Why on earth do you believe that he would be able to bypass all three damage reduction types?A bite attack deals bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage. That's all three damage types, if he selects a bite attack for Feral Combat Training.
Wow, didn't know that. It sounds extra weird. But ok, point taken.
Still disagree strongly on the rest though.
The flurry of blows bit is essentially a side benefit and not meant to be vastly powerful. The idea is you can use your claws/ bite/ tail in place of a monk weapon.
So if you can make 4 attacks in your flurry of blows as a monk you could make them with your bite attack instead of the monk attack. The main benefit for this is you can bypass various types of DR (bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing) and still use your amulet of mighty fists. You can also benefit from any other abilities associated with your natural weapons, for example if you had an alchemist with a tentacle he could use the grab ability with the tentacle.
Nasty
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NastyThe flurry of blows bit is essentially a side benefit and not meant to be vastly powerful. The idea is you can use your claws/ bite/ tail in place of a monk weapon.
So if you can make 4 attacks in your flurry of blows as a monk you could make them with your bite attack instead of the monk attack. The main benefit for this is you can bypass various types of DR (bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing) and still use your amulet of mighty fists. You can also benefit from any other abilities associated with your natural weapons, for example if you had an alchemist with a tentacle he could use the grab ability with the tentacle.
No the real nasty part this feat also gets rid of the limitation on Greater Magic Fang on your natural attacks.
Now just get one casting of it (or magic weapon) and apply it to your unarmed attacks, which now applies it to EVERY attack you make now.clarification: The changed greater magic fang to only work on a single natural attack (1 claw OR 1 bite Or the other claw) per casting. With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.
Saves you a fortune in potions/castings and does in 1 action what used to take 3+ rounds to totally buff up.
NastyThe flurry of blows bit is essentially a side benefit and not meant to be vastly powerful. The idea is you can use your claws/ bite/ tail in place of a monk weapon.
So if you can make 4 attacks in your flurry of blows as a monk you could make them with your bite attack instead of the monk attack. The main benefit for this is you can bypass various types of DR (bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing) and still use your amulet of mighty fists. You can also benefit from any other abilities associated with your natural weapons, for example if you had an alchemist with a tentacle he could use the grab ability with the tentacle.
No the real nasty part this feat also gets rid of the limitation on Greater Magic Fang on your natural attacks.
Now just get one casting of it (or magic weapon) and apply it to your unarmed attacks, which now applies it to EVERY attack you make now.clarification: The changed greater magic fang to only work on a single natural attack (1 claw OR 1 bite Or the other claw) per casting. With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.
Saves you a fortune in potions/castings and does in 1 action what used to take 3+ rounds to totally buff up.
If it works the way they are implying, it's no big deal, you will use only one kind of attack anyway.
With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.
You can only take Feral Combat Training once, and it only applies to one natural weapon.
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If it works the way they are implying, it's no big deal, you will use only one kind of attack anyway.NastyThe flurry of blows bit is essentially a side benefit and not meant to be vastly powerful. The idea is you can use your claws/ bite/ tail in place of a monk weapon.
So if you can make 4 attacks in your flurry of blows as a monk you could make them with your bite attack instead of the monk attack. The main benefit for this is you can bypass various types of DR (bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing) and still use your amulet of mighty fists. You can also benefit from any other abilities associated with your natural weapons, for example if you had an alchemist with a tentacle he could use the grab ability with the tentacle.
No the real nasty part this feat also gets rid of the limitation on Greater Magic Fang on your natural attacks.
Now just get one casting of it (or magic weapon) and apply it to your unarmed attacks, which now applies it to EVERY attack you make now.clarification: The changed greater magic fang to only work on a single natural attack (1 claw OR 1 bite Or the other claw) per casting. With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.
Saves you a fortune in potions/castings and does in 1 action what used to take 3+ rounds to totally buff up.
It's actually a bigger deal then you think.
Magically increasing the to hit and damage of a natural attack required you to get a casting of Magic Fang per attack you had.1 casting for left claw
1 casting for right claw
1 casting for bite
1 casting for unarmed strike
This is 4 rounds that you are standing on the sideline waiting before you can jump into the fight (since it's only a 1 minute/level spell). Most fights don't even last that long.
Or you had to get a HIGH level druid to cast the greater version on you (or sell you multiple potions) every day and spend a fortune to keep your buffs up. Those potions are not cheap at all either (the cheapest version is 750gp a pop) and you need 4 a day just to keep up.
