I've been playing table-top RPGs for slightly over a decade now and for the most part I've played with people of at least above-average intelligence. In recent years however, since I left school, the intellect of the people I associate with now is significantly lower than what I it used to be. They're great people, which is why we're all friends, but for some reason most of them never graduated high school. Now please don't think I'm trying to call all people who didn't finish high school unintelligent, far from it, but with my specific group of friends this happens to be the case.
Over seven months ago I introduced some of my newer friends to Pathfinder. They were all thrilled with the idea and we quickly put together a group and I started running them through Serpent's Skull. Problems first started to show when the whole group was completely baffled by the words used in the player handouts and it brought the game to a halt for a whole session at one point. Problems continued when, after seven months, I am still being asked questions like "how far can I move and still take an action?" or "What does incorporeal mean?" or "As a Ranger I can cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, right?" How long should it take someone, who has the core rule book, access to the internet, and the free time to actually look at both to learn the rules or look up a word? Am I being to hard?
It's getting to a point where I am no longer having fun playing because every session I'm repeating the same rules over and over, but no one seems to be picking them up. With one exception I have to walk each person step by step through character creation and leveling. Last week, I spent an entire session essentially making characters for three of the players (who had died the previous session) because they didn't understand the book's instructions on how to make a character. And then after that I had to help the player who didn't die level from 6th to 7th because she couldn't do it herself. After seven levels of play she still hasn't figured out how to level her character. I also have to keep track of their xp totals because they can't seem to add them properly on their own, leading to some very frustrating nights where people are leveling way out of line with everyone else.
I've been entertaining the idea of just cancelling the game, but I know that they would be really upsetting to my friends, because dispite their lack of understanding of the game they are all very eager to play. Does anyone have any ideas on how to save this game? Or should I just give up? Or am I being an elitist jerk looking down on people who I should be giving more of a chance?
I've been playing table-top RPGs for slightly over a decade now and for the most part I've played with people of at least above-average intelligence. In recent years however, since I left school, the intellect of the people I associate with now is significantly lower than what I it used to be. They're great people, which is why we're all friends, but for some reason most of them never graduated high school. Now please don't think I'm trying to call all people who didn't finish high school unintelligent, far from it, but with my specific group of friends this happens to be the case.
Over seven months ago I introduced some of my newer friends to Pathfinder. They were all thrilled with the idea and we quickly put together a group and I started running them through Serpent's Skull. Problems first started to show when the whole group was completely baffled by the words used in the player handouts and it brought the game to a halt for a whole session at one point. Problems continued when, after seven months, I am still being asked questions like "how far can I move and still take an action?" or "What does incorporeal mean?" or "As a Ranger I can cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, right?" How long should it take someone, who has the core rule book, access to the internet, and the free time to actually look at both to learn the rules or look up a word? Am I being to hard?
It's getting to a point where I am no longer having fun playing because every session I'm repeating the same rules over and over, but no one seems to be picking them up. With one exception I have to walk each person step by step through character creation and leveling. Last week, I spent an entire session essentially making characters for three of the players (who had died the previous session) because they didn't understand the book's instructions on how to make a character. And then after that I had to help the player who didn't die level from 6th to 7th because she couldn't do it herself. After seven levels of play she still hasn't...
Not all of what you said necessarily even points at a lack of intelligence. But that's not what you're asking.
I've got players who forget things pretty often. Mostly new players. I've found that on average, people know what's what after 8 months of D&D experience. If it's their first time on a new system, but they have Tabletop RPG experience, they'll get it by 2 months. And expect 1-2 months for them to figure out a new character style (regular fighter plays a wizard or w/e).
Anyway. Thing that helps *me* is to keep a good ratio of players who have a good understanding of the game. So, for example, If I know 5 people who are still learning, and 3 who understand the game, I'm not running a 4-man game with people who don't get it. I'd split it into 3-2 and 2-1, that way, (self included), there are equal number of those who don't grasp the game and those who do.
Patience is a good thing, and if they're enthusiastic about it and you want to play, and you know they want to learn, then help them as long as it's bearable. Teach them. One thing I'll do with new players is run occasional solo-adventures for them, at which point they have my undivided attention. I also make them create and level their own characters, coming to me only after they've finished if they still have questions (this does a pretty good job of getting them to learn by doing, though, having examples to lead by isn't bad).
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hrm, whether someone picks up and remembers something often has something to do with the amount of continuous or close to continuous time they spend on the information. You said you guys have been playing for over 7 months now but how often do you play in that time? once a week? twice a week? once a month? And for making characters how many times have they done this? once? twice? It does take time to get these things but i have a feeling in your case it might be more than that.
I would suggest you take some actions to help your friends.
