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I just played the Kortos Envoy and felt I had been cheated when I got my chronicle sheet a 10th level chronicle sheet had
Whats the point of risking a 10th level character if you get such slim pickings as treasure?
I don't think that the Module writers know the diffrence between treasure distribution i a tier 5-9 and a tier 10-11 module.
examples of what I consider level corret treasure items are
Weapons, armor and shields with a combined +4 bonus
EL 3 and 4 wands
Ring of protection +4 bracers of Armor +6, Boots of Speed
ANy Staff most Metamagic base and lesser rods
Scrolls with 5-7 level sells
BTW I spoke with my GM who happens to be my local VC Mike Azmeth and he argeed with me that the treasue on the Chronicle sheet was very chincy.
Module was very good until we got the chronicle sheet and the characters got ripped of by a cheap designer.
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Lou, first, please use spoilers when talking about specific things in a scenario. And to be clear, you are talking about a scenario, not a module.
Per Table 12-5 in the CRB, an average encounter for level 10 is going to get you just over 5000 gp worth of treasure - not enough for the type of items you are talking about. Further, most magic items are going to come from the NPC's you fight, and if you check out the NPC Gear guidelines (Table 14-9) you're looking at a 12th level villain before you even get a +2 weapon.
While these tables are only meant to show averages, I think some of your expectations are unrealistic by the guidelines given.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Ultimately, what equipment is available depends on what equipment the foes the PCs face have on them. And what those foes can have on them is limited by what's appropriate for NPCs of their given level as defined on table 14–9 on page 454 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. When NPC wealth deviates too far from this, it can impact the CR system and unbalance encounters. Even moreso, it makes it difficult to ensure the total wealth given per scenario is within the target range (which is usually about a 5% deviation from a given number).
So let's take a look at a CR 10 opponent, as an example, and see what equipment she can reasonably have. If she's an 11th-level creature with no racial hit dice and at least 1 player class level, that puts her at CR 10 and her target wealth should be 16,350 gp.
If she has a +2 weapon, that's already half her wealth, and we generally try not to give any NPC a single item worth more than half his or her total wealth. Assuming that weapon cost 8,350 gp (like a +2 greatsword) she's got 8,000 gp left. Assuming she's got a stat-boosting item (with a +2 bonus), that eats another 4,000 gp, leaving enough for a cloak of resistance +2 or a +1 armor and some scrolls and potions and such.
If she's the only creature in the encounter (making a CR 10 encounter), 16,350 gp is roughly 3 times the target amount of gold for a CR 10 encounter based on table 12–5 on page 399 of the Core Rulebook. That means that for her wealth not to throw the entire scenario out of whack in terms of rewards offered, at least two other CR 10 encounters need to give no wealth or significantly less than their target amount to even it out.
From your examples, many of the items are well above what a CR 10 opponent can afford, such as a ring of protection +4 (32,000 gp, or nearly twice her entire wealth allotment), bracers of armor +6 (36,000 gp, so even higher than the ring), or the cheapest staff in the Core Rulebook, the staff of fire (18,950 gp, or 2,600 gp more than she's got in total).
Consider, however, that a tenth level character must have 27 XP to level from 9th to 10th level. Over the course of the 27 scenarios required to earn that XP, such a character will have had the opportunity to earn 54 Prestige Points, and thus have a Fame score of somewhere around 40–50, assuming that PC didn't get every single item. With a Fame score of 45, that PC can purchase an item costing up to 41,000 gp. That covers every item you consider appropriate for a 10th-level PC. So you can still get all those items, even without us needing to design scenarios backwards around a specific expensive item for the PCs to get access to at the end.
So in short—er, long—there's more that goes in to what gear you get than just us deciding what we want to show up on a Chronicle sheet, and I think you'll find that if you look at the cogs that make the whole system keep churning level after level that it all works out in the end.
Edit: Thanks, Neil. You Canadians and your brevity. Ninjaing me because I can't type less than a five-hundred-word response...
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Mark, perhaps the devs should give the NPC's the samee WBL as PC's.