It's even worse if you wanted to make them permanent (42K gold vs 10.5K gold with this bonus).
Unlike other martial characters you can't just go down to the magic mart and buy a +5 set of claws you have to pay attention to the time and expense for this.
This will save a fortune in gold and actions.
With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.You can only take Feral Combat Training once, and it only applies to one natural weapon.
No, u can take once for each type of natural attack.
If it works the way they are implying, it's no big deal, you will use only one kind of attack anyway.NastyThe flurry of blows bit is essentially a side benefit and not meant to be vastly powerful. The idea is you can use your claws/ bite/ tail in place of a monk weapon.
So if you can make 4 attacks in your flurry of blows as a monk you could make them with your bite attack instead of the monk attack. The main benefit for this is you can bypass various types of DR (bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing) and still use your amulet of mighty fists. You can also benefit from any other abilities associated with your natural weapons, for example if you had an alchemist with a tentacle he could use the grab ability with the tentacle.
No the real nasty part this feat also gets rid of the limitation on Greater Magic Fang on your natural attacks.
Now just get one casting of it (or magic weapon) and apply it to your unarmed attacks, which now applies it to EVERY attack you make now.clarification: The changed greater magic fang to only work on a single natural attack (1 claw OR 1 bite Or the other claw) per casting. With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.
Saves you a fortune in potions/castings and does in 1 action what used to take 3+ rounds to totally buff up.It's actually a bigger deal then you think.
Magically increasing the to hit and damage of a natural attack required you to get a casting of Magic Fang per attack you had.1 casting for left claw
1 casting for right claw
1 casting for bite
1 casting for unarmed strikeThis is 4 rounds that you are standing on the sideline waiting before you can jump into the fight (since it's only a 1 minute/level spell). Most fights don't even last that long.
Or you had to get a HIGH level druid to cast the greater version on you (or sell you multiple potions)...
For the record, "Claws" is ONE natural attack type.
And as my fellow there answered, it makes no diference, you cast it on bite and when you get to 15th level monk you can bite the guy seven times, cause THAT makes sense...
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It's actually a bigger deal then you think.
Magically increasing the to hit and damage of a natural attack required you to get a casting of Magic Fang per attack you had.1 casting for left claw
1 casting for right claw
1 casting for bite
1 casting for unarmed strikeThis is 4 rounds that you are standing on the sideline waiting before you can jump into the fight (since it's only a 1 minute/level spell). Most fights don't even last that long.
Or you had to get a HIGH level druid to cast the greater version on you (or sell you multiple potions) every day and spend a fortune to keep your buffs up. Those potions are not cheap at all either (the cheapest version is 750gp a pop) and you need 4 a day just to keep up.
It's even worse if you wanted to make them permanent (42K gold vs 10.5K gold with this bonus).
Unlike other martial characters you can't just go down to the magic mart and buy a +5 set of claws you have to pay attention to the time and expense for this.This will save a fortune in gold and actions.
Normally people get greater magic fang "unarmed strike" and it applies to all the attacks in their flurry. There was never a need for 4 castings of it (as you pretend) since you can't use natural attacks along side flurry. Now, with this feat, they can get greater magic fang "bite" and still only have one casting of it and still have it apply to all their attacks.
So no, it isn't a big deal.
No, standard MONKS would just get it cast once and be done with it.
Druids would need it 3-4 times,Natural weapon rangers would need it 3-4 times,
Animal Companions would need it 3-4 times,
Beast Totem Barbarians would need it 3-4 times,
Dragons would need it 6-7 times,
random creatures/summons would need it 3-4 times,
Non-Standard monks with natural attacks would need it 3-4 times.
This feat combo grants the trick that ONLY regular monks had to everyone who needs it.
edit at @xum, read greater magic fang again. It states one magic weapon not one weapon type. It will only affect a SINGLE claw per casting. Makes it expensive and time consuming to enchant your natural weapons.
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a druid or ranger of the appropriate level would get greater magic fang cast. one action. applies +1 to ALL natural attacks. bite/claw/fang/tail/wing, whatever. you would never see a 7th level druid wasting 4 rounds on a minute per level buff when they can cast an hour per level buff at the beginning of the day.
a monk could take greater magic fang/weapon and have it cast on their fist at 8th level and get a +2 to his attacks because he can repeatedly use the same enchanted fist/kneed/forehead in his flurry each time.