My personal suggestions would be as follows:
1) Make up a cheat sheet that includes things like 5 foot step rules, how to calculate damage and attack bonuses (and what they are) as well as common terms and specific things they are having problems with. Photocopy it and then give them it for quick reference.
2) Make sure there is enough books. I know at my table if someone is unsure of something and there isn't enough of the book with the rule in it my players will just ask me rather than checking. Having enough rules and then making them use them (reply with, check the book first) and then only answering questions that they could not answer with the book. The key to education is the road to knowledge. You are far more likely to forget something that is just given/told to you then if you have to look it up or do work to get that knowledge.
3) Reward knowledge of the rules. This is tricky but can be done but to stop it from over powering things maybe look outside the game for rewards?
4)Perhaps even limit what they can play with until they have a better grasp of those classes/feats/skills/rp and so on. Once they do have that grasp you can expand what they can use?
5) Tell them that there lack of knowledge is starting to slow the game down and make it less fun for you. Then lend them the books (if they don't have them) so they can read through them better. Maybe even set them homework? :P (does a 5 foot step provoke AOO?, can you move your full speed and then take a full attack action?)
Its a tricky situations but don't forget that it all comes down to fun. If you are no longer having fun then there is no reason for you to continue playing.
Hope this helps
Sometimes, people are just not all there in the head.
I've met a player that played a spellcaster for two years, playing once or twice a month or even more often in that time, who still didn't know how to work out spell DC and with some frequency didn't know what their spells did and picked them based on their name rather than their effects.
Get the beginners box?
The AP's tend to be reasonable sophisticated, theme and rule wise.
Maybe play a simpler dungeon bash so you can focus on the base rules.
Have them all start with the same class/race so they can ask each other about the rules. If your running canned adventure you'll have to tweak things.
(I've had players start out as half-orc/barbarians all from the same village that was under attack)
For levelling hero lab or pcgen maybe suggested but instilling a feeling for the rules first would be a better idea before using these tools.
Sounds like you need to take a step down to a beginner's level in my humble opinion. People forget that Pathfinder is a complex rules hard system with a steep learning curve, you have 20 years of experience to fall back on.
I think you need to simplify things.
1.) everyone has to level their own character, you can point out where they can find things but you cannot do the work for them. Yes this will slow things down so you need to change how and when they level.
2.) do not award experience, they are not ready for the that, when they hit a story goal as a group they gain a level, you can control the pace of the story so you can do the leveling at the end or the begining of a session (beginning is best as it lets them chat and you prep while they level).
3.) Delegate to the best player or Recruit an above average intelligence experienced player to help you.
4.) Don't be afraid to ignore or break the rule and look it up later so it does not break the pace of the game. Letting a character take more than a 5' step is not the end of the world, these are guideliens not hard and fast rules, the Paizo police are not coming to you door if you do something beyond the RAW.
Not all of what you said necessarily even points at a lack of intelligence. But that's not what you're asking.
I totally see what you mean, but if you were just to hang out with the group for an hour or two, just BSing outside of the game, you would understand.
Thing that helps *me* is to keep a good ratio of players who have a good understanding of the game. So, for example, If I know 5 people who are still learning, and 3 who understand the game, I'm not running a 4-man game with people who don't get it. I'd split it into 3-2 and 2-1, that way, (self included), there are equal number of those who don't grasp the game and those who do.
This is not an option for me unfortunately. All the people I have right now are newbs and I just don't have the room at the table even if I did have an experienced person who could play with us. This would be what I would ideally like to do though.
Patience is a good thing, and if they're enthusiastic about it and you want to play, and you know they want to learn, then help them as long as it's bearable. Teach them. One thing I'll do with new players is run occasional solo-adventures for them, at which point they have my undivided attention.
Trust me, I'm trying as hard as I can to teach and be patient. I did one on ones with two of the five people, but with the schedules of the the other three it just wasn't an option. Everyone has my number to call anytime they wish (within reason obviously) to ask me about the rules, only one person takes advantage of it though.
I also make them create and level their own characters, coming to me only after they've finished if they still have questions (this does a pretty good job of getting them to learn by doing, though, having examples to lead by isn't bad).
This is something that I actually tried to do, but it just never worked. Basically what it comes down to is I either make/level their character or we don't play because they don't have their character ready. Is this something I should put my foot down on, because it's looking like if I do I'll end up with an empty table.
You said you guys have been playing for over 7 months now but how often do you play in that time? once a week? twice a week? once a month? And for making characters how many times have they done this? once? twice? It does take time to get these things but i have a feeling in your case it might be more than that.
We've played every Wednesday since the beginning of February and we haven't missed one day of play. As for characters everyone has made at least three (up to six in some cases) at this point and the party is at 6th/7th level overall.
