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I wrote about this in another thread, but it morphed into a new question. In the text on fighting with natural weapons, it states:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
But with the Feral combat feat, it states:
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
So what does "with" mean? Does that mean a monk can uses his natural weapons in place of his fists when making the flurry, or does that mean he makes the natural attacks in addition to his flurry?
The answer to this will determine if a monk taking levels in alchemist or dragon sorcerer is a really smart idea or a really dumb idea. As a monk can make claw attacks with his hands and flurry with his feet it's not that there's anything else wrong with this set-up, it's just determining which interpretation's correct.
So thoughts?
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The answer to this will determine if a monk taking levels in alchemist or dragon sorcerer is a really smart idea or a really dumb idea. As a monk can make claw attacks with his hands and flurry with his feet it's not that there's anything else wrong with this set-up, it's just determining which interpretation's correct.So thoughts?
I admire your attempts to get to the bottom of this series of questions:
As far as this question goes, I believe you will use these natural attacks in combo with their fists. Natural attacks are always "extra" on top of other weapons the creature may have (such as the fist or the kick).
In my reading you will use the natural attack form with the unarmed strikes, although the natural attack will now be considered secondary (-5 and .5 str) per the combat chapter on combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
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Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Considering the benefit of the feat, its pretty clear that it intends the use of the natural weapon for the flurry of blows. Essentially adds the natural weapon to the list that flurry of blows can be applied to- it does not allow another attack with the natural weapon after a full flurry of blows. That's not granted by this feat, I mean.
It allows you to treat the selected natural weapon as if it were a monk weapon. Thus a 1st level monk with feral weapon combat (bite) could bite twice when using flurry of blows.
Hmm.. its possible, but I'm not 100% on this interpretation. Wouldn't that have been easier to communicate?
Good question.
If you can now flurry with natural weapons then the feat is really broken. Bad execution, that is why I don't like splatbooks.
Anyway I hit FAQ. Do so too.
Good question.
If you can now flurry with natural weapons then the feat is really broken. Bad execution, that is why I don't like splatbooks.
Anyway I hit FAQ. Do so too.
You have to take feral combat once for each natural attack type you have available. Once for bite, once for claws, etc. Not seeing an immense amount of power from this.
Reading through the feat, it primarily lets you just use unarmed strike stuff with a certain natural weapon.
So you could have a bite attack, and use 'stunning fist' with the bite.
The special I think is to clarify that you can use it in any situation that you could use an unarmed strike, including a flurry of blows. A little specific thing to override that more generic 'monks can't flurry with natural attacks' rule.
So, siding with Night skies. I think if they wanted it to be that you could flurry and get natural attacks it would have been worded something like "if you flurry, you also get an attack from your selected natural weapon." Monks have that 'with' language a lot. A zen archer can flurry 'with' a bow, an empty hand monk can flurry 'with' improvised weapons, etc.
Seems kinda a crummy feat to me, unless you had some extra effect on your natural attack like poison- Of course, I guess the regular use of this feat is more appealing if you don't get the amped up unarmed damage like a monk.
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So, if you had two claws, you get two attacks at lvl one. With this feat you would get 3 due to Flurry?
On the other hand, if you had two claws and a bite, you have 3 attacks, if you flurry with claws you get two attacks plus the flurry for a third attack but you cannot use your bite even as a secondary?
Good question.
If you can now flurry with natural weapons then the feat is really broken. Bad execution, that is why I don't like splatbooks.
Anyway I hit FAQ. Do so too.
Please explain this one? I would be doing less damage than my unarmed at higher levels with little in the way of bonuses for doing so.
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It stacks with flurry. It's clear cut if you read the natural attack rules.
Otherwise this feat, wich already has a steep pre-req, is pretty damn useless.
Think of it this way, if you are NOT a monk, and you have Natural Attacks and Imp. Unnarmed Strike with all Two-weapon fighting feats, you already CAN make all your Unnarmed attacks AND Natural attacks, without any feats. What this feat does, is allow you to do what EVERY otherclass already can.