No, u can take once for each type of natural attack.With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.You can only take Feral Combat Training once, and it only applies to one natural weapon.
Feats that you can take multiple times say that you can take them multiple times.
Feats that you can take multiple times say that you can take them multiple times.No, u can take once for each type of natural attack.With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.You can only take Feral Combat Training once, and it only applies to one natural weapon.
Only when there are "possible" stackable effects, like weapon focus. When it's clear that you can take'em, they don't bother stating that.
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Only when there are "possible" stackable effects, like weapon focus. When it's clear that you can take'em, they don't bother stating that.Feats that you can take multiple times say that you can take them multiple times.No, u can take once for each type of natural attack.With this change it will affect your unarmed strikes which bounce it onto every natural attack you have this feat on.You can only take Feral Combat Training once, and it only applies to one natural weapon.
Not always true. Please see exotic Weapon Proficiency
Only when there are "possible" stackable effects, like weapon focus. When it's clear that you can take'em, they don't bother stating that.
Feats that you can take multiple times say that you can take them multiple times.
Can you give an example?
Can you give an example?Only when there are "possible" stackable effects, like weapon focus. When it's clear that you can take'em, they don't bother stating that.
Feats that you can take multiple times say that you can take them multiple times.
Sure.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/varisian-tattoo
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Penetrating Strike (Combat)
Your attacks are capable of penetrating the defenses of some creatures.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +1, 12th-level fighter, proficiency with weapon.
Benefit: Your attacks made with weapons selected with Weapon Focus ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction. This feat does not apply to damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—).
When they use that statement, is to avoid confusion and stackable effects from happening. (except in the case of Exotic weapon)
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Can you give an example?Only when there are "possible" stackable effects, like weapon focus. When it's clear that you can take'em, they don't bother stating that.
Feats that you can take multiple times say that you can take them multiple times.
Sure.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/varisian-tattoo
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Penetrating Strike (Combat)
Your attacks are capable of penetrating the defenses of some creatures.Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +1, 12th-level fighter, proficiency with weapon.
Benefit: Your attacks made with weapons selected with Weapon Focus ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction. This feat does not apply to damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—).
When they use that statement, is to avoid confusion and stackable effects from happening. (except in the case of Exotic weapon)
It appears to be more of an edit or intent difference with the UC book. Since extra mercy, martial weapon proficiency, exotic weapon proficiency, and rapid reload all state that you can take them multiple times with different (mercy/weapon).
Some of the reason that I hate splat books, sometimes the editing is just not up to the same level. If the intent was to allow multiple natural weapons, then they should edit it to keep it consistent with the core.
Yeah, well. It's what me and my friends say, We love Paizo, they made the impossible and made us enjoy the game once more, and improved everything wizards did, but their edition and wording sucks. Lack of consistency in all books, that's why they have to work a lot in FAQs.
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It stacks with flurry. It's clear cut if you read the natural attack rules.
Otherwise this feat, wich already has a steep pre-req, is pretty damn useless.
Think of it this way, if you are NOT a monk, and you have Natural Attacks and Imp. Unnarmed Strike with all Two-weapon fighting feats, you already CAN make all your Unnarmed attacks AND Natural attacks, without any feats. What this feat does, is allow you to do what EVERY otherclass already can.
Per the Core on combining natural attacks and weapon attacks:
PRD on Natural Weapons[/url]]You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
If you are two weapon fighting, you can already (with out this feat) combine the two. A monk doing flurry is already considered to be using two-weapon fighting. I see that this feat allows the monk to use the natural attack that they have this feat on as a normal flurry weapon. Otherwise, do you apply the two-weapon fighting penalties twice? That seems very harsh.
It stacks with flurry. It's clear cut if you read the natural attack rules.
Otherwise this feat, wich already has a steep pre-req, is pretty damn useless.
Think of it this way, if you are NOT a monk, and you have Natural Attacks and Imp. Unnarmed Strike with all Two-weapon fighting feats, you already CAN make all your Unnarmed attacks AND Natural attacks, without any feats. What this feat does, is allow you to do what EVERY otherclass already can.
