I believe the rage bonus' apply to your AC as well now but you can no longer get a double dip for a Dex + Canny defense.
To be fair with the new system post level 6 (fatigue immunity) you can rage cycle every round to refresh your temp hp buffer.
I feel like Vital strike on every hit (which equates to ~7/14/21 damage per swing) more than makes up for furious counter stroke being less accessible / losing out on the extra damage from 2-handing (due to no str increase)
Order of operations question: do the temporary hit points from Rage (Rage bonus * Hit Dice) disappear before or after you take the Rage Bonus x Rounds Raged damage?
Second Question: Is ending Rage a free action? Beginning it is, but I could not find or skipped over the section on ending it.
I also preferred the original furious counterstroke, mostly because it modeled the B09S Crusader. But no one else liked it, because in playtesting we ended up designing several new character sheets that did nothing but track how injured you were, and hence what your attack and damage bonuses actually were. (Yes, I could keep track of it in my head in play, but most people either couldn't or -- more accurately -- couldn't be bothered.)
It's been getting simpler (and also less useful) ever since. In its current incarnation, furious counterstroke is left in almost entirely to placate me, and as fan-service to the REH quote.
Ending rage should be a free -- or maybe a swift -- action. Still undecided.
I loved the stat increases, but the trickle-down adjustments to everything else basically necessitated two character sheets, and our current home-game playtester barely has the patience for one. The revised barbarian prioritizes "easy to play" over "nifty mechanics."
For people aghast at Vital Strike damage while raging, it's relatively quick and easy to grasp. If it seems like too much,
I also preferred the original furious counterstroke, mostly because it modeled the B09S Crusader. But no one else liked it, because in playtesting we ended up designing several new character sheets that did nothing but track how injured you were, and hence what your attack and damage bonuses actually were. (Yes, I could keep track of it in my head in play, but most people either couldn't or -- more accurately -- couldn't be bothered.)
It's been getting simpler (and also less useful) ever since. In its current incarnation, furious counterstroke is left in almost entirely to placate me, and as fan-service to the REH quote.
Oh, don't worry about it. The massive amount of positive changes far outweigh any issue I might have with a moderate loss in a single area. Plus, it means that the Barbarian basically gets 3 feats from level 1 - Power Attack, Vital Strike, and Diehard! That's amazing!
As long as the rage powers haven't been nerfed to hell, I'm perfectly fine. Speaking of which, if you'd be so kind as to send me whatever files you do have, obscene amounts or not, I'd greatly appreciate it. Email address is
One more thing, I noticed that the only way to get flight on a Barbarian is to take the "Draconic Rage" ability, which also requires you to take the Dragon Totem.It also seems as if the only way for a Fighter to fly is to obtain a Flight-capable mount. Was it an intentional choice to force players into specific archetypes in order to get the ability to fly? I was hoping it would be more widespread, actually.
Of course, like I said before, a minor sleight here and there does nothing to outweigh the massive benefits all around. Honestly, I think martials may be in a better place than casters right now.
Specifically, it seems as though saving throws were buffed for most martials, but I don't see much on ways for casters to increase saving throw DCs. Even Arcane Defense offers a scaling bonus (and eventually, immunity!) compared to what I thought was it's counterpart, Spell Focus, capped at a static +1. I guess this way they can't simply end encounters with a single spell anymore, so I guess that now they have to debuff their enemies before they go for the kill?
As long as the rage powers haven't been nerfed to hell, I'm perfectly fine.
They certainly have not. In fact, I'm weeding out and/or combining some of the less-stellar ones.
I noticed that the only way to get flight on a Barbarian is to take the "Draconic Rage" ability, which also requires you to take the Dragon Totem.It also seems as if the only way for a Fighter to fly is to obtain a Flight-capable mount. Was it an intentional choice to force players into specific archetypes in order to get the ability to fly? I was hoping it would be more widespread, actually.
Multiclassing is easy, Magical Talent is a single feat, and, if you're really amped, 4-6 levels in Dragonborn or Planetouched will do the trick, too. Or spend your numen on a flying carpet, like Harold Shea in "The Castle of Iron."
Specifically, it seems as though saving throws were buffed for most martials, but I don't see much on ways for casters to increase saving throw DCs. Even Arcane Defense offers a scaling bonus (and eventually, immunity!) compared to what I thought was it's counterpart, Spell Focus, capped at a static +1. I guess this way they can't simply end encounters with a single spell anymore, so I guess that now they have to debuff their enemies before they go for the kill?
YES. Either debuff the hell out of them first, or else buff your martial friends and let them do the dirty work. From the (in-prep) Combat chapter:
At that point, with combat against small groups, the game becomes more about tactics: whose buffing/battlefield control/martial combo package outdoes the other side’s? And that leads us to the last piece: if you know in advance what the enemy’s tactics will be, and know you can overcome them, you win. And that means, ultimately, that strategy is the key determining factor, especially at mid to higher levels.
I envision a game in which a party that charges in against a prepared foe gets wiped out. TPK. Sorry, guys. But if they ruthlessly exploit their advantages and deny the enemy his own, eventually they’ll tip the scales to the point where the villain goes down like a chump.
I had a fun thought.
20th level barbarian with Permanent spell (Rage), and Internalize Spell (Rage).
Literally unkillable.
I had a fun thought. 20th level barbarian with Permanent spell (Rage), and Internalize Spell (Rage). Literally unkillable.
That's true. Nothing keeping you from stranding him on Mars, though. Let's face it, at 20th level, "kill it" really shouldn't be your go-to solution, most of the time.
Are magical staffs priced as use activated magical items with charges? if so, does the numen "invested" increase as caster level increases at each level if there is a numeric bonus?
For example, it looks like a staff that could cast Ironskin (2nd level cleric, max +7 bonus to NA) would be 2000*7*7 = 98,000 by the maximum bonus rules, vs ~20-40k as a staff and using the casters Concentration skill, if I am reading things right? Or possibly much less, depending on how much of the Pathfinder rules for staffs did not change... Is this a benefit to putting ranks into concentration?
