Hello,
I am currently playing a Gorum Priest as part of a Kingmaker campaign. My concept is based around maximising the damage of the first attack.
Round 1:
Move to Charge Position - Move Action
Cast Enlarge Person - Standard Action
Cast Blade of Blood (PHB2) - Swift Action (Duration 1 rd/level)
Round 2:
Charge - Full Attack Action
Powerful Charge - no action (non core, Eberron, Miniatures Handbook)
Power Attack - no action
Jump + Leap Attack - as part of the move action of charge (non-core)
Channel Smite - swift action
Destructive smite - no action
Ferocious Smite - no action (Ferocious Sub-domain of Strength APG)
Vital Strike - (as part of the attack action)
When hit - activate Blade of Blood - free action? No action?
Activate Spell Storing - free action
Questions:
1) Are my action definitions correct?
2) My DM mentioned that the Destructive and Ferocious smites can only be activated as part of a "single melee attack" not a full round attack, which is the charge action. Only the other hand, charge is defined as movement plus a single attack, therefore I think that it should be possible.
3) Any other other ideas to maximise the damage?
I have not considered Rhino Rush (which would stop the channel smite and which is not really open to Clerics as we use Spell Compendium, but would fit Gorum.
I would have to ask the DM if Valorous Weapon is allowed (would this stack with Rhino Rush for 3x damage?), Spell storing is the alternative.
In higher levels True strike in round 1 will cause more damage on the first blow, but only the first...
Righteous Might will supplant Enlarge Person when he has the levels.
Awesome Smite - (Non core Complete Champion) can be good at higher levels too.
If I take a 3rd fighter level if could use the Overhandchop of the twohanded weapon fighter archtype (but see below).
Things like Weapon of Awe etc may help additionally, but I would really like to look at the situation, what can I achieve in two rounds from zero...)
Results
Level 8 (Cleric 6 Fighter 2)
3d6 (Large Greatsword)
3d6 (Vital Strike)
2d6 (Large Powerful Charge)
3d6 (Channel Smite negative Energy)
3d6 (Blade of Blood (only if hit sacrifice 5 hp)
3d8 +6 (Inflict Serious Wounds (Spell Storing))
Base strength 20 + 2 (Enlarge Person) +4 (Belt) = 26
+1 Weapon of Spellstoring
Base Attack +6
+1 through Weapon
+12 through Strength(Factor 1.5 through great sword, I assume overhand chop would add only +3 here as it changes the factor to 2 and not more)
+ 6 Power Attack
+ 12 Leap Attack (triples power attack dam w two handed weapon)
+3 Destructive Smite
+3 Ferocious Smite
For a total of
14d6 + 3d8 + 43 (of this there is a will save for half ag 3d6 + 3d8 +6 of channel smite and inflict serous wounds but this damage bypasses any damage resistance)
Expected Average Damage: 105,5
Thank you
Enlarge Person has a casting time of 1 round, like a summoning spell.
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
And you can't Vital Strike on a charge.
Toadkiller Dog wrote: And you can't Vital Strike on a charge. And for similar reasons, you can't use destructive smite with a charge either, the way I read it. Destructive Smite is a standard action all its own so can't be mixed with other actions such as charge and vital strike.
Edit: also don't forget there's a saving throw on that channel smite.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Enlarge Person has a casting time of 1 round, like a summoning spell.
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Thanks I had overlooked that, this means that I have no move action in the first round, but I can cast a full round action spell and a swift spell.
Talon Stormwarden wrote:
And for similar reasons, you can't use destructive smite with a charge either, the way I read it. Destructive Smite is a standard action all its own so can't be mixed with other actions such as charge and vital strike.
This is exactly the question.
Please note "a single melee attack" in the definition of
Destructive Smite
"You gain the destructive smite power: the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a morale bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). You must declare the destructive smite before making the attack. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier"
and in the definition of Charge:
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move."
Can this attack be a single melee attack of destructive smite and if not why not?
Toadkiller Dog wrote: And you can't Vital Strike on a charge. Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
+
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Again why can't the attack action I am using for vital strike be the attack action of the charge?
I tried to look for rulings on this but have not found any, so any reference to gmame content beyond "you can not" would be helpful.
Thanks!