Per the Core on combining natural attacks and weapon attacks:
PRD on Natural Weapons[/url]]You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.If you are two weapon fighting, you can already (with out this feat) combine the two. A monk doing flurry is already considered to be using two-weapon fighting. I see that this feat allows the monk to use the natural attack that they have this feat on as a normal flurry weapon. Otherwise, do you apply the two-weapon fighting penalties twice? That seems very harsh.
Humm, that got me confused.
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a druid or ranger of the appropriate level would get greater magic fang cast. one action. applies +1 to ALL natural attacks. bite/claw/fang/tail/wing, whatever. you would never see a 7th level druid wasting 4 rounds on a minute per level buff when they can cast an hour per level buff at the beginning of the day.
a monk could take greater magic fang/weapon and have it cast on their fist at 8th level and get a +2 to his attacks because he can repeatedly use the same enchanted fist/kneed/forehead in his flurry each time.
Look at it again, you can cast it once and get a +1 to all your attacks or use the level based version and get a +5 to all attacks with that single weapon (which is why you'd use the greater version instead of the regular magic fang) for x hours per day.
At 20th level that +1 is next to worthless against AC's in the 40's and you'd want the +5 instead. Doing that reduces you to using just 1 natural weapon so you'd only get that +5 on 1 attack per round.With this feat allowing you to add your natural attacks to a flurry/monk unarmed strike you would get that +5 to every attack from your flurry of blows AND your natural attacks.
Look at it this way;
Your example 8th lvl monk would get 4 attacks that round with a +2 from GMW/F while punching for bludgeoning damage.
That same monk who also had a bite attack added to it from Feral Combat would get 5 attacks a round at a +2 from GMW/F (4 punches for bludgeoning and a 5th bite attack for B/P/S)
This is the difference, before this the bite wouldn't have been included until the feat and you could never add that +2 to it without directly casting GMF on it.
As for all the comments of being able to flurry with just the bite really depends on the final ruling on how flurry works with Natural Attacks.
If you just get your regular number of FoB's then yes this is a great option, however if you get to make the standard # of FoB's plus the extra attacks from mixing natural attacks in then it's a horrible choice. That option would cost you all the extra attacks you get from those natural weapons.
Just so I know, how long/how many FAQs does it take to get an official ruling? And will they just post it here or what?
Just so I know, how long/how many FAQs does it take to get an official ruling? And will they just post it here or what?
How Long is the wait?
- Unknown, depends if this topic generates enough discussion to get dev attention.How many FAQs to get dev attention?
- I've seen FAQs come from small numbers and high numbers, it really depends on how urgent the matter is viewed as. In my opinion, its probably just a clarification so it might take a little time.
How will I know if the topic is FAQ'd?
- Often a dev will post in this thread, but keep checking the Ultimate Combat FAQ periodically - it doesn't appear to have a section in the FAQ just yet though.
Flurry isn't a normal attack, keep that in mind. No other class can gain +5 to their BAB just for performing a full attack.
Actually it is... "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action." Pretty cut and dry here.
Monks just have a class ability that improves their full attack action. This is like saying: no other class should can get a bunch of extra damage dice just for attacking enemies (any action) while flanking them [sneak attack]
Its just a class ability...
varisian-tattoo
Power Attack (Combat)
Penetrating Strike (Combat)
Benefit: "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the feat's Special line."
Special: "This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once"
Varisian Tattoo, Power Attack, and Penetrating Strike do not say you can take them more than once, so you cannot take them more than once. (For Power Attack and Pen Strike, they wouldn't do anything extra anyway.)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency says you can take it multiple times for multiple weapons.
Feral Combat Training does not say you can take it more than once, so you cannot.
A monk doing flurry is already considered to be using two-weapon fighting.
No. A Flurry is an extraordinary ability that allows the monk to gain an extra attack as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. He could also pick up a couple daggers and fight with two weapons normally like everyone else. (And by doing so, not gain any of the other benefits of Flurry)
Also, the Combat chapter is in error.
In the Bestiary under Natural Attacks it says:
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "The bolded part of the sentence is, I believe, incorrect; a fragment left in the rules from an earlier draft. Additional attacks made with natural weapons while you wield a manufactured weapon are treated as secondary attacks (and thus get a -5 penalty on attack rolls; a penalty that can be offset by Multiattack) but do NOT suffer additional penalties as if they were off-hand weapons."
The bolded part he is replying to is "In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties."
varisian-tattoo
Power Attack (Combat)
Penetrating Strike (Combat)
Benefit: "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the feat's Special line."