Related question; expeditious retreat is first level. Would the limits on bonus mean you would only get a 5' enhancement, not 30? Or does it fall under the non-scaling static clause? It also looks like Athletics removed the +4 bonus per 10' over 30' movement speed, which would have been my next question... 30' more movement is +12 in pathfinder to jumping. Now capped at +4 no matter what, with a successful Run check?
Any advice in using Spheres of Power with Kirthfinder?
Something that I think may work, is replacing Kirthfinder's "Spell Capacity" with Spheres of Power "Caster Level." This should relatively keep the power level the same.
While both Kirthfinder and Spheres of Power may be seen as psuedo-nerfs to the general power level of casters, combining the Spheres of Power system with the Kirthfinder Metamagic feats (with spell adjustment being paid for in spell point cost) should DEFINITELY provide casters with all they need and more.
Are magical staffs priced as use activated magical items with charges? if so, does the numen "invested" increase as caster level increases at each level if there is a numeric bonus?
As the home game continues, I'm becoming more convinced that "charged" items are essentially at-will ones, because, realistically, no one ever runs out of charges before buying a new one. The pricing scheme for command word-activated items would therefore probably be more appropriate: (spell level x caster level x 900) per function.
Conceivably a system of prerequisites and wielding requirements could be set up, so that people who fulfill the requirements would use the use-activated pricing instead.
It also looks like Athletics removed the +4 bonus per 10' over 30' movement speed, which would have been my next question... 30' more movement is +12 in pathfinder to jumping. Now capped at +4 no matter what, with a successful Run check?
In the master documents at home, I've clarified the rules and added a sidebar showing how a 1st level human expert can qualify for the Olympics in the long jump, high jump, and 100 m sprint. If I ever get enough revisions to release a new edition, that will be in there. The long and short of it is that you don't need +12 from speed to make Olympic long jumps... even at 1st level.
Even further with diminishing rules.
Level 1 with a +1 Strength nets you a +5. Which lets you jump up to a DC 25, Which is a Cool 36 foot long jump 1 out of 20 tries
If you run then your bonus becomes a +7 which means you could jump up to a DC 27 which is up to 40 feet.
To beat the Current world record of long jump (29 ish feet) you'd only need to roll a 15 (DC 30 -> 22). Remember this is someone of just slightly above average strength and no investment besides a single skill rank.
Like I said, the rules have been streamlined and revised. I'll try and remember to post them here when I get a chance.
A few more typos:
- On Sudden Spell Metamagic; the last sentence says "The duration of a swift spell is reduced to one round". Swift should be Sudden.
- Flickering Eye Arcane Feat does not list what level illusion spells give the various effects.
- Hexblades Curse Reserve feat - mentions attack rolls and saves as taking a penalty in the benefit text, and then as a conditional benefit for expending the spell in the special text.
- Weapon Maneuvers, Improved - 3rd bullet point says Blinding, as in eyes, not Binding.
- Critical dodge does not specify whether ranged spell criticals can be affected by the feat.
- Power Attack, Furious Focus is maybe supposed to just be Furious Focus?
- Armor Training, Arcane has no text on whether it overlaps with or stacks with the Armor Training Fighter talent.
- Trip description in chapter 1 seems to be missing text allowing a trip attempt to replace an attack or iterative attack, unless that was changed deliberately.
- Confusing Blow, Strike: BAB +6 disallows a save. BAB +11/16 have greater effects on a failed save. Is this a new save?
- Shorten Grip has no text about whether it is a free action, non-action, or swift/move/etc to change hands.
- Swift Surge Reserve Feat & Blinding Speed: Blinding speed has no text giving a spell level, except as haste. This gives the activation options as Haste or Haste, which is a non-scaling trigger. The text of the feat looks like it should scale, but has no way to as written.
- Evasion (fighter talent or Lightning reflexes, as rogue, etc) - has no text about allowing a fighter/other to use the feature if ACP is 0 in Medium or Heavy armor, as Canny Defense, Dodge, movement penalties, etc. It seems that it should, given the rest of the features with similar language.
Clarification Questions
1. The thievery domain allows the selection of the Evasion Rogue class feature as a bonus feat. Does that scale to Improved/Superior?
2. The fighters weapon training feature says that it counts as weapon focus for purposes of prerequisites, but does not give any attack bonus. Does this preclude taking actual weapon focus? Should it give an attack bonus?
3. Fighters Grit: can activate any single strike feat or ability. Is this really ANY, or only any already known?
4. Would the Thicket of Blades stance (previously activated), with Stance Mastery, be invalidated by dimension dooring with Dimensional Agility?
5. Adamantine Pricing: it goes from 5,000/10,000/15,000 (PF) for armor to 6,000/8,000/11,200 (KF), which is not bad at all. But weapon pricing went from 3,000 to 18,100... Is there a reason for that? I cannot find the 30,000 cost referenced for penetrating hardness, and the feat Penetrating Strike at BAB +6 will penetrate any amount of DR or hardness. Weapon feat pricing suggests that would be 2000-12,000 for the hardness and DR penetration.
6. I think I mentioned this once before, but the text of Magical Talent (MT) does not agree with Magical Talent, Array (MTA). MT specifies a number of SLAs whose total spell levels (cantrips as 1/2) must be less than half your ranks in Concentration, but has no provision for increasing the SLAs known (unless it is assumed that at level-up it can be updated), making taking it at less than 20 ranks sub-optimal. MTA has text saying that the single spell from MT forms the basis of the MTA. Does MTA replace MT? Subsume it?
Finally, two things I am hoping you will consider:
Any chance that an Improved Dirty trick feat might be in the next iteration of the rules, similar to Improved Trip? Pulling from Pathfinder feats like Improved dirty trick, greater dirty trick, quick dirty trick, dirty trick master, etc.
Second, what do you think of something like the dimensional pocket Psion power, the Nomad ACF Personal Space, the spheres of power Extradimenionsal storage Warp power, and the like - basically an extra dimensional space not tied to an item that could be a permanent or semi-permanent "stash". Perhaps a Reserve feat?
Awesome system - the more I read into it the cooler it gets.
