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Elemental Whispers Source Horror Adventures pg. 57 Element universal; Type utility (Su); Level 1; Burn 0

You form a friendship with a fragment of your element. The element speaks back to you empathically, like a familiar. Pick a type of creature usually allowed as a familiar when you gain this wild talent.

*You gain the Alertness feat and the special abilities granted by a familiar of that type. *

As a standard action, you can give the voice of the element the body of such a creature, using elemental matter of the appropriate element within 30 feet. As long as you concentrate, the familiar can take actions as a normal animal of its type, and it can move any distance away from you, though if it takes any damage or you cease concentrating, it returns to your mind. You lose Alertness while the familiar is manifested in this way. The familiar gains abilities as usual for a familiar of its type, though it never gains the ability to speak with animals of its kind.

+

This ability is taken pretty much for wysps for their bonus to damage since kineticists don't get too many. So what are the special abilities granted?

I posted this on reddit and was told that with this ability, you gain the wysps abilities meaning that you would give yourself extra damage. Is this true? If so, then it opens up a good deal of things

I haven't seen this elsewhere, but there is an interesting combination with the warlock vigilante: Arcane Striker talent + gloves of arcane striking.

Because the warlock's mystic bolts are explicitly allowed to benefit from the Arcane Strike feat (and, with the Arcane Striker talent, gain additional benefits at higher levels), a warlock wearing gloves of arcane striking can activate Arcane Strike (swift action) and full attack with mystic bolts (TWF + Rapid Shot), doing normal mystic bolt damage (touch attacks at 5th+ level) plus Arcane Strike bonus to the target of each bolt and also doing Arcane Strike damage to each creature adjacent to the target of each bolt with every hit. Also, since mystic bolts do acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage (depending on the element(s) chosen), the damage done to the adjacent targets is of the same element.

A warlock wearing gloves of arcane striking can fill much the same role as a bomber alchemist: less damage for each bomb/bolt, but not limited in uses per day. Too bad the mystic bolt range is limited to 30 ft.

I wonder if you can create multiple effects of gloves of striking redone as other items (robes, boots, hat, etc). If that's the case, it seems like the effect from the gloves would happen each time you arcane strike.

In 3.5 Channeling (Turn Resistance) effects stacked because they were an un-named bonus. Unless there is a rule explicitly stating they do not stack, they would as that would have been grand-fathered in to Pathfinder.

@mplindustries
It specifically sets the size to the current size plus 1.

That's what I just wrote... Literally. The current size is what it's being set to by the first modifier.

@Ssalarn
The robe isn't increasing size, it is increasing the base damage of a monk's unarmed strike. The monk's fists aren't getting bigger, they're becoming more effective. Effective level increases have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. There isn't even a corollary.

I only brought it up to show that I'm not making up virtual levels or size increases or damage.

"This is you making up how things work because that's how you want it to work. The belt says "when the wearer makes a charge attack, her Melee Weapons and Natural Weapons deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are." It's not checking some metaphysical property of the weapon's size it's checking THE WEAPON'S ACTUAL SIZE and allowing it to deal damage as though it were one size category larger than that."

I'm definitely not making things up. What you've stated is what I actually stated up above. The belt does indeed state that it goes off of the "base" size, but Impact does not. It increases it from whatever size it's seen as, virtually or otherwise. If it is considered large, then Impact will change it to huge. You actually agreed with me.

@Andy Ferguson
"Everyone is aware that, as it's currently worded, the impact quality doesn't appear to reference the size something actually is, right?"

I'm glad someone else has noticed this besides me...

@Ssalarn (2nd post)
"It still won't stack in the situation given since the other effects do reference actual size. Also the wording, even without the "actual size" text, still only allows the item to function as a size category larger, and would only set the weapon to one size above whatever it normally is. It's not a very relevant distinction no matter which way you look at it."

You actually already agreed with me, the belt is the only thing checking for actual size here. Impact does not, as Andy pointed out.

@Shar Tahl
"As if the weapon were one size category larger" is not the same thing.. You are correct that the weapon itself does not change, the damage it deals does, which is 2 virtual sizes higher.

"They can't be combined, be cause neither is actually increases the actual size category of the weapon, just the damage for a category up. The base premise of the trigger on the ability is "the weapon is large, shift it to huge" That never changes, so it can't be shifted two spots"

You are right that the actual size never changes, it doesn't need as it's boosted otherwise. First the belt, then the enchant. Belt->Large, Impact->Huge. In this case, it HAS to work like that as the belt only references the original size.

@STARGAZER_DRAGON
As many have stated the bonuses don't stack because both refer to the weapons ACTUAL size which specifically words that it does not include virtual size because it is referring to Actual size

Incorrect Star, Impact as shown by myself and Andy state that only the belt checks the original size, everything else goes off of whatever the current size is.

STAR's 2nd post:
The requirements of it's construction has no meaning as far as rules go, if that was the case then they would have "exactly" the same wording, which they don't.

If someone is still bent out of shape about this, please FAQ it.

The point he was making is that you are not adding 1+1. Each ability allows you to treat a weapon of a specific size as though it were one size larger. One size larger than medium will always be large, no matter how many times something allows you to treat your medium weapon as one size larger.

If something said "add one size category to the weapon's total effective size" then you might have something to go off of.
Also this business about "It's a virtual size increase so it doesn't follow the rules for size increases" is spun totally whole cloth from the depths of your mind, with no rules support anywhere.

There actually is a limit, the size cannot increase past colossal as that's the largest size there is (I guess Colossal+ and +++ exist as I remember seeing reference to it somewhere, maybe a optional rule).

