I and a group of friends have been playing through Rise of the Runelords, using the Pathfinder Alpha and now Beta. I give solid credit to our DM for his abilities in keeping our fractious pack of weirdos on any semblance of track.
To begin, let me say the good. The Path is immersive, a great deal of thought has gone into the scenarios and world, the NPC's are in the main believable and I have to say- outside of Call of Cthulhu(tm) I've never had a pc with obsessive-compulsive disorder caused by a game module before.
The books are well-written, and the monsters are well-thought-out.
However, and maybe this is just the opinions of myself and the players in my group, that the 'treasure' portions have thus far been...well. 'Sub-par' doesn't cover it.
I've been keeping track of Party Treasure thus far, and discounting items and monies thrown in by our DM, we have accumulated a rough maximum of around 8,000 GP per player at most; I estimate (and I don't think I'm too off) that if you count the stuff our PC's are using, we have maybe 15,000 gp in money and items *total* per PC. Mind you, this is with our PC's doing everything but stripping places to the walls and having Garage Sales in Sand Point...
Is this...normal, nowadays? We've gotten from Level 1 to (just recently) Level 8, and our DM (whom we justly praise) has had to allow us to make magic items with the monies we've accumulated just to get *useful* items. A PC starting at 8th level is supposed to begin with 33,000 gp worth of items, and on average we have less than half that amount. The dangers and challenges of the Path are by no stretch of the imagination 'halved', so we feel we are fighting an uphill battle and- to be honest- we're reduced to digging for any scrap of advantage to change the tide a little in our favor.
On some level, I keep getting the impression that the Adventure Path is someone's story in which the Party is...well, an afterthought, rather than pivotal reasons for the Path's existence in the first place. Don't get me wrong- we're enjoying the Path immensely, but it's very frustrating that the 'rewards' are either useless (+1 Ogre Hooks? Who *makes* these things?) or an item which would be useful for the NPC who coincidentally has it but not the Party (a Vicious weapon wielded by a Regenerating NPC, as opposed to a relatively low-hitpoint PC).
In the most recent portion of the adventure, we are beginning to get the impression that the Ogres have a 'uniform'. Ogre Hook, +1 (check) Hide Armor, +1 (check) Large-sized Masterwork compound longbow, Strength bonus up to +7 (check).
Our *party* doesn't have a magic item in common, yet the supposedly barbaric low-intelligence Ogres do?
(As an aside, my PC- a Wizard- has quietly vowed to find the insane spellcaster who had nothing better to do than make and enchant Ogre Hooks and kill him/her. As a service to the civilized world and for the insult to the world of enchanters his or her work represents.)
So far, we've seen magical Dogslicers...Ogre Hooks...War Razors...more Ogre Hooks...Hide Armor / Shirts...and large-sized Masterwork items. We've seen I think *one* magical Sword. A few magical Spears. Some daggers. Sets of magical Masks which not a single party member wanted to risk, since they reeked of Evil. We nearly saw a magical bow, but it belonged to a Good NPC and due to our alignment we felt compelled to give it back. (We as players were of a different mind due to the fact it was the *only* magical ranged weapon in Varisia apparently. But I digress.)
I understand that the Adventure Path is not geared toward 'Monty Haul' or intended to be a greed-motivated Path. I'm perfectly okay with this, every member of the Party is Good. However, we depend on Items and the money to buy other Items to 'level the field' against the monsters, and while I can comprehend that the magic items are appropriate to their NPC users, it seems that gear aimed at the Party is almost conspicuously absent. Treasure hoards have little more than money in small amounts, potions, and copious amounts of Adventure Hooks and background info. We salvaged a Giant *Helmet* because we *needed the money that badly*.
I hope I'm not overstating the case, but we are as a group intensely frustrated. Our DM has gone to heroic- and ongoing- lengths to provide off-the-cuff rewards that the module simply doesn't have.
Items conspicuously absent or present in too low of number:
Storage Items (Bags of Holding, Handy Haversacks)
Movement Items (Boots of Striding and Springing, closest is a single pair of 'Boots of the Mire')
Standard 'Fantasy Weapons' which are magical (Swords, Maces, Crossbows, Bows, etc.)
