From what I have heard, when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the setting much to the chagrin of many Dark Sun fans. Upon the 4e conversion, WotC supposedly said that these novels represent only one potential future for Dark Sun. Hence, I think the Dark Sun conversion to 4e has been handled well.
As a Dark Sun fan, resetting to square one didn't seem a problem at all. You can decide to use the old timeline or not as you see fit. But then again, I've never been one to worry that much about canon. As long as I have mechanics to make characters, I'm good with using whatever time period of a setting I want to.
Not that Dark Sun ever had the volumes of material that FR collected.
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From what I have heard, when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the setting much to the chagrin of many Dark Sun fans.
Let me correct you:
"When when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the horrible changes TSR made to the setting much to the happiness and utter joy of many Dark Sun fans."
Nobody liked Prism Pentad.
We really, really, really are tired of the edition war nonsense. Play the games you want to play, and don't denigrate others because of their preferred game system.And my reply to this is "why can't we express" our preference and why it is so?
Of course the same arguments might have comes countless times since PF day one but why denying people their opinion even if it's pure nonsense?Don't forget that the jobe YOU actualy have AND the position Paizo is IN is directly linked to the fact that LOOOOOOOTS of peoples have actualy taken a firm stand in that edition war... wich is YOUR side!
My 2 cents
This is laffo to the laffoth dimension.
Nobody liked Prism Pentad.
*tentative hand raise* I liked Prism Pentad...
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This is laffo to the laffoth dimension.We really, really, really are tired of the edition war nonsense. Play the games you want to play, and don't denigrate others because of their preferred game system.And my reply to this is "why can't we express" our preference and why it is so?
Of course the same arguments might have comes countless times since PF day one but why denying people their opinion even if it's pure nonsense?Don't forget that the jobe YOU actualy have AND the position Paizo is IN is directly linked to the fact that LOOOOOOOTS of peoples have actualy taken a firm stand in that edition war... wich is YOUR side!
My 2 cents
Agreed and seconded. One of the most flimiest excuses I have ever seen to continue and encourage an edition war. Someone who works fo the company ask for the edtion war to stop and gets told "why should we. Our editions warring for you made you who you are". Yeah I'm sure Paizo really needs that kind of "help" and "support" from it's fanabse.
furthermore, the 4e junkies should have just created new pages instead of writing over the old ones
Agreed. I used it as I did not have the space to have all my books out and it was easier to search a wiki then books in the closet. I am unsure if they ever stopped, but I knew the changes were large and many. I just read some and knew it was not the way in my books, so had to hunt out my books to check.
It is and was a new setting, it should have had a new wiki.
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Hasbro don't sell brands they have developed or acquired.
They mothball and then renew.
Not that it is very encouraging to the dnd staff, but it is different to how you suggest.
Ah, see as an investor who had a stake in Atari, I'm used to Hasbro selling off brands, so it's been a lingering thought about the D&D brand.
But you're right, they don't have a history of selling off rights to toy brands like Transformers/My Little Pony/etc.
So it would be a toss-up if they consider D&D a gaming brand like Atari and there is a willing buyer, or they consider it a toy brand like GI Joe and they mothball it for a decade...?
From what I have heard, when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the setting much to the chagrin of many Dark Sun fans.Let me correct you:
"When when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the horrible changes TSR made to the setting much to the happiness and utter joy of many Dark Sun fans."
Nobody liked Prism Pentad.
That's exactly what I said, though with less vitriol towards the Prism Pentad. I wouldn't say that nobody liked Prism Pentad, but it drastically altered the Dark Sun setting and not in a good way, so WotC's return of the setting to the era before that is a huge plus.
I am a Dark Sun fan and although I did not purchase the 4e Dark Sun on account of not playing 4e, from what I have heard about the era return, I definitely approve of what WotC has done with it. Hopefully, if there is a 5e conversion, WotC will do a similarly good job with the setting.
Anyway, my point is that if WotC could do it with Dark Sun in 4e, there is no reason why they couldn't do the same with Forgotten Realms in 5e.
So it would be a toss-up if they consider D&D a gaming brand like Atari and there is a willing buyer, or they consider it a toy brand like GI Joe and they mothball it for a decade...?
Clearly, we need everyone to get the loose change from under the couch so we can buy the name back.
Anyway, my point is that if WotC could do it with Dark Sun in 4e, there is no reason why they couldn't do the same with Forgotten Realms in 5e.
Or it would be viewed as a horrible idea by those that actually enjoy the current Realms content and history. Frankly, if they did this I can't say I'd drop FR all together but it would be a slap in the face, pandering to a very vocal minority who can't grasp the idea of progress or take due criticism of the 1375 DR Realms.
Yes, this probably will anger a lot of "old-school" Realms fans but I don't really care at this point. I've played it their way for 10+ years and FINALLY when the Realms is done in a way which I like, it'll be scrapped because a few throw a tantrum?
So yea, go and change everything back again. No spellplague, no dead Mystra, Mystra being the MOST POWERFUL BEING IN FAERÛN again (because that was superb writing and lore right there...). I'm sure that'll bring in the masses upon masses of fans to the Realms and quell any nay-sayers.
What I find hypocritical is when some one expresses a dislike for one part of the Realms everyone says "Well just take out that element" but (and often in the same sentence) also says "Then why are you using the Realms if you don't like that?" So which is it, cut it out or quite the setting? Sorry but this is a big reason why people feel that Realms fans are Elitist Lore-Lawyers.