To try and state this a different way, let's take the monk. The monk naturally deals more damage with his fists via his class. A 1st level medium monk deals 1d6 unarmed damage (STR not stated) because of his class, otherwise it would deal 1d3 non-lethal. Now give him a monks robe. The monks robe increases the size virtually 5 levels (proving that "this business about "It's a virtual size increase so it doesn't follow the rules for size increases" is spun totally whole cloth from the depths of your mind, with no rules support anywhere." does actually exist and has rules precedent). Likewise, there are also items that increase a paladins smite multiple levels virtually as well.

@mplindustries

From what I see when something checks the item, it says "Okay, lets look at the current size, if it size X then let's give it a increase of 1. That changes it to that current number. Then another bonus comes along and says "Let's look at the size and give a increase of 1 to it". So it looks at the current modified size and gives a +1 to it because it has already been changed.

@ Mergy

Impact:
dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger.

Belt of Thunderous Charging:
deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are.

These are the bolded parts pulled from HaraldKlaks post above. In the case of "They bring the value up to one higher than normal" as you state, only the Belt of Thunderous Charging is affected as "normal" would be medium bringing it up to large. When that happens, Impact would affect the item and give it an additional increase as it checks the largest current size, not the base.

Now, would the "base" be increased to Large after the potion of Enlarge Person was used? I would believe so, if not, then the belt of thunderous charge could not work with a enlarged character. If it does, then there would be 2 size increases on top of that, if not, then it would only be Impact that affects it.

@ Nefreet, Ssalarn

That is what I've been saying, the size increase is virtual, not physical, and thus stacks with everything, even itself. If it was physical, then I could see it going under the Enlarge Person ruling.

@ Shar Tahl

There's nothing you pointed out that I haven't addressed... I already know the size increase is virtual, that's why it stacks. The size increase is not redundant, it's additive.

@ HaraldKlak

Thank you for at least saying that it is equally valid, I appreciate it as everyone seems to be against the very idea that 2 miscellaneous bonuses do not stack.

@Charender

What you've quoted and bolded shows me nothing.. I already know that it's a virtual increase (as stated multiple times before). Virtual size increases stack while physical ones do not. If the sword was actually growing in size twice, then I would absolutely agree with you that the size increases do not stack (as per Enlarge Person), but they do not, they are growing virtually.

Ssalarn's 2nd post stating that size increases do not stack is correct... for physically changing your size. There is no rule stating that virtual size increases do not stack.

@Lab Rat

Apparently we have not gone over it enough because there's multiple people arguing against without providing ruling, just quoting text that states the weapon size is increased virtually and not physically. If someone cannot understand that there is a difference between physically and virtually, then please see the Enlarge Person ruling that Ssalarn pointed out. If said person still does not understand that they stack because they're virtual, then there is still a point to go over it.

@ Mergy

Thank you for adding simple math to this. I agree with you. If 1 + 1 = 2, does it or does it not equal 2?

My sources are the description of the effect of the spells themselves.

To re-iterate. These spells do NOT increase the ACTUAL size of the weapon (unlike enlarge person). They both do exactly the same thing, that is, cause the weapon to be treated as one size larger than it ACTUALLY is.

If the weapon starts as large and then gets enlarged to huge by enlarge person, it's actually huge.

Impact Weapon: wrote:

An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger.

The weapon is not actually made larger. It deals damage as if it were one category larger.

Belt of Thunderous Charging wrote:

... when the wearer makes a charge attack, her Melee Weapons and Natural Weapons deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are.

The weapons is not actually made larger. It deals damage as if it were one category larger than it actually is.

Now, if both powers didn't make reference to the actual size of the weapon, then they MIGHT stack depending on the wording. If they said something like "increase the damage the weapon does by one step" with no reference to the actual size of the weapon, then they might stack.

Doing "exactly the same thing" doesn't matter, what matters if is there a rule explicitly stating that size bonuses do not stack. If there is a ruling that you can link (saying that they both virtually increase the size by one is not a ruling), then I'd gladly accept it, if not, then the OP is correct, it would stack and he would gain all of those bonuses.

Unfortunately, your belt and your weapon property don't stack. If both cause the weapon to deal damage as if it was one size larger, the weapon deals damage as if it was one size larger.

Impact property and Belt of Thunderous Charging don't stack, because they both cause the weapon to be treated as one size bigger than it actually is, without actually changing the weapon size. So, your large Bastard Sword (that is currently Huge due to the potion) is treated as Gargantuan because of the impact property, but doesn't actually become gargantuan. Then when you charge with it, the belt causes it to be treated as one size larger than it actually is. One size larger than Huge is still gargantuan, even if the weapon is already treated as gargantuan.

Edit: blasted ninjas

Where does it say that two different items/enchants do not stack if they give the ability to have a weapon act as one size bigger? To my knowledge, there is no ruling that simply states "If you have two sources of +1 to size increase they do not stack". This is a miscellaneous bonus that does stack with everything if it is not specifically named so.

To re-iterate, please cite your sources.

Just one last excercise in being ridiculous with this.

Dire Tiger Fighter Pugilist via Leadership: CR 8
Levels: Fighter 12
Size: Large
AC: 17 (2 dex, +6 nat, -1 size)
HP: 171 (14d8+42+12d10) [average roll, max is: 274 hp]
BAB: 12/7/2
2 claws +36 (2d4+18 plus grab), bite +34 (2d6+18/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +34, 2d4+16)
Stats:
STR: 30, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 20, Ref: 15, Will 9
Feats: Weapon Focus (+1 atk, Claw), Weapon Specialization (+2 dam, Claw), Greater Weapon Focus (+1 atk), Greater Weapon Specialization (+2 dam, Claw)
Fighter Bonuses: Weapon Training 2 (+2 atk, +4 dam)
Attack Bonuses: Racial 18, BAB 12, WF 1, GWF 1, Weapon Training 2, Leveling 2 = 36
Damage Bonuses: STR 10, WS 2, GWS 2, Weapon Training 4

Attack Structure (Due to BAB, not sure if this is correct):
1) Claw +36, Claw +36 , Claw +36, Bite +32
2) Claw +31
3) Claw +26