Special: "This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once"
Varisian Tattoo, Power Attack, and Penetrating Strike do not say you can take them more than once, so you cannot take them more than once. (For Power Attack and Pen Strike, they wouldn't do anything extra anyway.)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency says you can take it multiple times for multiple weapons.
Feral Combat Training does not say you can take it more than once, so you cannot.
You are obviously wrong.
As you said "wheter or NOT you can take it more than once"
So you are saying if it doesn't state anything it's NOT!? Sorry but, no.
You are obviously wrong.
Lets look at the feats in the Core rulebook.
Which ones state you can take them multiple times?
Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Extra Ki, Extra Lay On Hands, Extra Mercy, Extra Performance, Extra Rage, Fleet, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization.
Which ones state you can not take them multiple times?
None of them.
So you allow every single feat in the core rulebook to be taken multiple times?
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A monk doing flurry is already considered to be using two-weapon fighting.No. A Flurry is an extraordinary ability that allows the monk to gain an extra attack as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. He could also pick up a couple daggers and fight with two weapons normally like everyone else. (And by doing so, not gain any of the other benefits of Flurry)
Also, the Combat chapter is in error.
In the Bestiary under Natural Attacks it says:
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."James Jacobs (Creative Director): "The bolded part of the sentence is, I believe, incorrect; a fragment left in the rules from an earlier draft. Additional attacks made with natural weapons while you wield a manufactured weapon are treated as secondary attacks (and thus get a -5 penalty on attack rolls; a penalty that can be offset by Multiattack) but do NOT suffer additional penalties as if they were off-hand weapons."
The bolded part he is replying to is "In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties."
Until added in the errata I feel free to take his ruling with a grain of salt. It may be the intent, but as current, it is not what the rules say, and thus the way that PFS is played.
that being said, I often like his soft rulings and use them as house rules, but this is not one that I would use.
Lets look at a bab 12 TWF, ITWF dual short sword user with a bite.
How would a full attack go normally? (not working in stats)
+10 short sword, +10 short sword (twf), +5 short sword, +5 short sword(itwf), +0 Short sword, Bite (+?)
Would that bite be at +7 (bab of 12, -5 for natural attack, better then their last 3 attacks) or -5 (0 for last attack, -5 for natural attack)?
Or would they just work the bite into the normal attack chain in place of one of the last two short sword attacks?
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You are obviously wrong.Lets look at the feats in the Core rulebook.
Which ones state you can take them multiple times?
Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Extra Ki, Extra Lay On Hands, Extra Mercy, Extra Performance, Extra Rage, Fleet, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization.Which ones state you can not take them multiple times?
None of them.So you allow every single feat in the core rulebook to be taken multiple times?
You know, I do find it fascinating that extra channel does not allow you to take it multiple times.
You are obviously wrong.Lets look at the feats in the Core rulebook.
Which ones state you can take them multiple times?
Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Extra Ki, Extra Lay On Hands, Extra Mercy, Extra Performance, Extra Rage, Fleet, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization.Which ones state you can not take them multiple times?
None of them.So you allow every single feat in the core rulebook to be taken multiple times?
Those that have diferent pre-req, are allowable.
Like Feral Combat training.Although it's weapon focus, it's for each natural weapon.
Until added in the errata I feel free to take his ruling with a grain of salt. It may be the intent, but as current, it is not what the rules say, and thus the way that PFS is played.
But since the Bestiary and the Core Rulebook conflict, and the Bestiary is the newer book, wouldn't that count as RAW?
Anyway, I think the point was for a guy with a greatsword and a bite to not take -10 on his greatsword for TWF without feats.
varisian-tattoo
Power Attack (Combat)
Penetrating Strike (Combat)
Benefit: "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the feat's Special line."
Special: "This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once"
Varisian Tattoo, Power Attack, and Penetrating Strike do not say you can take them more than once, so you cannot take them more than once. (For Power Attack and Pen Strike, they wouldn't do anything extra anyway.)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency says you can take it multiple times for multiple weapons.
Feral Combat Training does not say you can take it more than once, so you cannot.
You are obviously wrong.
As you said "wheter or NOT you can take it more than once"
So you are saying if it doesn't state anything it's NOT!? Sorry but, no.