Thougher Npc's should equal better treasure for the PC's.
Neil perhaps table 12-5 needs to be changed. It sets a very low magic setting far less than Greyhawk or the Realms games that I played in and far far less than the Arduin system that I started gaming in.
I am going to step away form a game critism of PFS and gp tp a market drivin crtisim of what Pazio is doing.
WHy would I want to keep buing your product if I can't ever use70% of it because in game the magic item prices are over priced.
I want you guys to know I don't post just to complain I rally like Pazio and all of its products and I wnat to see Pazio last a very long time as a game comapny so I can buy your products because I have fun plying the game.
Even PFS which I find very consraining to play in is fun you could make it so much better if you opened it up a little more and did not feel that you had to have a leash around your players throats to hold them back let them have more fun and your sales will increase and you guys will make more money and we will get better products and have more fun.
Let PFS be the sounding board for your very good product
if somthing needs to be crankeed down a few notches after it is tested your venture captains can let you know and then you can mdify it until then let your players have some fun with it.
Mark your numbers look good but I feel that the WBL for tiers 7 to 11 need to be increased by 25 to 50%. Mark could you possibly think about
having 3 stages of wands so players could get 3rd and forth level wands and see them in the game sett prices for wands with 10 charges 25 charges and 50 chrges I don't think this would alter gthe game at all andwould let casters have sme good wands. You could do the same woth weapons enchantments you could drop the price and make them ronds or minutes per day. It works for calss abilities why not weapons enchanments.
I wnated you to know that season 3 senarios are by and far the best so far keep up the good content work. I am going to by Land of the Linorn Kings next week.
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You still can use many of those items, they are just unlikely to show up on Chronicles.
Using normal progression, you are looking at 33 scenarios to get to level 12. At an average of 1.5 PP/scenario, you end up with about 50 Fame when you are doing a Level 12 arc. That's enough to buy your character items with a 54000 gp value. And it's possible to earn enough Fame to get up to 120,000.
That covers an awful lot of items in the rulebooks.
Still, I am sure the developers appreciate the feedback.
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Well, the fame system has made the whole idea of finding items within scenarios completely pointless. You see chronicle sheets where you find no new items.
I agree that discovering new, superior items would be more beneficial and exciting. The NPC gear allotment whatever seems to trump this harshly, since as Mark demonstrated a NPC barely can carry anything of great wealth.
Kinda hollow, I know, but there aren't many ways to correct this.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Except at very low levels, I don't really see the point of items on the chronicle sheets, since you're almost always easily able to buy them based on your prestige total before you find them on a chronicle sheet. The only value I've seen for items on chronicle sheets are when they're unique items not otherwise legal to purchase (whether it's a boon, poison, or a wand with partial charges, etc.)
EDIT: I also don't understand why items appear on chronicle sheets that are always availible, like +1 weapons, 1st level scrolls or potions, etc.
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They shouldn't be. Do you have an example handy? I don't recall seeing basic +1 weapons or 1st level potions on any Chronicle.
3-04 Universal solvent
3-02 Scroll of invisibility & Scroll of major image on the 6-7 subtier
2-13 Belladonna
55 Oil of bless weapon
How does this weapon meet the numbers set forth?
2-19 +2 flaming greataxe (18,320gp) at tier 1-2
+2 flaming burst greataxe (32,320gp) at tier 4-5
Actually I was surprised, there were only a few always available items in my chronicles. But I have to say I saw alot of 2nd level spell scrolls/potions on non-first level tiers. Also there were a long selection of +1 cloaks of resistance/+1 amulet of natural armor/+1 ring of protection. Many times these were on tier 4-5. What's the point?
I do agree with JoelF, I would like to see more items that I couldn't buy if I hadn't completed the mission. Partially charged wands, Higher level scrolls (cl 9 magic missle maybe?)
Although I understand your position on the value of items on the chronicle, it doesn't really give them to the characters as it would under normal home game situations. It only makes them available. My last example in the spoiler is a great example. By luck the character that did that adventure could use that item, and is now saving up for it. I won't be able to get it for a while, but at least I can strive for it.
