My question could also read, is the maximum damage DC = 15 + 2x hardness, or DC = 15 + 2x (hardness - skill ranks, minimum 0)?
Gotcha. The table probably should have read "actual hardness" instead of just "hardness."
Curiosity now - for the alchemy skill check to extend and enhance, would that be 20+2 x the spell level, or 40 + 2x the spell level?
I'd thought 40 + spell level, but I'm just tossing that out there off the top of my head without any real thought behind it.
1. To replicate the Channeling Shield property (18,000 gp, 3/day increase channeled dice by 1 die); would this be a 3/day usage of Practiced Channeler? At 60% the price (3/5) for the limited use? Would it be 2000 numen, the actual cleric level * 2000, or the effective cleric level * 2000?
2. Following the above, there are a number of items in Pathfinder which do something similar - gloves of dueling for the fighter, headband of havoc for a barbarian, boots of the friendly terrain for a ranger; (a) would these be feat based at 2000 numen, 2000* the actual class level, or 2000* effective class level? (b) I am assuming that effective class level can still never reach higher than 20, even though it could with some of these items. (c) Does this change for multiple iterations? Ie, a Boots of the Friendly Terrain giving a +4 bonus instead of +2.
3. If an existing item from Pathfnder/Other disagrees with the Kirthfinder pricing rules in Chapter 6, do you keep the original pricing or replace it with the new price? Examples: Luckstone. Normally 20,000 gp; new rules make items that are continuous half the cost they were before. Divine favor does not give skill, ability check, or save bonuses but is the listed spell component for the item. Would this stay 20,000, go to 15,000 (+1 luck bonus on 3 items -saves, skills, and ability checks), or would skills be a subset of ability checks (10,000 numen cost). Or the Efficient Quiver - 1800 gp is the base price. It has Secret Chest as a spell component, which is a 5th level spell and not at all a direct application of a spell effect. Would it stay 1800, or go to 900? Finally, the Necklace of Adaption uses the spell Alter Self, for a price of 9000 gp. Would it stay 9000 or go to 4500, since the spell used does not directly create the items effects?
4. Special Materials Costs - Should there be a difference based on size/weight? For example, should an adamantine dagger cost the same amount of numen as a greatsword?
5. Pricing DR; if adding +1 DR/- to adamantine heavy armor (DR 3/-), is it priced according to the additional DR or total? Ie, 4^2-3^2 = 7*500 = 3500, or 1^2 = 1*500 = 500?
6. (a) Pricing out something which could be a spell effect or a feat; The bone breaker gauntlets (cost 6000) from Pathfinder allow a 1/day strike to damage the targets Str, Dex, or Con for 1d6. This is either a 1/day Bestow Curse for 3*5*900*1/5 = 2700, or (very close to) a 1/day Crippling Strike, BAB +6 - which would be 2000*6 = 12000. Can limited use multipliers be put on a feat based effect? If so, it would be 2400 numen. (b) Related - the example in Chapter 6 fixes the Crippling Strike Damage on strength, rather than explicitly allowing it to affect strength or dexterity. Would it be able to affect dexterity?
1. Yes and yes; 2000 * higher (effective) level.
2. (a) see above; (b) not an assumption; it's a hard and fast KF rule; (c) see Firewarrior's comments above.3. I would pretty much totally ignore all the spells for items listed in the core rules, and instead pick ones that are more directly applicable, and then price everything per Chapter 6.
4. No, there should not; the effectiveness is the same. There would be a difference in gold, since you're buying more material, but no difference in how to "bind" the item to you.
5. When in doubt, use the total.
6. (a) The description indicates it's an attribute penalty, not actual damage; ray of enfeeblement (1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) = 2nd level total x CL 3rd x 500 (use-activated) x 4 (duration multiplier) = 12,000 numen. The penalty would be (1d6+1), DC 11 Fort for half, and would only last 3 rounds. (To make it last days/level instead of rounds, you'd need to Extend the spell, too, making it astronomically expensive, so I'd go with actual attribute damage -- use the damage attribute spell from the Spells chapter.)
And because spell pricing is applicable, feat pricing is not.
(b) It's an example. You could use an equivalent ray of clumsiness instead.
I would like my fighter to be able to summon his weapon/armor at least 1/day, barring being locked in a lead lined vault.
Using the [teleportation] derivations described above,
Instant Summons: Dimensional skip (1st level) + Reach Spell (close to planar; +6 levels) + Item-Specific Spell (-2 level) = 5th level spell x CL 9th x 900 (command-activated) x 1/5 (1/day use) = 8,100 numen.