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Are magical staffs priced as use activated magical items with charges? if so, does the numen "invested" increase as caster level increases at each level if there is a numeric bonus?As the home game continues, I'm becoming more convinced that "charged" items are essentially at-will ones, because, realistically, no one ever runs out of charges before buying a new one. The pricing scheme for command word-activated items would therefore probably be more appropriate: (spell level x caster level x 900) per function.
Conceivably a system of prerequisites and wielding requirements could be set up, so that people who fulfill the requirements would use the use-activated pricing instead.
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. I'll look into that part of Kirthfinder and see how it works out.
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Any advice in using Spheres of Power with Kirthfinder?Something that I think may work, is replacing Kirthfinder's "Spell Capacity" with Spheres of Power "Caster Level." This should relatively keep the power level the same.
While both Kirthfinder and Spheres of Power may be seen as psuedo-nerfs to the general power level of casters, combining the Spheres of Power system with the Kirthfinder Metamagic feats (with spell adjustment being paid for in spell point cost) should DEFINITELY provide casters with all they need and more.
Sighs, my apologies it seems like just realized that I called the wrong person and wrong post.
A few more typos:
Thank you! That's an invaluable service.
Clarification Questions:
1. The thievery domain allows the selection of the Evasion Rogue class feature as a bonus feat. Does that scale to Improved/Superior?2. The fighters weapon training feature says that it counts as weapon focus for purposes of prerequisites, but does not give any attack bonus. Does this preclude taking actual weapon focus? Should it give an attack bonus?
3. Fighters Grit: can activate any single strike feat or ability. Is this really ANY, or only any already known?
4. Would the Thicket of Blades stance (previously activated), with Stance Mastery, be invalidated by dimension dooring with Dimensional Agility?
5. Adamantine Pricing: it goes from 5,000/10,000/15,000 (PF) for armor to 6,000/8,000/11,200 (KF), which is not bad at all. But weapon pricing went from 3,000 to 18,100... Is there a reason for that? I cannot find the 30,000 cost referenced for penetrating hardness, and the feat Penetrating Strike at BAB +6 will penetrate any amount of DR or hardness. Weapon feat pricing suggests that would be 2000-12,000 for the hardness and DR penetration.
6. I think I mentioned this once before, but the text of Magical Talent (MT) does not agree with Magical Talent, Array (MTA). MT specifies a number of SLAs whose total spell levels (cantrips as 1/2) must be less than half your ranks in Concentration, but has no provision for increasing the SLAs known (unless it is assumed that at level-up it can be updated), making taking it at less than 20 ranks sub-optimal. MTA has text saying that the single spell from MT forms the basis of the MTA. Does MTA replace MT? Subsume it?
1. Add this text: "If you choose evasion and already have rogue levels, your cleric level provides Full synergy for determining improvements (improved evasion, greater evasion)."
2. You can still take Weapon Focus (which has actually now been combined with Weapon Specialization). And, no, weapon training no longer provides an attack bonus (an intentional nerf from earlier versions).
3. One you know. Or, you could spend 2 points of grit and gain the use of one you don't know for one round, then activate that.
4. You can maintain it, but only if the total movement is less than or equal to that allowed by your Stance Mastery.
5. That was intentional, because otherwise everyone automatically always gets adamantine weapons (same with mithral armor). Note that order of operations specifically precludes using feat pricing if numerical bonus pricing is potentially applicable:
ORDER OF OPERATIONS FOR PRICING
In order to close a number of obvious avenues of abuse, there are “ground rules” in item pricing that must be followed. The following order of operations in terms of costing items is non-negotiable:
1. For items that provide a numerical bonus of any kind, you must use the numerical bonus pricing rules below. Bonuses are priced using a multiplier x the bonus squared, as in the core rules. Numerical bonuses are always priced using this method; never as spells or feats. Therefore, a weapon with the true strike spell simply ignores miss chances due to concealment (i.e., has the seeking weapon property); pricing to gain an insight bonus to attacks is 2,500 x the bonus squared, per the “Other Numerical Bonuses” table below.
2. For items that provide a spell effect other than a numerical bonus, use the spell effect pricing rules in preference to the feat pricing rules, especially if the spell level and effects follow the rules outlined in Chapter 8.
3. Use the feat pricing rules only if the item cannot be constructed using numerical bonuses and/or spell effects, or if the spell effect is from a non-Core source and has not been checked against the standardized spells rules in Chapter 8.
In this case, we should probably use heart of the metal (I had been using the higher-level touch of adamantine from an earlier edition and neglected to cite it): 3rd level x CL 5th x 500 (use-activated) x 2 (duration multiplier) = 15,000. The total would be 20,100 numen.
6. This was answered previously in this thread; I'll see if I can locate it. The long and short of it is that your talent gets subsumed into the array.
Second, what do you think of something like the dimensional pocket Psion power, the Nomad ACF Personal Space, the spheres of power Extradimenionsal storage Warp power, and the like - basically an extra dimensional space not tied to an item that could be a permanent or semi-permanent "stash". Perhaps a Reserve feat?
Dimensional Sheath: When not in use, you stash your weapon in an extradimensional space. 3rd level secret pocket spell (d20 Arcana) x CL 5th x 500 x 1 (hour/level) = 7,500 numen, plus 1,500 per pound above 5 lbs. weight.
I'm not seeing "personal space" as a Nomad power on the SRD (not sure what ACF is), and I don't own Spheres of Power, but as you can see the idea has been mentioned at least.
Kirth, Thanks for the replies. Adamantine does seem to be a "must-have" fairly early on because of it's utility - I can understand increasing the cost. And for a fighter at least, spending a grit point to get Penetrating Strike for 1 round would let you get through that door when you really, really need to.
I saw the clarification on the at-will required number of ranks, but I think I must have missed anything else regarding magical talent... I will look back through the thread.
One of the Alternate Class Features (ACF) for the Psion trades out the first level feat for the personal space (near the bottom) feature, which gives a scaling amount of storage that is intrinsic to the Psion. I had seen the dimensional sheath, but didn't want to put it on every individual item. Perhaps it would work on a backpack/pouch/chest type of thing?