Note: I'm only including the fighter only feats here as the other animals would be able to get all the same feats that are not fighter only otherwise.

vs

Dire Tiger Monk via Leadership: CR 8
Levels: Monk 12
Size: Large
AC: 20 (2 dex, +9 nat, -1 size)
HP: 159 (14d8+42+12d8) [average roll, max is: 250 hp]
BAB: 9/4
2 claws +36 (2d6+18 plus grab), bite +34 (2d6+18/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +36, 2d6+18)
Stats:
STR: 30, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 20, Ref: 19, Will 18
Monk Bonuses: Unarmed Base Damage 2d6, NA +3
Attack Bonuses: Racial 18, BAB 9, Leveling 2 = 29
Damage Bonuses: STR 10, Leveling 2, 2d6 (instead of 2d4)

Attack Structure (Due to BAB, not sure if this is correct):
1) Claw +29, Claw +29, Claw +26, Bite +29
2) Claw +21

Flurry
1) Claw +33, Claw +33, Claw +28, Claw +28, Claw +24

Note: I'm almost positive I have something wrong posted in this one. It's interesting to note that Fighter is stronger than Monk here.

vs

Dire Tiger with the Animal Companion bonuses at 20:

Dire Tiger: CR 8, advanced to 20 via AC Table
Size: Large
AC: 32 (6 dex, +18 nat, -1 size)
HP: 176 (maxed out), HD:16d8
2 claws +30 (2d4+12 plus grab), bite +30 (2d6+12/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +30, 2d4+12)
Stats:
STR: 33, DEX: 21, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 22, Ref: 11, Will 10

Still slow. Gunslinger's have high Dex and class-based initiative boosts, and all of their most common builds grab at least the Reactionary trait to widen the gap. A Pistolero doesn't have to catch him sleeping, they just have to use their high DEX to Sneak in close, then use their superior initiative to unload with their 14 attacks dealing at least 1d8+8+3d6 (probably more) before the dragon moves. Given that he's targeting an AC of 8, he'll only miss with a natural 1 on anything other than his very last attacks with either hand, which he'll still need a below average roll to miss with. Not that it will matter since the dragon died 3 attacks before we ever got to that point.

Again, that's not really pertinent to the conversation at hand, but it's definitely power creep as it wasn't something you could do before UC hit shelves.

I can see the damage/shot being dealt, that's easy enough and it's also easy enough to get more than that per shot, but what mystifies me about this post is the 14 attacks/full attack action that you said the gunslinger gets.. At 11th level, you get 3, where do the other 11 come from?

Base: 3
Greater TWF grants: 3
Haste: 1
Rapid Shot: 1
2 Double Barreled Pistols: Shots Fired 8x2 = 16

Guess I blew past 14. At this level, you can get enchantments on your pistols so you won't ever run out of ammo or misfire. Looks legit, I think this guy could easily kill an adult dragon, although the dragon might get an attack due to the variable of dice rolls.

Ghoran (I think that's their name, from Inner Sea), the plant people. It's a fantastic way to get blanket immunities right from the start. Mix with Alchemist (Everything you do is "All Natural" haha) to get a couple more. Make your own clones? NP! Make a simulcrum/Rip your own skin off (forgot the name of the ability) of yourself with the Alchemist, have it plant a seed of itself and in 2d6 days you have another way to get a cloned character. The only downside is having to be in the sun for a bit every day or take con damage.

Also, any race that gets burrow/earth glide (make your own), just too fantastic of a ability.

Might just have to make my own plant/construct race that can burrow and doesn't need the sun.

I thought of a bit more, and used up a bunch of the customization space to push the damage a bit higher… I also implemented Pirate's suggestion for the DPR calc's.

Hannah of the Harsh Words V2.0:

A sneak, a face and a glass cannon at the same time.
7th level Bard (Word Striker)/ 3ed Level Rogue halfling
Ability Scores:
STR: 8 (-1) (10 base, -2 racial)
DEX: 16 (+3) (13 base, +2 racial + 1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Headband)
Hit dice: 10d8 +20 (Con) + 7 (Favored Class) (8+4.5*9+20 +7= 75)
Saving Throws:
Fort +9 = +2(bard) +1(rogue) + 2(CON) + 2(Resistance) + 1(Competence) + 1(Racial)
Reflex +15 = +5(bard) +3(rogue) + 3(DEX) + 2(Resistance) + 1(Competence) + 1(Racial)
Will +9 = +5(bard) +1(rogue) -1(WIS) + 2(Resistance) + 1(Competence) + 1(Racial)
Armor Class: 24 (= 10 + 6 (Chain Shirt) +4 (Shield) +3 (Dex) + 1 (small))
Class Abilities:
Cantrips (Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestigidation, Mending, Mage Hand, Sift)
Spells of up to 3ed level (6/5/2 per day)
(Ear Piercing Scream, Expiditious Retreat, Grease, Vanish, Anticipate Peril)
(Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Gallant Inspiration)
(Haste, Confusion)
Bardic Knowledge
Performance: (Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire courage, Wordstrike, Weird Words) (4+6(Cha)+2*6 + 6(extra performance) = 28 rounds).
2 Versatile Performances (Comedy: Bluff & Intimidate . Oratory: Diplomacy & Sense Motive)
Well Versed
Lore Master (1/day)
Sneak Attack (+2d6)
Trap Sense+1
Trap Finding
Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth?)
BAB: +7
Racial Traits:
Small, Slow Speed, Fearless, Halfling Luck, Keen Senses, Swift as Shadows (alternate, APG), Halfling Weapon Familiarity
Traits:
Noble Born: Surtova (KPG) (+2 damage vs. Flat-Footed opponents)
Reactionay (+2 on initiative)
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Extra Performance
Skill Focus (Stealth)
Eldritch Heritage (Umbral : Cloak of Shadows)
Ability Focus (Weird Words)
Skills:
Stealth(10 Ranks, +3 Trained, +3 Dex, +6 SF, +4 Small+ Cloak of Shadows, assorted invisibility spells)
Perception, UMD, Perform (Dance), Perform (Oratory), Disable Device, Perform (Comedy),
All Knowledges (1 rank)
Gear (62,000gp)
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4 (16,000 gp)
+2 mithral chain shirt (5,100 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (+1 Competence to all saves) (4000 gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Darkwood Heavy Wooden Shield +2 (4,257 gp)
Sniper Googles (20,000 gp)
55357 used, 6000 or so for customizing…
I’d suggest a +2 to CON …