Rings beyond 'Protection +1 or +2'
Rods
Staves
Useful Wondrous Items
I admit, as a long-time D&D player, maybe I am used to the idea being that 'found items' are the things PC's aren't supposed to collect enough money to actually buy- they were the rewards for being an Adventurer in the first place, the reason we went out into insanely dangerous situations instead of becoming Accountants. There seems to be an idea that once you place a monetary value on something, that means it must only be available at 'x' level, without consideration of the actual power level of the item in question. Example: Ring of Regeneration. The 'cost' of 90,000 gp means a PC 'should' be able to get it- at a level where it's nigh useless to them.
Speaking as a Player and sometime GM, I see too much hesitance to give items to players based on arbitrary 'gp value' instead of 'what can this actually *do*'.
We are enjoying the game, but it is seriously counterbalanced by the lack of rewards which improve our PC's. If there were perhaps 'other rewards' such as opportunity to learn new Spells, languages, maybe even magical things that granted a bonus to an Attribute, it would be less frustrating to the players. They're easy enough to insert into play or grant by 'Divine Miracles' or whatnot.
A good point
I'm currently DMing this AP, and I seem to recall reading about this issue in another thread.
You are correct that you won't see a lot of standard magic items. I've actually enjoyed this aspect and like how the bad guys have magic items that suit them. However, I see your point. Some have suggested that "evil" magic items can be sold to a temple in Magnimar (who will in turn destroy them).
It seems you are well past Hook Mountain, but I'll spoilerize this just in case.
I also have had NPCs introduce the party to craftsmen in Magnimar who can build customized magic items for the group there. The PCs have liked the ability to get their own stuff made. I hope some of these ideas are helpful.
I'll toss some comments out in no discernable order (if any)
But there's always Magnimar. You have a pretty good chance of getting anything that costs less than 40.000gp - that 's +6 ability boosters, bracers of armour +6, +5 armours and shields (and you'll probably have no problems getting the more widespread types here), +4 weapons (again, less common weapons might be a problem), +4 rings of protection, +4 amulets of natural armour, +5 cloaks of protection, portable holes.....
In the Age of Lost Omens, you have to make your own prophecies!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32
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Me and mine have also noticed the dearth of money in the campaign... it was at 5th level when i realized the party had the magic items/resources of a 3rd level party.
I tried to up the treasure found, but i wasn't satisfied with that
To fix the difference in magic power/item I basically had the Mayor of Magnimar reward the party after Hook Mountain with a choice of items from the vaults of Magnimar. The conditions that the mayor put on this was 1) only pick one item and 2) no item worth more than 25,000 gp.
That seemed to work out well. And now that the PCs are in the Runeforge the dearth of (useful) magic items isn't as noticeable.
Of course, YMMV.
Yeah I can see this as a huge problem for my party cause we have 6 players so I will have to add more treasure at alot of places
When I DMed Runelords, I cut most of the listed treaures by half or more. And I don't usually allow players to buy magic items.
Oddly enough, we only had one PC death the entire campaign.
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You think you have it bad? My PCs are dealing with having a party almost twice the size recommended AND a PC priestess of Desna who insists that anything found in "civilized" areas such as peoples' homes, a certain mansion, etc. belong to the owners or if deceased, their families, and rather than "be greedy" and keep these items or wealth for themselves, they must either leave them be or find the families to give them to.
A couple of the other players have pointed out the folly of being unprepared for future dangers, but this PC has detected a theme of sin and is doing her best to keep her companions from falling under its power.
I think I've got the party back on track, by upping the amount of reward for
Creative Director
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All of Pathfinder's adventures assume a group of four players, so if you have more than four, you will indeed need to add in some treasure to keep them on track. We do try to skew the amount of treasure we put into the adventures at about 150% the amounts that the DMG lists as standard to account for PCs having to spend money on resurrections and other stuff, but in the end, each GM knows his party's tastes for treasure the best, and you should absolutely adjust the amount of treasure in an adventure so that it works best for your group.
Also: Magnimar's only a day travel away from Sandpoint. I know that the "magic item shop" isn't to the taste of some GMs, but the fact remains that the game is built from the ground up to support the sale of unwanted magic items (like magic ogre hooks and dogslicers) to the big city to finance the outfitting of PCs. If your group isn't into that, you absolutely SHOULD seed more magic items into the adventures, particularly ones that skew toward the types of magic items your group uses. Have a fighter who has Weapon Specialization (glaive)? Make sure you throw a few magic glaives in there. Have a bard? Make sure there's some magic instruments in the mix. Have a wizard? Throw in a few more NPC wizards with spell books and wands.