I'm not sure who is on what side of the "take multiple feat" discussion, but it is an inarguable fact that you CAN take feats more than once, they just can't stack unless its description says so. Page 113 in your players handbook
I copied this straight from the book -
"Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in
the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat
more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated
otherwise in the description."
So you can take improved initiative 12 times if you want, you just only get the benefits once. The benefit of combat training isn't something that "stacks," since it would affect a different natural weapon each time. So the way its currently worded, it CAN be taken multiple times and function for a different natural weapon each time. You can't use the "precedent" of how other feats are worded to rule on how new feats will work since feat wording in general is always a designer work in progress.
I hope I helped and didn't make things more confusing? I also know that no one will agree with each other till a designer steps in and lays the law down so there isn't a lot of use in going back and forth :D
I think the feat is meant to allow natural weapons to be used as part of a flurry of blows not in addition to. Although I would really appreciate an official ruling.
Personally I think it's a cool little feat that isn't going to change the game in any significant way but will allow some thematically cool attacks. I like the idea of my low level socerer monk flurrying with his claws and possibly using rend at the end of it.
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I'm not sure who is on what side of the "take multiple feat" discussion, but it is an inarguable fact that you CAN take feats more than once, they just can't stack unless its description says so. Page 113 in your players handbook
You're reading that wrong. It doesn't say that you can take the same feat more than once, only that if you have the same feat more than once, it doesn't stack unless the feat specifically says that it does.
We already know that there are certain, specific feats that you can take more than once, such as weapon focus. Feats that you can take multiple times have that noted in the Special section within the feat entry. As similarly shown by weapon focus.
Look at it again, you can cast it once and get a +1 to all your attacks or use the level based version and get a +5 to all attacks with that single weapon (which is why you'd use the greater version instead of the regular magic fang) for x hours per day.
At 20th level that +1 is next to worthless against AC's in the 40's and you'd want the +5 instead. Doing that reduces you to using just 1 natural weapon so you'd only get that +5 on 1 attack per round.With this feat allowing you to add your natural attacks to a flurry/monk unarmed strike you would get that +5 to every attack from your flurry of blows AND your natural attacks.
Look at it this way;
Your example 8th lvl monk would get 4 attacks that round with a +2 from GMW/F while punching for bludgeoning damage.
That same monk who also had a bite attack added to it from Feral Combat would get 5 attacks a round at a +2 from GMW/F (4 punches for bludgeoning and a 5th bite attack for B/P/S)This is the difference, before this the bite wouldn't have been included until the feat and you could never add that +2 to it without directly casting GMF on it.
As for all the comments of being able to flurry with just the bite really depends on the final ruling on how flurry works with Natural Attacks.
If you just get your regular number of FoB's then yes this is a great option, however if you get to make the standard # of FoB's plus the extra attacks from mixing natural attacks in then it's a horrible choice. That option would cost you all the extra attacks you get from those natural weapons.
Did i miss a ruling on This feat that says it treats the weapons as unarmed strikes? This no more allow all your natural attacks to benifit from The +5 casting of GMW than a weapon being a monk weapon allows it to benift from GMW at all.
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That's part of the Feral Combat Training feat, specifically "While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
Since gmw is a spell effect that augments an unarmed strike (if unarmed strike is the chosen target), then it would apply to the natural weapon selected by the Feral Combat Training feat.
Since you guys are a pond of knowledge...
How would the attacks work during these assumptions:
* Fighter with BAB of 11 (= 3 main hand attacks)
* TWF,ITF,GTWF feats taken
* Weapons are unarmed strikes (no monk flurry)
* We have one bite and two claws as natural weapons
(ignore str bonuses etc)
How would his attack chain look like? Would it be like this:
1st mainhand attack +9
2nd mainhand attack +4
3rd mainhand attack -1
1st offhand attack +9
2nd offhand attack +4
3rd offhand attack -1
1st claw ???
2nd claw ???
1st bite ???
Would be deeply grateful if you could explain this to me.
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
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Since you guys are a pond of knowledge...
How would the attacks work during these assumptions:
* Fighter with BAB of 11 (= 3 main hand attacks)
* TWF,ITF,GTWF feats taken
* Weapons are unarmed strikes (no monk flurry)
* We have one bite and two claws as natural weapons
(ignore str bonuses etc)
How would his attack chain look like? Would it be like this:
1st mainhand attack +9
2nd mainhand attack +4
3rd mainhand attack -1
1st offhand attack +9
2nd offhand attack +4
3rd offhand attack -1
1st claw ???