Precast Buffs: Heroism
Hannah relies on the interpretation that Weird words can dump multiple attacks on a target, if the user chooses.
Attacks:
Weird Words – 7 attacks, 1d8+6(Cha)+1(PBS), ranged touch attack at +14 (7 Bab + 3 Dex + 1 PBS +2 Heroism + 1 Small), fort save (DC 21) for 1/2 dmg
Hannah's preferred attack mode is to sneak up on something using all that stealth she's got...and Wierd words them for 7 touch attacks vs flat footed touch ac at +13 to hit.
Each attack does 1d8+7 fort save for 1/2 + 2d6 sneak +2 for flat footed +4 for sniper googles.
Assuming a high fort save (+13), the 1d8+7 becomes = ((11.5*7)+(5.75*13))/20 = 7.7625
Assuming a low fort save (+9), the 1d8+7 becomes = ((11.5*11)+(5.75*9))/20 = 8.9125
DPAttack = h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)= 0.95*(d+13)+0.95*0.05*(1*d) = 20.0931 or 21.2402
h = 0.95
d = 7.7625 or 8.9125
s = 13
t = 0.05
f = .95
c = 1
b = 0
r = 0
DPR = 7 * DPA = 140.6517 or 148.6815 respectively

Without sneaking up:
DPR = 54.3375 or 62.3875 respectively

Hi Pad300, I love this build. Very nicely done. However, I inputed your full calculation into excel and it seems you calculated incorrectly.. I did not change anything from your original numbers here and got 26.5 damage for a single attack on average or 22.11125 using the formula provided.

The formula should look like so: (0.95*(15.5+7)+0.95*0.05*(1*15.5) as the damage without sneak attack is 15.5 via 1d8+6+2+1+2 (word damage, CHA, trait, goggles, PSB, Heroism and SA) [obviously this is without the SA damage included as it is the base].

I'll post my excel sheet below. It "should" be right as I used Anydice.com for the averages and excel for the formula.

Bard lvl - SA - Dam - avg single dam - avg full dam - dpr forumla/round #'s - with # of att
7 - 2d6 - 7d8+6+2+4+1+2+2d6 - 26.5 - 185.5 - 22.11125 - 154.77875 - Formula: (0.95*(15.5+7)+0.95*0.05*(1*15.5) - hannah's
8 - 1d6 - 8d8+6+2+2+1+2+1d6 - 23 - 184 - 18.78625 - 150.29 - Formula: (0.95*(15.5+3.5)+0.95*0.05*(1*15.5)
9 - 1d6 - 9d8+6+2+2+1+2+1d6 - 23 - 207 - 18.78625 - 169.07625 - Formula: (0.95*(15.5+3.5)+0.95*0.05*(1*15.5)
10 - 0 - 10d8+6+2+1+2 - 15.5 - 155 - 15.46125 - 154.6125 - Formula: (0.95*(15.5)+0.95*0.05*(1*15.5)

If this list is correct (I believe it is), then going Bard 9/Rogue 1 will yield the most dpr coming in at 169. Surprisingly, a 10th level bard comes close to the dps of a Rogue 3/Bard 7 with the extra attacks (154.7 vs. 154.6). Please let me know if anything is wrong, I hope this helps!

But see being underwater doesn't kill you.

It is not breathing that kills people underwater: and he could breath underwater... why was he dead?

As someone else said in this thread, suction from a ship "can" be caused due to the chaotic nature of the water. Combine this with what I imagine would be being plastered to the ceiling of the captains quarters as the ship plunged downward and the pressure of the water itself. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information on how fast it would sink.

The closest I could find off hand of a wooden frigate is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_six_frigates_of_the_United_States_Nav y where it lists this information of the USS Constellation:

Class & type: 44-gun frigate
Tonnage: 1,576
Displacement: 2,200 tons
Length: 204 ft (62 m) (length overall);
175 ft (53 m) at waterline
Beam: 43 ft 6 in (13.26 m)
Draft: 21 ft (6.4 m) forward
23 ft (7.0 m) aft
Depth of hold: 14 ft 3 in (4.34 m)
Complement: 450 officers and enlisted, including 55 Marines and 30 boys[

Granted, this was in 1794 (approx) and they had 44 metal cannons. I doubt your frigate had these guns but this should give everyone a better idea of what it was like.

Hopefully this helps a little.

This makes me want to play a Summoner with the Shadow Caller Archetype 5/Shadow Dancer 3/Summoner 12. 1 fleet of shadows, coming right up! The idea that your eidolon is your shadow along with the shadow you get from the Shadow Dancer PrC sounds like it could be pretty fun.

Ed-Zero >>

I don't have a build handy at the moment, but it was fairly straightforward Blue Dragon based Sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline. I went caster straight through with Sorcerer 5/DD 10/Pld 1 by the time the game ended, but I have heard of all forms of variance to this, and you'll get nearly the same results.

You lose your normal primary Claw, Claw, Bite when transformed. Typical rules of any transmutation (polymorph) lay this out, so the base number of attacks is 6. However, it is an arcane caster, and you should have NO problem getting Haste. That's why I stated 7 attacks.

Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal can earn you a ton of extra strength as well as additional damage dice to your claws. Stack this with Robe of Arcane Heritage for maximum effect. Choosing Strength Belts and Strength as a primary stat to receive bonuses at level gains, I ended with about ~40 Strength while transformed. With an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, I recall having an estimated +30 on my primary attacks before really buffing or flanking.

Now, the fun part is choosing Spell Perfection: Shocking Grasp. This, stacked alongside Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp, allows you to cast the Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp as a swift level 3 spell.

As for the damage, you forget that Sorcerer's have Bloodline Arcana, which grants +1 damage on every damage die with the dragon's type. This means 10d6+10 is the actual results of an Intensified Shocking Grasp, so Empowered that equals ~67 as the mean average.

That's beautiful. Definitely something that I would play. Thanks for going more in depth with it, I appreciate it. :)

I don't know about Ranger or Barbarian, but I've personally outdone that damage output before with a natural attacking Dragon Disciple.

Assuming all of your attacks hit, you were averaging about 174 damage. It's not bad, in fact I'd happily welcome this party member, but I know it can get higher.

At level 16, my natural attacking Dragon Disciple had a mean average damage over 400. Form of the Dragon giving you 7 natural attacks certainly changes the game. Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp when you get +1 damage for electricity also is a nice +67 damage bonus. Throw in some Paladin levels; Smite will make you happy as well when you attack 7 times.

Do you have a build of this? It's something I'd like to see.

Only asking because Form of the Dragon I gives 5 attacks, FotD II & III both give 6. You obviously gain the additional bite attack from Dragon's Bite along with his 2 claw attacks from the Draconic Bloodline Power. Are you counting these as well as Dragon Form II (Highest Dragon Disciple goes sadly), if so, it would be 6(Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail)+3(Bite, Claw, Claw)=9. Seems like they would stack as they are all primary attacks.

The Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp you mentioned deals (5d6+5d6(Intesified)+5d6(Empowered) 15d6 averaging 52 damage for the first attack.

Just from what you mentioned, it's a pretty good build. One that I wouldn't mind trying out.

Throw on a monks robe, Lead Blades and Strong Jaws and you'll do colossal damage with your 9 attacks (I believe).

Does this allow you to add templates onto monsters? Can you add multiple templates or multiple of same (say Advanced or Young)? One thing I've really been wanting is a program that houses all of the templates on the pfsrd so I can add them automatically, not manually (One of my gripes with Kyle Olson's Combat Manager).

One thing that would be handy is the inclusion of templates. I can't check the site right now but from what people have said, it's sounding pretty good. I will definitely check it out later.

I invite you to take a look at the Forgotten Realms, where the guiding rule of your PC is that you aren't special and there are a million other people who can do your job better than you can, and the only reason problems really happen is that Elminster doesn't do diddly

your PC choked to death on a chicken bone? Must have been a Mythic Chicken!

fantastic and hilarious quotes! :D

You can get the same effect with making Deadly Juggernaut a continuous item.

The shadow sorceror should give a +1% bonus every level, not just a 20% bonus at 20th level, comes in far too late in my opinion.

One aspect of the Zen Archer that people seem to not be taking advantage of is their Ki Arrows ability. This allows them to key their arrow damage to equal their unarmed damage. Porpertine did it here with his excellent build.

The monk has access to spells that the fighter simply does not because of being able to link it to their unarmed damage.

Monks Robe - Sets damage to 2d10
Strong Jaws - 2 size increases
Lead Blades - 1 size increase
Improved Natural Attack - 1 size increase (I would switch it for dodge at 7th and take out improved initiative at 1 for dodge)
= 4 size increases

Damage extrapolation: (This follows the small/large unarmed table)
Medium (2d10)->Large (4d8)->Huge (6d8)->Gargantuan (8d8)->Colossal (10d10)

The fighter simply cannot match this damage output. He cannot get access to Strong Jaws, Lead Blades or INA as all of these are keying off of the monks unarmed damage. The monk out damages the fighter, for at least 21 rounds/day, which nothing will survive past the first as:

Bow ki damage deadly vital strike +24 (2d10+4d10+18 & ditto)
Bow ki damage deadly flurry haste +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17 (2d10+18)

becomes

Bow ki damage deadly vital strike +24 (10d10+4d10+18 & ditto)
Bow ki damage deadly flurry haste +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17 (10d10+18)

Average damage/shot for 10d10+4d10+18: 95
Average damage/shot for 10d10+18: 73x7 shots = 511 damage on full attack

Your monk fists can be two-handed weapons, you just have to hold the fist of the other hand that you're punching with.. :D

For a little more clarification, my character is a strength based mace and tower shield Aasimar Paladin (with no Archetypes as most of the ones I would want get rid of Divine Grace which is pretty nice to have).

So far, the GM has put us in forested, town and dungeon combat. All areas have had space to accommodate for a mount and I believe future combats would as well. The GM has stated before that this could easily run into higher levels (15+).

Just like the title says, which one do you think is better? I'm going to list a couple pros and cons of each.

Weapon:
Pros:
-Don't have to pay for Enchantments
-Can choose which enchantments you want when the time comes
-The enhancement will last for the duration of the fight no matter what, even at 5th level (aka: 5 minutes)
-Can still improve your weapon independently with permanent enchantments (up to a +5)

Cons:
-Weapon Enchantments are not active all the time and need a standard action to activate
-Effects can expire
-Once called, it is active for the full duration and unless you run into another fight right away, you lose the effects on the next fight.
-Can not bypass +5 bonus if you have a permanent enchantment
-Does not improve action economy
-Does not grant flanking bonus
-Does not grant additional forms of movement

Mount:
Pros:
-Improve your action economy as it can attack on its own
-Can improve your mount with barding, wonderous items and enchantments
-Can grant additional forms of movement not previously available (teleportation [blink dog for a small character], burrowing [bullete], flying [pegasus or hippogriff]
-Grants bonus to flanking if in position
-Mount is always there with you in combat

Cons:
-Have to spend some upkeep money if your GM makes you keep track of those things (ex: feed, grooming, oil for barding, etc)
-If your mount is Large, most towns will not like having a creature that big walk through it
-Can be hard to manuever through a dungeon with a Large creature, especially with low ceilings or tight corridors.
-Do not get free weapon enchantments whenever you want

In my opinion, the mount is the clear winner as the bonuses given clearly outweigh the semi-spontaneous standard action ability of the weapon enchantment.

