Few questions as the text is kind of blank on this part.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
Does it share the shadowdancer's hit dice? Gain levels and skill points etc? The rules seem kind of vague. It says the shadow is a "companion" but doesn't relay any information past that. Just seems so odd, having a lvl 10 character with a "companion" with 3HD. But over 60HP.
It has 3 hit dice, it can't be turned or commanded, it uses the shadowdancer's BAB and base save bonuses. In addition it has half the HP the shadowdancer has.
That's about it -- that easy and that complex.
You'd think such an intrinsically linked companion would have more to it. DC 15 fort save or -1 lvl, an entire month till you can get a new one, shares HP, base saves etc. but gets no feats nor levels. Just seems really odd.
If you look to see how hard that thing is to kill you may rethink how odd it is.
One thing I am not clear on, is it or can it be considered a companion or familiar in terms of improvement?
One thing I am not clear on, is it or can it be considered a companion or familiar in terms of improvement?
It's neither a companion nor a familiar - it's a summoned creature.
Summoned is a technical distinction in Pathfinder; animal companions and familiars are called (as they are bound to their character).
It's an apples and oranges kind of distinction.
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It explicitly states that: "Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn."
So it's the normal shadow, except for all the parts where it's different. Anything that's not changed is the same as in the bestiary, which is why there isn't a complete stat-block there; you can use the bestiary stat-block for most things.
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It explicitly states that: "Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn."
So it's the normal shadow, except for all the parts where it's different. Anything that's not changed is the same as in the bestiary, which is why there isn't a complete stat-block there; you can use the bestiary stat-block for most things.
The Owl is Wise.
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Hehe :)
It's annoying design though... after the animal companions, familiars, and cohorts, now there's a fourth kind of dependent creature that levels up in yet another way.
Since it gets HP in the same way as a familiar, it makes more sense to me that it also uses the same HD rules as familiars do (HD = owner HD, just a funky amount of HP).
Hmm. It's a summoned creature?
I see some kind of ridiculous Rogue/Wizard/Shadowdancer/Arcane Trickster build with summoning feats in the future that specializes in sneak attacking with conjuration spells and summoned creatures, including its own shadow companion.
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@Vestrial: what are you trying to do?
A shadow from the Bestiary has 3 HD.
Shadowdancer shadows are (implicitly) Bestiary shadows except for those things explicitly different:
* Shares the master's alignment
* Can't create spawn
* +4 to Will save to resist Channel damage, can't be Turned or Commanded
* Can communicate intelligibly with master
* Has half master's HP
* Has master's BAB and base Save bonuses
Everything else about the shadow is the same as in the Bestiary. HD isn't changed, so HD is 3. There's just no rule that changes the shadow's HD.
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No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there's no rule altering the shadow's HD.
Compare it to the wizard: the wizard's familiar gets the master's BAB, saves and half HP, just like the shadowdancer's shadow. But the familiar has actual text describing what happens to the familiar's HD, while the shadowdancer doesn't have that text.
It's weird, and maybe it's an oversight, but there's just no rule for it.
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Besides that, the "rule" about HD and CR is for designing independent monsters, not for companion-monsters. Companions monsters don't get independent CR, they're part of their master's CR. And it notes in the same paragraph that it's not a hard rule, because some published monsters differ from it, to offset unusual AC or other defensive abilities.
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Actually Vestrial, the Summoned Creatures, Animal Companions, Eidolons, Familiars, and Cohorts are assumed to be a part of the Controller's CR. So the Shadow doesn't have a CR... it in fact has no CR and doesn't count for experience points.
Pg. 304 in Bestiary
Summon (Sp) A creature with the summon ability
can summon other specific creatures of its kind much
as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually
has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the
creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers
the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return
whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this
way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require
material components costing more than 1 gp unless those
components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon
ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each
summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level
checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are
awarded for defeating summoned monsters.
Format: 1/day—summon (level 4, 1 hezrou 35%); Location:
Spell-Like Abilities.
In dragon magazine there was a clarification on this whole matter for 3.5 I think. If it does exist I don't which issue it was. From what I know the ONLY "summoned" creatures that would count is a creature that is Called AND only when it's no longer taking the spell slot of the spell caster that called it.
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there's no rule altering the shadow's HD.