1/day Instant summons with the Item-specific decrease made that a much more manageable option… Thank you! Is it a general rule that a spell can be un-meta-magicked like that? I’ve noticed deductions in a few other places on the forum replies too, which are not in the general feats or the Spells chapter.
Following up on Firewarrior’s comment about favored terrain:
Favored Terrain gives the favored terrain as the ranger class feature, with a +2 bonus, static. Maximum bonus is 2+ half/character level. Ergo, for a 6 rank terrain, max character level = 2+4 => 4x2=8 levels.
Favored Terrain as the ranger class feature gives:
- +2 Competence to initiative
- +2 competence to Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and Survival; as well as to two other skills, typically. These bonuses do not increase, and are contingent to being in the terrain.
- Flavorful, minor bonuses up to situational, conditional bonuses to various things; Terrain sight is usually given as a distance x the bonus, terrain movement is usually a negation of draw backs from terrain conditions (these can be switched though, like Fire Sight or Astral Fly speed).
- Ability to use Stealth more easily in that terrain.
Boots of the Sudden Terrain (giving a new favored terrain) would be something like 2000 numen for the feat, and if including numerical bonuses separately, 1,600 per skill for the competence bonus- typically 6 skills, so 9,600. +2 to Initiative is basically half of improved initiative (and does not stack), so half? x 2000 = 1000. Altogether 12,600. Given the dependent nature of the skills, full price does not seem accurate... maybe half price skills given that the skill bonuses only work in the specific terrain? That would be roughly ~7500 numen.
Boots of the Friendly Terrain is the original; the only spell in 3.5 or Pathfinder I can find using database searches that is even close is Terrain Bond
Also, the maximum terrain bonus is typically 12, per the text; most terrains only give new bonuses up to 8, and even some of those stop scaling (Underground’s Burrow stops at 10). Just an observation on the max vs. effective.
Three more questions:
Does Underground’s burrow allow traveling through stone?
Would the Arcane Bond feat + numen spent keeping it "current" count SLAs uncast as arcane uncast spells for the weapon bond +X enhancement feature of the bonded weapon?
In general, is the process for creating or converting an item Spell Effect -> Feat Effect -> keep original statistics or ballpark new ones with the referee?
Finally, an observation of synergy - a supply of one-use potions maintained as a supply equivalent to a use activated item can be priced at minimum CL for the spell level, and then increased via Class Skill: Alchemy's Enhance potion to give full CL, at the "cost" of the move action to retrieve the potion.
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Following up on Firewarrior’s comment about favored terrain:
Favored Terrain gives the favored terrain as the ranger class feature, with a +2 bonus, static. Maximum bonus is 2+ half/character level. Ergo, for a 6 rank terrain, max character level = 2+4 => 4x2=8 levels.
Favored Terrain as the ranger class feature gives:It seems like something like the Boots of Friendly Terrain (Increase one existing terrain’s bonus by +2) would cost 2000 x effective character level needed for the new total bonus; to go from +2 to +4, for example, would be 2000 * (2+half character level => effective character level of 4) = 8000 numen.
- +2 Competence to initiative
- +2 competence to Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and Survival; as well as to two other skills, typically. These bonuses do not increase, and are contingent to being in the terrain.
- Flavorful, minor bonuses up to situational, conditional bonuses to various things; Terrain sight is usually given as a distance x the bonus, terrain movement is usually a negation of draw backs from terrain conditions (these can be switched though, like Fire Sight or Astral Fly speed).
- Ability to use Stealth more easily in that terrain.
Boots of the Sudden Terrain (giving a new favored terrain) would be something like 2000 numen for the feat, and if including numerical bonuses separately, 1,600 per skill for the competence bonus- typically 6 skills, so 9,600. +2 to Initiative is basically half of improved initiative (and does not stack), so half? x 2000 = 1000. Altogether 12,600. Given the dependent nature of the skills, full price does not seem accurate... maybe half price skills given that the skill bonuses only work in the specific terrain? That would be...
I don't think you're math is right. I recal favored terrain feat being prohibitively expensive to price with Numen.
The bonuses granted by favored terrain are competence (5,000 numen).
The base feat of Favored terrain would cost:
Feat 2,000 Numen
Terrain Skills: (Perception, Stealth, Survival, Athletics) + Initiative: 5 x ((5,000/2) x 2 ^ 2)
52,000 Numen, With each additional skill costing +10,000 Numen
Please note I halved the Competence bonus price based on it's conditional nature.