Charge with Vital Strike? Not in FAQ / Errata yet but Jason Bulmahn says no, because Charge is a full round action, not an attack action.
What David said.
There is some confusing terminology in D&D/Pathfinder, where similar words are used for different concepts.
There is attack. In the context of melee combat, this is using a weapon to attempt to damage an opponent. You roll 1d20 + modifiers, and then you roll damage if you hit. There are many ways to get an attack. Charge gives you an attack. A full attack gives you one or more attacks. Cleave lets you make one or two attacks. Spring Attack includes an attack.
There is also the attack action. This is a specific type of standard action, which allows you to make a single attack.
Vital Strike specifically references using an attack action. A charge allows you to move and make an attack, not an attack action. Spring Attack is similar. What you (and many others) want is for the Vital Strike benefit to start "Benefit: When you make an attack, you can ..."
Big Django wrote: Talon Stormwarden wrote:
And for similar reasons, you can't use destructive smite with a charge either, the way I read it. Destructive Smite is a standard action all its own so can't be mixed with other actions such as charge and vital strike.
This is exactly the question.
Please note "a single melee attack" in the definition of
Destructive Smite
Etc. Domains: A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.
In addition, a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level. Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action. Cleric domains are listed at the end of this class entry.
Emphasis mine. Destructive smite doesn't say otherwise therefore it's a standard action. Same with Ferocious Smite.
James Fenix wrote: Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action.
Emphasis mine. Destructive smite doesn't say otherwise therefore it's a standard action. Same with Ferocious Smite.
Does this mean that you can not combine destructive smite with ferocious smite in a normal attack action or can you combine the two standard actions to one?
I am already combining the attack action with the smite (otherwise the smite would make no sense at all). So I should be able to double smite also, right?. And the Channel Smite for a triple smite.
udalrich wrote: What David said.
There is some confusing terminology in D&D/Pathfinder, where similar words are used for different concepts.
There is attack. In the context of melee combat, this is using a weapon to attempt to damage an opponent. You roll 1d20 + modifiers, and then you roll damage if you hit. There are many ways to get an attack. Charge gives you an attack. A full attack gives you one or more attacks. Cleave lets you make one or two attacks. Spring Attack includes an attack.
There is also the attack action. This is a specific type of standard action, which allows you to make a single attack.
Vital Strike specifically references using an attack action. A charge allows you to move and make an attack, not an attack action. Spring Attack is similar. What you (and many others) want is for the Vital Strike benefit to start "Benefit: When you make an attack, you can ..."
Thank you that helps somewhat. Though I am pretty sure that in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook there is a sentence saying charge is combining a move action and "a single melee attack". I dont have the rulebook with me right now, but I remember showing the sentence to my GM.
"A single melee attack" is the exact wording for the smites also, therefore I am somewhat surprised.
Also If you take a step back from the rules and just look at what is happening in the game, it does not make much sense to me either.
I can walk up to a monster and smite it, but I can't run up to a creature and smite it. I would think that smite would fit with better with a charge, than just slendering up (vital strike may be another matter.)
Big Django wrote: udalrich wrote: What David said.
There is some confusing terminology in D&D/Pathfinder, where similar words are used for different concepts.
There is attack. In the context of melee combat, this is using a weapon to attempt to damage an opponent. You roll 1d20 + modifiers, and then you roll damage if you hit. There are many ways to get an attack. Charge gives you an attack. A full attack gives you one or more attacks. Cleave lets you make one or two attacks. Spring Attack includes an attack.
There is also the attack action. This is a specific type of standard action, which allows you to make a single attack.
Vital Strike specifically references using an attack action. A charge allows you to move and make an attack, not an attack action. Spring Attack is similar. What you (and many others) want is for the Vital Strike benefit to start "Benefit: When you make an attack, you can ..."
Thank you that helps somewhat. Though I am pretty sure that in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook there is a sentence saying charge is combining a move action and "a single melee attack". I dont have the rulebook with me right now, but I remember showing the sentence to my GM.
"A single melee attack" is the exact wording for the smites also, therefore I am somewhat surprised.
Also If you take a step back from the rules and just look at what is happening in the game, it does not make much sense to me either.
I can walk up to a monster and smite it, but I can't run up to a creature and smite it. I would think that smite would fit with better with a charge, than just slendering up (vital strike may be another matter.)