Agreed and seconded. One of the most flimiest excuses I have ever seen to continue and encourage an edition war. Someone who works fo the company ask for the edtion war to stop and gets told "why should we. Our editions warring for you made you who you are". Yeah I'm sure Paizo really needs that kind of "help" and "support" from it's fanabse.Actually I have a good reason that is hard to dispute. The Global community is in a serious recession. It is well known that Wars bring us out of recessions and boost the economy.
Greece needs the edition wars. Their economy is seriously hurting.
Yes yes there are some negatives, but we must think of the greater good.
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So it would be a toss-up if they consider D&D a gaming brand like Atari and there is a willing buyer, or they consider it a toy brand like GI Joe and they mothball it for a decade...?
I think this may happen if 5e flops.
Or it would be viewed as a horrible idea by those that actually enjoy the current Realms content and history. Frankly, if they did this I can't say I'd drop FR all together but it would be a slap in the face, pandering to a very vocal minority who can't grasp the idea of progress or take due criticism of the 1375 DR Realms.
I think the group may be a vocal majority.
Yes, this probably will anger a lot of "old-school" Realms fans but I don't really care at this point. I've played it their way for 10+ years and FINALLY when the Realms is done in a way which I like, it'll be scrapped because a few throw a tantrum?
THe same that people that supported the realms for the 20 years previous would not care if their 'slap in the face' was properly fixed? My goal is to get a Forgotten Realms that I recognize back. they can release the other in tandem, but if they fixed the realms, I understand some would not like it, but I would happily support it again. It would be unfortunate if some felt they could not participate in a fixed realms, but those that quit the realms after changing it all around, went through the same thing. So I am OK with that.
So yea, go and change everything back again. No spellplague, no dead Mystra, Mystra being the MOST POWERFUL BEING IN FAERÛN again (because that was superb writing and lore right there...). I'm sure that'll bring in the masses upon masses of fans to the Realms and quell any nay-sayers.
There is nothing to suggest making an all powerful god in a pantheon is bad writing. The Vikings may not have been the best writers with Making Odin so powerful, but the Greeks by all counts were good writers, and they made Zeus.
The changes to the realms were major. A change in gods would have been fine, an utter change in landscape and flavor of different areas, that was a bit too much. You cite the changes as minor, but they were not. Politically, and ecologically they were major.
What I find hypocritical is when some one expresses a dislike for one part of the Realms everyone says "Well just take out that element" but (and often in the same sentence) also says "Then why are you using the Realms if you don't like that?" So which is it, cut it out or quite the setting? Sorry but this is a big reason why people feel that Realms fans are Elitist Lore-Lawyers.
I have been called an elitist scientist, and a beer and wine snob. I am OK adding Elitist Realms Lorist to the list.
Actually there is no hypocricy. I quit the realms because it capitalized on naming rites of cities and areas, and then made a new world out of it.
See in the older realms you COULD cut out the bits you did not like. In the 4e realms, in order to enjoy support, you cannot cut out the flavor changes. If you entered the realms before and played, you already knew the flavor. Work from there. The fans with ongoing campaigns actually had the flavor changed on them, that is a completely different situation.
The people that supported the realms for many years and did not like the changes to flavor have a different situation altogether.
It would be upsetting to see people have to leave their campaigns for fixing the realms. Ultimately though that is what happened to the old realms supporters. If they fixed the realms they would get my money again. If they leave the realms as is, you are welcome to it.
If Forgotten Realms was a band the label of selling out would apply.
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That's exactly what I said, though with less vitriol towards the Prism Pentad. I wouldn't say that nobody liked Prism Pentad, but it drastically altered the Dark Sun setting and not in a good way, so WotC's return of the setting to the era before that is a huge plus.
Personally I think the problem with Prism Pentad was that it changed the setting right after the setting came out. It would be akin to having the Dragonlance setting come out, boasting "No divine magic! No gods!" then have the War of the lance being the first trillogy, introducing all the things that they just said weren't there.
Or it would be viewed as a horrible idea by those that actually enjoy the current Realms content and history. Frankly, if they did this I can't say I'd drop FR all together but it would be a slap in the face, pandering to a very vocal minority who can't grasp the idea of progress or take due criticism of the 1375 DR Realms.
Not at all, it would bring the realms players back, ya know the ones who liked and supported the setting for 20+ years. The reboot failed, we know so as they wisely never tried it with any other setting and sales were not as the expected, even the novel have slowed.
The setting you like is frankly not the Realms, so I could care less if you lost your new setting so we could have the real realms back.
Yes, this probably will anger a lot of "old-school" Realms fans but I don't really care at this point. I've played it their way for 10+ years and FINALLY when the Realms is done in a way which I like, it'll be scrapped because a few throw a tantrum?
Again it is far, far from a few, the outrage was so great they scrapped plans to do any other settings like that. They gave in to a vocal minority and did the new setting. It failed. They killed the Realms because they forgot who bought the realms, they tried to bring in new folks and those that hated the realms and lost those who paid the bills, those folks like me who bought everything.
So yea, go and change everything back again. No spellplague, no dead Mystra, Mystra being the MOST POWERFUL BEING IN FAERÛN again (because that was superb writing and lore right there...). I'm sure that'll bring in the masses upon masses of fans to the Realms and quell any nay-sayers.
I see no issues with Mystra being the most powerful, the weave working like it always did nor the score of High powered Pc's. And shocker, nether did Realm fans for 20+ years. People like you are the minority of realms fans, you can't be a fan of something you hate for being what it is.