Basically a non-item (can't be dispelled or confiscated) that can recreate something like Secret Pocket or Arcane Pocket. (Arcane pocket is lower level and can hold more weight, but Secret Pocket is better hidden-no one else can access it). That's exactly what the Spheres of Power Extra-dimensional Storage power is, by the way - Arcane pocket without a duration or physical focus, at basically the cost of a feat (extra magical talent feat = one power). That is what led me to thinking of a reserve feat, similar to dimensional jaunt or dimensional reach.
Would you be against it if I gifted you a PDF copy of Spheres of Power and the Expanded PDF which covers all classes but Occult?
That's a very generous offer, but unfortunately I have very little time to myself these days, which is why updates have slowed to a trickle over the last ~2 years. I'm so far behind on my reading already that I may never catch up, much less get the chance to add new stuff!
Basically a non-item (can't be dispelled or confiscated) that can recreate something like Secret Pocket.
I'm all for it, but I never did figure out a good way to spend numen on non-items (you can see a bunch of half-hearted suggestions in Chapter 6). With enough ranks in Concentration, you could probably spend a feat for Permanent Spell and get it that way, though, and then maybe tack on Internalize Spell if you REALLY don't want it to be temporarily suppressed by a dispel magic.
ATHLETICS
Active Checks (Jumping):
Active Checks (Running):
Olympic Athletes:
That said, having competed in the long jump (albeit at nowhere near an Olympic level!), I'm intensely aware that your speed on takeoff is far more important that technique, so some adjustment for speed would need to be included. Maybe +5 to the DC per 5 ft. BELOW 40 ft. speed, and -5 to the DC per 10 feet faster than 40 ft. (up to a max of, say, 60 ft.)?
Rather than add to the DC and make it more difficult to do the same jump for slower characters, gate the max DC by speed? You could attempt a DC 30 with 30' speed, but not a DC 35; DC 20 with 20', but not DC 25; etc. A character could still attempt a max jump rather than try to meet the DC. Then, lower the bonus for speeds over 40 to balance/flatten the spread? IE, speed of 50 means DC 50 is possible, and gives a +2 or +4 circumstance bonus to the check? Just a quick thought without a lot of sleep - mostly thinking of sneaky halflings not being able to jump across a rooftop because the DC for 10 feet would be DC 30 (10+5x4) at 20' speed.
I'm not tied to "realism," so I'm totally open to any suggestions -- and yours is pretty straightforward and easy to adjudicate. That said, if I can find a simple way to make the math reflect RL experience as well, so much the better. Your point about hopping hobbits is a good one, too.
A few more questions after poking through the rules some more:
1.a How exactly does Cascade Spell work? It says that it uses a slot higher than the total of the two spells - what does that mean for a first level and a second level spell, or two 2nd level spells for example? I looked through all of the examples in Chapter 7 and just got more confused - usually it's +1, sometimes +2, up to +5?
1.b. Do other metamagics like Extend apply to both, or only to one? The text says that other metamagic does not heighten both; Does it still apply the effect?
1.c. Do other metamagics increase the cost of Cascade, or is it always applied "first"?
2. If Caster Level is now the number of ranks in concentration, and there is a specific high level wizard power (Spell Power) which gives +1 CL as an enhancement bonus, then are Beads of Karma, orange prism stones, and all the many other items/feats/abilities that give conditional or temporary +1 or +2 to CL for sub schools (darkness, acid, teleportation, illusion, etc) removed from the game?
3. Power Conduits and Pearls of Power:
3.a How would one price out additional cantrips known/prepared, as the cracked orange prism stone? Cracked Orange Prism. As a more "flexible" pearl of power, so that rather than refresh an existing spell slot it actually gives another slot to prepare a different cantrip in? That would be 2000*0.5^2 = 500?
3.b. Is the ring of Spell Storing priced out as a single prepared slot of the rings level? At 10 levels it is 200k (2000*10^2*1), 5 levels is 50k (2000*5^2*1), and 3 levels is 18k (2000*3^2*1)? Which is the same as PF.
3.c. Was it an intentional decision to double the costs of pearls of power and decrease the costs of more spell slots for spontaneous casters? A 3rd level Pearl of Power went from a potential purchase at 9th level to a potential purchase at 12th level. Is that in exchange for the limited spells known of spontaneous casters? From the examples, a “conduit of power” that gives 6 first level spells and 3 2nd level spells is 16,000 numen. The same for a prepared caster would be 36,000 numen (8000 per 2nd, 2000 per 1st). Would it perhaps make sense to consider an actual pearl of power (can only refresh the same spell originally in that slot) as a "contingent/limited" effect and cut the price in half? That would match 3.5/PF prices.
4. On the rules for command activated spell effects - if an item gives an ability to cast a spell which gives a numeric bonus a certain number of times a day (or at will), how is it priced? Example: Ironskin is a second level cleric spell. Would a command word item giving a +7 enhancement bonus (CL 20) be a spell effect (900*2*20*1.5*charges/5), or a numeric one at 98,000 numen (2,000*7^2)? A continuous effect would obviously be the numeric bonus rules; I am curious how command word spells which give numeric bonuses are classified.
5. Finally, Lightning Reflexes at 16 ranks in Acrobatics grants Evasion as the rogue class feature, and counts your hit dice for improvement (if any) if you already have evasion. How does this interact with other non-rogue evasion features? What does the "if any" text mean?
+6 Evasion (Ex): You are constantly alert against cave-ins, methane gas explosions, and the like. You gain evasion (as the rogue class feature), but not improved or greater evasion. If you already have evasion, your vigilance is instead channeled into your senses, and you gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.
Evasion
Benefit: You gain evasion, as the rogue class feature. If you have at least 11 levels in fighter, you also gain Improved Evasion (you do not gain Greater Evasion with this talent alone).
Synergy: If you have levels in Rogue, your fighter levels instead provide Full synergy towards the rogue’s evasion progression.