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Good question.
If you can now flurry with natural weapons then the feat is really broken. Bad execution, that is why I don't like splatbooks.
Anyway I hit FAQ. Do so too.
Wow, broken, right. 2 extra attacks (claws) at -5 for 2 feats? If you take ALL of the feat into account, it's a good feat. Granting full strength, augmenting the damage from the natural attack to match the flurry, then yeah, it's GOOD.
But I don't see a lot of monks that have natural attacks out there, so, you already need to be a race which has natural attacks (not easily done) and get 2 feats to make use of them with your flurry, with all those penalties? Tell me where this is broken again?
Normally a monk can flurry with any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon.
The feat allowing him use the selected natural weapon with his flurry of blows class feature means he can flurry with any combination of unarmed strikes, attacks with a special monk weapon, or the selected natural weapon.
"A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
The Feral combat feat replaces the first part of that statement, not the second part. "With" = "as part of", not "in addition to."
Look at the first part of the feat, it allows you to apply effects that augment unarmed strikes. Making a flurry of blows with the natural weapon is the intent. Making regular non-flurry attacks in addition to your normal flurry of blows doesn't make any sense in that context. Flurry wouldn't be augmenting your claws, but just happening alongside them. You're doing martial arts (flurry) with the natural weapon: flurry of claws. Not doing martial arts, then randomly doing normal claw attacks afterward.
Think of it this way, if you are NOT a monk, and you have Natural Attacks and Imp. Unnarmed Strike with all Two-weapon fighting feats, you already CAN make all your Unnarmed attacks AND Natural attacks, without any feats. What this feat does, is allow you to do what EVERY otherclass already can.
Irrelevant comparison. A monk can do the same thing with those feats.
Normally a monk can flurry with any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon.
The feat allowing him use the selected natural weapon with his flurry of blows class feature means he can flurry with any combination of unarmed strikes, attacks with a special monk weapon, or the selected natural weapon.
"A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."
The Feral combat feat replaces the first part of that statement, not the second part. "With" = "as part of", not "in addition to."
Look at the first part of the feat, it allows you to apply effects that augment unarmed strikes. Making a flurry of blows with the natural weapon is the intent. Making regular non-flurry attacks in addition to your normal flurry of blows doesn't make any sense in that context. Flurry wouldn't be augmenting your claws, but just happening alongside them. You're doing martial arts (flurry) with the natural weapon: flurry of claws. Not doing martial arts, then randomly doing normal claw attacks afterward.
Think of it this way, if you are NOT a monk, and you have Natural Attacks and Imp. Unnarmed Strike with all Two-weapon fighting feats, you already CAN make all your Unnarmed attacks AND Natural attacks, without any feats. What this feat does, is allow you to do what EVERY otherclass already can.Irrelevant comparison. A monk can do the same thing with those feats.
Well then, it isn't an irrelevant comparison at all. Cause for the purpose of flurry, he HAS those feats.
Why wouldn't flurry augment your claws? If it augments Unnarmed Strikes it augments your natural attacks.
"as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
Seems pretty clear cut to me, that it DOES augment and it's in ADITION.
Otherwise, the last line of the feat about the flurry wouldn't even be necessary.
Why on earth would the monk be the ONLY one that does not get natural attacks in adition to his flurry!? Specialy when he spends 2 feats to do so, AND has to have those natural attacks in the first place?
Well, if you are trying to make Feral Combat useless, then go ahead and do so, but that's not how it's suposed to work, by the way I read it.
Well then, it isn't an irrelevant comparison at all. Cause for the purpose of flurry, he HAS those feats.
Your comparison is saying a class that spends two feats can do things a monk can't do with zero feats. Well, yeah. A monk that spends two feats can do the same thing.
A fighter using TWF and a fighter flurrying are not the same.