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I could be wrong, but I thought the idea behind the treasure on the chronicle sheet is that it's supposed to provide access to gear that you couldn't normally acquire (at the given level) with Fame/PA. Otherwise, why even bother putting them on the sheet? And why allocate so much of the space on the chronicle for them?
In practice, my characters have always had the PA to buy something far before anything useful turned up on the chronicle sheet. For example, I saw a Belts of Giant Strength appearing on a chronicle at subtier 6-7, but I've already purchased it at level 4. So that's not very useful or special.
In practice, I've never seen anyone purchase anything off their chronicle sheet. Well, that's not 100% accurate, the only things I've seen people purchase are wands with a limited number of charges, they're great. But besides that, no.
I read Mark's reply and personally, I wouldn't mind if there was one "big item" per scenario that consumes most of the treasure for a certain encounter. Having a single item that goes beyond the "50% loot ratio" (beyond Mark's 8000g in his example) for the encounter is a good thing imo. I think it would make players more excited about the loot, to get Boots of Speed (or some other good item), compared to giving the PCs lots of small mundane magical items.
If you gave the PCs cool and expensive items (that they would never buy, like "Cloak of the Bat" or "Rod of Wonder", etc.), I think it would be fun for players to try these items out during an adventure, even if they never keep them! I think things like that make the scenario more fun for the players.
Having said that, I'd rather have Paizo thinking about the overall quality of the scenario rather than thinking too much about the loot. I'm ok with ignoring the loot.
Lou Diamond, you have a good point, but I'm surprised you care, because it's been like this the entire time. You're level 10, you should have enough Fame to buy just about anything you want anyway.
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In practice, I've never seen anyone purchase anything off their chronicle sheet. Well, that's not 100% accurate, the only things I've seen people purchase are wands with a limited number of charges, they're great. But besides that, no.
Same here, except that I've seen some characters buy poisons, too.
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This may be something the new PFS campaign coordinator can look into. I'd like to see Mike send out a survey to PFS players/judges asking for feedback. That is something Dave Christ used to do for Living Greyhawk. Put together a survey, make it available and give people who complete the survey a chance at a minor boon.
On this particular topic, except for wands of CLW and partially charged wands, I don't think I've ever seen a chronicle sheet used to justify a purchase. The minor stuff is freely available and by the time you get the money to afford the bigger things, you usually have the Fame to make the purchase.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The day a rod of wonder shows up on a Chronicle sheet will be a dark day indeed.
Unless I'm playing a whimsical character. Then it shall be nothing but skittles and strawberry beer.
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But in general, I concur with Jason. There's all manner of low-level items that show up on Chronicle sheets, even at Tier 7-11. That's great, I suppose, for those 9th-level PCs who don't have more than 5 (or is it 9?) Fame and would like to buy a potion of some 2nd-level spell, but otherwise, why mention it?
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In practice, I've never seen anyone purchase anything off their chronicle sheet. Well, that's not 100% accurate, the only things I've seen people purchase are wands with a limited number of charges, they're great. But besides that, no.Same here, except that I've seen some characters buy poisons, too.
I did buy a set of +2 Plate once from a chronicle before I would have had enough fame but really, I have played almost all of the adventures available and used the availablity only a hand full of times. Time for a re-think, I think.
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I have to agree Todd and Joelf, some of things that I would like to see more partially consumed wands as well as other items, with less charges. Higher tier chronicle sheets can either be outstanding or bland. I personally would like to see the items list completely filled on each chronicle. First steps to delve a dungeon had a good mix of items, that made my mid experienced players excited.
Treasure in mods should be very item specific with the great customination of Pfs characters it would be very rare for a character of mine ever to find a weapon I would want, as well as making no real since, I will not expect to find a mithril +1 rapier with jurist and holy on it. But I do hope to see something like an amulet of mighty fist at tier 7-9. Perhaps a phycatery of channelling at around tier 5. A magical staff that can't be recharged at 9-11.