There is a rule, you're just choosing to ignore it. Show me the rule that says companions don't follow the rules for any other creature, or that don't have CR? (Not to mention this is not a companion, it's a summoned creature that gets advanced). Every creature in the game has a CR. A creature summoned in combat is not counted towards an encounters CR, but a permanent, or pre-summoned one is. But even if it's not 'counted towards' the encounters CR, the creature itself still has a CR.
So I have a 15th level shadowdancer npc. Say his shadow has around 50hp, +14 to hit, around +12 to all saves. So if that dancer dies (or sends the shadow out on his own), by your rationale that shadow is a cr3, which is rather silly.
And, Vestrial, you're choosing to ignore the fact that the Shadowdancer's Shadow companion is not like a normal Shadow. It says so in the description of the power. It's HD do not change. It simply has more HP and saves than a normal Shadow.
And, yes, if you send a Shadow on it's own, it's a CR3 monster. When it's near it's master, it gets stronger. Why is that silly? Its' morale changes, because its' alignment changes. It feels a compulsion to protect and help its' master.
I don't see an issue with the rules as written. Are people wanting a more powerful Shadow companion that scales as the Shadowdancer levels? The Dancer's shadow companion wasn't meant to be like a Druid or Ranger's animal companion...
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that in the rules.
Well, there's absolutely nothing to suggest the Shadow's HD change, either, yet you're adamant about arguing for it.
As far as the scaling, I was using a specific example but poorly worded it. I was asking if people want ALL the powers of a Shadow to scale, not just the ones referenced in the ability. Of course I've read it.
How about we stick to what's written in the description of the Shadowdancer's specific Shadow, and not worry about Bestiary rules of HD and CR, since neither of those apply.
Start with a standard, Bestiary Shadow. Match it's alignment to the summoner. Take away the ability to create spawn. Add 4 to the will save against positive channeled energy. Take away the ability to be turned or commanded. Increase hit point total to half the Dancer's. Use BAB and save bonuses of the Dancer. Everything else remains untouched. To include the bare HD and CR number. Sorry if you don't agree, but it's a special summoned monster. As I said earlier, it was never meant to be a super awesome beast like a Druid or Ranger's companion. It's a convenient perk that's not easy to kill.
I agree with you on the "summoning" thing, though, that reference is completely irrelevant to this situation. That would apply only if the Shadow itself could summon more shadows.
Vestrial, you're again pointing out the wrong thing. A 15th level Shadowdancer wouldn't be an appropriate challenge for a level 3 party. The shadow of the Shadowdancer is not an independent creature. It's part of the shadowdancer's class abilities. It's like dropping a familiar on a party, the familiar by itself doesn't have a CR as it's part of the wizard's class ability.
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Vestrial, you're again pointing out the wrong thing. A 15th level Shadowdancer wouldn't be an appropriate challenge for a level 3 party. The shadow of the Shadowdancer is not an independent creature. It's part of the shadowdancer's class abilities. It's like dropping a familiar on a party, the familiar by itself doesn't have a CR as it's part of the wizard's class ability.
This.
why is a lvl 15 shadowdancer attacking a lvl 3 party?
It's not like shadowdancer enhanced shadows wander around looking for low lvl parties to kill.
And this.
I'm not the one ignoring actual rules. You're quoting rules for a regular Shadow, independent of the Shadowdancer's ability and trying to force those rules into applicability even though the Shadowdancer's ability SPECIFICALLY outlines its' abnormality.
I'm quoting the rules that apply to the original poster's question. No other rules matter, no matter how much you want to force them.
You're ignoring basic mechanics of the game
No, actually, the Shadowdancer's Summon Shadow Supernatural ability is ignoring the basic mechanics of the game. I didn't write the ability, I'm simply quoting it.
The fact that you either disbelieve it or call it stupid because it ignores other game mechanics seems to be your issue.
Should I start quoting the millions of other powers that ignore other game mechanics? Why not start with feats? I think it's stupid that Lunge allows you to hit things further than 5' away because it ignores basic game mechanics.
See the problem here? It's not the ability. It's your interpretation. NO ONE CARES WHAT THE SHADOW DOES WHEN THE MASTER ISN'T AROUND. No one cares about CR or HD either. They don't improve or scale because the power doesn't say that they do. Period. End of story.
Yes, you think it's absurd. Personally, I agree. That doesn't invalidate the rule. You don't like it, don't become a Shadowdancer or homebrew/houserule it out. The rules stand as written.
