Pathfinder RPG and Paizo in the Face of 5E

[Sebastian]

Gary Teter wrote:

Keep in mind that neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast are likely to post in this thread any secret future plans, so everything posted in here is going to be pure speculation, based on pure speculation.

Isn't that the function of the Overheard at the Paizo office thread? Surely that is a cleverly designed spoiler delivery system. It's only a matter of time before someone overhears something relevant and posts it there (Erik: "Gosh, that 5e sure is awesome, thank goodness the new Pathfinder Snacky Cakes line is coming out in late 2012").

[KestlerGunner]

IMHO, Pathfinder has effectively blocked WOTC from ever being able to 'go back' to what D&D was back in 2005. Any attempt by WOTC top 'go back' will be an exercise in futility, because Pathfinder has taken that material, has fixed the inherent bugs with that system, and then has built 3 yrs + of material to support it and instil new campaigns and new gamer groups.

If WOTC 'go back', they will be accused by 4E fans and Pathfinder fans alike of making a "Pathfinder clone" product. Albeit with more tieflings and dragon men and some IP rights.

This will force them to create an all new tabletop roleplaying system entirely. That course of action is fraught with risk and is a hell of a job.

[Lilith]

Sebastian wrote:

Isn't that the function of the Overheard at the Paizo office thread? Surely that is a cleverly designed spoiler delivery system. It's only a matter of time before someone overhears something relevant and posts it there (Erik: "Gosh, that 5e sure is awesome, thank goodness the new Pathfinder Snacky Cakes line is coming out in late 2012").

...Perhaps I should keep my recipe book safely locked away.

[Chris Self]

Sebastian wrote:

Isn't that the function of the Overheard at the Paizo office thread? Surely that is a cleverly designed spoiler delivery system. It's only a matter of time before someone overhears something relevant and posts it there (Erik: "Gosh, that 5e sure is awesome, thank goodness the new Pathfinder Snacky Cakes line is coming out in late 2012").

[REDACTED]

[Cosmo]

Sebastian wrote:

Gary Teter wrote:

Keep in mind that neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast are likely to post in this thread any secret future plans, so everything posted in here is going to be pure speculation, based on pure speculation.

Isn't that the function of the Overheard at the Paizo office thread? Surely that is a cleverly designed spoiler delivery system. It's only a matter of time before someone overhears something relevant and posts it there (Erik: "Gosh, that 5e sure is awesome, thank goodness the new Pathfinder Snacky Cakes line is coming out in late 2012").

SPOILERS!

[Jason S]

Forget Wizards. They just waste our money by rewriting the core rules every 3-5 years. I don't need that. Every 10 years, ok, not every 5 years.

Paizo actually produces products that gamers can use, in every variation. They're gamers making products for gamers. It works. I like almost everything they do.

Making 5E like 3.X would be the worst thing Wizards could do ATM. They'll alienate and piss off the 4E crowd, who were very loyal to them, and they'd only gain a small portion of PFRPG players. So basically, they'd cut their fan base yet again. They might as well sell the rights to the D&D brand for $1 if they're going to do this.

Btw, I don't like any of the suggested ideas. I say Paizo should just stay the course, they're doing a great job.

[A Man In Black]

KestlerGunner wrote:

IMHO, Pathfinder has effectively blocked WOTC from ever being able to 'go back' to what D&D was back in 2005. Any attempt by WOTC top 'go back' will be an exercise in futility, because Pathfinder has taken that material, has fixed the inherent bugs with that system, and then has built 3 yrs + of material to support it and instil new campaigns and new gamer groups.

This is nonsense, particularly the idea that Pathfinder fixed significant problems with 3e. Competent people working on a 3e iteration that had no particular reason to be backwards compatible or respect any sacred cows could easily turn that into D&D 5e.

Jason S wrote:

Forget Wizards. They just want our money, and to do that they keep on revising their rule system every 3-5 years. I don't need that. Every 10 years, ok, not every 5 years. Sure, Paizo wants our money too, but the product they give in return is worth it.