1) Make up a cheat sheet that includes things like 5 foot step rules, how to calculate damage and attack bonuses (and what they are) as well as common terms and specific things they are having problems with. Photocopy it and then give them it for quick reference.
I actually did that, printed up 10 copies and they have all been lost over the last 7 months. No one has requested another so I never reprinted them, but perhaps I should.
2) Make sure there is enough books.
This was actually one of the big conditions I made at the beginning, that everyone is REQUIRED to have a copy of the core rulebook. So yeah, there are enough, and usually when there are questions I do ask them to look it up on their own, unless we're in combat and they need the answer fast so we can get to the next person.
3) Reward knowledge of the rules. This is tricky but can be done but to stop it from over powering things maybe look outside the game for rewards?
I do try to do this, but I probably not all that great about it. Do you have any suggestions on specifics?
4)Perhaps even limit what they can play with until they have a better grasp of those classes/feats/skills/rp and so on. Once they do have that grasp you can expand what they can use?
Also something that I did. We basically had a party of just fighters until a level or two ago. The one guy who is catching on started playing a caster, then everyone wanted to play a caster, so I gave the option to them. Only later did I see how wrong I was.
Maybe even set them homework?
I've been seriously considering this, even gone so far as to draft some questions. I'm just wondering how effective it'll be.
Get the beginners box?
The AP's tend to be reasonable sophisticated, theme and rule wise.
Maybe play a simpler dungeon bash so you can focus on the base rules.Have them all start with the same class/race so they can ask each other about the rules. If your running canned adventure you'll have to tweak things.
(I've had players start out as half-orc/barbarians all from the same village that was under attack)For levelling hero lab or pcgen maybe suggested but instilling a feeling for the rules first would be a better idea before using these tools.
Beginner's Box even out yet?
I understand what you're saying about the APs, but in this instance I have to disagree. Serpent's Skull, to my mind, seems pretty straight forward for the first two books and Souls For the Smuggler's Shiv seemed like the perfect intro to gaming to me.
This group is pretty technophobic (myself included) so herolab and the like aren't really suited for us. But like you said learning the rules first is a better option anyway.
I wish I had thought to make them all the same race/class though. It's a bit late for that now, but that's a really good suggestion for the future.
Problems continued when, after seven months, I am still being asked questions like "how far can I move and still take an action?" or "What does incorporeal mean?" or "As a Ranger I can cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, right?" How long should it take someone, who has the core rule book, access to the internet, and the free time to actually look at both to learn the rules or look up a word? Am I being to hard?
I think you have been very patient so far, I probably would have done something long ago. Since they have been playing once a week for 7 months I think that is plenty of time to learn the rules. I myself only started almost 2 months ago (playing once a week). And while I'm far from the brightest person around, I think I've got a good understanding of the rules (though theres always something new to learn). I haven't played any tabletop rpgs before, but I've played plenty of video game rpgs if that makes a difference.
Also no the Beginner's Box won't be out until mid October.
Sounds like you need to take a step down to a beginner's level in my humble opinion. People forget that Pathfinder is a complex rules hard system with a steep learning curve, you have 20 years of experience to fall back on.
Well, more like 12 years, but who's counting ;) Seriously though, I do take your point well and I try to soften my thinking about the subject by bringing that up.
I think you need to simplify things.
Is there a way to do this with a game once its already started? Or should I just stop what we're doing now and take everyone back to the beginning?
1.) everyone has to level their own character, you can point out where they can find things but you cannot do the work for them. Yes this will slow things down so you need to change how and when they level.
While I totally agree with everything just you've said, it's not a matter of slowing the game down, it's a matter of having a game at all. I don't know if it's a real lack of intelligence or just a flat out refusal, but with one exception, my player will not do this. It's really hard to say no to friends, for me at least.
2.) do not award experience, they are not ready for the that, when they hit a story goal as a group they gain a level, you can control the pace of the story so you can do the leveling at the end or the begining of a session (beginning is best as it lets them chat and you prep while they level).
That is something I had not considered and I am kicking myself in the a$$ for it. That's a great idea, I'm not sure why I didn't even think of it. Maybe I'm the one who's lacking the intelligence.
3.) Delegate to the best player or Recruit an above average intelligence experienced player to help you.
Already got a guy for that, but unfortunately he has to spend most of his time helping his girlfriend (who you'd find a picture of in the dictionary if you looked up CLUELESS) with her character that he can't spare time for anyone else.
4.) Don't be afraid to ignore or break the rule and look it up later so it does not break the pace of the game. Letting a character take more than a 5' step is not the end of the world, these are guideliens not hard and fast rules, the Paizo police are not coming to you door if you do something beyond the RAW.