Vestrial, you're again pointing out the wrong thing. A 15th level Shadowdancer wouldn't be an appropriate challenge for a level 3 party. The shadow of the Shadowdancer is not an independent creature. It's part of the shadowdancer's class abilities. It's like dropping a familiar on a party, the familiar by itself doesn't have a CR as it's part of the wizard's class ability.Quote where it says companions can't go do things without their master around? Or after their master dies? The idea that it carries his masters CR even if his master is not present in the fight is as absurd as suggesting he has no CR. The master has CR, which, in the case of those with the ability to summon critters in-combat, reflects those abilities. It does not reflect permanently summoned creatures, however. And creatures operating on their own use their own CR, not the CR of their boss, their bff, or their daddy.
The level 3 thing was just to point out the absurdity of pretending the shadow has no CR. There's nothing at all in the rules to suggest this.
No, Barry, you're not. You're ignoring basic mechanics of the game, in the exact same way that if his dex were increased, you would argue his AC wasn't, because that's not what the base shadow says. Some stats are derived from other stats. You cannot change the latter without changing the former, which is what you're trying to do.
In any case, OP, bottom line is ymmv. Ask your GM.
Show me where it says that the shadow sticks around after the shadowdancer dies? There's no template or freed companion template for the shadow. Without the shadowdancer it doesn't exist. Heck in my games the shadow can't go further than 300 feet away from the dancer or it ceases to exist (which granted is a house rule). But as it stands, there's nothing to show a free willed shadowdancer shadow. So a level 15 dancer's shadow attacking some level 3 people is a massive waste of resources for the dancer, as his shadow will pretty much own the party and giggle.
Creatures that are granted as part of class abilities have no CR of their own when with their master. They do not grant individual XP, nor are they considered in factoring encounter difficulty. They are simply part of their master's CR. A Cleric that summons ten monsters does not grant extra XP for every celestial badger.
When a necromancer creates a skeleton and fights the party, similarly, the skeletons do not grant their own XP. The skeletons are, on that day, considered to be 'part' of the necromancer difficulty-wise. Now, if the necromancer keeps them and is allowed to refresh his spells, they become an independent challenge -- they exist above and beyond his normal combat ability.
Logically, a Shadow encountered apart from its master wouldn't have the full CR of the master. It wouldn't make sense to award a low level party the full XP for defeating a high level wizard in combat if all he did was appear, throw a Long-range spell at them from 500 feet away, and flee with a contingent teleportation effect; and it makes just as little sense to award full XP for defeating a creature's companion, which mechanically is just another single class ability.
Similarly, it doesn't make sense to award no XP for defeating such a companion. If a party survives an attack by a high level wizard that runs away and never reappears, they still overcame a challenge -- exactly the same sort of thinking that awards a party XP for encountering a trap, whether they disable it or get hit in the face with it. Defeating a companion in combat is still defeating -part- of a character, so it should come with some kind of appropriate award.
To give full XP would be an overly-generous prize, like awarding a major magic item for beating a goblin. Giving no XP doesn't reflect the challenge of survival the party overcame, and more importantly isn't fun.
Let's look at balance. The Shadow companion is already really rather good. It has half the Shadowdancer's HP ... it also is Incorporeal, and will take half damage from nearly all sources. This companion already has more effective hit points than any other similarly-leveled companion right out of the box. The damage it deals is also very resistant to degrading against the enemies due to rising CRs -- where a normal companion's mundane damage gets lower and lower in comparison to the exponential growth of enemy hit points, the shadow's Strength damage stays awesome in relation to enemy Strength scores for its whole lifetime even without feats. Since it attacks as an incorporeal creature, it is also very resistant to decline of attack bonus.
So the Shadow companion out of the book, even limited, is a more than suitable companion -- it almost exists in a vacuum, neither needing nor strongly desiring more than it already has.
You've used an argument from consistency -- that it's strange for the shadow to operate differently from other companions in the game. As far as the core of your argument, however, I'd argue that they operate similarly and that this works against your position.
You suggest that because shadows can be encountered separate from their masters, they must have a CR; because they must have a CR and they clearly become more powerful, their CR must increase; and because there is a link between CR and HD, then HD must increase with CR, and that the Shadow would benefit from HD related increases.
However, many companions could be encountered separate from their masters, which are unaware, unable or unwilling to help. I think that we can both agree that although an animal companion or a familiar might be based on the one in the Bestiary, each of them will have different stats based on level -- and you can't find the CR for a 5th or 15th level familiar any more than you can find the CR of a 10th level Shadowdancer's Shadow companion.