Consumable items, Meta magic rods and ammo should be in almost every chronicle. Placing these items to be attainable without fame. As well to let newer players that see what a pearl of power does.
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Neil finding treasure is one of the most satsifying parts of playing the game having goodies supplied buy your faction is just not as satsifying as kicking the BBG butt and finding his loot. Money wise it is the same but not as as fun as getting the BBGs loot.
So you are arguing that even though you have the cash to buy all this cool stuff, it ruins the game if you don't find it?
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Many of my players are questioning the point of even having magic items show up on chronicles if they could already have purchased them via fame.
I'm actually fine with how items are handled with the fame limit. Contrasted to Living Greyhawk, you couldn't buy an item until you found it...so found items really meant alot. However, because of that, every time you completed an adventure you carefully looked over your chronicle sheet to see what item access you earned, and were really excited when FINALLY you had access to that item that you really wanted! (It was Riding Boots for my Spirited Charging paladin, increased the damage modifier on charges by another multiplier).
I feel that we have to excite players about the rewards the get from playing an adventure, otherwise every adventure is just a generic +1xp, +tier gold, which is boring.
Since fame ultimately gives you access to everything (within reason), I would recommend changing the ways adventures reward players.
One idea would be to restrict item access significantly and make many items accessible by only "finding" them. I don't like this approach myself, but it would increase the value of item access. At this point in the campaign, I'd see this as incredibly difficult if not impossible to implement. This concept could also be used for feats or prestige classes, restrict them initially, especially from new books, and award them through adventures.
Instead of the above idea of restricting players options, I would much rather see special adventure specific awards given out. I have seen this pop up in a few adventures so far (Azlant Ridge Part 1, which I will add also had a very cool penalty for mission failure, and in the Frostfur adventures) but I would like to see much more. It's cool when a player can use a benefit they earned in a previous adventure, and it makes them feel like their previous adventures had meaning. It can be simple things like making their eyes glow blue in moonlight or resisting cold temperatures, or more powerful rewards like the ability to Rage for 3 rounds.
In addition, tie these boons specifically to player actions in the adventure. If you save that dwarf, he teaches you a little about stonecunning, but if shave his beard and sell it to an elven beard merchant, the elf will make you authentic dwarf beards giving +1 scruffiness but earning Dwarf Hatred. Some of my players complain about railroad adventures that doesn't really give them choices, but even if there's just one choice per adventure that affects the reward at the end, players would think "Oh, if we would have only shaved the dwarf!"
Even if rewards are minor, if they are unique to the adventure, players will be excited about them. I *still* have a player who keeps talking about his scary Tiger Mask he found in the Kingdom of the Impossible, even though in reality it's just a masterwork intimidate tool. Players should be excited at the end of each adventure and wondering what rewards they earned, and if it really mattered that they killed all those merchants.
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As long as it is possible to receive zero Fame from an adventure, then the Chronicles have to include every item in the adventure which requires more than zero Fame to buy.
The current system exists to reward completion of faction missions, and it successfully does so. If every item a PC ever wanted was available on Chronicles, then faction missions would be unnecessary to complete beyond banking a Raise Dead or for CLW wands.
What is unfortunate is that the current Fame system of item access is obviously too easy to climb the ranks of. Acquiring two Fame per scenario is the default, not the exceptional. Recall that the chart is based on the assumption of 1.5 Fame per scenario, not two. Thus, PCs are gaining "tiers" of item access more quickly than they were intended to, thus negating item access from Chronicles.
The very existence of this thread demonstrates this fact, as we have posters complaining about having too much Fame when measuring their item access to treasure found on Chronicles. If Fame was not as easily-acquired, this thread's general feeling would likely be different.
If there is a problem of PCs scaling the item access chart too quickly, then the problem can be solved by rewriting the chart, or making Fame harder to acquire.