Oh I'm not the kind of person who needs everything RAW, but that's not really the issue. For example, when someone is attacking and they add their Survival skill to the roll rather then their BAB (this happened again last week. For the 4th time.) it's not a matter of RAW so much as it is understanding how the game is even played.
she couldn't do it herself.If the above mentioned 'herself' cute? If the answer is yes, then try a different kind of roleplay! :)
Oh god, don't make me gag! Not only is she already with someone (only guy at the table who "gets" the game in fact), but if we were the last two people left on earth I would gladly let the human race die out. Nuff said!
I bet if I made a Bard Archivist and named him "Derrida" no one would get it...
No, but I would and I'd appreciate you all the more for it :)
I haven't played any tabletop rpgs before, but I've played plenty of video game rpgs if that makes a difference.
Actually, everyone had played Oblivion and it was the constant Elder Scrolls talk that made me bring up Pathfinder in the first place.
I want to thank everyone that was kind enough to post a response. I hope that I don't sound too negative or like I'm just shooting people's ideas down, because I really do appreciate all the help that everyone's been trying to provide.
So earlier you said you weren't having fun, and you were only still running the game because you didn't want to let down your friends, then you said that if you were to force them to create/level their own characters they'd walk. You might want to take a stand there... as I see your situation it might be win-win, either they learn, or they stop playing and you are no longer obligated to run the game.
For a slightly less hard line approach, maybe try saying that when they get enough xp they may, if they choose, level up their character whenever they are ready. Until that point they can continue to play the character as is. Then tell them that you'd like them to level up on their own between sessions. If they have any questions, feel free to ask(in between sessions) and you'd be happy to help. If they ever ask you for help on character choices, offer advice, but always offer a choice:
"Hey, what feat should I take for my fighter?"
"Well, there aer a few good options: You could take power attack, it is a really nice damage boost, but it makes you less accurate. Weapon Focus would be good too, it is a nice simple bonus to hit, you write it down on your sheet and pretty much forget it, but hitting more is always good, or you could take Toughness, more HP is always nice, and you don't do any damage if you are dead."
"Well which would you take?"
At this point you can take a couple minutes to say that it depends most on what they want the character to be like, then show them a couple higher level options that chain off those feats, like Greater Specialization. This way you are narrowing the options for them so it's not so overwhelming, but they are still choosing. From there hopefully they can start to take the training wheels off.
Just make sure when ever they ask for advice on a build choice, present them with 2-3 options, explain them, and NEVER, EVER, decide for them.
If all else fails, they seem to really enjoy roleplaying, so if they can't figure out PF, maybe try a simpler game?
I have to say I'm confused about your relationship with these guys. You say they are not as clever as you and you made it very clear that you didn't even like one of them. So the first question I would ask myself was:
Why am I doing this? Are you only in it because you don't have any alternatives and would have to stop playing (at least for a while)? Do you really care about letting *them* down or is it about yourself? If you still want to continue the table, here's my experience:
I play with a couple of university students, each and everyone of them very clever people. Still, every now and then one of them asks seemingly stupid questions like "How many standard actions do I get per round?" and I flinch everytime I call for a ranged touch attack or a spell DC and the player in question starts browsing his sheet helplessly. But that is just the way it is! After handing out cheat sheets, grapple flow-charts, pointing them to class-optimized character sheets and almost a year into the campaign I can only give you one piece of advice:
Be patient!
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Hmm... perhaps in this case it would be a good idea to REALLY simplify the game.
Suggestion one would be to have the character play iconics. You can get pregens for several levels, and it wouldn't take too much effort on your part to revise in the missing levels. Then, when a character levels, you just hand them the next level pregen sheet and have them copy their gear over.
That way you can focus on the mechanics of the game instead of the mechanics of the character.
Suggestion two would be to schedule a game where 1/2 your game time, you just spend going over the rules. Remember, not everyone learns by hearing, so using physical objects to describe the action system might work better. For example, have some sandwiches set out. This sandwich represents your actions in combat. You can eat the whole thing with a full round action, or you can cut it in half and eat half for a standard action and the other half for a move action. ect.
Suggestion three would be to simplify, simplify, simplify. Since they're now using the pregens, you have access to their info too. So if you need to, you can just ask them to roll a d20 and calculate the results yourself. As they develop their player skills, they can start doing it themselves. But at first, go easy on terms like incoporeal, touch ac, flat-footed, and denied dexterity bonus. Simplify. and use more common words. It's like a ghost, and your weapons go through it instead of incorporeal. Roll to hit, instead of roll your touch ac attack. He wasn't ready for your attack, instead of flat footed.