So what do you think? Which one wins out?

Threads like this are why my GM looks like he's sucking on a lemon everytime my Vivisectionist does something.

Well, that and all the free lemons.

This response made my day as it has been a tough one. Thanks Lamontius :)

Here's a level 12 build from Ohaku that gives 13 attacks.. here

human barbarian 9/vivisectionist 2/barbarian 1

Feats
1st Racial Heritage (kobold)
1st Tail Terror
3rd Two-Weapon Fighting
5th Multiattack (claws, bite, and tail by this point)
7th Eldritch Claws
9th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11th Extra Discovery

Barbarian Rage Powers
2nd lesser beast totem
4th animal fury
6th beast totem
8th reckless abandon
10th (12th) greater beast totem

Alchemist Discoveries
2nd (11th) vestigial arm
Feat (11th) vestigial arm

2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail, 2 hooves, 2 tentacles, plus 5 iterative attacks, makes 13. You'll probably have a better chance to hit to boot (although you're missing out on cold iron with the natural attacks, and the 60 ft' move speed).

Anyway, bleah. Outstanding questions:

1. Is there any way to qualify for (and take) Angelic Wings right at 10th level? Then you could grab Metallic Wings at 11th.
2. Is there any way to gain an alchemist discovery with only one level of alchemist? If you could do that, then you could sneak in a level of fighter in this last build for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

Wow, I've never seen those rules before. That is pretty interesting. It does make sense for the class to best fit a animal would be the fighter. Thank you for showing me this, I appreciate it :) (Doubt I'll ever get to use it, but it's still interesting)

Theoretically? Yes, that would be pretty close to equal to a CR 4 or "4.5" creature, so yes. However, an animal companion is pretty much always going to backed up by a full spellcaster, so putting the poor tiger all by himself against a "CR-appropriate" group wouldn't really be fair to the tiger either.

I'm sorry I sounded harsh before, but it's really annoying when someone seemingly completely ignores what you post when you're trying very hard to answer their question. It's like when someone asks you to edit their paper, you spend several hours with the red pen fixing errors, then a week later they ask you to edit their final revision and you realize that they NEVER LOOKED AT YOUR OLD EDITS. Drives me bonkers.

Again, I apologize for sounding mean.

Yeah, get what you're saying. Just thought it'd be fun to analyze the differences between the companion and actual animal.

I'm fairly sure there aren't a great many people that like being ignored hehe. No worries :)

you can have a dire tiger cohort via the leadership feat. it counts as a level 8 cohort on it's own, and you can give it class levels to make it tougher, bump it's int to 3 so it can understand you, and every 3 class levels gives it an additional class level, up until the 4th additional level.

essentially, the ECL 18 dire tiger cohort to a 20th level character would have 13 class levels for a total of 29 hit die. which could be spent on fighter levels to improve it's natural weapons. and give it a bab of +25. it also has the gear of an 18th level NPC. it could sacrifice a level for +4 to all stats and +2 natural armor. a decent tradeoff for this beast.

This is interesting, can you link the section of rules that allow you to give an animal class levels or are you going off of the fact that if it gains a level then it's able to acquire a class if it qualifies (which it would or should for fighter) or am I missing something and it has to do with some interaction between the cohort feat and some rules about leveling? Either way, I am interested in this as I think the levels of the animal would progress like it would for a character, every level = 1 level instead of every 3 levels = 1 level.

I wish I had a magic button that forced people to READ THE RESPONSES TO THEIR POSTS BEFORE THEY POST MORE INCORRECT PRATTLE.

Seriously, read what I wrote up above. A CR 8 Dire Tiger is meant to be powerful enough to be a challenge for FOUR LEVEL 8 ADVENTURERS! If each of those adventurers was a Druid with a Tiger companion, and they were REMOTELY as powerful as the dire tiger, how would that be a fair fight?!?

Believe me, I understand what you're saying. Now do you think a level 8 AC could take on a party of 4? If not, then they are unequal. No need for you to be harsh and try and rub it in my face. I'm only pointing out the differences. Who said fights are supposed to fair anyways?

Ed, it's not a generous GM who'll allow this, it's a short sighted one.

The animal companions are well balanced as a class feature. They are meant to provide support combat options as another melee frontliner of sorts.

If you're playing a druid who runs a tiger animal companion then you're obviously planning on using it in combat. Most likely this means that you've cast buff spells on the thing for just such purposes (magic fang, barkskin etc) So when you run your comparison, you should give the AC those buffs. That's a legal AC build vs a Legal creature at level 8.

Also, you've failed to grasp that the dire tiger is only available to a druid at level 11 if he/she can manage to get one as a cub and train. Once again, you need to compare the two animals at the time the druid can legally obtain the dire tiger (so CR8 for teh dire tiger vs level 11 Animal companion.) This time build the companion with the feats it's entitled to (such as the healing one available to animals - ungodded healing or something like that).

The Dire tiger is a combatant against 4 players of level 8.

If you're DM allows a druid to take it as an animal companion at level 8, he is effectively giving the druid 4 times more power than the other players.