-Matt
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But in general, I concur with Jason. There's all manner of low-level items that show up on Chronicle sheets, even at Tier 7-11. That's great, I suppose, for those 9th-level PCs who don't have more than 5 (or is it 9?) Fame and would like to buy a potion of some 2nd-level spell, but otherwise, why mention it?
And given the current system of PP in modules (1 for completing the module, 1 for faction) I imagine it will be increasingly unlikely that you would see a level 9 character with only 5 PP.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Matt, I have a character who received much of his early experience from GM credit during Season 0, when GMs received experience, half gold, and no prestige. Using current terminology, at 7th level, Qalaus had 9 fame. I hope you'll agree that 0.5 prestige per scenario is well below the campaign expectations.
But that's still enough to get faction access to items worth up to 1500 gp. I don't see why those items appear on the Chronicle sheets.
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And while I'm not a big fan of gonzo items, I do appreciate those odd expensive items that do appear once in a while (at 10th level, Qalaus paid 10 PP for an intelligent ring, and that's fun). I'd like to see more of that: items available through Chronicle sheets that offer the opportunity for colorful customization, by making items available well before a typical PC's fame would permit them.
"How on earth did you talk your faction leader into selling you a cloak of the bat?"
"I didn't. I went out and found one."
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Todd, on your list the only one which is always available is the last one.
3-04 Universal solvent (misc magic item)
3-02 Scroll of invisibility & Scroll of major image on the 6-7 subtier (not 1st-level)
2-13 Belladonna (not available - not on poison list in FAQ)
55 Oil of bless weapon (always available, but may have been added for clarity)
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Matt, I have a character who received much of his early experience from GM credit during Season 0, when GMs received experience, half gold, and no prestige.
Since day 1 of when GM Credit started there was never a time when GMs received 0 Prestige. When GM credit started, it was 1 XP. 1 PA and 1/2 Gp. Later on you started get full. So there is no way a Level 7 could have gotten only 9 fame if done correctly.
Well no way is strong, unless you played that PC a bunch of times as a player and received 0 PA during those times.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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EDIT: I also don't understand why items appear on chronicle sheets that are always availible, like +1 weapons, 1st level scrolls or potions, etc.They shouldn't be. Do you have an example handy? I don't recall seeing basic +1 weapons or 1st level potions on any Chronicle.
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All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from Chapter 6 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, including Small and Large-sized items. This does not include equipment made from dragonhide, but it does include equipment made from the other special materials, such as alchemical silver and cold iron (see the Special Materials section on page 154 of the Core Rulebook). , equipment, and alchemical gear found in any other source that is legal for play are considered always available.
I think last time the question of the Mithral Shirt came up it was explained that the adventure when written Mithral wasn't always available but was later added as always available.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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As I tend to GM more than I play I guess I am not too keen on the focus of chronicle rewards being in boons. I do remember as has been mentioned the thrill of getting access to something useful on an AR while playing LG. The fame system with the added fun of faction missions that we have in PFS is better but something has been lost as well.
I like the idea of access being more that a way to deal with PCs at the miserable end of the PA curve, though that is not to say don't support them just add a little extra too. A trader or craftsman offering a one off discount? Perhaps a special item at a slightly lower cost because of how it was obtained. Getting higher level wands with a only a few charges in them also brings a smile to my face. Access to one if these exceptional items being linked to a story choice also works really well.
A little something that means the player devour the info on the chronicle they way LGers did their ARs should add a little spice but open the game up to power creep.
W
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Director of Brand Strategy
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The problem with boons is there are some negative ones as well. Although that's fixable by allowing the GM to pick and choose the boons that they accept.
That's not the sort of fix I'm interested in putting in place. Given the wide nature of boons interms of positive and negative effects, as well as dependence on character choices during the scenario, simply not granting boons at all is the simplest solution.
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As I tend to GM more than I play I guess I am not too keen on the focus of chronicle rewards being in boons.I am not a fan of the GM not getting Boons either.. I have lost access to a ton of those! Some really good ones to.