A monk using TWF and a monk flurrying are not the same.
Otherwise, the last line of the feat about the flurry wouldn't even be necessary.
Sure it would. Flurry is neither a feat, nor an effect. If it wasn't called out specifically, you would be unable to flurry with natural weapons.
Why on earth would the monk be the ONLY one that does not get natural attacks in adition to his flurry!?
There is no class that gets natural attacks in addition to Flurry.
Any class can make natural attacks in addition to two-weapon fighting. Including the monk.
No, Feral Combat Training is not a game-breaking must-have feat. Because it's in a splatbook. Splatbooks are, by design, generally less powerful so that people who don't buy them don't get screwed. It's for flavor, so a crazy bite-monk can Stunning Bite, Flurry of Bites, Hex Bite, Scorpion Bite, etc.
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No, Feral Combat Training is not a game-breaking must-have feat. Because it's in a splatbook. Splatbooks are, by design, generally less powerful so that people who don't buy them don't get screwed. It's for flavor, so a crazy bite-monk can Stunning Bite, Flurry of Bites, Hex Bite, Scorpion Bite, etc.
Splatbook feats and abilites are not by any streatch of the imagination less powerful than core ones, never were, never will be. If anything they are more powerful.
It's not game breaking, I agree with you, if you use my interpretation of the feat.
If you use yours that you must spend 2 feats to do Half Strength damage and Lower damage dice, just to be "cool" then it is game breaking, but the otherway around.
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The answer to this will determine if a monk taking levels in alchemist or dragon sorcerer is a really smart idea or a really dumb idea. As a monk can make claw attacks with his hands and flurry with his feet it's not that there's anything else wrong with this set-up, it's just determining which interpretation's correct.So thoughts?
I admire your attempts to get to the bottom of this series of questions:
As far as this question goes, I believe you will use these natural attacks in combo with their fists. Natural attacks are always "extra" on top of other weapons the creature may have (such as the fist or the kick).
In my reading you will use the natural attack form with the unarmed strikes, although the natural attack will now be considered secondary (-5 and .5 str) per the combat chapter on combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Now this leads to two other questions that needs to be asked regarding how the penalty for mixing iterative and natural weapons change with this feat.
Since for monks when they flurry they have an explicit rule stating:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
Does this over rule the secondary attack penalty that natural attacks have or vice versa? (I believe that the monk rules win since they are the most specific but it is still a valid question).
Second is the penalty to hit with from being secondary attacks. Again monks have a special exception on their unarmed strikes:
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Since a natural attack is treated as an unarmed strike for effects that enhance unarmed strikes and this is obviously an enhancing effect does this remove the -5 penalty for being a secondary attacks as well?
Personally I believe it does but an argument can be made either way.Finally the root cause of all these questions is the Monk class, every issue we are having is because of the exceptions built into this one corner case class. It throws off the default rules in the game that work fine for every other class but fall apart here since it's trying to do something the rules explicitly don't allow for anyone else.
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LOL. Tell me you don't believe that, please. . . You realize that the term power creep is explicitly from splat books, right?
Which Paizo is trying to limit. But I can't find a quote other than from Alpha, so you may continue LOLling.
Does this over rule the secondary attack penalty that natural attacks have or vice versa?
Flurry rules will apply. You're using the natural weapon with flurry of blows, and all successful attacks made with flurry of blows get full strength. If he made a normal full attack without flurry, it would follow the natural attack rules. (but see below)
Since a natural attack is treated as an unarmed strike for effects that enhance unarmed strikes and this is obviously an enhancing effect does this remove the -5 penalty for being a secondary attacks as well?
I guess that depends. Is the monk Unarmed Strike class feature an "effect"? If so, then not only do you get full strength bonus on all claws, but you can claw with your hands full, and deal more damage with your claws according to the unarmed damage table.