So if WOTC made a product that was worth your money...

It seems that the main crime was not the revision period, but the fact that 3.5e was hardly worth $100, and that both iterations of 4e sucked.

[Gary Teter]

Jason S wrote:

They just want our money

To be fair, I want your money too.

[Chris Kenney]

I find the idea of Paizo deciding to write for an OGL'd 5E to be fairly silly. Actually, at this point I find the idea of anybody with half an ounce of sense taking a 5E OGL seriously to be absolutely ludicrous. WOTC already proved they can and will simply kill your business model with no warning if they decide they don't like something you're doing. Or if they feel you're intruding on space they want to do something else with. Or maybe just because it's Tuesday.

That ship sailed with the way WOTC treated even their "closest" partners with the 4E transition. No one's going to trust the company again.

[Chris Self]

Gary Teter wrote:

Jason S wrote:

They just want our money

To be fair, I want your money too.

Owww! My toes!

[A Man In Black]

Chris Kenney wrote:

I find the idea of Paizo deciding to write for an OGL'd 5E to be fairly silly. Actually, at this point I find the idea of anybody with half an ounce of sense taking a 5E OGL seriously to be absolutely ludicrous. WOTC already proved they can and will simply kill your business model with no warning if they decide they don't like something you're doing. Or if they feel you're intruding on space they want to do something else with. Or maybe just because it's Tuesday.

That ship sailed with the way WOTC treated even their "closest" partners with the 4E transition. No one's going to trust the company again.

Like how they killed Pathfinder dead?

Obviously, any revokable license isn't very open.

[Hudax]

Chris Self wrote:

Gary Teter wrote:

Jason S wrote:

They just want our money

To be fair, I want your money too.

Owww! My toes!

You need a toe?

I can get you a toe.

[Hudax]

Roman wrote:

It would certainly be good for customers. I doubt, though, that it would be good for Paizo. A rising tide is not an apt analogy in this instance - that would be more suited to a game that grows the market by trying to reach out to new players. This could, perhaps, be said about 4e. If 5e is to be a game designed to draw back lapsed customers, it does not grow the RPG market (well it still does, of course, but it does not gain a bulk of its users that way) and the competition becomes much more zero sum. A good metaphor might be nearby plants competing for sunlight - they can still both grow, but they hamper each other... and it is just possible that manages to take enough sunlight to sun-starve the other.

Good point about their goal. Will WoTC focus on drawing in new players, growing the market as a whole, or will they simply try to recapture some of the market share they lost? Obviously they will try to make it as appealing to as many people as possible, but ultimately I think they will have to focus one way or the other.

Since they basically tried to make 4e to be WoW on paper, I'm guessing they'll go for option 1--try to draw in new players. WoW's success is largely attributable to their ability to become more mainstream than any other MMO, reaching out to people who would otherwise never have touched the genre.

The question is, what would 5e have to look like to give it more mainstream appeal than the RPG genre has traditionally had? Revised 4e? Or something new?

[Umbral Reaver]

Hudax wrote:

Good point about their goal. Will WoTC focus on drawing in new players, growing the market as a whole, or will they simply try to recapture some of the market share they lost? Obviously they will try to make it as appealing to as many people as possible, but ultimately I think they will have to focus one way or the other.

Since they basically tried to make 4e to be WoW on paper, I'm guessing they'll go for option 1--try to draw in new players. WoW's success is largely attributable to their ability to become more mainstream than any other MMO, reaching out to people who would otherwise never have touched the genre.

The question is, what would 5e have to look like to give it more mainstream appeal than the RPG genre has traditionally had? Revised 4e? Or something new?

More mainstream? They'd have to make it into a video game. It's already a board game. Is there any other step to make before it's on consoles? Oh wait, the new Neverwinter is that.

[KestlerGunner]

A Man In Black wrote:

This is nonsense, particularly the idea that Pathfinder fixed significant problems with 3e. Competent people working on a 3e iteration that had no particular reason to be backwards compatible or respect any sacred cows could easily turn that into D&D 5e.