Well, you're always able to play the adventure as a PC and gain those boons for your player credit. I find GMs not receiving boons to be acceptable as there's no risk to your character. I recall a particular adventure that, if you failed, you took a permanent -1 CON from torture. Risk, reward, and choice should all go together.
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Well, you're always able to play the adventure as a PC and gain those boons for your player credit.But for a different PC, the PC that got the Chronicle is can now never able get that boon.
How about this to compensate?
We already track GMs by their Star ranking. What if there was a specific GM Boon Chronicle that a GM could attach to one (or all) of their new PCs. Every time a GM earned a higher star rating, they would be awarded the Boon Chronicle for that next higher star level.
1 Star: You can reroll one attack. You can remember one spell. You can reroll one skill. You can use each of these boons once, then are crossed off.
2 Star: Same as above, but can use each of these boons twice. In addition, it costs 2 PA less to cast raise dead on this PC.
Repeat for higher star levels, perhaps with more interesting boons or special in-game titles for GMs that earn those higher ranks. What the actual boons are can be determined, but I like the concept of GMs earning a special perk boon, as you stated GMs do miss out on the normally earned boons.
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Neil finding treasure is one of the most satsifying parts of playing the game having goodies supplied buy your faction is just not as satsifying as kicking the BBG butt and finding his loot. Money wise it is the same but not as as fun as getting the BBGs loot.So you are arguing that even though you have the cash to buy all this cool stuff, it ruins the game if you don't find it?
I think he is, though 'ruin' doesn't equate with 'is just not as satisfying'.
Balancing WBL with Story-Earned Items:
There's an intangible extra value to winning your equipment directly over earning shopping funds, especially if that item is flavorful or was earned through heroism/cunning/your PC's ongoing development.
"Where'd you get that cool black blade?"
"From the icy caverns of Smarj." vs. "Magic Mart, aisle 6."
It's like scars. Sure I could give my PC scars. Or he could earn them.
It's also like gift cards. Some people love them, some people think they're thoughtless.
It's really sad that so few items get bought from Chronicle Sheets. Those items should represent earned opportunity.
Even if mechanically the same, and quickly forgotten in the heat of battle, it's still 'cooler' to find an item that you want.
BUT
The odds of a module designer including an item I actually want to allocate WBL to? Unreliable. Worse than the chances of my aunt buying me a good book I haven't read. (Thoughtless gift card, please...)
Possible solutions to as yet undefined problem about returning the joy of discovery to treasure hoards:
-Items on chronicle sheet are cheaper (even if 'always available')
A small savings, 5-10%?, would increase interest/joy at discovery without hurting game balance. There should be some joy in permanent items beyond "I'll use it for one adventure: FREE!" (of course, if it's really cool/out of PC's league, limited use may be priceless fun.)
-Buying items through fame has drawbacks, i.e. less immediacy. One adventure delay in upgrade/one item per adventure or level maximum (if not 'always available'), as in, it's quicker to pick up what you just found than to find it anew.
Or items not bought through fame have perks. Ideas?
-More module items with flavor/uniqueness. Perhaps the best option, as it makes the player want the item. A healthy mix of item types over the course of a series of modules (as influenced by editor) would support this.
Still subject to PC desire, but you could cover a larger base.
A lot of these could be mundane add-ons, like ivory-handled pistols or inexpensive items that a fashionable PC would want to sport or 'boon' items (like the Gnome Ring in ToEE, granting bonus to regional Gnome encounters).
Yes, it's already done, but not enough if Chronicle sheet items remain so unbought.
(Aside: It'd be funny if an intelligent item kept meeting itself. :)
"Have we met? You look really familiar? And handsome I must say.")
-Customizable treasure: Difficult in organized play, but what many home campaigns do 'behind the screen'. Even the 1.0 standby "Gain treasure under XXXX g.p. from King's Vault" would give the item ties to an adventure, even if not in adventure itself.
"I got this black blade for freeing the King's niece from her evil uncle's abyssal fortress. I DID NOT just buy this at Magic Mart!"
Or even tag lines on BBEGs such as "If there is a PC in the party with a comparable weapon preference, feel free to change the BBEG's weapon and feat selection to match."