What I find hypocritical is when some one expresses a dislike for one part of the Realms everyone says "Well just take out that element" but (and often in the same sentence) also says "Then why are you using the Realms if you don't like that?" So which is it, cut it out or quite the setting? Sorry but this is a big reason why people feel that Realms fans are Elitist Lore-Lawyers.
The Lore-Lawyers are the realms fans, we liked it because the lore. It was successful because people like us wanted that. The new setting is not the realms, why do I want to take a setting that used Names and themes from another setting and changed its history , its lore and its feel when I can use the setting it stole those from?
The setting you are playing is simply a pale intimation of the realms, a weak setting that stole names and places from another. If they bring the real Realms back I'll buy it, I'll even buy the novels again. But most likly they will milk the tainted setting for all they can, using name from one setting on what is no longer that setting.
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Anyway, my point is that if WotC could do it with Dark Sun in 4e, there is no reason why they couldn't do the same with Forgotten Realms in 5e.Or it would be viewed as a horrible idea by those that actually enjoy the current Realms content and history. Frankly, if they did this I can't say I'd drop FR all together but it would be a slap in the face, pandering to a very vocal minority who can't grasp the idea of progress or take due criticism of the 1375 DR Realms.
Yes, this probably will anger a lot of "old-school" Realms fans but I don't really care at this point. I've played it their way for 10+ years and FINALLY when the Realms is done in a way which I like, it'll be scrapped because a few throw a tantrum?
Yes, all of us who enjoyed the Realms through...
Are unable to grasp the ides of 'progress'.
*yawn* And who's throwing a tantrum at the idea of fixing the madness of the Spellplauge, which is impossible by any standard of Realms history?
I think the group may be a vocal majority.
You could since your in that group. Which is fine. I disagree however that most people who enjoy a product spend less time praising it on Messageboards and more time playing it. The decline on the WotC boards is frankly due to the edition warring up to 4E debut and about 10-15 very vocal people leaving. But it matters little at this point. They'll keep it as is and the people mad will stay mad OR they'll change it and make all new people mad while possibly pulling others into the fold (be they WotC haters or not).
The same that people that supported the realms for the 20 years previous would not care if their 'slap in the face' was properly fixed? My goal is to get a Forgotten Realms that I recognize back. they can release the other in tandem, but if they fixed the realms, I understand some would not like it, but I would happily support it again. It would be unfortunate if some felt they could not participate in a fixed realms, but those that quit the realms after changing it all around, went through the same thing. So I am OK with that.
And my goal is to keep the Realms firmly planted in the better direction it has gone these last 3 years. Ya know, there were reasons these changes happend and it's not because some random guys said to themselves "Hmm.....we don't like this setting as is, lets change it!" but probably read what a multitude of people felt about the setting and saw it's decline during the 3E era and said "If we want this to be our MAIN campaign setting for 4E, we should probably appeal to a broader base and spread out instead of a niche group of people.
And it's unfortunate that you feel you can't participate in the current Realms even though the lore is all still there, the Gods (mostly) are still there, and the world is still the Realms, dispite your personal views.
There is nothing to suggest making an all powerful god in a pantheon is bad writing. The Vikings may not have been the best writers with Making Odin so powerful, but the Greeks by all counts were good writers, and they made Zeus.
Wait, wait, wait sorry but Zeus does NOT actually control how people control a LARGE portion of their lives. He didn't control...fire for example. Had he physically controlled the element of fire (something so vital to sustaining life) that I'm rather sure he'd be the most heavily praised God and only lip-service to the others.
No, if one believes Mystra was magic and without her there is no magic (divine or arcane) then her clergy would've populated every faucet of society. Her clergy and followers would be SO HUGE as to dwarf other Gods. The only other being more power would've been Ao and he could probably care less. Sorry but I have a problem with an Overlord deity depicting how, who, and where magic will be used. And this philosophy completely screws with her Alignment. Neutral Good?! Are you kidding me? If he were to stick true to her Alignment then she'd be bound by that to remove all magic from evil powers and organizations (she has that ability no?) just fullfilling her job as a Neutral Good power. Yea, great setting management there fellas.
The changes to the realms were major. A change in gods would have been fine, an utter change in landscape and flavor of different areas, that was a bit too much. You cite the changes as minor, but they were not. Politically, and ecologically they were major.
Granted I wasn't a fan of Lantan (and probably Nimbral too) but I've just made it to my liking. The Shar, Vilhon Reach and the cities therein was a moderately interesting place and one I haven't decided is affected by the Spellplague in my Realms. Unther/Mulhorandi, Maztica, Halruua...I'm not too sorry to see them go. They held little to NO interest for me and I'm happier with the changes as they provide me with a more interesting place to explore.
I have been called an elitist scientist, and a beer and wine snob. I am OK adding Elitist Realms Lorist to the list.Actually there is no hypocricy. I quit the realms because it capitalized on naming rites of cities and areas, and then made a new world out of it.
So it's ok to tell me "change it how you like" but when I say that about the current Realms I get "hells no, it's a travesty and I don't like it! *humph*" Basically Basically I play it their way or get out, nice.
See in the older realms you COULD cut out the bits you did not like. In the 4e realms, in order to enjoy support, you cannot cut out the flavor changes. If you entered the realms before and played, you already knew the flavor. Work from there. The fans with ongoing campaigns actually had the flavor changed on them, that is a completely different situation.The people that supported the realms for many years and did not like the changes to flavor have a different situation altogether.