Maybe those sacred cows are here because 30 years of single RPG system development says the game falls to bits when you send 'em to the abattoir.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

Gary Teter wrote:

Jason S wrote:

They just want our money

To be fair, I want your money too.

I've got some of those Cars gummies.

[Heymitch]

Sebastian wrote:

It's only a matter of time before someone overhears something relevant and posts it there (Erik: "Gosh, that 5e sure is awesome, thank goodness the new Pathfinder Snacky Cakes line is coming out in late 2012").

I have to watch my blood sugar. If I don't subscribe to the Snacky Cakes line, will I lose my Superscriber status?

[Matthew Trent]

KestlerGunner wrote:

Maybe those sacred cows are here because 30 years of single RPG system development says the game falls to bits when you send 'em to the abattoir.

Seems unlikely. Almost by definition a sacred cow is a legacy rule preserved out of defrence to the past rather than any good reason.

For example I was tinkering with giving spontaneous casters a prepared caster progression and started wondering why 19th level wizards don't learn 10th level spells. The only good reason I could find was tradition.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

I think the presumption is that somethings that have been labeled "sacred cows" have not been properly understood for how they work in system or in terms of flavor and are thereby mislabeled.

[John Benbo]

I don't think Paizo should be worried about WoTC and vice versa. I see it like Coke and Pepsi or McDonalds and Burger King, an eternal struggle amongst giants in the industry. I think the greatest threat to either company is the unknown, that next big thing that's going to be a game changer like what WoTC with Magic once was. Somewhere out there is someone working on something that will challenge both companies for our valuable wallets.

[Black Lotus]

I think paizo well do just fine smurfin along like always.

[Mok]

Ahh... what a comfy armchair this is. May I?

Regardless of what WotC comes up with for 5e they have to answer to the suits at Hasbro.

Hasbro has to be looking at Blizzard, who has a system down and market dominance that is so strong that they can spend a decade fussing with Starcraft II. They just rake in cash and I can't comprehend any message coming down from Hasbro-on-high that is anything other than, "figure out how to replicate that." I don't know what the numbers are, but I'd guess that if you captured x percent of the WoW market, you'd be surpassing the entire RPG market.

And now that the legal quagmire of computerized D&D is out of the way they can finally get down to business doing that.

Whatever 5e ends up being, it's going to involve an even tighter digitized integration. There can't possibly be any trends at the macro scale of publishing that say that cranking out tons of hard back books to a shrinking print market is going to lead to an evergreen product.

Paizo on the other hand is likely viewing things at more of a micro hobby market. They can keep expanding print runs to reach deeper into this market. Eventually the market will shift to a digital format, but I'd guess that the shrinkage at the micro scale is happening at a smaller rate than at the macro scale in publishing.

In terms of Paizo's reaction. It's hard to imagine a lot of investment in a "reaction" to 5e because they've built up a solid business model, which seems to be "write, draw and sell a lot of content, using a solid rules framework to draw people into said content." The only reaction I've seen so far is Paizo moving into what WotC seems to keep seceding (such as minis).

Ultimately, WotC is under vast corporate pressure to produce results on a scale that Hasbro finds worthwhile. Meanwhile Paizo is privately owned and so it does what the owners are pleased and content with.

[LazarX]

Roman wrote:

The signs on the RPG scene these days are pointing to the rather likely possibility that design of the 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons is already under way and possibly has been for some time. It is not the purpose of this post to delve into the details or discuss the likelihood in any great detail, so suffice it to say that the Legends & Lore series of articles seem to point that way, as does the rehiring of Monte Cook by Wizards of the Coast. Further evidence attesting to this comes from sales and the release schedule for 4e – the sales of the Pathfinder RPG are of the same magnitude as those of 4e and may even be outselling it, which is a major achievement, though it probably also owes a great deal to the weak release schedule for 4e that is somewhat reminiscent of the end of official support for 3.5E. In any case, even if you still don’t believe 5e is coming, just assume that it is anyway for the purposes of this thread.