2nd claw ???
1st bite ???Would be deeply grateful if you could explain this to me.
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
Well, assuming it's unarmed strikes made with knees, elbows, feet, sure. If it's unarmed strikes made with fists, then you couldn't use the claw attacks as well. So, assuming it's made with elbows...
Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4
The big thing here is that either you're using an amulet of mighty fists, which is expensive and slow to enhance your attacks, or you're wielding two enhanced weapons in each hand and your natural attacks aren't getting any benefit. Non-monks don't get to apply all those enhancement spells to their unarmed attacks.
This 11th level fighter could have had a +5 weapon to hit and damage if he only needed one. Using unarmed strikes/natural weapons, with the amulet, he's at +3. And he's not getting all that strength bonus that he would've gotten with a two-hander. His off hand and natural attacks are getting 1/2 his str, and his main hand is only getting strength. At 11th level, a fighter could have a 26ish str assuming he's focusing in damage. Base of +8 so a two-handed fighter would potentially get 36 damage from strength off his three attacks - and more power attack benefit. The same strength score would net this fighter 48 damage in total from all nine attacks. Not bad, except that dr is applied three times as often.
So, everything's a tradeoff :p
And hopefully I did all my math right. Oh, this fighter could take the multiattack feat and change the claw/claw/bite to +7/+7/+7
Since you guys are a pond of knowledge...
How would the attacks work during these assumptions:
* Fighter with BAB of 11 (= 3 main hand attacks)
* TWF,ITF,GTWF feats taken
* Weapons are unarmed strikes (no monk flurry)
* We have one bite and two claws as natural weapons
(ignore str bonuses etc)
How would his attack chain look like? Would it be like this:
1st mainhand attack +9
2nd mainhand attack +4
3rd mainhand attack -1
1st offhand attack +9
2nd offhand attack +4
3rd offhand attack -1
1st claw ???
2nd claw ???
1st bite ???Would be deeply grateful if you could explain this to me.
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
Well, assuming it's unarmed strikes made with knees, elbows, feet, sure. If it's unarmed strikes made with fists, then you couldn't use the claw attacks as well. So, assuming it's made with elbows...
Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4The big thing here is that either you're using an amulet of mighty fists, which is expensive and slow to enhance your attacks, or you're wielding two enhanced weapons in each hand and your natural attacks aren't getting any benefit. Non-monks don't get to apply all those enhancement spells to their unarmed attacks.
This 11th level fighter could have had a +5 weapon to hit and damage if he only needed one. Using unarmed strikes/natural weapons, with the amulet, he's at +3. And he's not getting all that strength bonus that he would've gotten with a two-hander. His off hand and natural attacks are getting 1/2 his str, and his main hand is only getting strength. At 11th level, a fighter could have a 26ish str assuming he's focusing in damage. Base of +8 so a two-handed fighter would potentially get 36 damage from strength off his three attacks - and more power attack benefit. The same strength score would net this fighter 48 damage in total from all nine attacks. Not bad, except that dr is applied three times as often.
So, everything's a tradeoff :p
And hopefully...
Thanks Magic! Perfect explaination :) And yes the fighter was just an example nothing that I really plan on doing (the build I was thinking of actually is a monk variant, albeit he doesn't have flurry of blows since his archetype removed that :p So no full str bonus on the off hand attacks unless I get the feat for it :)
/T
Now this thread adds more thoughts..
Since people mentioned the synthesist I had to check that a bit. Now this got me to wonder the following:
As a synthesist with the eidolon "imbued" with myself I can still use my regular weapons attacks + Eidolons natural weapon attacks, right?
I will quote the text about the synthesist and eidolons:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
Also does that mean that I can use my own armors then I also get the bonus to armor that the eidolon gives?
To me it appears that the armor bonus gets replaced with the eidolons armor bonus and natural AC as I read the quote below:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
What would happen of you just lets say have a monk and should get your wisdom bonus as AC. Does this AC add to the AC as normal? To me it appears it should according to the first quote "While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear."