So I'm supposed to cut out the bits I don't like with.....what exactly? Oh wait I'd have to make things up completly on my own (not a hard task but one I'd rather not be required to do). Where as those not liking the changes could, uh, just not have the changes be made? Seems much simpler AND there's already established lore for those older areas. Yea, very different situation in which ones who didn't like aspects of the older Realms were forced to plug in something completly different with zero amount of pre-fabricated material vs. those who had everything served to them on a silver platter.
It would be upsetting to see people have to leave their campaigns for fixing the realms. Ultimately though that is what happened to the old realms supporters. If they fixed the realms they would get my money again. If they leave the realms as is, you are welcome to it.If Forgotten Realms was a band the label of selling out would apply.
Yea problem is that band was hit in the 80's and it's 2011 and they need to make money and feed their family. And their oldies hits just don't resonate with the new crowed. Yea, that's called re-imaging, not selling out.
Yes, all of us who enjoyed the Realms through...The deaths of several gods, including Mystra
The loss of Tilvertown
The Hoard invasion
The death of major characters and the throwing of Cormyr into chaos as a result
The rise of three major deities.
The death and rise of the Blackstaff
The reclusive elves making a return and a new land.
The founding of the Silver Marches. Are unable to grasp the ides of 'progress'.
*yawn* And who's throwing a tantrum at the idea of fixing the madness of the Spellplauge, which is impossible by any standard of Realms history?
Progress does not always mean what people think it means. I am quite involved in various environmental studies and issues. Often the environmentalist is considered against progress. Those saying it rarely realize environmentalists are interested in real progress, and not problematic dead ends.
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[Personally I think the problem with Prism Pentad was that it changed the setting right after the setting came out. It would be akin to having the Dragonlance setting come out, boasting "No divine magic! No gods!" then have the War of the lance being the first trillogy, introducing all the things that they just said weren't there.
Er...
That is a summary of how Dragonlance happened. It was a module series, not a setting(yet), but the first adventure explained kender, that there were no dragons, and that there were no gods. Then it went and brought dragons and gods back in right away, in that very adventure.
But, Dragonlance was not originally marketed as a setting. It was marketed as a dragon-themed series of linked adventures(proto-AP, if you will). The setting info came later.
Dark Sun was released as a setting, and then the metaplot came in and changed half the stuff in the original set. Prism Pentad made decent stories, but they have never been canon in any DS game I've run. DS, btw, is the main reason I want Paizo to hurry up and make psionic and 20+ rules. I want to do some PF Dark Sun!
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Progress does not always mean what people think it means. I am quite involved in various environmental studies and issues. Often the environmentalist is considered against progress. Those saying it rarely realize environmentalists are interested in real progress, and not problematic dead ends.
Yes, all of us who enjoyed the Realms through...The deaths of several gods, including Mystra
The loss of Tilvertown
The Hoard invasion
The death of major characters and the throwing of Cormyr into chaos as a result
The rise of three major deities.
The death and rise of the Blackstaff
The reclusive elves making a return and a new land.
The founding of the Silver Marches. Are unable to grasp the ides of 'progress'.
*yawn* And who's throwing a tantrum at the idea of fixing the madness of the Spellplauge, which is impossible by any standard of Realms history?
Ignoring the potential to get waaaaaaayyyyyy off topic, let me keep the tempature cool...
I'm not sure how to take the your reply. Are you saying I am wrong in saying that the Realms were progressing with the changes cited above? It's hard for me to comment if I don't get the reply's context correct.
Yes, all of us who enjoyed the Realms through...
The deaths of several gods, including Mystra
The loss of Tilvertown
The Hoard invasion
The death of major characters and the throwing of Cormyr into chaos as a result
The rise of three major deities.
The death and rise of the Blackstaff
The reclusive elves making a return and a new land.
The founding of the Silver Marches. Are unable to grasp the ides of 'progress'.
*yawn* And who's throwing a tantrum at the idea of fixing the madness of the Spellplauge, which is impossible by any standard of Realms history?
The death of Helm, IMO, was a mistake and one I believe they're "fixing" with the novel line. Tyr, well I liked him but I liked how he left (guns blazing on a suicide run though hell) better.
Tilverton was destoryed during the emergence of Shade's return....all of which happend during 2e to 3e shift BTW.
The Horde Invasion....happened during 3E time period (I'm assuming you mean the Horde of Horseman to invade Cormyr correct?)
Cormyr is one of the few contries that actually made out well during the Spellplague. Yes the Queen died as did the Royal Mage Caldnei. But the royal succession is still going on, theere are still War Wizards, Purple Dragon Knights, Suzail, Highhorn, yea.....looks pretty much the same to me. Wait, they're in a Coldwar with Shade and Sembia which I think is pretty interesting.
As for the elves, yea too bad they actually tooke measures into their own hands and re-took Myth Drannor. It would've been much more original to have them retreat. Wait, didn't Tolkien do that...yea he did.
The question on the FR setting, becomes are their more lapsed players that would come back to the version they enjoyed, then current players that you would lose if you changed the version they enjoy. I can say with certainty that there are more lapsed FR players then there are current ones, however that isn't the question. The question is how many can you get back.
It is one of the reasons I really like Golarion now. They don't have earthshaking events so no one has to remember them all.
To be honest this is why Paizo hasn't done psionics, yet.
Missing the point
Yes he knows all this, what he is saying is the realms was always changing and the 4e leap was not progress, it was both imposable and anti-realms.