And as for evil items, having a good temple pay a bounty for things like unholy swords is a great idea. The temple of Abadar is also totally open toward buying any magic items of course, but for players who worry that putting a +1 unholy dagger or a skinsaw mask back into the market might encourage more evil to flourish, selling them to a temple of Desna or Sarenrae or Torag works as well. Such temples SHOULD pay bounties for these objects, and then either destroy them or redeem them or whatever. Think of it as a reward from a good temple to a party for taking an evil item out of circulation, I guess.
Stuff about treasure allocation
Being a long time "hanger about" on the Paizo boards, and somebody who has grilled James about Runelords a lot, I got some perspective. It was more last year than this year.. but I'm pretty versed with his outlook on some of these topics.
I'm also running two different versions of Runelords. One with 3.5 (up to Sins of the Savior now), and one with Pathfinder (in the Skinsaw Murders).
One group has complained about their treasure. They're also the group that hasn't been as meticulous about recording their treasure and selling it. They do have one decent person who maintains the treasure list, but when he had to take a few sessions off, they were pretty careless.
The longer lasting group was always really good about their treasure and sold it, and turned in evil items for bounties.. and when they had outdated equipment (like weapons they were not using), they sold it. THAT GROUP, has pretty decent equipment and has never complained since after Burnt Offering up to the start of Chapter Five.
I don't use the Magic Shoppe myself, but in the larger cities like Magnimar, I do let them locate NPCs that I make up.. who will sell them some crafted items. Usually in between chapters, and I manage not to cringe too much about it.
This is just how it went for me.
I certainly won't argue the many efforts by DM's to compensate- Magick Shoppes, trading, wish lists, etc.- I was more or less saying that in our opinion the treasure was more Salvation Army than Vaults of Archimedes. :)
And in a way, I think our frustration is very much a compliment. The rest of the Path is so *good* that the few bad things stand out, and we push on despite the frustration.
Some of the items so far have...to put it mildly...stood out.
For example, the weapon carried by
And then there was the Vicious weapon carried not-so-coincidentally by a creature which regenerates and thus wouldn't end up killed by its own weapon...
I'm not trying to bash the Adventure Path, I'm just saying- please keep this in mind for future Paths.
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I startet to demand Wishlist from my players. Yes, a wishlist for magic items they might get during the campaign.
I ask them to tell me what items they think would fit their pc in low, mid and high level play.
In the end, its all about the players pcs, and therefore I start swapping items given in a module with those from the wishlist.
This way I can also think ahead!
Works fine so far...
As the GM of the OP's game I have noticed the need to seed the adventure with items. I was wondering, however, if there's any chance of maybe a few more advice sidebars or some sort of suggestion tossed into the introduction of the adventure suggesting where to seed and such. I think I'm used to just playing a module as is with a little tweaking and while I've tossed things in I entered the module sort of expecting that detail to be sorted out. A small blurb in either the first editorial letter of the first issue or the adventure path summary of future adventure paths might prepare silly little GMs like myself for inserting their own choice equipment ahead of time rather than relying completely on the AP. I admit I'm at fault here at least partially as I should have identified this issue long ago and begun seeding more things. Fort Rannick would have been the perfect location for a long sword and short sword of magical nature to be used as an Ogres eating utensils or to poke and prod long dead prisoners. A little more work on my part and my players complaints could have been silenced.
If James or Charles are still checking on this thread is there any chance of seeing a side bar or a comment related to tailoring treasure to the party in future adventure paths?
EDIT: Heh, I actually started doing the Wishlist thing as well. Have yet to incorporate it but something I was inspired to do by one of the few 4e games I'm playing in pbp.
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My group that I play in is currently in Sins of the Saviors. The one big issue we have had with magic item drops is all of the damn Rings of Protection +1 that we acquired. It took until the last adventure before +2 rings started to drop as treasure if I remember right. At 50% sell price, and standard price of 2000 gp for a RoP +1 the money does not add up well when trying to upgrade gear at level 11+.
Just my two cents.