I understand where you're coming from -- I'm just not following and agreeing with your logic to the very end. I agree that if encountered separately from their master, a companion would have 'some kind of CR'. I agree that effective CR would increase. But rather than finding a way to give a companion a CR, you and I disagree -- you prefer instead to reinterpret how the ability works, which seems to me that it'd have larger effects on the system as a whole.
Further, it seems like even if the Pathfinder devs wanted to write a system for determining the independent CR of companions, it would be difficult; unrewarding; and would introduce more problems. Pets vary in strength so much based on source (an eidolon might be better than an AC, might be better than a mount, might be better than a familiar). Such a system probably wouldn't work, or wouldn't always work, which would lead to complaints from readers whether they used it or not. I doubt such a CR system would often be used at all; and even then, the first thing I imagine is that new GMs would start misinterpreting it and accidentally awarding their parties XP for defeated pets with their masters.
Even if Shadows were rewritten for HD increases as the Shadowdancer leveled, then the entry would need to be rewritten since their advancement has been 'detached' from their hit dice. Their hit points are already a fixed division, so they'd need to stay that way or begin using their own value. Their base attack bonus already increases based on their master, so they'd either be gaining a bonus on top of the Shadowdancer's bonus (ew) or they'd need to determine it manually. Hopefully it's becoming clear to you that we're not talking about a rule adjudication, we're talking about minor surgery: It can not be plugged in.
Why do you say it has 3 HD? It really has no HD, but half the dancer's HD would be a good rough estimate, if you ever needed a number.
If you were absolutely bent on houseruling something, this is where I'd do it. I'd continue having its statistics detached from hit dice and related only to the master's level, but it could gain an effective hit dice value, just like familiars.
Okay, yeah, I'm going to apologize for the length of that post.
This makes me want to play a Summoner with the Shadow Caller Archetype 5/Shadow Dancer 3/Summoner 12. 1 fleet of shadows, coming right up! The idea that your eidolon is your shadow along with the shadow you get from the Shadow Dancer PrC sounds like it could be pretty fun.
You can encounter an Animal Companion whose master has died in an AP.
In Kingmaker, there is a horse roaming the wilderness. It was once the Animal Companion of an elder Druid that released it before it died, then cast Awaken on it.
The horse is statted out as an Awakened Advanced Heavy Horse, and is protecting a herd of Advanced Heavy Horses that are native to the area.
That may or may not affect your opinion on the issue regarding what happens to Animal Companions after death / release, though I see that even now it remains interpretive.
Have you thought any more about how your situation is different from determining the CR of a high level wizard's Familiar, which is also stronger but similarly has no independent CR?
GMs care. I happen to be a GM. Sometimes masters die, leaving their pets unattended. Forget the shadow for a moment, how about a druids companion? 10th level druid dies, leaving a pissed off pet that flees, then stalks the party. That pet now has no cr because it was a companion? Or it reverts to it's base stats? Both ideas are absurd, and neither is supported by the rules. The ability it question does not exist in a vacuum. it presumes a basic understanding of core mechanics. CR is a basic tool for DMing, and cannot just be ignored, else bad things happen.
This is probably the first valid response I've heard. Although my words are being taken a bit out of context. I meant within this post, because it was about a Shadow companion's scaling, no one cares about HD, CR, or what happens to it when its' master dies.
I am also a GM. Yes, sometimes the masters die and leave the pets behind. If you've been a GM for a while, and I assume you have since you say you have a basic understanding of core mechanics, what do you do when there are no rules?
You make them up. You wing it, do whatever is best for the story, make an educated guess based on other mechanics, etc...the rules are simply guidelines. You can be a good GM without ANY rules whatsoever. If you let the rules dictate everything and go into "headless chicken mode" without them, you're never going to be that great GM that everyone remembers.
"Bad things happen" because you allow them to happen. At the end of the day, you can toss out the rulebook and do whatever you want. It's Rule 0.
If, in your campaign, the companion or familiar pops into a pocket dimension awaiting it's master's return when they die, who's to say that's wrong?
In my campaigns, if a "summoned" companion lives and master dies, such as a Shadowdancer's Shadow or a Paladin's mount, they return to their home plane until recalled by the resurrected master. I don't count this as a familiar "dying", but I will make them go through the resummoning process without the penalties.