You have the wrong Hoard there as well, he meant the Tuigan Horde invasion of 1359. Now that was fun
The elves BTW did indeed retreat. A few came back but the vast majority indeed did. I see you do not know your basic realms lore all that well.
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The death of Helm, IMO, was a mistake and one I believe they're "fixing" with the novel line. Tyr, well I liked him but I liked how he left (guns blazing on a suicide run though hell) better.
Tilverton was destoryed during the emergence of Shade's return....all of which happend during 2e to 3e shift BTW.
The Horde Invasion....happened during 3E time period (I'm assuming you mean the Horde of Horseman to invade Cormyr correct?)
Cormyr is one of the few contries that actually made out well during the Spellplague. Yes the Queen died as did the Royal Mage Caldnei. But the royal succession is still going on, theere are still War Wizards, Purple Dragon Knights, Suzail, Highhorn, yea.....looks pretty much the same to me. Wait, they're in a Coldwar with Shade and Sembia which I think is pretty interesting.
As for the elves, yea too bad they actually tooke measures into their own hands and re-took Myth Drannor. It would've been much more original to have them retreat. Wait, didn't Tolkien do that...yea he did.
Not to correct you...
The Hoard invasion was a 2e event, like the ToT. My boxed set is TSR and 2e, as are my novels.
I was referring to Azoun getting gakked in Cormyr the novel actually, again, 3e.
With the elves I was referring to the new colony in the Evermeet novel. I'd also add that the elves were in Retreat (complete with Caps) prior to Myth Drannor.
Point is, the Realms were changing, living, (and Living) evolving and growing before the Spellnuke. Digging deeper into (original) Realms Lore the reason for Mystra fractring her power was well documented, and why she (alone!) had the Chosen. Ed Greenwood's books also got into why the Chosen didn't always see eye to eye on how to do Her work. (Khelben and Elminster get into it in Knights of Myth Drannor, the Simbul* asks for a reason why NOT to Kill Elminster, the Knights, Shandril, et al in Spellfire. She asks again for a reason why not to kill Elminster, Dalamar and Mordenkainen in the Wizards three articles.)
To say that the realms 'never changed prior to 4e' is a false argument Heck, if they're fixing the Death of Helm, that death happened because of 4e!
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The question on the FR setting, becomes are their more lapsed players that would come back to the version they enjoyed, then current players that you would lose if you changed the version they enjoy. I can say with certainty that there are more lapsed FR players then there are current ones, however that isn't the question. The question is how many can you get back.
It is one of the reasons I really like Golarion now. They don't have earthshaking events so no one has to remember them all.
All of this is true and while I like Golarion, its not FR, which has been my Go yo setting since 91. If wizards with 5e rebooted the realms back to being the realms and not the new setting, I would buy it in a heartbeat. The 3e FRCS was my first non core 3e product. FRCS would have been my first and prob only 4e product, but the didn't make that product sadly.
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All of this is true and while I like Golarion, its not FR, which has been my Go yo setting since 91. If wizards with 5e rebooted the realms back to being the realms and not the new setting, I would buy it in a heartbeat.The question on the FR setting, becomes are their more lapsed players that would come back to the version they enjoyed, then current players that you would lose if you changed the version they enjoy. I can say with certainty that there are more lapsed FR players then there are current ones, however that isn't the question. The question is how many can you get back.
It is one of the reasons I really like Golarion now. They don't have earthshaking events so no one has to remember them all.
I'd at least buy the novels again.
Oh, the other thing I found funny about the reboot...
All the complaints I heard about the Realms... were still there.
I hate Elmisnter! (still there*)
I hate Drizzt! (Still there)
Waterdeep's too big! (still there)
etc.
That and it made no sense. If it really was 'magic went nuts' Waterdeep, Evermeet, Everska, Mythdranor should have been blown off the map. The Sea of fallen stars should have a crater, etc.
But hey, at least it was 'progress'. Progress George Taylor would understand.
*
Oh, the other thing I found funny about the reboot...
All the complaints I heard about the Realms... were still there.
I hate Elmisnter! (still there*)
I hate Drizzt! (Still there)
Waterdeep's too big! (still there)
etc.That and it made no sense. If it really was 'magic went nuts' Waterdeep, Evermeet, Everska, Mythdranor should have been blown off the map. The Sea of fallen stars should have a crater, etc.
Yeah I never got this...It nuked high magic area...only it didn't..low magic areas got nuked from orbit. Hell the map looks like what it is. Another world cribbing from an old map.
Something else I never got " to many Highlevel NPC's how can I do anything" is covered on like page 3 of the 3e FRCS. Covered well really.
Progress does not always mean what people think it means. I am quite involved in various environmental studies and issues. Often the environmentalist is considered against progress. Those saying it rarely realize environmentalists are interested in real progress, and not problematic dead ends.
Yes, all of us who enjoyed the Realms through...The deaths of several gods, including Mystra
The loss of Tilvertown
The Hoard invasion
The death of major characters and the throwing of Cormyr into chaos as a result
The rise of three major deities.
The death and rise of the Blackstaff
The reclusive elves making a return and a new land.
The founding of the Silver Marches. Are unable to grasp the ides of 'progress'.
*yawn* And who's throwing a tantrum at the idea of fixing the madness of the Spellplauge, which is impossible by any standard of Realms history?
Ignoring the potential to get waaaaaaayyyyyy off topic, let me keep the tempature cool...