A few more questions after poking through the rules some more:
1.a How exactly does Cascade Spell work? It says that it uses a slot higher than the total of the two spells - what does that mean for a first level and a second level spell, or two 2nd level spells for example? I looked through all of the examples in Chapter 7 and just got more confused - usually it's +1, sometimes +2, up to +5?
1.b. Do other metamagics like Extend apply to both, or only to one? The text says that other metamagic does not heighten both; Does it still apply the effect?
1.c. Do other metamagics increase the cost of Cascade, or is it always applied "first"?
1(a) Example: One 1st level spell + 1 second level spell = 1+2+1 = 4th level final spell. Two 2nd level spells cascaded = 2+2+1 = 5th level. Etc. The -1 level discount for multiple metamagic effects may also apply, so that may be part of the confusion.
(b) If you cascade them first, the metamagic generally applies to the entire new combined spell.(c) Depends on what you're trying to do.
(As a favor to me, it would help to provide specific examples when possible; it makes it a lot easier to explain this stuff.)
2. If Caster Level is now the number of ranks in concentration, and there is a specific high level wizard power (Spell Power) which gives +1 CL as an enhancement bonus, then are Beads of Karma, orange prism stones, and all the many other items/feats/abilities that give conditional or temporary +1 or +2 to CL for sub schools (darkness, acid, teleportation, illusion, etc) removed from the game?
Correct.
EFFECTIVE CLASS LEVEL CAP
Stated simply, your effective class level for any purpose can never be higher than your total character level. If you have some ability that allows you to cast spells at +1 caster level, that’s fine and good, but if your caster level is already equal to your total character level, that ability has no effect. This is already stated in the rules for class synergy (the “maximum synergy” rule), but is re-stated here as a general rule as well.
Unless otherwise noted, this restriction applies to all class features. No matter what combination of feats, class features, and abilities you use, there is no way to achieve a number of sneak attack dice greater than half your class level (rounded up), for example.
Exceptions to this rule are rare, and will always have a disclaimer indicating the intent (e.g., “this is a specific exception to the general rule…”). Any exploit you think you find that violates this general rule and lacks such a disclaimer is hereby expressly prohibited.
3. Power Conduits and Pearls of Power:
3.a How would one price out additional cantrips known/prepared, as the cracked orange prism stone? Cracked Orange Prism. As a more "flexible" pearl of power, so that rather than refresh an existing spell slot it actually gives another slot to prepare a different cantrip in? That would be 2000*0.5^2 = 500?3.b. Is the ring of Spell Storing priced out as a single prepared slot of the rings level? At 10 levels it is 200k (2000*10^2*1), 5 levels is 50k (2000*5^2*1), and 3 levels is 18k (2000*3^2*1)? Which is the same as PF.
3.c. Was it an intentional decision to double the costs of pearls of power and decrease the costs of more spell slots for spontaneous casters? A 3rd level Pearl of Power went from a potential purchase at 9th level to a potential purchase at 12th level. Is that in exchange for the limited spells known of...
(a) I'm on break at work right now and can't access that link; I'll have to get back to you on that.
(b) Sounds reasonable.(c) Yes. Spontaneous casting is in general over-valued by Paizo, and the sheer potential power of prepared casting is under-valued.
4. On the rules for command activated spell effects - if an item gives an ability to cast a spell which gives a numeric bonus a certain number of times a day (or at will), how is it priced? Example: Ironskin is a second level cleric spell. Would a command word item giving a +7 enhancement bonus (CL 20) be a spell effect (900*2*20*1.5*charges/5), or a numeric one at 98,000 numen (2,000*7^2)? A continuous effect would obviously be the numeric bonus rules; I am curious how command word spells which give numeric bonuses are classified.
If it's a limited effect that applies "x" number of rounds when activated as a standard action, command-activation pricing is fine.
5. Finally, Lightning Reflexes at 16 ranks in Acrobatics grants Evasion as the rogue class feature, and counts your hit dice for improvement (if any) if you already have evasion. How does this interact with other non-rogue evasion features? What does the "if any" text mean?
"If any" means if the evasion you already have offers that, based on its source. For example, rogue levels potentially lead to improved evasion and greater evasion; other sources stop at improved evasion; others don't offer any improvement at all.
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It would look like his warlock sorcerer methinks.
I would say go battle sorcerer and pick Elemental bloodline.
Kirth, trying to back out the Cascade Spell costs from examples I forgot about the -1 reduction for multiples. Between that and your explanation it makes a lot more sense.
One more typo for you - in chapter 4, concentration gives a DC of 16+caster level for a dispel check. The text gives a DC of 11+concentration modifier - if unknown, then 11+1.5*caster level.
Do your views on prepared vs spontaneous allow for any items (rather than the expanded arcana feat directly) that increase spontaneous casters spells known? For example, the Mnemonic Vestment or Spell Lattice.
Mnemonic Vestment
Price 5,000 gp; Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Weight 1 lb.
The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface. If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment's properties does not consume the written source.
From Ultimate Equipment.
Priced as a PF pearl of power, or approximately half the equivalent item in KF.
A spell lattice is a block of transparent crystal, internally etched with a three-dimensional representation of a spell. This spell is chosen when the item is created (the contained spell determines the school of the lattice's aura). When a spell lattice is wielded by a spontaneous spellcaster who has the spell contained within it on her class spell list, she can use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. When an arcanist holds a spell lattice, as long as she has the contained spell on her class spell list, she can use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells currently prepared.
A spellcaster who uses a spellbook or formula book can copy the spell from a spell lattice as if it were a scroll. Doing so expends the spell from the spell lattice.
From Advanced Class Guide
Do your views on prepared vs spontaneous allow for any items (rather than the expanded arcana feat directly) that increase spontaneous casters spells known? For example, the Mnemonic Vestment or Spell Lattice.
If you think about it, a wand is basically a spell known plus 50 spell slots devoted to it. The spell lattice is just the spell known. I suspect that if someone had the time and inclination, they could figure out relative costs for each and allow that level of granularity in items. It's a good idea, but not one that I have time for, unfortunately. (I'm still trying to "zero out" all the armor prices based on their ACP, max Dex, spell failure, etc. -- instead of just declaring them and calling it good enough.)