Next question... the text says "The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks" I assume this means that if I have lets say 3 primary attacks and then have TWF/ITWF and GTWF feats that means I at that point have 6 attacks 3 primary and 3 offhands. Does that mean that I can only count on more natural attack (due to the eidolons max nr of attack being 7 at lvl 19-20). I assume this is the way it will be so then it's natural to ask if I would benefit more by taking 3 primary weapon attacks and then 4 natural attacks to reach the limit of 7 attacks?
If so what would the to hit me assuming these conditions:
BAB 15
3 Primary weapon attacks
3 Primary natural weapon attacks
1 Secondary natural weapon attack
1st Weapon (Primary) attack: +15 (Full str bonus)
2nd Weapon (Primary) attack: +10(Full str bonus)
3rd Weapon (Primary) attack: +5 (Full str bonus)
1st Natural (Primary) attack: +15 (Full str bonus)
2nd Natural (Primary) attack: +15 (Full str bonus)
3rd Natural (Primary) attack: +15 (Full str bonus)
4th Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Half str bonus)
Have I understood this correctly? :)
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat): "You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
Natural Attacks: "Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5."
So the claw/claw/bite should be at +6 each. (BAB 11, -5 secondary Nat Atk)
Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat): "You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
Natural Attacks: "Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5."
So the claw/claw/bite should be at +6 each. (BAB 11, -5 secondary Nat Atk)
Thanks for the correction Grick.. so the -5 penalty doesn't come based on the -2 WTF penalty that you get? ie 11-2-5?
Also are my other assumption correct regarding the natural attacks?
Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat): "You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
Natural Attacks: "Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5."
So the claw/claw/bite should be at +6 each. (BAB 11, -5 secondary Nat Atk)
To answer one of my questions:
Found this in the FAQ:
Remember that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).
So the results should be:
BAB 15
3 Primary weapon attacks
3 Primary natural weapon attacks
1 Secondary natural weapon attack
1st Weapon (Primary) attack: +15 (Full str bonus)
2nd Weapon (Primary) attack: +10(Full str bonus)
3rd Weapon (Primary) attack: +5 (Full str bonus)
1st Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Full str bonus)
2nd Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Full str bonus)
3rd Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Full str bonus)
4th Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Half str bonus)
/T
Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat): "You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
Natural Attacks: "Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5."
So the claw/claw/bite should be at +6 each. (BAB 11, -5 secondary Nat Atk)
which means with multi-attack feat (if allowed, not in PFS)
you would be at +9 for each natural attack? so equal to your two primary weapon attacks.
Remember that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).So the results should be:
BAB 15
3 Primary weapon attacks
3 Primary natural weapon attacks
1 Secondary natural weapon attack1st Weapon (Primary) attack: +15 (Full str bonus)
2nd Weapon (Primary) attack: +10(Full str bonus)
3rd Weapon (Primary) attack: +5 (Full str bonus)
1st Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Full str bonus)
2nd Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Full str bonus)
3rd Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Full str bonus)
4th Natural (Secondary) attack: +10 (Half str bonus)/T
Remember that natural weapons combined with weapons attacks only get half str bonus unless the synthesist has some special ability so ALL those natural attacks are at 1/2 STR.
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Main hand +9/+4/-1
Off hand +9/+4/-1
Claw/Claw/Bite +4/+4/+4Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat): "You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."
Natural Attacks: "Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5."
So the claw/claw/bite should be at +6 each. (BAB 11, -5 secondary Nat Atk)
which means with multi-attack feat (if allowed, not in PFS)
you would be at +9 for each natural attack? so equal to your two primary weapon attacks.
Minor quibble, you CAN have multi-attack in PFS but only if a legal source gives it to you (right now that would be the Natural Weapon rangers 10th lvl bonus feat and all animal companions 9th level bonus feat).
Also the natural attacks in your example would all be at +9 BaB and 1/2 Strength bonus & Power attack bonus on damage.
so the -5 penalty doesn't come based on the -2 WTF penalty that you get?
Correct. The TWF penalties only apply to the main and off hands, natural attacks are at full BAB -5.
Also are my other assumption correct regarding the natural attacks?
If you mean the synthesist posts, I haven't even tried to get my head around that archetype. I'm just hoping it doesn't come up in any of my games. =)
which means with multi-attack feat ... you would be at +9 for each natural attack? so equal to your two primary weapon attacks.
Correct. Assuming Multiattack is table-legal and you meet the prerequisites, your secondary natural attacks would be at -2 penalty instead of -5. This puts them at the same penalty as TWF with feat+light weapon, but they are otherwise unrelated.