I'm not sure how to take the your reply. Are you saying I am wrong in saying that the Realms were progressing with the changes cited above? It's hard for me to comment if I don't get the reply's context correct.
I was pretty much just agreeing with you:)
Just as a sidenote, the study cited on that website actually had the editor resign over a poor peer review process. I promise I will not bring climatology into the thread.
So it's ok to tell me "change it how you like" but when I say that about the current Realms I get "hells no, it's a travesty and I don't like it! *humph*" Basically Basically I play it their way or get out, nice.
I wonder how you could really be offended by this situation, when basically that is what the writers did to people that supported the realms previously.
I am not telling you to do anything I wouldn't have (and did do) myself. The writers rendered the realms as another entity entirely.
So it is harder to just cut and paste than it was in the past. However I guess the offensive point may lie in if I had the choice to fix the realms and have people that like the new world leave, or maintain the new world which does not serve me, I would choose to fix the realms.
The elves BTW did indeed retreat. A few came back but the vast majority indeed did. I see you do not know your basic realms lore all that well.
They did, I'm not contesting that. But then they came back to make a greater presence in Faerûn. Unlike Tolkien elves which never returned
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She asks again for a reason why not to kill Elminster, Dalamar and Mordenkainen in the Wizards three articles.)Did they giver her one besides the "You don't have a chance of getting any of us"?.... well save perhaps Dalamar.
Actually Mordenkainen said that she could take any two of them, and if he meant him and El, then yeah, Dalamar was a footnote.* :-)
The thing was, it goes back to that bit about the Chosen being (questionably sane**) individuals. Elminster believes in spreading new magic, if haphazzardly. The Simbul believes that such things are dangerous. To me it goes back to how they all interpret 'protect magic' El believes by spreading it far and wide, it keeps a 'one shot wonder' spell from unbalancing things, while she believes if you remove all traces, and kill the witnesses, it serves the same goal.
Kind of how Elminster moves against the Red Wizards and Manshoon slowly, and thus increases the magical lore as they (and their surrogates) discover new spells to counter each other, and yet she just wants to level Thay and rebuild it.** Khelben looks to a more ordered approach of spreading it compared to either of them. (Even Blackstaff confirms this, he sacrifices himself to restore a mythal tainted city to promote the study and learning of magic.)
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When it comes to why they changed the Realms but not other settings, the other settings had way less development than the Realms. Sure, Dark Sun had some changes after novels. But I always saw the two box sets, which described before and after, as options. It's not like the character creation process is different depending on when you want to play.
Eberron is an even younger setting. It was designed with non-traditional races in mind. I'm sure there was lore they developed, but there is no way they piled on as many years of novels and supplements as the Realms had. So there was little reason to do the clean break they did with FR.
I'm not saying I agree with how they made the clean break that they did. I'm just saying I can see why they thought they needed one, to make it more accessible to new players. On the other hand, Forgotten Realms never grabbed me. So I don't really have a horse in that race.
I do like how Paizo is developing Golarion. A fairly static "present". There are earth shattering events in Golarion, they are called adventure paths. But they are not assumed to have occurred in most products. (I know there are a few exceptions.) A group that fails at Second Darkness can allow a disaster as bad as the Spell Plague to occur. But that's up to the particular group and GM how they want to play that out.
I've come to the conclusion that advancing metaplots is bad for settings. It was terrible for Traveller, terrible for World of Darkness, and terrible for Forgotten Realms.
When it comes to why they changed the Realms but not other settings, the other settings had way less development than the Realms. Sure, Dark Sun had some changes after novels. But I always saw the two box sets, which described before and after, as options. It's not like the character creation process is different depending on when you want to play.
Eberron is an even younger setting. It was designed with non-traditional races in mind. I'm sure there was lore they developed, but there is no way they piled on as many years of novels and supplements as the Realms had. So there was little reason to do the clean break they did with FR.
Eberron was set to get a similar make over and time jump. Plans changed however, which honestly pissed Realms players off as they listened to the Eberron players outcry ( mostly due to poor FR sales)and switched plans before the product hit print. Something they outright refused to do with FR, even though the outcry was toxic before the product shipped.
Just a slight correction - Mystra wasn't the only one with Chosen Ones. Other gods could have them too - Fzoul was a chosen of Bane for example...
Eberron was set to get a similar make over and time jump. Plans changed however, which honestly pissed Realms players off as they listened to the Eberron players outcry ( mostly due to poor FR sales)and switched plans before the product hit print. Something they outright refused to do with FR, even though the outcry was toxic before the product shipped.
I understand that a time jump was planned, but I doubt the changes were going to be very major. So reverting back probably required minimal work on the Eberron books. Whereas they had already prepped the FR changes in the Grand History book and likely would have had to greatly rework FR just before release.
But I'm the sort of person who will happily use an old setting with new rules. My Pathfinder game is based on 2nd edition era Planescape. It doesn't seem too hard to run a 4E game in the 1E era FR. But I guess it depends on what you consider highly important to the game. While I like the idea of a dozen kinds of elves culturally, I'm good with only one set of player modifiers that covers all elves.
As I said though, I'm more of a detached observer. My favorite D&D settings are Dark Sun, Planescape, and Spelljammer. But I like Earthdawn and Talislanta better than most of those. Depending on the week.
I still really hope Monte is working on Planescape for 2012. ;)
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Eberron was set to get a similar make over and time jump. Plans changed however, which honestly pissed Realms players off as they listened to the Eberron players outcry ( mostly due to poor FR sales)and switched plans before the product hit print. Something they outright refused to do with FR, even though the outcry was toxic before the product shipped.