All other things (Taking 10, terrain sight, terrain movement). Are all technically part of the 2,000 numen cost*.
*Movement and additional powers would cost more if they gave flat bonuses such as a fly speed, increased land speed, energy resistance etc.
Likewise assuming that the +2 to skills scales with favored terrain bonus (I can't find it explicitly stated but I make the assumption based on Pathfinder's version of favored terrain) Increasing the Favored terrain bonus would likewise scale the cost due to the skills involved. i.e a +4 bonus would be 40,000 Numen per skill (200,000 Numen).
If you were just increasing one of a Ranger's already existing favored terrains then you could probably apply the feat at its lowest cost ~52k ish to increase it by one step.
Firewarrior,
I did miss the competence pricing- I priced according to enhancement bonus. Oops. Thanks for catching that. However, we are making different assumptions about whether the values increase with the bonus... I am assuming they do not and only the +X bonus is increasing.
As I have been thinking of porting my homebrew world over to this system it strikes me I have not good idea for how to do a Van-Helsing style drum fed crossbow. Any suggestions?
As I have been thinking of porting my homebrew world over to this system it strikes me I have not good idea for how to do a Van Helsing-style drum fed crossbow. Any suggestions?
Assuming a light crossbow with the Manyshot feat (to cover one reload/round) isn't good enough, one possibility is to treat it as a technological/magic item. Spitballing, Invisible needle (0 level) + Reach Spell (medium; +1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Irresistible Spell (+2 levels) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 2nd level (damage cap 7d6 split among ranged touch bolts) x CL 5th x 900 (at will) = 9,000 numen. Grab the Manyshot feat for an extra attack each round; the -2 penalty hurts a lot less because you're making ranged touch attacks:
BAB +1: -1/-1 for 4d6/3d6BAB +6: +4/+4/-1 for 3d6/2d6/2d6
BAB +11: +9/+9/+4/+4 for 2d6/2d6/2d6/1d6
BAB +16: +14/+14/+9/+9/+9 for 2d6/2d6/1d6/1d6/1d6
Looks great
Yesterday I went ahead and re-constructed all the poisons in the core rulebook as if they were potions. This turned out to be fairly simple. So I now have alchemical items, poisons, firearms, and technological items all following unified spells rules and priced accordingly.
I'm also making slow headway towards making more spells (other than evocations) from the core rules + splatbooks that are simple constructions of more basic spells + metamagic. Eventually I hope to have a small collection of basic "spell seeds," along with a condensed list of metamagic feats, that are enough to determine the spell level for essentially any magic effect imaginable.
Has anyone by chance looked at armor pricing, like we alluded up-thread?
Could you provide us with the updated crafting stuff, Kirth?
I'll spoiler it, and it obviously won't be nicely formatted:
ALCHEMICAL ITEMS
Spell Level / Caster Level / Price(Single Use)/ Price (Private Stock)
0 / 1st / 25 gp / 450 numen
1 / 1st / 50 gp / 900 numen
2 / 3rd / 300 gp /5,400 numen
3 /5th / 750 gp / 13,500 numen
Acid Flask: Acid splash (0) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) + Irresistible Evocation (+3 levels) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 1d6; -2 levels) = 1st level spell; short ranged touch attack (1d6 acid to target and 1 point to adjacent squares, no SR).
For more potent acid, Reduce the spell by only one level (final spell level 2nd) and increase the caster level; the cost for each flask is 100 gp per 1d6 acid damage (5d6 max).
For acid that deals continuing damage, use the following: acid splash (0 level) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) + Lingering Evocation (1d6/round; +1 level) + Irresistible Evocation (+2 levels) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 2nd level; the costs per flask is 100 gp per 1d6 base damage (5d6 max), and the acid deals an additional 1d6 damage the next round if a DC 13 Reflex save is failed, forcing Concentration checks for casters.
For quick-enabled flasks that can be thrown as iterative attacks, use the following: acid splash (0 level) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) + Ray Splitting (+2 levels) + Irresistible Evocation (+2 levels) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 2nd level; total damage for all flasks thrown in a round is 2d6 + 1d6/caster level (max. 5th).
For alkali flasksAPG dealing damage to oozes, add Bane Spell (+1 level).
Alchemist’s Fire: As acid, but using jet of flame instead of acid splash as the base spell.
Flashstone: As in Steven Brust’s Khaavren Romances, a flashstone is simply a single-use sound burst spell (2nd level; see Appendix A).
