its smooth finish, but it lacked warmth and was always as cold as the deepest cave.
It took short-lived races, Humans and Orcs and Goblins, to really breathe life into crafts and construction and effort. After a while, all those seemingly immortal races just went through the motions of their work, without ever really feeling it again.
Interesting idea.
I somehow doubt the battery would work on the ipad after 5,000 years.
Yeah, and since apple goes all proprietary with their, well, everything, and doesn't have changeable batteries in their stuff, that would be that. No power to that thing.
I don't know anything from Wolfe or Cook, but I like the Song well enough.
So I guess I'll give the series a try as soon as I'm done with Vlad and Khaavren.
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I particularly hate when characters give a f~%! about political events that happened 1,000 years ago and recite (mostly) accurate accounts of those events.
I see this as a player who's character is involved in the setting (beyond just what's happening within the setting "right here, right now") and cares about the setting's little details as much as I do...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I particularly hate when characters give a f~%! about political events that happened 1,000 years ago and recite (mostly) accurate accounts of those events.I see this as a player who's character is involved in the setting (beyond just what's happening within the setting "right here, right now") and cares about the setting's little details as much as I do...
I meant characters in fiction. If you're playing an rpg which uses the 1,000 year + timeline about which people in the setting care, it's terrific having a player who is as involved in that as the DM.
It doesn't make a 1,000+ year timeline any less annoying in and of itself, but that's neither here nor there.
I somehow doubt the battery would work on the ipad after 5,000 years. Also there are things that people could make mistakes in translating the user manual of the tome if they tried.That's exactly what I meant. They would have no idea what this thing is, since they cannot get it to work, and they make up all kinds of mysterious theories about it.
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I particularly hate when characters give a f~%! about political events that happened 1,000 years ago and recite (mostly) accurate accounts of those events.I see this as a player who's character is involved in the setting (beyond just what's happening within the setting "right here, right now") and cares about the setting's little details as much as I do...I meant characters in fiction. If you're playing an rpg which uses the 1,000 year + timeline about which people in the setting care, it's terrific having a player who is as involved in that as the DM.
It doesn't make a 1,000+ year timeline any less annoying in and of itself, but that's neither here nor there.
So how do you do a time line then?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So how do you do a time line then?
I meant characters in fiction. If you're playing an rpg which uses the 1,000 year + timeline about which people in the setting care, it's terrific having a player who is as involved in that as the DM.It doesn't make a 1,000+ year timeline any less annoying in and of itself, but that's neither here nor there.
I focus on the 20-50 year period immediately preceding the campaign. To the extent I need ancient ruins, I go back a few hundred years at most.
But, generally speaking, I don't bother with campaign timelines. I put them in the same category as coming up with a 37 member pantheon of gods with an elaborate history and political structure - it's something that only the DM will ever know or care about (unless you have that one player who also likes that stuff, and I don't bank on having that person in my group).
When I build campaigns, I tend to focus on a very small region/area, and build out from there as needed by the stories I'm telling. I really don't like epic games, and avoid running (and playing in) them at all costs.
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I don't know anything from Wolfe or Cook, but I like the Song well enough.
So I guess I'll give the series a try as soon as I'm done with Vlad and Khaavren.
Damn you KaeYoss! Because of your notes about Vlad Taltos series in another thread I went and borrowed Jhereg from library and liked it!
Damn you twice because it is the only part of the series that is available in the city library and now I will have to start asking friends if they have any of the following books or start looking in other libraries...
I curse you to reading Malazan Book Of The Fallen and getting hooked too!
I don't know anything from Wolfe or Cook, but I like the Song well enough.
So I guess I'll give the series a try as soon as I'm done with Vlad and Khaavren.
As I am finishing reading Jhereg I think that you might like Glen Cook's Garret P.I. series. Main character is a serious case of a smartass. And has a friend who is elven assassin. Hilarity ensues.