I would enjoy seeing a discussion of what Paizo will and/or can do to position itself, as well as the Pathfinder RPG, to prepare for and withstand the challenge that 5E will pose. It appears from the Legends & Lore series of articles that Wizards of the Coast is keen on designing a game that will reunite the splintered D&D fan-base. That may be beneficial for the players, but it could hurt PFRPG and Paizo.

At this point, I think that Pathfinder has solidified it's own market that's pretty much independent of what WOTC will do with 4E, 5E, or 6+E. They've essentially fragmented to two separate markets with no real overlap.

We need more than one good game system on the market to keep things dynamic. A Pathfinder monopoly is no more to be desired than one held by Hasbro. The better the product that WOTC puts out, the more we all benefit.

[Jason S]

John Benbo wrote:

I think the greatest threat to either company is the unknown, that next big thing that's going to be a game changer like what WoTC with Magic once was. Somewhere out there is someone working on something that will challenge both companies for our valuable wallets.

I think that was World of Warcraft. It consumed almost every single gamer I knew at the time. People are finally coming back to pen and paper though now.

[see]

Assuming a reasonably soon release of 5th:

If 5th isn't released under the OGL, I won't touch it; I'd expect them to release 6th way too soon afterward (given that it would be way too soon itself relative to both 4th and 3.5), and I would want an escape. I would also assume that it would be basically irrelevant to Paizo; the GSL isn't good enough for building a business on, IMO and I expect theirs.

(Paizo positioning under this scenario: "4th Edition just went away. 3.x is still here. Even if we abandoned it, another company would pick it up, just like we did when WotC dropped it.")

If 5th is released under the OGL, I'll evaluate it on its merits, as I expect Paizo will. I bet Paizo sticks with Pathfinder for a good while, though; Pathfinder's just reached its stride.

(Paizo positioning under this scenario: Wait and see. If 5th really does amount to an onslaught, the sales will tell the tale, and then Paizo can follow the OGL to selling 5th stuff.)

If 5th is OGL and they go though and release (the bulk of) 4th under the OGL retroactively, I'll buy 5th unseen to reward them for OGLing 4th, even though 4th isn't my game.

(Paizo positioning under this scenario: As above.)

[John Benbo]

Jason S wrote:

John Benbo wrote:

I think the greatest threat to either company is the unknown, that next big thing that's going to be a game changer like what WoTC with Magic once was. Somewhere out there is someone working on something that will challenge both companies for our valuable wallets.

I think that was World of Warcraft. It consumed almost every single gamer I knew at the time. People are finally coming back to pen and paper though now.

Yes, I agree that WoW was definitely another one. So what's the next going to be the next WoW and will it dominate the industry? Since I'm obviously not a marketing person for either Paizo or Hasbro, I can't really answer. They would have a crystal clear view of the industry, a demographical breakdown by age catergories, spending preferences, etc and how niche their industry is and what other industries compete with their customer base. What I find ironic for me personally is that when I was younger, I had the time to play a lot different types of RPGs, but couldn't afford all the different books. Now as an adult, I can afford all the different the books, but I don't have the time to play more than one RPG!

[Sunderstone]

To me, D&D is dead. The game I grew up playing is gone. It was a marvelous run with some unforgettable gaming moments. WotC drove it into the ground (as Many of us knew they would.
I have zero confidence in WotC producing any kind of RPG. Even with Monte Cook as the lead designer.

Pathfinder has everything I could want in a tabletop RPG. Great Adventures, Rules, Campaign Setting, etc. It's also backwards compatible (with a little work) with a huge library of goodies from the 3E/3.5 era. Many of my favorite developers are here too.

Based on all this, I cant see myself playing D&D ever again. I'll stick with PFRPG. I wonder what will happen to the brand if it fails again for 5E.

[Hudax]

Jason S wrote:

John Benbo wrote:

I think the greatest threat to either company is the unknown, that next big thing that's going to be a game changer like what WoTC with Magic once was. Somewhere out there is someone working on something that will challenge both companies for our valuable wallets.