One thing I do in my games is that I keep a 3x5 card for each player with their vital stats like attack bonuses, perception, init bonus, various ac's, and cmb/cmd mods. That way, I can move things along if a player is taking too long to find their touch ac. If you go pregen, you should be able to do this easily.
So earlier you said you weren't having fun, and you were only still running the game because you didn't want to let down your friends, then you said that if you were to force them to create/level their own characters they'd walk. You might want to take a stand there... as I see your situation it might be win-win, either they learn, or they stop playing and you are no longer obligated to run the game.
It's not so much that they would walk as it is they would complain until I helped them. And it's not like I'm picking things for them it's that I have to tell them what they get at each level for their class. This many skill points, this ability, etc...
NEVER, EVER, decide for them.
Never have, never will.
If all else fails, they seem to really enjoy roleplaying, so if they can't figure out PF, maybe try a simpler game?
I asked already, recommending both Savage Worlds and Call of Cthullhu and no one was interested.
Try running a 'training' one-off. Design some characters and/or encounters for them that showcase the basic rules and concepts. Saving throws, combat maneuvers, basic battlefield movement. Think of it as a sort of tutorial. You could even use that list of basic rules to highlight things as they come into play.
"Alright, so this orc is going to try and trip you. He rolled a 13. To know if he succeeded, you need to figure out your CMD. That's 'Combat Maneuver Defense'. See it here on your sheet? You have a CMD of 15, so he failed. Lucky for you! Also, because he doesn't have the right feat, you're going to get what's called an 'attack of opportunity' on him."
Stuff like that, round out the basics. Even if you think you're being too simplistic, sometimes simple is what's needed. But avoid being condescending, don't throw too much at them at once, and be sure to anticipate and answer questions. Even if you have to dedicate one of your weekly game sessions to rules training, the rest of your sessions will be much better off for it.
I have to say I'm confused about your relationship with these guys. You say they are not as clever as you and you made it very clear that you didn't even like one of them. So the first question I would ask myself was:
Why am I doing this? Are you only in it because you don't have any alternatives and would have to stop playing (at least for a while)? Do you really care about letting *them* down or is it about yourself?
Not all your friends need to be as clever as you, sometimes being a good person is enough. That's the case with most of the people I'm playing with. The person who I dislike is the girlfriend of the only person who "gets" the game and it's held at their house, so I'm stuck with her even though I really wish she were somewhere else. There is a lack of gaming groups in my area which is why I had to make one with people who aren't really suited to Pathfinder. I needed to justify my AP subscription somehow. And I know that my friends would be disappointed if I stopped now that they're into it.
So what I'm seeing is a lot of support for BASIC roleplay. Is there a way to modify a game in the middle of a campaign to simplify it or am I just going to have to scrap it and start from scratch?
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Having just one smart player in your group is helpful to a GM. My group consists of a fairly intelligent guy, with no personality, a woman, who is seriously missing more than a few screws, a kid who also isn't very bright (I've never met someone who has managed to kill themselves in magic the gathering before this guy), and myself.
What ends up happening is that I end up doing all the work in the group, as I have the most personality and the closest thing of the players anyone could call a "clue", though I think I have the most fun, even if sometimes it has to be at the expense of the other players.
The woman in that group is the most frustrating to deal with, she has a tendency of not seeing the picture properly, last time we had done a pretty thorough job exploring this dungeon. We even went over it once more using detect magic since we found an illusion wall at one point.
Well, she wanted to go over the place again using detect magic, despite the fact that we just did that, instead of letting me sit down to translate the books we had found along the way (Kaede Nagase, archaeologist, alchemist, artist, walking armory, and ninja, not that I'd actually introduce that character as a ninja, at your service), as it had become painfully obvious to the rest of us what our next step was. Even the kid thought she was being obnoxious.
I've never been in this position (I most recently was this person, though I pick up the game pretty quickly), however I just had an idea you could try, though I don't know whether it would work
You could try doing a short (10-20 minute) tutorial at the start of each session, followed up with enemies who use that mechanic heavily during the session. For example: Do a tutorial on grappling, and then during the session itself use creatures that focus heavily on grappling, to help cement it in their minds.
Do a different one each week (say ranged combat, melee, traps etc), and maybe the repetition will help it stick. The advantage of this is depending on how your campaign is set up you may be able to work it in directly without having to change the overall campaign much at all, just the individual encounters.
So what I'm seeing is a lot of support for BASIC roleplay. Is there a way to modify a game in the middle of a campaign to simplify it or am I just going to have to scrap it and start from scratch?
I've never really associated with 'non-clever' people before, so I may not be the best person to ask ;)
Seriously... What does 'incorporeal' mean?? Have they never read a comic or watched a movie??? Or do they mean, 'What does noncorporeal mean MECHANICALLY?'