As I am finishing reading Jhereg I think that you might like Glen Cook's Garret P.I. series. Main character is a serious case of a smartass. And has a friend who is elven assassin. Hilarity ensues.I don't know anything from Wolfe or Cook, but I like the Song well enough.
So I guess I'll give the series a try as soon as I'm done with Vlad and Khaavren.
Hmmm..the Early books were fun the later ones not so much.
I don't know anything from Wolfe or Cook, but I like the Song well enough.
So I guess I'll give the series a try as soon as I'm done with Vlad and Khaavren.
Damn you KaeYoss! Because of your notes about Vlad Taltos series in another thread I went and borrowed Jhereg from library and liked it!
Damn you twice because it is the only part of the series that is available in the city library and now I will have to start asking friends if they have any of the following books or start looking in other libraries...
I curse you to reading Malazan Book Of The Fallen and getting hooked too!
I guess it won't be long now before I order the series off amazon.
Anyway, the last Taltos book I read (which is the next to newest one) even had outtakes! Just like a film! It's rather radical and new.
One of the best was where Vlad was called by the Empress to "Bring a magical artefact to some remote volcano to prevent the Enemy to cover all of Dragaera with war etc etc. Three weeks later they met again. "So, it's done. The walk there was a real bother, luckily, I could teleport on the way back. Evil is vanquished forever now." "Well at least until the sequel." "Naturally".
(Brust's sense of humour is refreshingly silly!)
As I am finishing reading Jhereg I think that you might like Glen Cook's Garret P.I. series. Main character is a serious case of a smartass. And has a friend who is elven assassin. Hilarity ensues.I don't know anything from Wolfe or Cook, but I like the Song well enough.
So I guess I'll give the series a try as soon as I'm done with Vlad and Khaavren.
Reminds me a bit of a certain wizard with a name that is very popular with the wizard crowd... :D
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So how do you do a time line then?
I meant characters in fiction. If you're playing an rpg which uses the 1,000 year + timeline about which people in the setting care, it's terrific having a player who is as involved in that as the DM.It doesn't make a 1,000+ year timeline any less annoying in and of itself, but that's neither here nor there.
I focus on the 20-50 year period immediately preceding the campaign. To the extent I need ancient ruins, I go back a few hundred years at most.
But, generally speaking, I don't bother with campaign timelines. I put them in the same category as coming up with a 37 member pantheon of gods with an elaborate history and political structure - it's something that only the DM will ever know or care about (unless you have that one player who also likes that stuff, and I don't bank on having that person in my group).
When I build campaigns, I tend to focus on a very small region/area, and build out from there as needed by the stories I'm telling. I really don't like epic games, and avoid running (and playing in) them at all costs.
I so agree with most of this. I like having some background though, where there are rumors, and legends of the myths from ages ago. I might have a timeline I write down on it, just so I don't mess up the details, but what does it matter to the PC's that the mud sorcerers were from -1900 years ago specifically or they are from the myths of time.
I have also toyed with the thought that like the ancient celts writing was prohibited and you have to go ask the bards, and they might not tell.
I somehow doubt the battery would work on the ipad after 5,000 years. Also there are things that people could make mistakes in translating the user manual of the tome if they tried.That's exactly what I meant. They would have no idea what this thing is, since they cannot get it to work, and they make up all kinds of mysterious theories about it.
Mmhmm. Now imagine that technology had advanced to the point that nobody used paper at all anymore, and even buildings and monuments, rather than being carved in stone, are electronic - either projections entirely, or at least the text and some of the artwork...animated, with some sort of effects.
And then the civilization collapses, and all the batteries and generators die, and several thousand years in the future, someone finds an obelisk that's perfectly smooth but no longer shows any inscriptions. Because they were projections. And no written language has survived because...it was all electronic (or something similar, where there's no physical alteration to survive). What do they think about the society then? Did it have writing at all? What did it believe? Is it all an elaborate hoax?
And then we have monsters.
Living gods and their profits are one thing, having imps and sprites and walking wolves and DRAGONS, makes life in a fantasy world that much more unstable and prone to catastrophe. If a Red Dragon swoops down and levels the major power center of an empire.... image here Smaug ravishes Rome or Babylon and carts off all the shinny goodies after burning everything that's flammable.