There is no such sentence. Charge is a full round action which is a specific action type. You may have convinced the GM that a move + a standard equals a full round, and they do generally take up the same amount of time, but a full round actions is not the sum of two smaller parts. It is its own action type.
Big Django wrote:
Round 2:
Charge - Full Attack Action
Powerful Charge - no action (non core, Eberron, Miniatures Handbook)
Power Attack - no action
Jump + Leap Attack - as part of the move action of charge (non-core)
Channel Smite - swift action
Destructive smite - no action
Ferocious Smite - no action (Ferocious Sub-domain of Strength APG)
Vital Strike - (as part of the attack action)
When hit - activate Blade of Blood - free action? No action?
Activate Spell Storing - free action
I'm not sure if you can do the "Jump + Leap Attack" as part of a move action since you're making a charge. A Charge is a full-round action. As stated by others, it's not a sum of a move+standard, it's its own action. And yet, it counts as a move action for the purposes of being able to draw a weapon...hmph..
Vital Strike, as stated by others, cannot be done as part of a charge. It can only be done on a single attack action done as a standard action. You're not attacking with vital strike, your attack IS vital strike.
As far as the action required for Power Attack, Ferocious Smite, & Spell Storing, those are correct as free actions. Channel Smite is correct as a swift action. You can absolutely make a Ferocious Smite as part of the charge, but not a Destructive Smite. Consider Ferocious Strike:
"Whenever you make a melee attack..."
versus Destructive Smite:
"You gain the destructive smite power: the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack..."
When it comes time to domain abilities, unless otherwise stated they are always standard actions. So Destructive Smite based on its wording is in fact a standard action. Does this logically make sense? No. But hey, we all know that cleric domains are in need of an overhaul.
Powerful Charge is only granted to creatures of certain types (like a rhinoceros). How is it that your character has this ability and what bonus damage is being generated from it?
I can't find "Blade of Blood" anywhere... what is it?
AerynTahlro wrote: Powerful Charge is only granted to creatures of certain types (like a rhinoceros). How is it that your character has this ability and what bonus damage is being generated from it?
I can't find "Blade of Blood" anywhere... what is it?
Your confusion stems from him using old 3.5 material. Powerful Charge is a feat from Eberron and Blade of Blood is out of the Spell Compendium.
I'd post them but I don't want to cross the whole open content boundaries.
James Fenix wrote: Your confusion stems from him using old 3.5 material. Powerful Charge is a feat from Eberron and Blade of Blood is out of the Spell Compendium.
I'd post them but I don't want to cross the whole open content boundaries.
Understood.
concerro wrote: Big Django wrote: Though I am pretty sure that in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook there is a sentence saying charge is combining a move action and "a single melee attack". I dont have the rulebook with me right now, but I remember showing the sentence to my GM.
"A single melee attack" is the exact wording for the smites also, therefore I am somewhat surprised.
Also If you take a step back from the rules and just look at what is happening in the game, it does not make much sense to me either.
I can walk up to a monster and smite it, but I can't run up to a creature and smite it. I would think that smite would fit with better with a charge, than just slendering up (vital strike may be another matter.)
There is no such sentence. Charge is a full round action which is a specific action type. You may have convinced the GM that a move + a standard equals a full round, and they do generally take up the same amount of time, but a full round actions is not the sum of two smaller parts. It is its own action type. A challenge how nice! ;) May I redirect your eyes to p.198 of the core rule book where it says:
"Attacking on a charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack."
Why can't this be the "single melee attack" of destructive smite or the attack action of vital strike for that matter?
Big Django wrote:
A challenge how nice! ;) May I redirect your eyes to p.198 of the core rule book where it says:
"Attacking on a charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack."
Why can't this be the "single melee attack" of destructive smite or the attack action of vital strike for that matter?
This "single melee attack" can't be a Destructive Smite or Vital Strike for reasons that were already stated.
Destructive Smite = Standard Action that gives you a single melee attack with a bonus
Vital Strike = See Destructive Smite
Charge = Full Round Action that ends in a single melee attack (melee attack is specified so you can't try charging with a longbow...)
Charge is NOT a full round action that ends in a standard action.