I think that's ridiculous. I think that feature is neither a feat, nor an effect, nor is it part of flurry, so Feral Combat Training will not affect a claw-monk making a normal full attack with his claws.
But if class features are not effects, then that means you can't use Ki Pool to allow your claws to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR.
So aside from the "extra full attack in addition to flurry" issue, the feat could still use clarification, so FAQ away, my brothers.
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You have to take feral combat once for each natural attack type you have available. Once for bite, once for claws, etc. Not seeing an immense amount of power from this.Good question.
If you can now flurry with natural weapons then the feat is really broken. Bad execution, that is why I don't like splatbooks.
Anyway I hit FAQ. Do so too.
Mix in a couple of synthesist levels, get a free trip + poison with each successful bite.
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To be honest. I think the "right way" to read this feat would be to allow it in adition of FoB but threating it as secondary attacks and not increasing it's base damage die, like the monk does for flurry.
Do creatures with natural attacks even have unarmed strikes? Based on the natural attack rules in the Bestiary, I'm not too sure. It says "Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes..."
Plus, the real advantage of this feat is not flurry... it's all the other things that apply to unarmed strikes, like elemental fist, stunning fist, style feats like Dragon Style that only work for unarmed strikes, etc. Now you can do this with your natural attacks.
Do creatures with natural attacks even have unarmed strikes? Based on the natural attack rules in the Bestiary, I'm not too sure. It says "Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes..."
Plus, the real advantage of this feat is not flurry... it's all the other things that apply to unarmed strikes, like elemental fist, stunning fist, style feats like Dragon Style that only work for unarmed strikes, etc. Now you can do this with your natural attacks.
I agree with you on that second part. But then it becomes a THREE feat tax for creatures with natural attacks. Weapon focus, Imp. Unnarmed and then Feral Combat Style. Not sure it's worth it.
And the part for monks should be useful, that's all I'm saying.
Well Weapon Focus isn't that big a tax, while yes, Improved Unarmed Strike may appear to be, but it's also a requirement for many of the feats and abilities you'd want to apply to your natural attacks anyway.
Plus, wouldn't you get the unarmed strike damage of the monk too? It does say "as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
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Do creatures with natural attacks even have unarmed strikes? Based on the natural attack rules in the Bestiary, I'm not too sure. It says "Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes..."
The way I am interpretting the feral combat feat: a single form of natural attack is added to the list of weapons a monk may use with his flurry of blows. Thus, I would treat a flurry of blows with claws no differently than a flurry of blows with sai or a quarterstaff.
One advantage of flurry of blow is, the monk does not need to make all attacks with the same weapon / body part / natural attack. If, for example, I had a bite attack with a special ability, I could flurry with bite until it hit, then kick (unarmed attack) for stunning blow, then attack with a weapon (say, an adamantine kama) for a sunder.
Well Weapon Focus isn't that big a tax, while yes, Improved Unarmed Strike may appear to be, but it's also a requirement for many of the feats and abilities you'd want to apply to your natural attacks anyway.
Plus, wouldn't you get the unarmed strike damage of the monk too? It does say "as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
That's an interpretation. I always say the middle ground is better though.
To me, the way Feral Combat Training is worded, is that it allows a monk to use the selected natural attack in his or her flurry, not in addition to flurry. However, if he were to only have a bite attack for a natural weapon and use no other "weapons" during a flurry, he still only adds strength, as listed in the class feature, not the normal strength and a half for having a single natual attack, as the rules for flurry would supercede the rules for natural attack.
As for why would a monk bother, it's like why would a monk bother with any monk weapon? Their unarmed strike will outclass the damage before too long. Damage type is one reason; a monk with a bite attack deals piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage with his bite, allowing it to overcome any weapon damage type based DR. Any other monk would need at least two feats to do the same. If you're a monk and you're not striking unarmed, it's more than likely because the weapon you're using gives you something you're unarmed strike does not, something worth doing less damage for.