THAT I could understand.
Question one: You've been playing for 12 years.... How much of that was 3.x/pathfinder?
If most of it... then you are WAY ahead of the curve on this game. Most of it comes as second nature.
My group has been gaming for 15 years, but only the last ONE of that has been pathfinder. We NEVER played 3.x and there was a MASSIVE rules shock when we started here... If your used to the game, you may not realize just HOW MANY RULES there really ARE!!!
After a year of every week playing, we're STILL looking up the cheat sheets to check on what provokes AoO...
Question 2: Have they ever played ANY Rpgs before?? If No, then the rules are probably even MORE intimidating! We at least had a firm foundation of D&D 2E to compare things to, but if they have NOTHING... It means it will take longer...
7 months is a LONG time... but still.
As for simplifying the game... Yeah, I think there's LOTS you can do.
FIRST: I would lose the AoO concept. I personally find it complicated, annoying and prefer the editions before it.
Second: I would probably get rid of the 2nd and 3rd attacks. Just go off the basic BAB for attacks. (Honestly, I don't have an issue with these... bu the fluxuating BAB for multiple attacks can get confusing.
Third: STOP killing PCs. This is trickier if htey do TRULY stupid stuff... but if the NPcs have to be a little dumber then they should then I would certainly pick that over helping them remake brand new characters from scratch.
Granted, don't TELL them your doing it. It may sour the game for them... but honestly this should be a learning experience mroe than anything... If they spend one month learning the ins and outs of a ranger... then are suddenly playing a mage, its right back to square one for them.
Theres a few other things I would start cutting out for slimmed down game, find some way to simplify the Full attack action/vs standard actions... maybe consolidate some of the free/swift/immediate actions...
I don't know... and if the basic set comes out, I would leap at using those rules instesd... But by your own comments... they don't even KNOW the rules right now, so if you want to change them theres no reason to stop playing, they PROBABLY won't even notice.
If i know a person is new to PF/DnD I usually email this link to grasp the the most basic of the basics.
http://www.wizards.com/playdnd/playdnd.asp
^ This can be a time saver in the end
Also I make it a point to not have them play casters unless they are truely dead set on it.
currently We are breaking in 2 new players
one a fighter(Half orc dire flail wielding TWF) and one a wizard(Blast/buffer)
it took some time but they finally seem to be grasping the game a lot better.
I've even bought the deck of the condition cards
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/p/paizoPublishingLLC/gameMastery/itemPacks /v5748btpy8ddq/discuss&page=last
awesome 10 dollar buy and enough card in the box for 4 players
I bet if I made a Bard Archivist and named him "Derrida" no one would get it...
I would! LOL! He could research a new spell called deconstruction. Sounds powerful!
I've been playing RPGs a long time now and I suspect I dont know how to level a character properly - I've never sat down and actually read through the process, just paged through various sections of the book from time to time when the mood took me. In our group that isnt an issue since none of us really care about the rules so if we're all slightly off what we 'should' be, it's expected and unimportant.
I wonder whether the issue is a difference in expectations as to what playing an RPG is actually about? If your friends have a similar outlook to my group, getting all the numbers right doesnt have any actual significance in play - as long as the things your character can try doing make sense to the kind of character you're playing.
If you would like to teach them how the rules work, perhaps you could try pointing them to the page which spelled out the levelling process, rather than telling them "You get to choose a feat" or whatever? I dont know if that's what you're doing now, but imo the 'teach someone to fish' approach is the best long-term solution, even though it's slower and more tedious in the short-term.
Everyone has their own ideal way of learning. Things should click more quickly the more they can do themselves (some people are in the habit of not switching into critical thinking mode if there is someone within earshot who has all the answers)...If they are really into it, and they have the right tools, they will learn.
One simple thing that really helped my young ones was helping them work out a "combat options" sheet with their character that includes all relevant bonuses...even though its pretty simple its one less thing to juggle in their head. When its their turn "look at your sheet, what are your options?"
-attack---------modified attack bonus----damage---------crit--
+1 longsword(fullattack)...+11/+6.....1d8+6/1d8+6.....19-20/x2
........(move and strike)....+11 ..........1d8+6..............19-20/x2
Throwing axe..................+9.............1d6+5..............20/x2
........(point blank 30').....+10............1d6+6..........
disarm............d20+13 vs foe's CMD ..etc.
Then run some strat-heavy arena battles to help it sink in. Starting with something like a few of one type of animal, then all melee skellies, then melee and ranged orcs... Arena fights can make the combat rules fun and therefore interesting enough to switch on critical thinking.
EWHM is right on the money. I got frustrated with my group for a long time, until it finally struck me like some sort of revelation that they were simply CASUAL, are were not going to read rulebooks between sessions.