I think that was World of Warcraft. It consumed almost every single gamer I knew at the time. People are finally coming back to pen and paper though now.

I think a big reason for this is the relative suck that is Cataclysm.

[Steve Geddes]

I don't think any 5th edition should have much impact on what Paizo decide to do. Although they would be silly to not be abreast of their main competitor's direction and the response in the marketplace, companies making strategic decisions based on their competitors actions is not usually profitable in the long term. (Having said that, there are exceptions and I guess the developing 'two gorillas in the room' situation might be one of them). I'd be surprised if the direction they went with Pathfinder was heavily influenced by 4th edition (the change in OGL licensing may well have had an impact on those discussions, but even then - I doubt it was as significant an issue as "What kind of game do we want to support and play?").

I actually think the nature of any new edition won't be as significant as the method of delivery they choose, amongst other things. I think the decline in WoTC's ranking in the oft-cited gameshop survey has been driven significantly by a shift towards online content from books. That shift in philosophy is already causing me (as a big fan of both games) to begin to favor one system over the other - I like books and dont like PDF or online content. My guess would be that issues like this will be more determinative than questions like whether 5th edition has crafting skills or similar - no matter how heatedly things like that are discussed on the internet.

[Robb Smith]

Sunderstone wrote:

WotC drove it into the ground (as Many of us knew they would.

I have zero confidence in WotC producing any kind of RPG. Even with Monte Cook as the lead designer.

Well, with all fairness, I'd probably say it's more likely that Hasbro ran it into the ground. Having worked with enough marketing departments, I can easily imagine this conversation occuring:

(Begin Satire)

<Hasbro> Hey.. uh.. D&D guys!
<WoTC> Yes, boss?
<Hasbro> say, you're doing pretty decent with that D&D thing.
<WoTC> Yeah, it's going pretty well. It's been pretty well received after a rocky start, but people have complained about every edition change there ever was, so..
<Hasbro> oh.. well, yeah, on that subject... the material you're putting out is kinda.. esoteric. Sales are down a bit.
<WoTC> Well.. I mean, we can only put out so many Bestiaries before we run out of ideas for monsters.. and we sorta have run the course on complete books..
<Hasbro> Yeah.. so, the marketing and the suits all got together and we came up with a great idea! let's start over.
<WoTC> Huh?
<Hasbro> Yeah.. Come on, imagine with me now... Brand new edition, players will have to buy all the stuff over again, you can start fresh and have all that creative canvas to work with.
<WoTC> err.. but... we have a great system, it's well received by the players... people hate edition changes...
<Hasbro> Super! So get started on that right away. Let's get this done fairly quick though, ok? There's only so much on the release schedule. Just go look at that War of Worldcraft or whatever the kids like these days for ideas. Try to mix in some a CCG element, and one of the bosses came up with this awesome idea for "twitter buffs" that'll keep the friendbooking crowd engaged!.
<WoTC> *whimpers*

(End Satire)

But really, I think it's more likely that Hasbro pulls back D&D into a quiet corner and lets it languish on life support forever. I just can't see a "5th edition" coming out anytime soon. WoTC does not have a good track record at handling failure. Look at how many things were allowed to come and go with nary a whimper over the years. If you think D&D is "above" that, remember one thing: Hasbro cares about what's making money now. If using the D&D name for board games and letting the roleplaying game line die makes more money, that's what they'll do.

You can hate it, you can hate it with the fury of a thousand dying stars, but you can't fault it. Companies make decisions that are profitable. It's their responsibility to their employees and their stake/shareholders.

While I'm not privy to their detailed financial information, it seems like Paizo has little reason to change their current course. They seem to be a well run, profitable company that is respected and awarded in the industry they operate in. After the coming and (basically) ending of 4th edition, if WoTC/Hasbro puts out a new edition of Dungeons and Dragons, I'm pretty confident it would have to cure cancer, feed the starving children of the world, and unite humanity in a new era of peace and understanding* to have an impact beyond "meh" in a significant portion of gamer's eyes.