Rending Claws works well for such a monk, and unlike the fighter, doesn't need to take extra feats to get those numerous attacks. Feral Combat Training is niether overpowered nor useless, at least not from anything I've read here. Besides, injury poisons, like those delivered via bite attack, do not get stronger with subsequent doses; the effect just lasts longer and is harder to shake off. Besides, there are a lot of enemies that are resistent or outright immune to poison.
I thought about that, and it's still pretty useless for monks. As you said, there 'may' be reasons cause of the piercing and slashing, but that's it. Monk weapons can do that, are cheaper to enchant, easier to come by than natural attacks, deal more damage than natural attacks, they add special material to the mix and can be used 2 handed to increase power attack.
If your interpretation is the right one, I see no reason whatsoever for a monk to take this feat, expect you know, sadism.|
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Besides, injury poisons, like those delivered via bite attack, do not get stronger with subsequent doses; the effect just lasts longer and is harder to shake off.
I was looking at a bite attack from a synthesist / monk with the following evolutions:
Reach (Ex)
One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Poison (Ex)
An eidolon secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned.Eidolon poison—type poison (injury); save Fort negates; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 1 save.
The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon’s HD + the eidolon’s Constitution modifier.
For 2 additional evolution points, this poison deals Constitution damage instead. This poison can be used no more than once per round. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Trip (Ex)
An eidolon becomes adept at knocking foes to the ground with its bite, granting it a trip attack. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful bite attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the target is knocked prone. If the check fails, the eidolon is not tripped in return. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the eidolon. The eidolon must possess the bite evolution to select this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
With, at most, 8 levels in monk, I probably won't be using flurry of blows for pure dps. Flurry just allows me to get more milage out of an attack form that I've invested a lot of evolution points into.
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Well, perhaps useless for a tuned, optimized build, but that still doesn't make it useless. You don't need to be a powergamer to have a "good" and "playable" character in Pathfinder; the game's not about "winning", after all. Besides, there isn't a monk weapon that can do all three damage types at once; you'd still need multiple weapons to get past all three. Materal bypass DR would be a problem, yes, but a monk using unarmed strikes has the exact same issue. By your reasoning, a monk would be stupid to ever fight unarmed, as he can apparently do so much more wielding a monk weapon.I thought about that, and it's still pretty useless for monks. As you said, there 'may' be reasons cause of the piercing and slashing, but that's it. Monk weapons can do that, are cheaper to enchant, easier to come by than natural attacks, deal more damage than natural attacks, they add special material to the mix and can be used 2 handed to increase power attack.
If your interpretation is the right one, I see no reason whatsoever for a monk to take this feat, expect...
With the Eldritch claws feat, natural attacks are counted as magic + silver. With a pair of kamas or sais, you can cover the entire range of special materials.
And yes, the character concept is not optimized; at least, not for dps.
Well, perhaps useless for a tuned, optimized build, but that still doesn't make it useless. You don't need to be a powergamer to have a "good" and "playable" character in Pathfinder; the game's not about "winning", after all. Besides, there isn't a monk weapon that can do all three damage types at once; you'd still need multiple weapons to get past all three. Materal bypass DR would be a problem, yes, but a monk using unarmed strikes has the exact same issue. By your reasoning, a monk would be stupid to ever fight unarmed, as he can apparently do so much more wielding a monk weapon.I thought about that, and it's still pretty useless for monks. As you said, there 'may' be reasons cause of the piercing and slashing, but that's it. Monk weapons can do that, are cheaper to enchant, easier to come by than natural attacks, deal more damage than natural attacks, they add special material to the mix and can be used 2 handed to increase power attack.
If your interpretation is the right one, I see no reason whatsoever for a monk to take this feat, expect...
Why on earth do you believe that he would be able to bypass all three damage reduction types?
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"Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature." From PRD
Seem pretty clear to me. The benefit allow for natural weapons be used with Combat Styles as well as few other feats. Handy for that Troll.