We've since been playing the Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG beta and 1981 Basic D&D. It's been a lot of fun, plus it's less prep work for me.
Sounds to me like they've had their chance to figure out Pathfinder, and it hasn't panned out. I'd just switch to a lighter system, and I am of the opinion that you don't need to consult them about it. In my circles, the person putting forth the effort to DM gets to pick the game.
What you describe sounds like a bunch of people that just want to hang out and roll some dice. You don't need a 600-page rules system for that.
Pathfinder is a great game, but it's not for everyone.
So what I'm seeing is a lot of support for BASIC roleplay. Is there a way to modify a game in the middle of a campaign to simplify it or am I just going to have to scrap it and start from scratch?
If you do decide to scrap it and start again (and it might be best) try are keep the orginal characters in the world as NPC's.
The new characters can meet them and deal with them. That's always a blast, provides continuity and makes it look as if it was part of the plan all a long :^)
And when the get the hang of the game a bit more perhaps pick the characters up again, if they are so inclined.
We had a player who never read into the rules and would ask a million rule questions all the time.
We would answer and move on, but the questions never stopped.
We then just made the person look up the rules themselves when they had a question, and they actually retained them.
Maybe for your group, if they were forced to go through the index and find the rule they are looking for they would retain it better.
We no longer get the questions, just a lot of "Did you know you can do this.[insert rule here]"
....and cheat sheets do work great!
I've been playing table-top RPGs for slightly over a decade now and for the most part I've played with people of at least above-average intelligence. In recent years however, since I left school, the intellect of the people I associate with now is significantly lower than what I it used to be. They're great people, which is why we're all friends, but for some reason most of them never graduated high school. Now please don't think I'm trying to call all people who didn't finish high school unintelligent, far from it, but with my specific group of friends this happens to be the case.
Over seven months ago I introduced some of my newer friends to Pathfinder. They were all thrilled with the idea and we quickly put together a group and I started running them through Serpent's Skull. Problems first started to show when the whole group was completely baffled by the words used in the player handouts and it brought the game to a halt for a whole session at one point. Problems continued when, after seven months, I am still being asked questions like "how far can I move and still take an action?" or "What does incorporeal mean?" or "As a Ranger I can cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, right?" How long should it take someone, who has the core rule book, access to the internet, and the free time to actually look at both to learn the rules or look up a word? Am I being to hard?
It's getting to a point where I am no longer having fun playing because every session I'm repeating the same rules over and over, but no one seems to be picking them up. With one exception I have to walk each person step by step through character creation and leveling. Last week, I spent an entire session essentially making characters for three of the players (who had died the previous session) because they didn't understand the book's instructions on how to make a character. And then after that I had to help the player who didn't die level from 6th to 7th because she couldn't do it herself. After seven levels of play she still hasn't...
Why play if you are bored? Btw, some of the things you wrote here don't make me think that these guys are not intelligent. They are lazy and take advantage of your willingness. Or maybe, they are very stupid, but I don't think is probable... more likely, they don't care a lot about.
Sorry...
Why play if you are bored? Btw, some of the things you wrote here don't make me think that these guys are not intelligent. They are lazy and take advantage of your willingness. Or maybe, they are very stupid, but I don't think is probable... more likely, they don't care a lot about.
Sorry...
Like I said to a previous post, if you were to just hang out for an afternoon outside of the game and listen to the converstation you would no longer maintain that opinion. For instance, last year the smartest guy in the group was messing around with one of his guns a la Taxi Driver and he accidntally shot through his mirror, which went straight through the wall and into his neighbors house. He had the same accident again a month later. If I were to post stupid stories of people in my group it would take me hours and serve no purpose, you'll just have to trust my assessment on this.
I just hope your player don't stumble upon this thread... then again they may not uderstand it anyway ;)
EWHM is right on the money. I got frustrated with my group for a long time, until it finally struck me like some sort of revelation that they were simply CASUAL, are were not going to read rulebooks between sessions.
We've since been playing the Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG beta and 1981 Basic D&D. It's been a lot of fun, plus it's less prep work for me.
Sounds to me like they've had their chance to figure out Pathfinder, and it hasn't panned out. I'd just switch to a lighter system, and I am of the opinion that you don't need to consult them about it. In my circles, the person putting forth the effort to DM gets to pick the game.
What you describe sounds like a bunch of people that just want to hang out and roll some dice. You don't need a 600-page rules system for that.
Pathfinder is a great game, but it's not for everyone.
Wow, that just cut to the heart of this issue. I can plainly see it now, they ARE just casual players looking to roll some dice and smoke weed. And that's totally cool, but it's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking to play some serious Pathfinder with people interested in that as well, but I suppose that I should have realized that my expectations were somewhat different than theirs. I don't know why I didn't think of that sooner. Perhaps I'm the idiot in the group.