AerynTahlro wrote:
I'm not sure if you can do the "Jump + Leap Attack" as part of a move action since you're making a charge. A Charge is a full-round action. As stated by others, it's not a sum of a move+standard, it's its own action. And yet, it counts as a move action for the purposes of being able to draw a weapon...hmph..
The leap attack feat says specifically that is possible. It is available as an excerpt on the wizards home page so I can probably quote it here:
Leap Attack
Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
AerynTahlro wrote:
Vital Strike, as stated by others, cannot be done as part of a charge. It can only be done on a single attack action done as a standard action. You're not attacking with vital strike, your attack IS vital strike.
As far as the action required for Power Attack, Ferocious Smite, & Spell Storing, those are correct as free actions. Channel Smite is correct as a swift action. You can absolutely make a Ferocious Smite as part of the charge, but not a Destructive Smite. Consider Ferocious Strike:
"Whenever you make a melee attack..."
versus Destructive Smite:
"You gain the destructive smite power: the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack..."
You mean I can ferocious strike and charge but not destructive smite and charge, well this makes even more sense. However note my post above regarding p.198 of the core rulebook, which says that you are making a single melee attack during a charge.
AerynTahlro wrote:
When it comes time to domain abilities, unless otherwise stated they are always standard actions. So Destructive Smite based on its wording is in fact a standard action. Does this logically make sense? No. But hey, we all know that cleric domains are in need of an overhaul.
I agree with you on that.
Big Django wrote: Hello,
Round 1:
Move to Charge Position - Move Action
Cast Enlarge Person - Standard Action
Cast Blade of Blood (PHB2) - Swift Action (Duration 1 rd/level)
Round 2:
Charge - Full Attack Action
Powerful Charge - no action (non core, Eberron, Miniatures Handbook)
Power Attack - no action
Jump + Leap Attack - as part of the move action of charge (non-core)
Channel Smite - swift action
Destructive smite - no action
Ferocious Smite - no action (Ferocious Sub-domain of Strength APG)
Vital Strike - (as part of the attack action)
When hit - activate Blade of Blood - free action? No action?
Activate Spell Storing - free action
Ok, so this can now be corrected to:
Round 1:
Cast Enlarge Person - Full round action
Cast Blade of Blood -Swift Action
Round 2
Either
Charge - special full attack action
Powerful Charge - modifies charge
Power Attack
Jump and Leap Attack - part of move action of charge through leap attack feat
Channel Smite - swift action
Ferocious Smite
Activate Blade of Blood when hit
Activate Spell Storing - free action
or
3d6 (large t-h)+ 2d6 powerful charge + 3d6 (channel) + 3d6 (Blade of Blood) + 3 (ferocious smite) + 3d8 +6 inflict serious wounds + 12 (Str) + 6 (Power Attack)+ 12 leap attack +1 weapon = 11d6 + 3d8 + 40 (of which 3d6 + 3d8 have a will save for half each) = 92 points of damage if no saves on average
walk up slowly and attack
Vital Strike
Power Attack
Channel Smite
Ferocious Smite
Destructive Smite
Activate Blade of Blood when hit
Activate Spell Storing - free action
3d6 (large t-h)+ 3d6(vital) + 3d6 (channel) + 3d6 (Blade of Blood) + 6 (Smites) + 3d8 +6 inflict serious wounds + 12 (Str) + 6 (Power Attack) +1 weapon = 12d6 + 3d8 + 31 (of which 3d6 + 3d8 have a will save for half each) = 86,5 points of damage if no saves on average
Big Django wrote:
walk up slowly and attack
Vital Strike
Power Attack
Channel Smite
Ferocious Smite
Destructive Smite
Activate Blade of Blood when hit
Activate Spell Storing - free action
3d6 (large t-h)+ 3d6(vital) + 3d6 (channel) + 3d6 (Blade of Blood) + 6 (Smites) + 3d8 +6 inflict serious wounds + 12 (Str) + 6 (Power Attack) +1 weapon = 12d6 + 3d8 + 31 (of which 3d6 + 3d8 have a will save for half each) = 86,5 points of damage if no saves on average
Close...
You can't combine Destructive Smite and Vital Strike, they're both a single attack that's done as a standard action. Pick one or the other.
The charging order looks right though.
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