As Special Monk can take this feat. Seem pretty clear, can use selected natural weapon with your flurry. IT's not that you flurry with with your natural attack. It's with separate and outside the flurry and it's only 1 extra attack as secondary. Also you can't take it more than once. SO just a single natural weapon can be used conjuction with Flurry of blows. Hardly game breaking.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The flurry of blows bit is essentially a side benefit and not meant to be vastly powerful. The idea is you can use your claws/ bite/ tail in place of a monk weapon.
So if you can make 4 attacks in your flurry of blows as a monk you could make them with your bite attack instead of the monk attack. The main benefit for this is you can bypass various types of DR (bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing) and still use your amulet of mighty fists. You can also benefit from any other abilities associated with your natural weapons, for example if you had an alchemist with a tentacle he could use the grab ability with the tentacle.
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[QUOTE="voska66
As Special Monk can take this feat. Seem pretty clear, can use selected natural weapon with your flurry. IT's not that you flurry with with your natural attack. It's with separate and outside the flurry and it's only 1 extra attack as secondary. Also you can't take it more than once. SO just a single natural weapon can be used conjuction with Flurry of blows. Hardly game breaking.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
A monk may make a flurry of blows with bite, in the same manner as he may make a flurry of blows with a special monk weapon. The selected natural attack is added to the monks special weapons list, nothing more, nothing less.
Usage of the monk weapon does not grant an extra attack beyone the flurry, neither does bite.
IT's not that you flurry with with your natural attack.
Except that's what the feat is all about. You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature. You're performing martial arts, using a natural weapon instead of an unarmed strike.
Instead of Stunning the opponent with a fist, you use your tail. Instead of flurrying with knees and elbows, you flurry with claws. You're doing the same martial arts, but using a natural weapon instead of fists.
It doesn't make any sense at all that you flurry with your hands, and then make an extra claw attack "separate and outside the flurry".
The majority of the posters in this thread agree, so I'm going to stop repeating myself. It's unlikely anything but a FAQ response will satisfy the folks who want Feral to add extra attacks, so hit that FAQ. And most importantly in your home games, run it how you want.
You have to take feral combat once for each natural attack type you have available. Once for bite, once for claws, etc. Not seeing an immense amount of power from this.Good question.
If you can now flurry with natural weapons then the feat is really broken. Bad execution, that is why I don't like splatbooks.
Anyway I hit FAQ. Do so too.
For a player, no.
For a monster with ability drain or other nasty stuff, yes.
The issue with the feat is it doesn't define how you use your natural attack with flurry. So it's wide open to all kinds of interpretation. Remeber though, it's from UC which does include Prone Shooter so the feat may be useless.
For a monster with ability drain or other nasty stuff, yes.
That's probably at the heart of it. This feat is available to PCs, but it's probably in here to legitimize some shenanigans monster, like a monk wraith or something.
Sure, the option is available to players, but in most cases will just be too much investment for too little benefit.
Of course, isn't PF making a book of non-core playable races? This feat might suddenly become more appealing then...
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IT's not that you flurry with with your natural attack.It doesn't make any sense at all that you flurry with your hands, and then make an extra claw attack "separate and outside the flurry".
I would agree with you, except all the other classes have this.
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IT's not that you flurry with with your natural attack.Except that's what the feat is all about. You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature. You're performing martial arts, using a natural weapon instead of an unarmed strike.
Instead of Stunning the opponent with a fist, you use your tail. Instead of flurrying with knees and elbows, you flurry with claws. You're doing the same martial arts, but using a natural weapon instead of fists.
It doesn't make any sense at all that you flurry with your hands, and then make an extra claw attack "separate and outside the flurry".
The majority of the posters in this thread agree, so I'm going to stop repeating myself. It's unlikely anything but a FAQ response will satisfy the folks who want Feral to add extra attacks, so hit that FAQ. And most importantly in your home games, run it how you want.