Holy Water: Disrupt undead (0 level) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) + Bane Spell (Evil outsiders; +0 levels) = 0-level; damage is 1d6, rather than 2d4.
Ghast Retch FlaskUE: Ray of sickening (1st level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +3 levels) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 5’r.; -2 levels) + Extend Spell (2 rds to 4 rds.; +1 level) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 2nd level.
Smokestick: Fog cloud (2nd level) + Extend Spell (10 min./level to 1 minute/level; -1 level) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 10’r.; -1 level) = 0-level.
Sunrod: Light (0 level) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 30’r.; +1 level) + Extend Spell (10 min./level to 1 hour/level; +1 level) = 2nd level; sheds normal light in a 30-ft. radius, and increases ambient light level by 1 step (max. normal) for an additional 30 ft.
Tanglefoot Bag: Bind (0 level) + Residual Spell (+1 level) = 1st level; ranged touch; DC 11 Reflex or entangled 1 round; moves as if in difficult terrain even if not entangled.
Thunderstone: Deafness spell (2nd level) + Shape Spell (single target to burst; +3 levels) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 10’r.; -1 level) + Extend Spell (permanent to 1 hour; -2 levels) = 2nd level.
Tindertwig: SparkAPG (0 level).
FIREARMS
For a basic firearm, also add Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 1st level spell x CL 2nd x 500 (use-activated) = 1,000 numen cost for a wand of bullet (a basic firearm). It can be fired once per round as a ranged touch attack dealing 2d6 damage on a hit (half piercing, half force).
Firearms as Weapons: Treat firearms as a weapons group (Chapter 6), with pistols (revolvers), pistols (semi-automatic), rifles, etc. being treated as separate weapons within the group. Feats such as Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization can be applied to specific firearms as delineated above.
Characters with only Simple proficiency take a -4 competence penalty to attacks.
Any character with at least Martial proficiency can figure out how to operate firearms adequately.
Characters with Exotic proficiency gain a x3 critical multiplier.
Because firearms are technically spell-completion items, those rules still apply—i.e., a move action is needed for the material/focus component (in this case, cocking and/or reloading), and a standard action for the somatic component (in this case, aiming and firing). As with other ray spells, after the move action is taken, the subsequent standard-action attack roll can be delayed.
Jam/Misfire: Firearms jam or misfire on a natural 1, requiring a DC 15 Disable Device check to clear. This check requires a full round action for a non-proficient user, a standard action for a character with Simple proficiency, an iterative attack for a character with Martial proficiency, or a swift action for a character with Exotic proficiency.
Types of Firearms: Specialized design components can be added by modifying the specs, resulting in a variety of other types of firearms. Some examples are included below.
.22 derringer: Bullet (2nd level) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (5d6 to 1d6; -1 level) = 0 level x CL 1st x 500 = 250 numen; deals 1d6 damage on a close ranged attack (not touch) 1/round. This is the cheapest firearm available; it is also less effective on the whole than a hand crossbow.
.45 “hog leg:” Bullet (2nd level) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 1st level spell x CL 5th x 500 = 2,500 numen. One ranged touch attack/round deals 5d6 damage. By adding Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level), the cost increases to 5,000 numen and you have something like Dirty Harry’s Smith and Wesson M29 with the .44 magnum cartridges.
Semi-automatic pistol or repeating revolver: Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 2nd level spell x CL 4th x 500 = 4,000 numen; damage is 3d6 per shot for up to 2/round, or 2d6 per shot for 3/round, or 1d6 per shot for more than that (based on the user’s BAB and feats). Assume that reloading (for the revolver) occurs between shots at some point and does not require an additional move action.
For something like a Desert Eagle, increase CL to 5th (cost 5,000 numen) and the total damage is 7d6, divided as evenly as possible among all shots fired that round (maximum 5d6 for one shot).
Submachine gun (Full-Auto Only): Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 2nd level spell x CL 3rd x 500 = 3,000 numen total. It deals 3d6 damage (DC 13 Reflex half) in a 130-ft. line. These stats represent something like a Tommy gun.
Submachine gun (Select Fire): Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Variable Spell (+1 level; Ray Splitting, +1 level; or Shape Spell, ray to line, +1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 3rd level spell x CL 5th x 500 = 7,500 numen total. Can be fired iteratively (Medium ranged attacks) for 4d6 per shot (2 shots), 3d6 each (3 shots), or 2d6 each (more than 3) with ranged attacks; alternatively, it can be used for fully-automatic fire, dealing 5d6 damage (DC 14 Reflex half) in a 150-ft. line. These stats represent something like an UZI.