No offense intended to anyone in Marketing... I'm sorry, but you just make it SO EASY to make fun of you :P

[Hudax]

Quote:

one of the bosses came up with this awesome idea for "twitter buffs" that'll keep the friendbooking crowd engaged!

twitch

[Shem]

I have never felt that Paizo was ever intentionally in competition with WOTC or 4e. I do not think they should change anything and I do not think they should have a reaction to 5e at all but carry on as they have.

Another issue that moved Clark Peterson away from moving forward with 4e stuff and moved Paizo toward creating Pathfinder was the change from the OGL to the GSL. Unless issues with the GSL are resolved I do not see Paizo or other people who opted out of creating material for 4e supporting a 5e in the future.

[A Man In Black]

KestlerGunner wrote:

Maybe those sacred cows are here because 30 years of single RPG system development says the game falls to bits when you send 'em to the abattoir.

You can't have D&D without THAC0 and saving throw charts!

There are lots of ways 3e could be improved if backwards compatibility were off the table. To see an example of this process at work, look at the creation of 3e in the first place.

Mok wrote:

Hasbro has to be looking at Blizzard, who has a system down and market dominance that is so strong that they can spend a decade fussing with Starcraft II.

The more immediate example, I would think, would be Magic: the Gathering, which has been even more dominant for even longer, and also happens to be in the same house.

[Reis]

I think most people will look at both PF and 5e and decide which they think is the better game and then play that one. Most people that play d&d aren't just doing it for name recognition anymore, they are pretty sophisticated gamers and will make a informed decision between two options they see as qualitatively different.

One thing I would say will probably hurt 5e for me is what they did to Forgotten Realms. That was my favorite setting, but I don't like 4e changes to it at all. I guess I could go ahead and play 5e (or pathfinder for that matter) using the 2/3/3.5e material but knowing that all the new FR books will be printed using the "lol, spellplague!" timeline isn't very attractive to me.

[proudgeek159]

The best possible course for WotC and Hasbro is the one course that they will never take: quietly begin producing new Pathfinder-compatible content based on their proprietary game worlds. I'm willing to bet that they would make a killing on minor updates of Eberron, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and the rest. The bottom line is this: I play Pathfinder because, at one time, D&D was an amazing game! Even as late as 2007, Wizards was coming out with great 3.5 content (Dungeonscape, one of my all-time favorites now). It would take very little time and investment to do it well, since the foundation is so solid. Unfortunately, it would require them to admit that they no longer have sole-superpower status in the gaming world, and they just cannot do that.

The question isn't how is Paizo going to react to WotC, it's how is WotC going to react to Paizo.

Craig

P.S. Please, no Pathfinder 2.0. I won't buy it, even if I have to quit playing PFS. I'm through with new editions for a while...

[Dorje Sylas]

My two cents says if it's not OGL it's going to flop or at the least not gain any ground. I believe there was a saying about star systems and fingers. Watching 4e go by on the outside it seems like Wizards has made every major misstep possible if they were trying to bring D&D into the 21st century. Their digital initiatives most of all.

I agree with A Man In Black that if Wizards went back to the end era 3.5 and did a serious revision without worry to backwards compatibly. Quite honestly when I heard there was going to be 4e I was expecting them to iterate on 3.5, clean it up, junk stuff that clearly didn't work, and generally improve it. It was quite the head scratcher when they did what seemed like a 180 or maybe 135 on the 4e design. The "sacred cow" purge they went on seemed unnecessary and extreme.

Unfortunately I don't think it's going to be as radical as folks are thinking. Wizards/Hasbro isn't going to bend a knee and concede GSL vs OGL match. They need to reconsolidate a good chunk of material from the Essentials lines and fix some seriously broken bits in 4e. Rituals and Skill Challenges come to mind as two really clunky after thoughts that have need constant tinkering. For course their strategy of pumping a glut player targeted material has come back around IMO. More often then not I see people saying "just get a DDI subscription for a month" that's all you need. This goes to the problem of having so much "core" material spread out all over the place and players wanting only the choicest bits of power creep.