For Spells known items couldn't you just buy the expanded arcana feat So 2,000 x minimum CL for the spell known in question (2,000,6,000,10,000, etc)?
Or is the question more finding different/specific formula or metric by which to price spells known for casters?
Or just price as a page of spell knowledge?
1000 x Spell level ^ 2 : 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th)
Which averages out to 20x more expensive than a Wizard.
The question was more fueled from curiosity on how Kirth/the play test group view casters. If the opinion is that Paizo overvalues spontaneous casting and undervalues prepared, as espoused earlier, then how does changing the limiting mechanic of a spontaneous caster (spells known) affect that view?
Pricing was a secondary question; apparently Paizo published both the Page of Spell Knowledge and the Spell Lattice, several years apart; they do the same thing for the same cost, except the spell lattice (the version I was familiar with) requires that it be held to cast the spell.
(Now i want to make a big spreadsheet with all the armors...)
My 2cp on the caster question and I'll be borrowing some terminology form Kirth and TOZ.
Prepared casters wake up and requisition a set number of rounds for their gun each day in exact quantities, so if they want to fireballs they have to ask for them. Clerics and druids can ask for almost anything in their armories while Wizards and the arcane guys have a list of their choosing to choose from.
Spontaneous casters are give a set number of rounds but their guns can modify the rounds as needed into whatever types of rounds the guns has schematics for.
Paizo values the second option as being more powerful since you can use whatever round you know on the fly. In practice and especially with the type of plan before attack Kirthfinder leans towards the second ability is only useful if you know the right types of spells. Whereas a Prepared caster has a much larger selection to have the right types of spells given even 1 day of forewarning. Since without a class feature or a feat numen is needed to have more spells in your book then it stands to reason that allowing too cheap of a spells known list would swap that balance around.
Because I like math far too much and spend too much time in excel... Kirth, when you are looking at the armors are you looking at all PF armor, or just the ones listed in the Chapter 6: Equipment of KF?
Because I like math far too much and spend too much time in excel... Kirth, when you are looking at the armors are you looking at all PF armor, or just the ones listed in the Chapter 6: Equipment of KF?
Mostly just the KF ones; there's really almost no reason I can think of to have 6,438 different types of armor if the only differences in some of them is cosmetic, and maybe PF lists one as costing 600 gp more for no apparent reason.
That said, if there are armors that are substantially different (+7 to AC, -2 ACP, 100% spell failure, or whatever) it might be fun to price those after the main ones are taken care of. And it's OK if those oddball ones cost some numen, but ideally the more basic armor types would "zero out" in terms of cost: the ACP, spell failure, and weight balance out the AC bonus.
I started down this path at one point and got lost, but the following became clear:
Apologies for the walls of text, even if they are hidden behind spoilers. I had some free time this weekend, and dug into the existing rules after realizing the armor is much more complicated than I initially thought.
- 1. Assess Weakness for Craft Construction DC is listed as 10 in the table, and DC 15+ objects hardness in text
- 2. Craft Construction and Profession Miner overlap in the reduction of hardness of stone - does this stack? Is it intended, given the separation of Craft Smithing and metal?
- 3. Craft Construction and Spellcraft have no text on taking 10 for searching for traps/secret doors, while Disable Device does- intended?
- 4. Water Walking and Wind Walking, Acrobatics (I think I mentioned this one before, and you had mentioned looking at the DCs - more math this time): DC in table says 35 for water walking, while text says as difficult terrain. At 12 ranks: you can ignore 20’ of difficult terrain (5’/3 ranks); if included, then at a land speed of 35’+ the difficult terrain DC (35+) is harder than the static 35. Without including the reduction from Acrobatics as a class skill, anything over 15’ is more difficult. Wind Walking - DC 30+5 per 5’. At 16 ranks, that is 25’ ignoring difficult terrain; 30’ movement is DC 30. Not counting the class skill bonus, 30’ movement is DC 55. Not sure what difficulty level is intended, but it varies substantially depending on reading. Sub question - would a check still be required if the amount of ignored difficult terrain (30’ max at 18 ranks) is equal or greater than the distance you want to travel? (My personal feeling is that both Water and Wind walking SHOULD include the reduction in rough terrain, and be X+5 per 5’ DCs. I also think that you should be able to move any distance whose total DC is under your take 10 value without rolling. )
-Sub point - I think the accelerated climbing entries for +5/10 to the DC should be accelerated climbing and swimming. It would also be cool to see actual climb/swim speeds from the skill, since low level spells (spider climb, ape walk, touch of the sea, monkey fish, etc) can all do so anyway.
- 5. In chapter 6, Equipment, there is a line of text in Wild Armor referencing stacking rules for natural armor and regular armor in Chapter 1. There does not appear to be such text in chapter 1.
- 6. The example in Chapter 6 for the animated shield does not seem to give a cost for the actual animated property - just the shield bonus to AC and the +1 enhancement bonus.
- 1. Is Shadow Blend @ 16 ranks Stealth a EX, SU, or Spell-like ability (for Anti magic field, etc)? Text calls out as by the blur spell- assuming spell-like ability?
- 2. Guarded Attributes - gives Endurance/2 reduction in ability damage. Is that a total daily pool, or off of each instance? Text states that it only applies once against poisons, and that if multiple attributes are affected it only applies to the whole - is that multiple at once or throughout the day?
- 3. Craft Alchemy as a Class Skill - Can you extend and enhance the same potion in the same action?
- 4. Craft Alchemy as a Class Skill, Philosphers Stone; is this really a 1/month +50,000 gold? That does not apply towards numen, correct? Otherwise it would be +600,000 per year.
- 5. Personal Stock - referenced in Craft Alchemy and K. Linguistics; How does this work? Is it a gold cost for normal potions/scrolls and then you have to keep track of them, and a numen cost to consider always having 1/2/X on hand? In which case the numen cost basically replicates a use activated limited charge spell effect, correct?