Balance is very important, and whishsing to uber your character needs to be weighed agains that.

cheers

Wrath, I don't disagree with you that feats and armor and buffs exist for the animals. If you could list where it says that you can get a dire tiger as a animal companion then I would love to see it, otherwise it would be a normal tiger/dire tiger without being able to be linked to the table. Any character can effectively do that (raise a animal from a cub to have it be loyal to him), I'm just looking at AC table. If you didn't see, I compared the CR 8 dire tiger to a fully leveled AC of 20 and the stats were comparable, there is no point in doing a DT of 8 vs a AC of 11 if the level 20 AC has comparable stats. I specifically did not include feats as the DT would be entitled to them as well so that is an even playing field.

Now then, it's not like I don't grasp that this would be overpowered or a lot of fun or both, as you stated, it's multiple times more powerful to have a DT AC than either one seperately. It was an observation of why it pales in comparison so poorly. No harm, no foul.

2 points

1: You're comparing a single class feature to a CR that's supposed to challenge 4 players of equal level.

2: You do realize that you can put equipment on an AC, right? Or buff them? Like, say...Barding? Put a +5 Mithril Chainshirt barding on the AC (we'll stay cheap and not add special qualities to the armor) and cast Greater Magic Fang on our buddy here and it pretty much equals out for the most part.

Alternatively, the AC's owner does anything alongside the AC and, by virtue of action economy, wrecks the regular animal's day.

1. Already answered above.

2. Oh yes, I realize that, but you could do the same for both if so needed as with what Wrath stated (raising it up from a cub as a pet instead of an animal companion).

To all the naysayers and dream slayers, let us then compare a level 8 Tiger AC to a Dire Tiger since the AC is "alreadly evolved".. I wasn't counting rake before so let's do that.

Dire Tiger: CR 8
Size: Large
AC: 17 (2 dex, +6 nat, -1 size)
HP: 105 (14d8+42) [average roll, max is: 154 hp]
2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +18, 2d4+8)
Stats:
STR: 27, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 12, Ref: 11, Will 5

AC: Level 8
Size: Large
AC: 16 (10 base, 4 natural, 3 dex, -1 size)
HP: 88 (maxed out), HD:7d8
2 claws +5(BAB)+6(Str)=+11 (1d6+6 plus grab), Bite +5 (1d8+6 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +11, 1d6+6)
Stats:
STR: 23, DEX: 17, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 16, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 5, Ref: 5, Will 2

DT has 1 more AC, 17 more hp (on average compared to the AC's max HP, otherwise it would be 66 more hp, is stronger, little less dex, far better saves..

Let's see the AC at 20 then:
AC: Level 20
Size: Large
AC: 24 (10 base, 12 natural, 3 dex, -1 size)
HP: 176 (maxed out), HD:16d8
2 claws +12(BAB)+8(Str)=+20 (1d6+8 plus grab), Bite +20 (1d8+8 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +20, 1d6+8)
Stats:
STR: 26, DEX: 20, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 16, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 10, Ref: 10, Will 5

Okay, now the AC is almost comparable to the CR 8 Dire Tiger. It has 7 more AC, so that's cool. Better attacks and does a bit less damage and a little worse saves.. So yeah, it looks like it takes a level 20 Tiger AC to be comparable to the CR 8 Dire Tiger...

For one final examination just for fun of what the Dire Tiger would look like with the Animal Companion bonuses at 20:

Dire Tiger: CR 8, advanced to 20 via AC Table
Size: Large
AC: 32 (6 dex, +18 nat, -1 size)
HP: 176 (maxed out), HD:16d8
2 claws +30 (2d4+12 plus grab), bite +30 (2d6+12/19-20 plus grab)
Rake: (2 claws, +30, 2d4+12)
Stats:
STR: 33, DEX: 21, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 22, Ref: 11, Will 10

I realize that unless your GM is generous, the Animal Companion Dire Tiger will never actually happen but it's a nice thought *sniff*, although it really seems like it should as a CR 8 creature has roughly the same stats as a leveled AC..

Let's take the tiger, everybodies favorite pouncing machine..

Animal: CR 4
AC 14
HP 45 (6d8+18)
2 claws +10 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab)
Stats:
STR: 23, DEX: 15, CON: 17, INT: 2, WIS: 12, CHA 6
Saves: Fort: 8, Ref: 7, Will 3

Animal Companion: Level 4
AC 13
HD d8
HP 36 (maxed out)
2 claws +3(BAB)+2(Str)=+5 (1d4+2), Bite +5 (1d6+2)
Stats:
STR: 14, DEX: 18, CON: 13, INT: 2, WIS: 16, CHA 10
Saves: Fort: 4, Ref: 1, Will: 4

As you can see, who would take the AC Tiger over the actual animal? The stats are generally worse, worse saves, worse strength, better dex, con, same int, better wis and cha. Even maxed out HP can't rival the average of the tiger.

Why is it sooo much weaker? Balance? Full caster plus an animal that actually does what it's supposed to? I guess so...

Just seems like it's better to try and adopt a tiger as a pet instead of having a stuffed animal as an animal companion. If your GM will let you have an actual tiger rather than the simple tiger then congratulations!

I guess no one remembers when the designers of 3.5 answered the ring of true strike jibba jabba going on here saying that it would cost 780,000 gold for a ring of continuous true strike.

Crazy larpers.. get out of my neighborhood.

Earth elementals tend to be nothing more than big beefy slobberknockers.

This made me laugh :D Great thread. This information not only comes in handy for use with NPC's but also those with animal companions and mounts!

I also have a Halfling Knife master who at 12 auto-succeeds on disarms even on a 1, auto sneak attacks with tumblethru underfoot. The disarm on a 1 works because it becomes a skill check not a CMB so a 1 will even win per RAW provided it beats the CMD.

(altho i understand that most DMs will think thats cheezy and houserule it, myself included probably.)

This is a character I'd like to see..