How would that work then? Do you do claw damage or monk damage. I'd guess monk damage monk damage overrides unarmed damage. I'd assume the same. Next can the natural attack feats work with Flurry. Like can you using rending during flurry? What about the bite if it's primary attack, do you apply 1.5 Str damage as you flurry with a bite?
That's why think the feat doesn't work that way. Opens too many questions. Adding one natural attack -5 to hit is simple.
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The part that I find annoying is that if you make the flurry with your natural weapons instead of alongside it, then you still lose attacks if you have more than one natural weapon.
If I have 2 claws and a bite and none of them are used along-side the flurry, then if i flurry with my bite, I'd lose the claw attacks. And if I'd get the claw attacks along with the biting flurry, then why wouldn't I get the claws alongside a foot flurry?
The rules just kind of break down when a clawed, biting monk comes into the picture. I think this might be the kind of thing where a Monk archetype designed for natural weapons might come in handy.
It doesn't make any sense at all that you flurry with your hands, and then make an extra claw attack "separate and outside the flurry".I would agree with you, except all the other classes have this.
Other classes can make natural attacks in addition to two weapon fighting. So can monks.
A Toothy Half-Orc Bard can attack with a Rapier, a Dagger, and then Bite.
A Toothy Half-Orc Monk can attack with a Rapier, a Dagger, and then Bite.
I'm guessing that the rule is you use your natural weapon in the flurry, which means it's useless unless you've got poison, rending, or some other thing that augments your natural weapons. It sucks, but it's the way that makes the most sense.
It just means that my alchemist/monk should take the master of Many Styles, forget about flurry of blows, and take two-weapon fighting and multi-attack when I have enough BAB that fighting with feet alongside my claws is better than the claws alone. It means I'll probably have to take some levels of fighter to get enough feats, though.
That all being said, a monk archetype designed around fighting with claws and bite would be really, really helpful. I think I'll write something like that up and see what Paizo think about it.
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Just to preface, I'm with Xum on this one.
The issue I'm taking with the discussion here is that almost everyone saying that the natural weapons would be used in a Flurry as if flurry of blows is not a Full Attack action but rather a separate Full Round Action that dictates what attack forms are available.
When you make a normal full attack action, you use all your attacks (including natural attacks). We know this because flurry specifically calls out that:
"Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action." [Based only on this bit of the rule, the monk can use all their attack forms including TWF & natural attacks]
"When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)." [so we now know the monk is assumed to be using TWF in a flurry and the attacks made are treated as if they had the TWF feat]
"A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks." [Finally, the rules now exclude natural attacks from combining with flurry]
If you were allowed to use natural attacks during a flurry (such as from Feral Combat, then they would made in addition to your flurry attacks. Just like they would be made in addition to any other full attack action. This is because this is how Natural Attacks work in a full attack action (which Flurry of Blows is...)
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Actually, when you point out that wording it makes a lot of sense. I still think an official ruling would be nice, but that's the ruling I'm hoping for.
Just to preface, I'm with Xum on this one.
The issue I'm taking with the discussion here is that almost everyone saying that the natural weapons would be used in a Flurry as if flurry of blows is not a Full Attack action but rather a separate Full Round Action that dictates what attack forms are available.
When you make a normal full attack action, you use all your attacks (including natural attacks). We know this because flurry specifically calls out that:
"Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action." [Based only on this bit of the rule, the monk can use all their attack forms including TWF & natural attacks]
"When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)." [so we now know the monk is assumed to be using TWF in a flurry and the attacks made are treated as if they had the TWF feat]
"A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks." [Finally, the rules now exclude natural attacks from combining with flurry]
If you were allowed to use natural attacks during a flurry (such as from Feral Combat, then they would made in addition to your flurry attacks. Just like they would be made in addition to any other full attack action. This is because this is how Natural Attacks work in a full attack action (which Flurry of Blows is...)
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Thank you. I love when someone gets my idea through. :)