One of the most toxic things (preparing for the jump) to me was the slaughter of the Drow pantheon.
Ignoring the entire resolution of 'Brown Elves good, Black Elves irredemably evil' mess, the first book or two ended on a high point. You still had a (dark) elven goddess of redemption, and she also became a goddess for CN and even some NE types due to absorbing Vhae-his-name's portfolio and power. That made for some interesting development.
Especially after Lisa Smedman's treatment of Elistraee's clerics in the Lloth reborn pentad. She did a really good job of protraying good
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Just a slight correction - Mystra wasn't the only one with Chosen Ones. Other gods could have them too - Fzoul was a chosen of Bane for example...
In the original <grognard mode set to on> Realms, the concept was that Mystra's Chosen held part of her power. She was the only deity that needed them, and they served her, albiet in different ways. (The founder of the Cult of the Dragon, IIRC was a Chosen in need of mental health leave.)
Other deitys having Chosen was a later innovation. One I kind of disagreed with. I don't remember if it's been shown that Mystrul had Chosen, or if this was an innovation of his reincarnated self.
Mystra and Azurth were two of Mystrul's chosen. I do not recall if she had any others, but it seems likely.
I agree with you on allowing other gods to have chosen. It made little sense. But then even when they did, they had one, she has about 12.
Just a slight correction - Mystra wasn't the only one with Chosen Ones. Other gods could have them too - Fzoul was a chosen of Bane for example...In the original <grognard mode set to on> Realms, the concept was that Mystra's Chosen held part of her power. She was the only deity that needed them, and they served her, albiet in different ways. (The founder of the Cult of the Dragon, IIRC was a Chosen in need of mental health leave.)
Other deitys having Chosen was a later innovation. One I kind of disagreed with. I don't remember if it's been shown that Mystrul had Chosen, or if this was an innovation of his reincarnated self.
Well, having a need for chosen is not anyhow connected with the ability to create them. I think that there wasn't anything ever preventing the other gods from having their chosen, but it should be noted that most of the gods also loathe to part with their power, for most don't have much to spare, it's hard to renew and easy to steal/lock away/destroy when invested elsewhere.
Eberron was set to get a similar make over and time jump. Plans changed however, which honestly pissed Realms players off as they listened to the Eberron players outcry ( mostly due to poor FR sales)and switched plans before the product hit print. Something they outright refused to do with FR, even though the outcry was toxic before the product shipped.
Source? And since the novels never effected the campaign setting, a time jump wouldn't be all that much change to begin with. And what exactly were the FR sales that quarter, or even that year? That sounded like a fact where as I'm rather sure it's your opinion that FR sales were down.
What I find funny is that for all the 4E Realms hating the setting has received the MOST amount of attention from WotC since 4E launch. In addition to the original material (FRCG, FRPG, and the Scepter Tower of Spellgard adventure) there has been consistant Dragon/Dungeon articles including a monthy article from Ed depicting special people, events, and quirks that have inspiried hours of enjoyable reading. The installment of Neverwinter Campaign Guide and all the (mostly) free download LFR adventures, and the novel line seeming to go strong..... I'm not seeing a huge decline here. At least from a consumer's point of view. This is, of course, soley based on Realms material released to date.
As for the Chosen, I don't think it should EVER have been a template for PCs to obtain in 3E. This, to my belief, is the reason we got additional Chosen of other Gods. The outcry of "Well THEY get a Chosen template, why can't I?!" mentality brought us two separate "official" templates; Bane and Denier. Honestly, it should've remained a purely NPC/Enemy template or just written into monster stat blocks. OR write offical Chosen templates that pertained to all the Greater Gods.
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Source? And since the novels never effected the campaign setting, a time jump wouldn't be all that much change to begin with. And what exactly were the FR sales that quarter, or even that year? That sounded like a fact where as I'm rather sure it's your opinion that FR sales were down.
Eberron was set to get a similar make over and time jump. Plans changed however, which honestly pissed Realms players off as they listened to the Eberron players outcry ( mostly due to poor FR sales)and switched plans before the product hit print. Something they outright refused to do with FR, even though the outcry was toxic before the product shipped.
Can't link (stupid firewalls here) but James Wyatt's post about backing away from the jump can be found on EN world.
Edit: Also from Keith Baker's blog, May 4th 2008 "After much discussion, the decsion was made not to advance to timeline for Eberron."
What I find funny is that for all the 4E Realms hating the setting has received the MOST amount of attention from WotC since 4E launch. In addition to the original material (FRCG, FRPG, and the Scepter Tower of Spellgard adventure) there has been consistant Dragon/Dungeon articles including a monthy article from Ed depicting special people, events, and quirks that have inspiried hours of enjoyable reading. The installment of Neverwinter Campaign Guide and all the (mostly) free download LFR adventures, and the novel line seeming to go strong..... I'm not seeing a huge decline here. At least from a consumer's point of view. This is, of course, soley based on Realms material released to date.
If it makes half the money it did before the new setting I'll eat my hat. Let me ask you just how active is the 4e FR boards? Lat I looked it was toxic and dying. You said yourself in this very thread they are Nealy dead. And thats not because more folks buy and ply it, that is because less folks do so.
More active players NEVER means less active fans, less active message boards and less talk about the product.
"To busy playing to talk about it" No way, that's a flawed dodge if I ever saw one. No company wants active users not to talk about the product. And no gamer worth his salt will not talk about his game, system, last game or fav world to another gamer. Much less on line.