I think I'm going to scrap the game and perhaps move it to another system if any of them are interested, but I now realize that I'm not going to get what I want as a serious RPer with a group just looking for casual diversion and it's just going to make me unfairly upset with friends if I continue in that way.
I want to thank everyone who was kind enough to take my complaint seriously and offer up some advice. There were some really helpful suggestions that I will carry with me to future games. Now all I need to do is figure out a way to sort serious players from casual ones and I'll be all set! Again, Thank you all for your help and support.
Over seven months ago I introduced some of my newer friends to Pathfinder. They were all thrilled with the idea and we quickly put together a group and I started running them through Serpent's Skull. Problems first started to show when the whole group was completely baffled by the words used in the player handouts and it brought the game to a halt for a whole session at one point. Problems continued when, after seven months, I am still being asked questions like "how far can I move and still take an action?" or "What does incorporeal mean?" or "As a Ranger I can cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, right?" How long should it take someone, who has the core rule book, access to the internet, and the free time to actually look at both to learn the rules or look up a word? Am I being to hard?
You are confusing ability to learn with intelligence.
Einstien was horrible at math (never good at learning it) but was smart enough to make an atom split and make the nuclear bomb.You need to find a better teaching method of the rules.
Like, "Rangers aren't sorc/wiz, so they can't cast another classes spells."
Show them the races section about movement (it sats how fast their movement is)
I just hope your player don't stumble upon this thread... then again they may not uderstand it anyway ;)
Nah, none of them are on the forums here. Besides, I don't think they know my real name, I go by my nickname IRL and use my real name online (go figure).
Over seven months ago I introduced some of my newer friends to Pathfinder. They were all thrilled with the idea and we quickly put together a group and I started running them through Serpent's Skull. Problems first started to show when the whole group was completely baffled by the words used in the player handouts and it brought the game to a halt for a whole session at one point. Problems continued when, after seven months, I am still being asked questions like "how far can I move and still take an action?" or "What does incorporeal mean?" or "As a Ranger I can cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, right?" How long should it take someone, who has the core rule book, access to the internet, and the free time to actually look at both to learn the rules or look up a word? Am I being to hard?
You are confusing ability to learn with intelligence.
Einstien was horrible at math (never good at learning it) but was smart enough to make an atom split and make the nuclear bomb.You need to find a better teaching method of the rules.
Like, "Rangers aren't sorc/wiz, so they can't cast another classes spells."Show them the races section about movement (it sats how fast their movement is)
No, you just don't know the entire situation and I didn't care to relate all if it on this thread. I would invite you to sit down with my group for a session and afterwards you can give your opinion about whether it's ability to learn vs. intelligence, but before that point please don't tell me what I'm confusing with what.
Seriously... What does 'incorporeal' mean?? Have they never read a comic or watched a movie??? Or do they mean, 'What does noncorporeal mean MECHANICALLY?'THAT I could understand.
No, it was sadly the former.
Like I said to a previous post, if you were to just hang out for an afternoon outside of the game and listen to the converstation you would no longer maintain that opinion. For instance, last year the smartest guy in the group was messing around with one of his guns a la Taxi Driver and he accidntally shot through his mirror, which went straight through the wall and into his neighbors house. He had the same accident again a month later. If I were to post stupid stories of people in my group it would take me hours and serve no purpose, you'll just have to trust my assessment on this.Why play if you are bored? Btw, some of the things you wrote here don't make me think that these guys are not intelligent. They are lazy and take advantage of your willingness. Or maybe, they are very stupid, but I don't think is probable... more likely, they don't care a lot about.
Sorry...
So you are not bored. What's the problem? If you want to sit some hours with your friends once a week better change game and use anyone more simple.
So you are not bored. What's the problem? If you want to sit some hours with your friends once a week better change game and use anyone more simple.
As I said:
I think I'm going to scrap the game and perhaps move it to another system if any of them are interested, but I now realize that I'm not going to get what I want as a serious RPer with a group just looking for casual diversion and it's just going to make me unfairly upset with friends if I continue in that way.
I know im a bit late to the party. But last week i DMed a casual session. When I realised character creation was getting bogged down, i did something to simplify it. I grabbed a stack of 1st ed sheets and tranfered the stats, crossed out THAC0 and wrote BAB. No feats, too much complexity, wrote any goodies from the class down if the had it. I then played fast and loose with the rules. Turned out well.
I might suggest something like that for you. You can always add more complexity when wanted. Also, I didnt use a battlemat, so precise movement was not really tracked. Hope you work something out.