Yes, earning the treasure to buy said item equates the same mechanically, but we're talking about non-mechanical joys here.
It breaks the verisimilitude if the GM has to ask the players 'what do you want?', but maybe somebody can think of a workable system for asking in the PFS context.
Maybe there could be a way through Chronicle Sheets for a PC/Player to put in a request in Adventure 17, and earn said item in Adventure 20 (or in next adventure with designated 'adaptable treasure' that can match that g.p. value, or after that 'floating' g.p. earned over course of x adventures gets to point he could have bought it.)
Yes, I know, I could lie to myself and say this happened for my PC's story, but...sigh, getting the item isn't the point, it's how you get the item. And yes, that'd add extra work, so :( :( :(, but there may be other options too that balance WBL with story-earned items.
Because, really, this isn't an MMORPG. I do want to accumulate and utilize the very items I fought to get. They're part of my PC's history.
And, no, it won't 'ruin' it for me if nothing changes, but I feel such changes would improve the PFS experience.
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How about this to compensate?Actually I not not looking for the rule to change, I understand the need for it. Still does not stop me from being upset about it. ;)
I recall seeing a previous thread asking for ideas for more GM awards... it doesn't hurt to throw ideas out now & then and see if a developer bites ;)
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Remember that even first level scrolls have utility, in that they can be scribed into wizards and magus' spellbooks, and taught to Witch's familiars.
Hmmm I think I need a witch with a pig familiar to feed scrolls to. If things ever go south at least I have a roundabout way of turning scrolls into bacon. (Although I'm probably not allowed to reflavor things so I should probably just get my pig some glasses and make her study up instead)
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I played around 100 games of LG. Only about five Adventure Records ever gave me anything I wanted for a total of maybe ten items all together(that stone man's puzzle mod had a bunch of good stuff from the miniatures handbook). If I were to add the higher APL stuff when I played the mod at a low level, than it would have still only gone up to around 10 ARs with about 15 items in around 100 ARs.
I like that we can mostly buy what we want or at least have more than very fer options. Some of these faction misions are downright hard or unlikly. That can make it challenging to get your more important/expensive for any given level but that challenge is part of what makes the items felt earned.
I firmly believe freedom to purchase what a character wants is as important to designing/imaging your pc as their feat selection and distribution of point buy and choice of class.
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I think the biggest issue with loot and chronicles is one that's already been stated, and I'll just state it again to throw my hat in the ring.
Rarely does anyone ever buy anything off of the chronicles unless it's unique, because by the time you can afford any given item that is straight out of a book, you usually have enough prestige/fame for it, so there's no point.
I have a level 11, a level 9, a level 5 and a level 2 character, and I have only bought a handful of items...higher CL wands or partially charged wands, or maybe a "fun" thematic item (a Beer Mug rings a bell at some point...).
Now, boons are a good start, don't get me wrong. Those are cool.
Next step...some unique items.
Rough examples:
- More partial charged/higher CL wands
- Higher CL scrolls
- Gorilla mask to emulate in some way what happens in Mists of Mwangi
- Special spellbooks dropped by any number of NPCs, and you get to copy X number for free, or simply just use the book as is
- Items that combine other items (like a ring that gives +2 to acro and athletics or a +2 bump item to STR and CHA...things like that)
- Flavor items with very small benefits; something like a small dragonling pet that is slotless and gives a +2 to perception or (at higher levels) has a very limited breath weapon -- something fairly unique and with flavor that still gives a minor benefit as well
I mean, really, the possibilities are endless in what you guys could have as special rewards for scenarios and still not "break" the game.
Anyway, just my 2cp.
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Mark perhaps you could just dorp he idea of a poor NPC's, IMO NPC's should have the same WBL or greater. My reasoing is this how can a super villian be a super villian or BBG if he is whimpier than
the PC's. This would also solve the probelm of haveing cool things appear on chronicle sheets.