Rifle: Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to extreme; +2 levels) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 500 = 3,000 numen; it deals 3d6 damage on a ranged attack, and is accurate up to 1,300 ft. These stats represent something like a Sharps rifle or Lee-Enfield.
Rifle, assault: Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to long; +2 levels) + Variable Spell (+1 level; Ray Splitting, +1 level; or Shape Spell, ray to line, +1 level) + Reduce Spell (20d6 to 10d6; -2 levels) = 4th level spell x CL 8th x 500 = 16,000 numen total. Can be fired iteratively (Long ranged touch attacks) for 6d6 per shot (2 shots), 4d6 each (3 shots), 3d6 each (4 shots), or 2d6 each (more than 4); alternatively, it can be used for fully-automatic fire, dealing 8d6 damage (DC 16 Reflex half) in a 720-ft. line.
Rifle, High-Powered: Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to extreme; +3 levels) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 500 = 7,500 numen; it deals 5d6 damage on a ranged touch attack, and is accurate up to 1,500 ft.
Rifle, Heavy Sniper: Bullet (2nd level) + Reach Spell (close to line of sight; +3 levels) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 10d6; -1 level) = 4th level x CL 7th x 500 = 14,000 numen total; it deals 7d6 damage on a ranged touch attack, and can be fired up to 1.75 miles under ideal conditions.
Shotgun: Bullet (2nd level) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 500 = 7,500 numen; deals 5d6 damage (DC 14 Reflex half) in a 60-ft. cone, for a standard 12-gauge shotgun. For an 8- or 10-gauge gun, reduce the spell only to 4th and increase the caster level to 7th or even 10th.
POISONS
Arsenic: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+1 level) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 2nd x 50 = 300 gp/dose (5,400 numen to stock); DC 13 ingested, onset 10 min., 1d4 Con/min. for 2 min., cure 1 save.
Belladonna: Damage attribute (Str; 1st level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) + Cascade Spell (remove curse; +3 levels) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) = 3rd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 450 gp/dose (8,100 numen to stock); DC 14 ingested, 1d4 Str/min. for 3 min. and additional save to cure lycanthrope, cure 1 save.
Black Adder Venom: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 450 gp/dose (8,100 numen to stock); DC 14 injury, 1d4 Con/round for 2 rds, cure 1 save.
Black Lotus Extract: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Empower Spell (+2 levels) + Heighten Spell (+1 level) = 7th level x CL 6th x 50 = 2,100 gp/dose (37,800 numen to stock); DC 20 contact, onset 1 min., (1.5 x 1d4 Con)/round for 6 rounds, cure 2 saves.
Bloodroot: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (damage attribute: Wis; +1 level) + Ritual Spell (-1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 300 gp/dose (5,400 numen to stock); DC 14 injury, onset 1 round, 1d4 Con and 1d4 Wis.
Blue Whinnis: Whelm (0 level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (inst. to 1 rd./level; +2 levels) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 300 gp (5,400 numen to stock); DC 13 injury, 5d6 nonlethal/round for 3 rds.
Burnt Othur Fumes: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Crippling Debilitation (+1 level) + Reach Spell (touch to close; +1 level) + Shape Spell (spread; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 10’r.; -1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) = 6th level x CL 11th x 50 = 3,300 gp/dose (59,400 numen to stock); DC 19 inhaled, 1d4 Con drain/rd. for 11 rds, cure 2 saves.
Centipede Venom: Damage attribute (Dex; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (-1 level) = 1st level x CL 1st x 50 = 50 gp/dose (900 numen to stock); DC 11 injury, 1d4 Dex.
Dark Reaver Powder: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (damage attribute: Str; +1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 50 = 750 gp/dose (13,500 numen to stock); DC 14 ingested, onset 10 min., 1d4 Con and 1d4 Str/min. for 5 min., cure 2 saves.
Deathblade: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) = 4th level x CL 5th x 50 = 1,000 gp/dose (18,000 numen to stock); DC 17 injury, 1d4 Con/round for 5 rds, cure 2 saves.
Dragon Bile: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Extend Spell (+3 levels) + Inexorable Spell (+3 levels) + Heighten Spell (+2 levels) = 7th level x CL 5th x 50 = 1,750 gp/dose (31,500 numen to stock); DC 20 contact, onset immediate, 1d4 Str/round for 5 rds, no automatic cure if initial save is failed.