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Honestly, it should've remained a purely NPC/Enemy template or just written into monster stat blocks. OR write offical Chosen templates that pertained to all the Greater Gods.
One of the great things about Pathfinder/3.X was what, to me, was verisimilitude - that is all creatures in all areas ran under (basically) the same rules. A template was a template, regardless of the base creature. A type was a type. Spells were spells. Swords were swords... and had their own sizes.
In 4E, that verisimilitude shattered. Monsters work one way, NPCs another, and PCs yet another. Gods are nothing more than epic monsters. There are epic-level minions. There's a level of abstraction inherent to the 4E system that says "players cannot ever do the things that monsters do and vice-verse". It's not even based on creature type. Monsters as statted up in the monster manual will never be player characters, and no player character can imitate what they do.
To some, that's fine. To others (such as myself) that's not really cool. That's one of the (but by no means the only) reason(s) that Wizards lost me. I do play 4E (I'm in the middle of two campaigns now, though I play them less frequently), but I'm not really into it nearly as much as Pathfinder because in Pathfinder, I know that rules work the same way. I might not be able to do something in a particular campaign, or perhaps a particular alignment prohibits me from doing X or gaining Y: that's fine. But there's no real reason that if I can make a drow character running around in drow society, gaining power like the drow, that my character cannot imitate the other drow characters running around drow society gaining power like the drow. Substitute "minotaur" or "gnome" or (now) "human" in that sentence, and you've got the exact same problem, to me.
Again, in particular campaigns, these restrictions make sense. When the entire game system is set up to make such things impossible, that's when the world gets kind of "iffy" for me.
As for "They have the Chosen Template, why can't I?" I've only ever seen three Chosen from other gods, and only one other template (Bane, although I thought someone else mentioned another). Those other Chosen were mentioned to be: a Chosen of Eilistraee (who was an NPC, and also a Chosen of Mystra, and the only one of the seven sisters who was a drow, and was only ever mentioned once, IIRC), a Chosen of Deneir (who was an NPC, and the focus of a series of books), and a Chosen of Bane (who was an NPC and a villain).
I have not seen, in games I've played, online in debates, or in any other format, any sort of clamoring for more Chosen (one hypothetical "help me build it, if it ever exists" thread aside). It was my understanding that the templates (two or three that there were) were not for the player to go "Ooh, I want, gimme", but for the DM to go "you know, I wonder what would happen if Fzoul lost his favor with his god" or other campaign issues. I've not seen the kind of clamor you claim in players. Heck, in one campaign, I even created my own templates, set them up as attainable goals, let my players know how to attain them, and let them play as they saw fit, and I had one guy actually go after it. He then proceeded to RP the daylights out of it, and not use any of its powers, just in case his deity needed them. So, in my experience, it's been exactly the opposite of what you claim.
ANYWAY: I really think the complete derailment here has gotten to a core issue, that Wizards abandoned the people who'd spent a vast amount of money on them, and did so pretty harshly. This means that 5E would be a difficult sell, at best, to these burned folks.
From what I have heard, when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the setting much to the chagrin of many Dark Sun fans.Let me correct you:
"When when WotC converted Dark Sun to 4e, they returned it to the era before the Prism Pentad novels, which drastically altered the horrible changes TSR made to the setting much to the happiness and utter joy of many Dark Sun fans."
Nobody liked Prism Pentad.
You didn't "correct" anything from what Roman said.
very vocal minority
Probably not.
(And "progress". LOL.)
And my goal is to keep the Realms firmly planted in the better direction it has gone these last 3 years.
"Better direction", you´re kidding, right?
Ya know, there were reasons these changes happend and it's not because some random guys said to themselves "Hmm.....we don't like this setting as is, lets change it!" but probably read what a multitude of people felt about the setting and saw it's decline during the 3E era and said "If we want this to be our MAIN campaign setting for 4E, we should probably appeal to a broader base and spread out instead of a niche group of people.
Well, I assume this "niche group" is actually larger than the FR 4E supporter camp.
And it's unfortunate that you feel you can't participate in the current Realms even though the lore is all still there, the Gods (mostly) are still there, and the world is still the Realms, dispite your personal views.
I don´t know, but this FR 4E don´t feel like the Realms anymore. Maybe its the annihilation, or almost annihilation, of entire pantheons (Drow, Duergar, ...) and nations, the switching of continents across planes (Maztica - Abeir), earth motes (or whatever they are called - obviously inspired by wow), the nonsensical and inconsistant storyline of the events that culminated in the spellplague, the hatred against well known and loved characters or ...
These changes are arbitrary and feel so forced, it would have been better, if they had created a new setting and implemented some of these ideas there (many of them aren´t bad per se but simply don´t fit into the realms).| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rather long aside about the difference between 4E mentality and a 3.X/Pathfinder one
** spoiler omitted **...
I agree with what you wrote in the spoiler. Verisimilitude and or simulationism may or may not be the right terms to summarize them, but yes, the factors you describe are some of the major reasons why I do not play 4E. They are not the only reasons - things like lack of class progression diversity, more metagame references (encounter is NOT a defined a unit of time) and others also matter a great deal to me, but the foregoing are definitely extremely important.
If WotC wanted to get me to buy into the 5th edition, they would have to change their design philosophy and at the very least return to the 3.X/Pathfinder philosophy or even go further in that direction. Fluff is important to me too, but, as far as I am concerned, rules design philosophy is absolutely vital.