IF GM's use BBG's and the 2ds to whip up on the players then it would be time for the Venture captains to step in and talk to the Killer GM
We have a Killer GM in my area [Painlord] You just have to be careful when you play on his table and be on your toes and you will survive unless you run into bad old plants.
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Mark perhaps you could just dorp he idea of a poor NPC's, IMO NPC's should have the same WBL or greater. My reasoing is this how can a super villian be a super villian or BBG if he is whimpier than
the PC's. This would also solve the probelm of haveing cool things appear on chronicle sheets.IF GM's use BBG's and the 2ds to whip up on the players then it would be time for the Venture captains to step in and talk to the Killer GM
We have a Killer GM in my area [Painlord] You just have to be careful when you play on his table and be on your toes and you will survive unless you run into bad old plants.
I'm hesitant about this because increasing NPC gear is somewhat hard to factor into increasing challenge CR. I'm not familiar with the rules PFS mod writers use, but from my experience with Living Greyhawk, I've played a few adventures where the mod writers completed loaded up some NPCs (devils of some sort, which already had a default CR) with gear and then they just destroyed about every group. I think it was allowed since their CR was only bumped up slightly for having gear...but the gear made them drastically overpowered.
That adventure was an outlier though, it seemed to be specifically designed to kill PCs. If you have a Killer Writer with tools to make Killer NPCs (aka more gear) it can make a difficult adventure into a TPK, regardless of what GM runs it later. I haven't seen this at all in PFS yet, but I imagine that is one reason NPCs have less gear.
Still, I don't necessarily think that NPC gear has to be specifically tied into rewards. There's already a degree of hand-waving as players don't get to keep what they find anyways. Players really only have so much gold anyways, I don't see a reason to give more expensive access earlier.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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The problem with boons is there are some negative ones as well. Although that's fixable by allowing the GM to pick and choose the boons that they accept.That's not the sort of fix I'm interested in putting in place. Given the wide nature of boons interms of positive and negative effects, as well as dependence on character choices during the scenario, simply not granting boons at all is the simplest solution.
Agreed it is the simplest solution. It is one that penalises the GM. Just to clarify not all of us are lucky enough to have the player base to run and play every mod, where I am it is a rarity!
Sure it is not the end of the world: the GM does always get full PA, which can be applied to a character regardless of how the mod went or the nature of the mission. Also full gold again regardless.
I do feel that some complicating of things to allow some boon-like aspect within GM rewards would be cool. Perhaps something relating to number of games....RPGA style cards anyone? ;-))
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Bbeg
Mark perhaps you could just dorp he idea of a poor NPC's, IMO NPC's should have the same WBL or greater. My reasoing is this how can a super villian be a super villian or BBG if he is whimpier than
the PC's. This would also solve the probelm of haveing cool things appear on chronicle sheets.IF GM's use BBG's and the 2ds to whip up on the players then it would be time for the Venture captains to step in and talk to the Killer GM
We have a Killer GM in my area [Painlord] You just have to be careful when you play on his table and be on your toes and you will survive unless you run into bad old plants.
What's on all the the npcs/4=the wealth you get. They have to keep it close to the wealth by level table, so they can't deviate too much. Unless you want less NPCs and more creatures to fight, so that the entire wealth by level for the scenario is on the BBEG but then people complain he's too hard (dalsine affair)
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Mark perhaps you could just dorp he idea of a poor NPC's, IMO NPC's should have the same WBL or greater. My reasoing is this how can a super villian be a super villian or BBG if he is whimpier than
the PC's. This would also solve the probelm of haveing cool things appear on chronicle sheets.IF GM's use BBG's and the 2ds to whip up on the players then it would be time for the Venture captains to step in and talk to the Killer GM
We have a Killer GM in my area [Painlord] You just have to be careful when you play on his table and be on your toes and you will survive unless you run into bad old plants.
I doubt this happens. Poor NPC's aren't a function of PFS, but rather a function of the RAW. You can increase an NPC's CR by 1 to give him the same value as a PC. But doing that consistently throws off the CR's of a scenario.