- 6. Does exotic shield proficiency - Buckler/Dastana still have the -1 penalty on attacks? Text does not negate the martial proficiency penalty.
- 7. Assess Weakness for Craft Construction: if the text based DC is correct (15+hardness), do you count the ignored hardness for the ranks in Craft Construction first?
- 8. Removing the +X equivalent bonuses from weapons - is there still a 200,000 limit the weapon? Is there still a +5 limit to the enhancement bonus to attacks/damage?
- 9. Deadly Critical: Does this feat actually increase the weapon multiplier for things like the Strike save DC, or other abilities which depend on criit multiplier? Text is unclear. Is it intended to stack with the 20th level Fighter Weapon Mastery feature?
- 10. Is there still an implied or explicit limit of +5 for resistance bonuses to saves in the new crafting rules?
- 11. Can Clerics select alternate Domain spells? There are several diverging lists for the same domain with different spells at the same level between Pathfinder and 3.5; for example, Damning Darkness and Armor of Shadows are both 4th level Darkness Domain spells. Would this be a GM/referee conversation, or is there an accepted/assumed ability to choose from existing domain selections?
- 12. If an item creates an effect which allows a save, what is the assumed save DC for it? 10+spell level+0 (items do not have ability scores)? 10+spell level + original casters CHA/WIS (Serenity feat) if known, and some standardized value if not? 10+spell level+owners CHA/WIS?
- 1. To replicate the Channeling Shield property (18,000 gp, 3/day increase channeled dice by 1 die); would this be a 3/day usage of Practiced Channeler? At 60% the price (3/5) for the limited use? Would it be 2000 numen, the actual cleric level * 2000, or the effective cleric level * 2000?
- 2. Following the above, there are a number of items in Pathfinder which do something similar - gloves of dueling for the fighter, headband of havoc for a barbarian, boots of the friendly terrain for a ranger; would these be feat based at 2000 numen, 2000* the actual class level, or 2000* effective class level? I am assuming that effective class level can still never reach higher than 20, even though it could with some of these items. Does this change for multiple iterations? Ie, a Boots of the Friendly Terrain giving a +4 bonus instead of +2.
- 3. If an existing item from Pathfnder/Other disagrees with the Kirthfinder pricing rules in Chapter 6, do you keep the original pricing or replace it with the new price? Examples: Luckstone. Normally 20,000 gp; new rules make items that are continuous half the cost they were before. Divine favor does not give skill, ability check, or save bonuses but is the listed spell component for the item. Would this stay 20,000, go to 15,000 (+1 luck bonus on 3 items -saves, skills, and ability checks), or would skills be a subset of ability checks (10,000 numen cost). Or the Efficient Quiver - 1800 gp is the base price. It has Secret Chest as a spell component, which is a 5th level spell and not at all a direct application of a spell effect. Would it stay 1800, or go to 900? Finally, the Necklace of Adaption uses the spell Alter Self, for a price of 9000 gp. Would it stay 9000 or go to 4500, since the spell used does not directly create the items effects?
- 4. Special Materials Costs - Should there be a difference based on size/weight? For example, should an adamantine dagger cost the same amount of numen as a greatsword?
- 5. Pricing DR; if adding +1 DR/- to adamantine heavy armor (DR 3/-), is it priced according to the additional DR or total? Ie, 4^2-3^2 = 7*500 = 3500, or 1^2 = 1*500 = 500?
- 6. Pricing out something which could be a spell effect or a feat; The bone breaker gauntlets (cost 6000) from Pathfinder allow a 1/day strike to damage the targets Str, Dex, or Con for 1d6. This is either a 1/day Bestow Curse for 3*5*900*1/5 = 2700, or (very close to) a 1/day Crippling Strike, BAB +6 - which would be 2000*6 = 12000. Can limited use multipliers be put on a feat based effect? If so, it would be 2400 numen. Related - the example in Chapter 6 fixes the Crippling Strike Damage on strength, rather than explicitly allowing it to affect strength or dexterity. Would it be able to affect dexterity?
Finally, looking for some advice. I would like my fighter to be able to summon his weapon/armor at least 1/day, barring being locked in a lead lined vault. There is the Pathfinder +1 Called property, but that’s limited to 100 feet total distance. The Crystal of Return, Lesser, from the Magic Item Compedium allows a 30’ summons for 1000 gp. The Call Weapon Spell from 3.5 is basically the same range. And the Whistle Of Calling is a 1 mile teleport for a bonded mount, for 6300 gp; that could be house ruled to a weapon, and is the closest PF solution, but relies on a house rule.
Given a fighter with the Arcane Bond feat, effective caster level 18 for 81,000 numen cost as detailed in the feat;
- He could summon the weapon 1/round as a swift action, from up to 180 miles away;
- Would SLAs from Magical Talent Array power the Arcane Enhancement feature, up to the 9th level SLA = +9 bonus?
- How would this interact with the fighters Personal Weapon talent? Would it be simpler to not select personal weapon?
- Given that I am mostly looking for a way to summon the weapon, the 6th level and 14th level features of an Arcane bonded weapon are rather useless to me, unless the Battle Touch feat allows multiple uses of Bestow Curse with a single spell casting (hitting all iterative on different targets with the same touch spell would certainly be useful). Is there a simpler way to do this?
On the armor front - the Magic Item Compendium property Called (+2000 gp) allows you to summon your armor from anywhere on the same plane as a standard action; it appears on you, properly donned. This is ridiculously underpriced. However, I cannot find any spell which does something similar. The closest is the Armigers Panapoly, which requires the armor to be in a specific sack within 500 feet. Both versions of Called and the Whistle reference Teleport as the spell component, while the Crystal of Return references Mage Hand. Maybe a spell effect based on a cascaded spell with Swift Girding (don armor magically in one round)?
One note on my Necklace of Adaptation example - that may be a bad example. The text of Life Bubble (5th level Cleric) is almost a direct fit for the necklace, and it affects 1 target per two levels. If you can "remove" a Mass Effect spell metamagic (+4), you end up with a 1st level single target spell - something very similar to Air Bubble, though Air Bubble removes the text about being immune to harmful vapors. These would be 1x1x1000x2(min/level) = 2000 or 5x9x1000x1(2 hour/level)=45000, and seem like much better, direct options to cover that function.