Every time a very short lived races (to them that's Elves) accumulate enough goods together in one place to worth the bother, here comes the Dragon to smash it all back to ruins.
Actually reminds me very much of the plot in Mass Effect with the Reapers. Each time they take galactic civilization back to dust and let life evolve again.
For both Reapers and Dragons, it's kinda like cultivating bees for honey. You let them to do the work of gathering raw materials and processing them into "valuable" things. It all works great until some "hero" comes alone and turns out be an Africanized Killer Bee.
I think it is basically a storytelling device to make things more mysterious and exciting.
Ultimately it comes down to this, or so I think as well.
When an artifact is made last Tuesday, you could almost (real-world analogy) just read the user guide and use it. But the user guide, in fantasy terms probably a vague and cryptic tome, gets lost first. And if it still exists, no one can read it anymore if it is older, since it is written in an ancient, cryptic language.
That's if the knowledge isn't purposely withheld from the non-initiated.
I took us (humankind) hundreds (if not thousands) of generations before we had an open willingness to share knowledge and craftsmanship to a regional level, never mind world-wide level. this obviously stunted progress. Even libraries were coded using cryptic reference systems, which usually meant that knowledge was available to the knowledgeable only.
Transfer that hundreds+ of generations in elf-time or dwarf-years and you easily get to millenniums...
'findel
And then we have monsters.
Living gods and their profits are one thing, having imps and sprites and walking wolves and DRAGONS, makes life in a fantasy world that much more unstable and prone to catastrophe. If a Red Dragon swoops down and levels the major power center of an empire.... image here Smaug ravishes Rome or Babylon and carts off all the shinny goodies after burning everything that's flammable.
Sad thing is that humankind never needed Smaug or monsters to crash its own civilizations and often times, a good amount of accumulated knowledge.
It took us almost 1500 years to rediscover concrete after the fall of Rome.
On the individual level, I like to think that a mortal person is analogous to the artificial intelligence of the Halo universe (which is likely copied from another somebody or somewhere else): the matrix (or brain) being a finite resource, there comes a time where your synapses are saturated and can't learn anything else until you make space for it (by unlearning things). Unlearn the wrong things and you descent into madness. I could see how long-living races developed around anchoring traditions and believes, which conceivably would lead to a certain social stagnation.
'findel
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A few short thoughts...
The pyramids at Giza are thought to be much older than the Greek account of history says. When you look at things like Ages and Aeons, the astrological clock is just now marking the Age of Aquarius, and some scholars say long ago 25,000bc is when a previous cycle, like the one we're beginning began.
As for utility:
I currently run Pathfinder RPG in a homebrew world where the kingdom the PCs are primarily in was only conquered/founded in the king's lifetime.
That said, the world is a mighty big place, and the cosmos is seemingly eternal. If you look at the lifespan ratio of humans to elves for example in classic fantasy, its reasonable that histories of elves and dwarves spann 1000s of years in relative proportion to humans, much like Europe's countries histories span 1000+ years of interesting history comparied to the U.S.A's 250 yr history.
But there are histories and pre-histories beyond modern centuries. Greenwood built all his dungeons on the ruins of the past, just as Jacob's does today, and Gygax before them both did.
The layering of histories adds a richness to the story, even if it is just periphery. But this layering isn't always necessary.
Basically, in fantasy stories, as well as designs by GMs for game modules and our own homebrews... the GM does and must have an answer for everything, even if those answers are shrouded in ancient civilizations or lost histories. It all depends on the setting the GM is running, and how "deep" she chooses to go with the detail and knowledge of the past.
However, at face value, any published work usually has this span of time for the history, and the farther it goes back, the less and less is remembered.
Modern countries cannot account for much of the history of the native inhabitants that lived there before them, and what little history is left has been rewritten to suit the victors. Yet, some histories, and artifacts from the ancients persist on, despite the lack of written records, and continue to amaze and astound us in RL, and therefor make for great fantasy storytelling as anything mysterious and magical, or profound or ancient is quite compelling.