Any reaction from Paizo will have to wait for Wizards to figure out what it's going to do. Just like with the GSL debacle that really kind kicked this whole shebang off to begin with.

[meatrace]

Gary Teter wrote:

Keep in mind that neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast are likely to post in this thread any secret future plans, so everything posted in here is going to be pure speculation, based on pure speculation.

So when you feel like disagreeing with someone (and you probably will, I can tell it has the potential to be that kind of thread), keep in mind that it's just their opinion. They're no more privy to the truth than you are.

And when you post your awesome idea that Paizo absolutely must do or else we're going to go out of business, please have faith in Lisa, Erik and the rest of us that we got to this point because we're not stupid.

...

YOU KNOW SOMETHING YOU'RE NOT TELLING US!

[estergum]

If WoTC are to make a new version they would be mad to look backwards.

They would look forwards, see how the can create a game that would sit naturally with mobile devices, tablets and the 'social' network models to get the new gaming $.

A sort of OGL?, maybe, but it would take a bit more vision than a tradition copyright focused corporate normally has.

I don't think Piazo can make the jump to the mobile/tablet model, and would be silly to, because that's not what they are good at.
Of course they can work with partners or ideally, in my opinion, a open source/community effort would lead the way.

5e, be it created by Piazo or WoTC, will be a whole new world.

[KaeYoss]

Gary Teter wrote:

And when you post your awesome idea that Paizo absolutely must do or else we're going to go out of business, please have faith in Lisa, Erik and the rest of us that we got to this point because we're not stupid.

Oh. And I attributed it to an infernal pact ;-P

[KaeYoss]

ryric wrote:

So the presumption, as I understand it, is that WotC creates a 5e that is actually D&D, and thus is positioned to lure players to their new shiny thing that no longer contains all the crap that drove loyal fans away from 4e.

[...]

That having been said, Paizo has much much better customer relations than the current incarnation at WotC, and that counts for a lot.

The latter part is very important. While they lost a lot of fans because of 4e itself (i.e. how the rules turned out) and more with what they did to the FR, another big bunch was lost because of how wotc treated former fans.

Those guys are unlikely to go back to wotc and their new game just because there's a new game.

It could help if they explained and apologised for their behaviour, but I find it unlikely that they will, so a lot of the fans they have lost will stay lost to them.

[KaeYoss]

Gary Teter wrote:

Jason S wrote:

They just want our money

To be fair, I want your money too.

But you're not going to get MY...what is that? A shiny big black dragon miniature? An adventure Path featuring pirates and another with ninja and Vikings? AND a Pathfinder Space book?

Here, take my wallet, just help yourself to whatever you want. Seems easier that way.

So what was I saying? ;-)

[Kthulhu]

GAAAHHHH wrote:

Maybe they'll decide to forget about 5th edition, and just reprint original D&D. Unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Meh. The Frog God's got that covered, except now it's organized in a manner that makes it useable.

[A Man In Black]

KaeYoss wrote:

It could help if they explained and apologised for their behaviour, but I find it unlikely that they will, so a lot of the fans they have lost will stay lost to them.

It wouldn't cost them a thing. Most of the people who were involved in that aren't actually with WOTC any more, so it'd be easy to blame them.

Few people skipped 3e because of Lorraine Williams-era TSR, for example.

[BigNorseWolf]

Gary Teter wrote:

Jason S wrote:

They just want our money

To be fair, I want your money too.

*sniff*

You said you loved me!

[Roman]

Speaking of the OGL, I am skeptical that 5E is going to go that route. Indeed, I would guess that one of the reasons for the drastic changes imposed by 4e was to create more IP not subject to the OGL. That's also my guess for why WotC is more keen on making up new names for creatures/races/etc. rather than taking them from myths and legends (which is my preference). I guess one can never be sure, but I really don't think 5E D&D will be as open as 3.X edition.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

IMHO the corporate world of Hasbro has gotten their teeth into DnD, and are not ever going to let go. The only way they are going to get their old market at this point is a re-adoption of the 3.5 system, or some actual adaptation of that. I just don't see it happening.