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I believe that item prices increase dramatically if they have any numerical bonuses associated with their use.
For example a Luckstone Which is literaly just stright +1 bonuses to Saves, Ability Checks and Skill Checks:
5,000 x 18(I think this is the Total number of skills)
5,000 (Saves)
5,000 x 6 (Ability Checks)
= 125,000 Numen.
You'd likely see similar increases if your boosting say a favored terrain which also gives bonuses to skill checks / initiative etc.
6. The example in Chapter 6 for the animated shield does not seem to give a cost for the actual animated property - just the shield bonus to AC and the +1 enhancement bonus.
That text is correct. A +1 animated shield is, in essence, a continuous +2 shield bonus with a +1 enhancement bonus to that. And that's really all it is.
1. Is Shadow Blend @ 16 ranks Stealth a EX, SU, or Spell-like ability (for Anti magic field, etc)? Text calls out as by the blur spell- assuming spell-like ability?
2. Guarded Attributes - gives Endurance/2 reduction in ability damage. Is that a total daily pool, or off of each instance? Text states that it only applies once against poisons, and that if multiple attributes are affected it only applies to the whole - is that multiple at once or throughout the day?
3. Craft Alchemy as a Class Skill - Can you extend and enhance the same potion in the same action?
4. Craft Alchemy as a Class Skill, Philosphers Stone; is this really a 1/month +50,000 gold? That does not apply towards numen, correct? Otherwise it would be +600,000 per year.
5. Personal Stock - referenced in Craft Alchemy and K. Linguistics; How does this work? Is it a gold cost for normal potions/scrolls and then you have to keep track of them, and a numen cost to consider always having 1/2/X on hand? In which case the numen cost basically replicates a use activated limited charge spell effect, correct?
6. Does exotic shield proficiency - Buckler/Dastana still have the -1 penalty on attacks? Text does not negate the martial proficiency penalty.
7. Assess Weakness for Craft Construction: if the text based DC is correct (15+hardness), do you count the ignored hardness for the ranks in Craft Construction first?
8. Removing the +X equivalent bonuses from weapons - is there still a 200,000 limit the weapon? Is there still a +5 limit to the enhancement bonus to attacks/damage?
9. Deadly Critical: Does this feat actually increase the weapon multiplier for things like the Strike save DC, or other abilities which depend on criit multiplier? Text is unclear. Is it intended to stack with the 20th level Fighter Weapon Mastery feature?
10. Is there still an implied or explicit limit of +5 for resistance bonuses to saves in the new crafting rules?
11. Can Clerics select alternate Domain spells? There are several diverging lists for the same domain with different spells at the same level between Pathfinder and 3.5; for example, Damning Darkness and Armor of Shadows are both 4th level Darkness Domain spells. Would this be a GM/referee conversation, or is there an accepted/assumed ability to choose from existing domain selections?
12. If an item creates an effect which allows a save, what is the assumed save DC for it? 10+spell level+0 (items do not have ability scores)? 10+spell level + original casters CHA/WIS (Serenity feat) if known, and some standardized value if not? 10+spell level+owners CHA/WIS?
1. All skill functions, unless otherwise noted, are (Ex).
2. There is nothing in the text about "uses per day," so I'm not sure how you inferred a daily pool.3. Not as written, although I'd probably allow you to try it -- with the understanding that the check DCs would stack.
4. Gold never gives you free numen. The monetary system and magic item capacity are explicitly separate.
5. See response above regarding charged items. This text will eventually have to be revised.
6. Correct.
7. If I understand this correctly, I'd reply that you can't apply the effects of a skill check before making the check to get those effects in the first place -- unless the intent to base a campaign off of temporal paradoxes?
8. No and yes. In fact, the paragraph regarding armor enhancement bonuses specifically references the general +5 max enhancement bonus rule.
9. Yes and yes. However, I'd advocate combining Critical Focus, Improved Critical, and Deadly Critical into a scaling feat (BAB +1 = +4 to confirm crits with selected weapon, +6 = expand threat range, +11 = auto-confirm, +16 = increase multiplier by 1).
10. Yes:
Bonus Types: ...Resistance (specifically considered a type of enhancement bonus in these rules; the name is retained from the core rules to make cross-references simpler)
11. When there's a difference from the core Pathfinder rules, it's usually intentional. The KF rules supersede the Pathfinder ones, unless the whole table agrees otherwise. That said, you can always lobby the referee to allow specific exceptions, provided they're not imbalancing anything.
12. The Pathfinder rule is retained: 10 + 1.5 x spell level (which basically assumes the Cha bonus is equal to half the spell level).
Huh. So the animated is basically just flavor. I never thought of it that way. Firewarrior - I completely blanked on the cost for skills being per skill. A repriced luckstone is much more costly. Kirth - Fate's Favored (all luck bonuses increase by 1) should definitely go on the explicitly banned list of pathfinder traits for Humans.
2: So Guarded Attributes acts as a kind of DR/- for attribute damage, rather than Temporary Ability points of some kind. Got it. I am not sure what interaction made me think otherwise - I think it was the Overexertion talent combined with the text about poisons only being affected once, somehow.
To clarify on 7, about the hardness - the DC is to do maximum damage on attack vs unattended objects covered by the Craft Construction Skill. No DC or check needed to ignore 1 point of hardness per rank. My question could also read, is the maximum damage DC = 15 + 2x hardness, or DC = 15 + 2x (hardness - skill ranks, minimum 0)?
On 8: I read the +5 max enhancement bonus to AC being increased to +10 as specific to AC, not a general +5 max for all enhancement bonuses; the weapon table has a listing for epic at +6, and in the previous editions it has been possible to get enhancement bonuses over +5 to skill checks and the like. Thank you for clarifying.
On 12, about saves - I did not know that rule, thank you!
Curiosity now - for the alchemy skill check to extend and enhance, would that be 20+2 x the spell level, or 40 + 2x the spell level?