I think of the Pathfinder RPG game's Azlanti or ancient empires, and how similar for example that pulp pseudo science or sorcery is to some folks impressions of those ancient egyptians and what they may or may not have known.
Malazan Book Of The FallenWhat are those books like? Are they good?
There's a thread in the Books thread where the first post is a huge overview of the series. Might be worth checking out.
Overall, the first three books are the best. Books 2-3 tie with A STORM OF SWORDS by GRRM as the best epic fantasy novels of the 2000s. After that there is a gradual decline to about Book 8, then something of a recovery for the final two books, which offer a reasonable conclusion. However, Erikson at his worst is still vastly superior to say, anything that Eddings, Brooks or Goodkind have ever written in their lives, so these things are relative.
Something worth bearing in mind is that whilst the core 10-volume series does have some sense of resolution of the central story arc (though that arc is only present in maybe half the books of the series at best, and not always noticeably so), there's a lot of stuff left hanging for six further books Erikson is writing (two trilogies) and a six-volume series his friend and co-creator Ian Esslemont is working on (the fourth of which is published in January). Thus, the MALAZAN series is more accurately an incomplete 22-volume series written by two authors than a complete 10-volume one written by one. It's still worth reading and is still good (despite being often frustrating), but it has been mis-marketed a little bit.
A few short thoughts...
The pyramids at Giza are thought to be much older than the Greek account of history says. When you look at things like Ages and Aeons, the astrological clock is just now marking the Age of Aquarius, and some scholars say long ago 25,000bc is when a previous cycle, like the one we're beginning began.
Completely off topic, but scientific evidence in the archaeological record cannot find any evidence to date the pyramids past 5000 years old. The new age thinkers WANT the pyramids to be older just like creationists WANT the earth to be younger. The scientific evidence however does not support the theories of older pyramids.
Unfortunately the new age 'scholars' fall into a trap of making a conclusion and wrenching existing evidence to fit their conclusions. Just watch the Ancient Aliens show on history channel. It is a barrel of laughs at the conclusions they draw without taking science into account.
I am on episode 4. It just gets better. I just wish ancient aliens was on the Syfy instead so people did not think Ancient Aliens was a scientific show.
Ofcourse Ancient Aliens is useful for campaign ideas. I don't need science in my Fantasy RPG's, but scientific literacy is declining in the United States at least, and shows like Ancient Aliens only degrade it further.
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A few short thoughts...
The pyramids at Giza are thought to be much older than the Greek account of history says. When you look at things like Ages and Aeons, the astrological clock is just now marking the Age of Aquarius, and some scholars say long ago 25,000bc is when a previous cycle, like the one we're beginning began.
Completely off topic, but scientific evidence in the archaeological record cannot find any evidence to date the pyramids past 5000 years old. The new age thinkers WANT the pyramids to be older just like creationists WANT the earth to be younger. The scientific evidence however does not support the theories of older pyramids.
Unfortunately the new age 'scholars' fall into a trap of making a conclusion and wrenching existing evidence to fit their conclusions. Just watch the Ancient Aliens show on history channel. It is a barrel of laughs at the conclusions they draw without taking science into account.
I am on episode 4. It just gets better. I just wish ancient aliens was on the Syfy instead so people did not think Ancient Aliens was a scientific show.
If nothing else turn the volume off and just get a giggle from dudes hair.
If nothing else turn the volume off and just get a giggle from dudes hair.
No really, to get the full effect you have to listen to the nonsense he spouts. The Hair coupled with the verbage makes it almost as good as DOrkness Rising.
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If nothing else turn the volume off and just get a giggle from dudes hair.
No really, to get the full effect you have to listen to the nonsense he spouts. The Hair coupled with the verbage makes it almost as good as DOrkness Rising.
:) You could always take notes and do a weird modern game based on his ideas. Might even end up entertaining for a short run.