If a "converted" companion or familiar lives and master dies, such as a Druid/Ranger's companion or a Wizard/Witch's familiar, they refuse to leave the corpse out of devotion and protection and offer no assistance to the party out of sheer grief. I do not make the resurrected master reaccomplish the bonding process.
CR/HD of the lone creature never, ever comes into play because I don't allow it to.
See the problem here? It's not the ability. It's your interpretation. NO ONE CARES WHAT THE SHADOW DOES WHEN THE MASTER ISN'T AROUND. No one cares about CR or HD either. They don't improve or scale because the power doesn't say that they do. Period. End of story.GMs care. I happen to be a GM. Sometimes masters die, leaving their pets unattended. Forget the shadow for a moment, how about a druids companion? 10th level druid dies, leaving a pissed off pet that flees, then stalks the party. That pet now has no cr because it was a companion? Or it reverts to it's base stats? Both ideas are absurd, and neither is supported by the rules. The ability it question does not exist in a vacuum. it presumes a basic understanding of core mechanics. CR is a basic tool for DMing, and cannot just be ignored, else bad things happen.
I'm a GM as well. If a party runs into a shadowdancer's shadow, they are going to run into the shadowdancer as well.
Druid companions are very different (in my opinion) than the Shadow or a wizards familiar (which for the most part I have just revert to an animal if the spell slinger dies and hasn't done anything to make his familiar special).
And as Barry said, rule 0; you fake it. For PCs what the CR for their companion is it really doesn't matter, if it's an NPC's thing, then you play it by ear.
On another note:
In our campaign we house-ruled that the shadowdancer can "detach" and "reattach" his shadow within a standard action. When the shadow is "attached" it acts like a normal shadow, thus it dosen't exists as a creature and can't be harmed. If it is detached the shadowdancer has no shadow at all. Which can be noticed by a perception roll (DC depending on the environment).
We ran into a lot of questions like "does the shadowdancer has a shadow while his shadow is summoned", "can his shadow mimic all his movements when he is basically a creature of it's own" ?
It's a shadow with a special template.
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It seems like there's a few things going on here:
1) First of all, CR has nothing intrinsic to do with HD and I'm not really sure how it came up at all. Obviously the number of HD a creature normally has has bearing on its CR, and I'm not saying that adding HD to an existing monster won't increase its CR, because it will. But there's no formula that ties HD directly to CR, especially since...
2) A shadowdancer's shadow's HP are not derived from its HD. There's a special rule that overrides the normal rules for determining hit points and says that this shadow derives its HP from its master's hit points. Thus, its HD are now irrelevant except for effects that care about the number of HD a target has (like sleep, colour spray, daze, etc.).
3) CR is a power level guide. The fact that advancing a monster the normal way involves adding HD and results in an increased CR doesn't mean that advancing monsters in other ways won't also increase their CR. This shadow is deriving its HP, BAB, and saves from its master instead of its HD, which is not standard. There's a precedent for it (the familiar, which does the same thing with HP, but also explicitly modifies the effective number of HD the creature has), but it's still not normal, and I'm afraid there are no official rules to cover its impact on CR because...
4) Technically it has no CR. It's an extension of its master's CR.
5) Unfortunately, there are also no rules for what happens to it if its master dies. As GM, you just have to decide that for yourself. And if your decision leaves it capable of still threatening your PCs, you'll have to determine if it's an appropriate challenge using your own custom CR calculations. They don't exist in the rules otherwise.
6) Finally, because there are no rules stating how its HD are affected by belonging to a shadowdancer, and because it's largely irrelevant anyway, there's no reason to assume the shadow has anything but the standard 3 HD.
Hope that helps!
They are now...
Vestrial, you're again pointing out the wrong thing. A 15th level Shadowdancer wouldn't be an appropriate challenge for a level 3 party. The shadow of the Shadowdancer is not an independent creature. It's part of the shadowdancer's class abilities. It's like dropping a familiar on a party, the familiar by itself doesn't have a CR as it's part of the wizard's class ability.This.
why is a lvl 15 shadowdancer attacking a lvl 3 party?
It's not like shadowdancer enhanced shadows wander around looking for low lvl parties to kill.And this.
I'm not the one ignoring actual rules. You're quoting rules for a regular Shadow, independent of the Shadowdancer's ability and trying to force those rules into applicability even though the Shadowdancer's ability SPECIFICALLY outlines its' abnormality.
I'm quoting the rules that apply to the original poster's question. No other rules matter, no matter how much you want to force them.