With this in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if DnD 5th ed is an MMORPG being the final nail in an already berried coffin. Maybe it would be like a concrete cover making sure that its undead vampire/lich self will not rise from the grave one-day to take its revenge on those who killed it.
____

Maybe one day DnD's son might have something to say about its murder by the upper corporate world.

"Hello, My name is Pathfinder.. You killed my Father,. Prepare to DIE."
j/k

[Reis]

estergum wrote:

If WoTC are to make a new version they would be mad to look backwards.

They would look forwards, see how the can create a game that would sit naturally with mobile devices, tablets and the 'social' network models to get the new gaming $.

the problem is that sort of model seems to be almost fundamentally incompatible with what most players consider to be good Dungeons and Dragons.

[DigitalMage]

From my personal perspective, if Paizo want to continue to keep me as a customer in the light of any D&D 5e they need to do two things (or rather do one thing and don't do another):

Keep supporting Pathfinder Society Organised Play.

Don't bring out a Pathfinder 2nd Edition that will be required to buy and learn in order to play PFS Organised Play.

In the past I have been critical about Pathfinder RPG, saying it was hamstrung by an attempt to keep some level of backward compatibility that meant it didn't offer enough change to appeal to me - I thus said I would be interested in seeing a 2nd edition.

However, I have now bought into the current Pathfinder RPG line (warts and all) in order to play PFS (that is the only reason I play PF), in fact I just bought Bestiary, GM Screen, APG, Seekers or Secrets, Field Guide, Guide to Absalom, Inner Sea Primer and Guide to Darkmoon Vale.

So a 2nd edition now, even if it did offer the level of changes I originally wanted to see, would be a deal breaker for me and I would probably drop out of PFS completely and thus out of PF RPG in general.

Personally, I hope D&D 5e is a reworking of 4e for some 3.5 sensibilities, add in an Artisan skill maybe for crafting, forgery and appraisal, make more powers useful outside of combat and not require you to hit something to get an unrelated effect etc. Make it at least have an option so you don't get all your HP back overnight; so PCs can be ground down over a number of days etc.

If I can get that mash up of the best of 4e and 3.5 I will likely enjoy 5e, and if WotC started supporting Living campaigns again, specifically creating a Living Eberron campaign I would likely drop PF and PFS and go totally D&D again.

[LazarX]

Hudax wrote:

I think a big reason for this is the relative suck that is Cataclysm.

I think a big reason for this is the relative suck that is Wrath of the Lich King.

I think a big reason for this is the relative suck that is Burning Crusade.

Just fixed the above to highlight the variations of the same line I heard through every expansion. For a relative suck, they're still hosting 11 million gamers a year at an average of 15 per pop plus what they shell out for expacs. Yes the WOW population seems to have peaked, but that also reflects t hat many folks are cutting back on luxuries, including in more than some cases, their broadband internet services.

Story wise, Cataclysm has been the best expansion ever, just edging out Wrath There hasn't been an expansion that's been more relevant to my main character lore and quest wise. And the revamps they made to all the character starts (with the exception of the draenei were great.

[Steve Geddes]

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

IMHO the corporate world of Hasbro has gotten their teeth into DnD, and are not ever going to let go. The only way they are going to get their old market at this point is a re-adoption of the 3.5 system, or some actual adaptation of that. I just don't see it happening.

I doubt Hasbro pay any attention to D&D - and I'm sure they don't pay it enough to issue any edicts as to it's development. Wizards of the Coast have been performing well for them over the last year or so (no small feat given the economy over that time), largely due to Magic's strong growth. A subsidiary delivering growth in luxury goods during a prolonged period of economic uncertainty would generally be enough to avoid micromanagement, in my view.

Like you, I suspect they will be focussed more and more on developing the D&D brand outside of tabletop roleplaying. I'm not so convinced it will be a 'traditional' MMORPG, but the recent facebook game and the success they've had with the gamma world and the various boardgames are both pointers to a continued broadening of the brand I would guess.