And then there was the challenge combats to advance in level! You see, there were only a set number of higher level monks in a specific region. And when you reached that level (8th), you didn't automatically become 8th level just because you had the XP; no, you had to track down one of the current 8th level monks (of which there were 3), challenge him, and defeat him in single combat . . . success means you become 8th level, failure means you drop all the way back to the minimum XP for 7th level . . . if you survived, that is.

And you had to do this for every single level above 8th (only a single monk of each level 9th and up), until you reached the pinnacle of the monk class: the Grand Master of Flowers. And of course, once you earned your position, you had to fight off those who wanted to take it from you.

This was amazing. Yeah, it kinda sucked for the player because they didn't get to level immediately but it actually showed character progression. Also, if I remember right, it wasn't just for Monks, as druids had to go all over the world to find and fight the guys in their own grove too. Loved this and want to try doing something like this in the future but not sure of the reception that it will get

Dip 2 ranger for natural weapon style and get aspect of the beast for claws. Go lesser fiend totem instead of beast for gore attack. Drop tentacle discovery and grab a couple vestigial arms and feral mutagen. I think it his should bump you up to bite, claw x4, wing x2, gore, tail for a total of 9. If vestigial arms are like tentacle and won't allow you to attack despite having 4 sets of claws with your mutagen, then drop the arms and ranger levels. Take feral mutagen for easy bite/claw x2. Toss in that tentacle cloak, and I think you could have upwards of 11 attacks per round.

Tentacle cloak? Sounds awesome

I have a player in a game right now who has a blackblade and it recently just came to "life" and gained it's ego and name.. Along with that are some goals of it's own but i'm still trying to iron those out.

What are some of your intelligent weapon/artifact goals?

World Domination? Genocide of a certain subtype? Bring in all comers!

Vampiric Animal Companion feat

What feat is this?

One thing I'd like to see is all of the templates on the PFSRD when opening the monster advancer instead of just a couple or manually adding them to the creature itself. I talked to you before Kyle and you were thinking about doing it. If this could be done, it would save me sooo much time.

My longest lived character ever ( I played him for over 6 years) was Fergus the Justifier, who started out as a paladin, and ended his career as a 92nd level LN Fighter (old 1e ruleset).

I'd just like to commend you on playing for 6 years and making it up to 92nd level, that's an incredible feat, especially in 1st ed.

Dasrak wrote:

Final call is up to the GM. My general rule of thumb is that if that specific species is readily available for purchase as a trained riding animal, then it's okay as a paladin mount. If the local city has a hippogryph stable, then I'm cool with the paladin having a hippogryph mount. If hippogryphs are rare beasts that few can tame and are you can't acquire one with mere gold, then it's probably not okay for the paladin to have one.

Sentient mounts are a different kettle of fish altogether.

Not when it comes to Paladin bonded mounts. They have an INT of 6, so they are definitely sentient, even if it's a giant ant that has no INT, it will gain 6 INT as a base as soon as it's designated as the paladins mount.

Ed-Zero wrote:

It's responses like this that are not helpful in the least.. Have you looked at the Paladin Mount ability? There is no list of creatures to take, which is why I'm posting this.. In the case where I am the GM, it's still necessary for me to know what's acceptable at what level.

It's your lack of ability to read that makes you an assmonkey...

This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable.

It's right there... Under Paladin: Divine Bond (Sp)

If you ask a question. Don't be an ass when you get an answer.

Sigh... it's not explicitly called out in there that that's ALL you can have. I may be an assmonkey but you would have to answer why paladins are running around with griffins or unicorns as mounts... cause they aren't listed in the list...

Just found that this will be coming in January Animal Archive, till then I'd still like to hear what others have played!

Unless you take a cohort thru leadership, you're pretty well limited to Either the critters it specifically states in the Paladin Mount entry OR to whatever your GM allows.

It's responses like this that are not helpful in the least.. Have you looked at the Paladin Mount ability? There is no list of creatures to take, which is why I'm posting this.. In the case where I am the GM, it's still necessary for me to know what's acceptable at what level.

Since I am playing a paladin in one game and have a paladin in another game I'm gm'ing, I'd like to know what exactly I'd be able to take. Is it anything that's remotely good or neutral? Anything that has legs or can fly? How general is it? How about an evil monster given the celestial template saying that the power of good can over come evil?

Stuff I've looked at:
-Druid list of animal companions since the mount goes off of that table but that was barely helpful.
-Monster Cohort list, this is helpful if only because it's a simple table that says the monsters name and the level that they are available.
-The Empyreal Knight paladin archetype has the Summon Monster I-IX list to pull creatures from and that's also helpful

Is that pretty much it besides looking through every single animal?

As an aside, if you've ever played a paladin, what have you had for a mount? I'd love to know!

for what it's worth, the original intent was to give Celestial language for free. But Paizo made it replace Divine Grace in development.

This is the one thing that's making me not want this archetype. I have to give up Divine Grace, Channeling AND Lay on Hands? That's a bit ridiculous since there's no way to gain any of those back (as far as I know).

There are a couple of cool archons and angels for sure, but I wonder if I would be able to add a celestial template to anything to make it a celestial creature (i'm guessing the simple template would have to do so I couldn't find the regular one).

Soo, because of all this, I'm seriously looking at just keeping the mount that the paladin gets ONLY because it goes off of the Druid's animal companion table.. now if there's anything a pally can do to buff that (like the boon companion feat, not sure that works) then I'd love to know.

Centaurs are monstrous humanoids :/

Actually, looking at it, the worst thing you give up is Divine Grace.. is there another way to get that back?

hahahahahaha. Timing couldn't have been better.

Check out the Empyreal Knight paladin archetype to see what they did. And maybe just steal that.

Also, the paladin's mount is awesome.

That is an amazing coincidence haha. The paladin's mount is only awesome because it goes off of the druid animal companion table.

I have not seen the empyreal knight before. That is a pretty amazing archetype, the only downside is that you give up channeling and lay on hands.. hmm, wonder if there's a way to get those back easy?