Giant Wasp Venom: Damage attribute (Dex; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 450 gp/dose (8,100 numen to stock); DC 14 injury, 1d4 Dex/round for 3 rds., cure 1 save.
Greenblood Oil: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 300 gp/dose; DC 13 injury, 1d4 Con.
Hemlock: Damage attribute (Dex; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (damage attribute: Con; 1st level) + Empower Spell (+2 levels) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) = 5th level x CL 9th x 50 = 2,250 gp/dose (40,500 numen to stock); DC 17 ingested, onset 10 min., 1.5 x (1d4 Dex plus 1d4 Con)/min. for 9 min., cure 2 saves.
Id Moss: Damage attribute (Int; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 1st level x CL 5th x 50 = 250 gp/dose (4,500 numen to stock); DC 11 ingested, onset 10 min., 1d4 Int./minute for 5 min., cure 1 save.
Insanity Mist: Damage attribute (Wis; 1st level) + Reach Spell (close; +1 level) + Shape Spell (spread; +2 levels) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 5th level x CL 5th x 50 = 1,250 gp/dose (22,500 numen to stock); DC 17 inhaled, 1d4 Wis/round for 5 rds, cure 1 save.
King’s Sleep: Major curse (6th level) + Crippling Debilitation (+1 level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) = 6th level x CL 11th x 50 = 3,300 gp/dose (59,400 numen to stock); DC 19 ingested, onset 1 day, 1 Con drain/day until cured, cure 2 consecutive saves (and +5 to DC to treat with Heal skill).
Lich Dust: Damage attribute (Str; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) = 2nd level x CL 4th x 50 = 400 gp/dose (7,200 numen to stock); DC 13 ingested, onset 10 min., 1d4 Str/minute for 4 min., cure 2 saves.
Malyass Root Paste: Damage attribute (Dex; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 3 x 50 = 450 gp/dose (8,100 numen to stock); DC 14 contact, onset 1 min., 1d4 Dex/min. for 3 min., cure 1 save.
Nitharit: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 50 = 750 gp/dose (13,500 numen to stock); DC 14 contact, onset 1 min., 1d4 Dex/min. for 5 min., cure 1 save.
Purple Worm Poison: Damage attribute (Str; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Heighten Spell (+5 levels) = 9th level x CL 5th x 50 = 2,250 gp/dose (40,500 numen to stock); DC 23 injury, 1d4 Str/rd. for 5 rds., cure 2 saves.
Sassone Leaf Residue: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (ray of entropy; +1 level) + Extend Spell (+1 level) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 2nd x 50 = 300 gp/dose (5,400 numen to stock); DC 14 contact, onset 1 min., 1d4 Con and 10d6 hp/min. for 2 min., cure 1 save.
Scorpion Venom: Damage attribute (Str; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 50 = 750 gp/dose (13,500 numen to stock); DC 14 injury, 1d4 Str/rd. for 5 rds., cure 1 save.
Shadow Essence: Damage attribute (Str; 1st level) + Crippling Debilitation (+1 level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 4th level x CL 3rd x 50 = 600 gp/dose (10,300 numen to stock); DC 16 injury, 1d4 Str drain/rd. for 3 rds., cure 1 save.
Spider Venom: Damage attribute (Str; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+1 level) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 300 gp/dose (5,400 numen to stock); DC 13 injury, 1d4 Str/rd. for 2 rds., cure 1 save.
Striped Toadstool: Damage attribute (Wis; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Channel Spell (damage attribute: Int; +1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 50 = 300 gp/dose (5,400 numen to stock); DC 13 ingested, onset 10 min., 1d4 Wis and 1d4 Int/minute for 3 min., cure 1 save.
Tears of Death: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (damage attribute Dex; +1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Inexorable Spell (+3 levels) = 8th level x CL 6th x 50 = 2,400 gp/dose (43,200 numen to stock); DC 22 contact, 1d4 Con and 1d4 Dex/min. for 6 min., no natural cure if initial save failed.
Terinav Root: Damage attribute (Dex; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 50 = 750 gp/dose (13,500 numen to stock); DC 14 contact, onset 1 min., 1d4 Dex/min. for 5 min., cure 1 save.
Ungol Dust: Damage attribute (Cha; 1st level) + Crippling Debilitation (+1 level) + Reach Spell (close; +1 level) + Shape Spell (spread; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 10’r.; -1 level) = 4th level x CL 7th x 50 = 1,800 gp/dose (25,200 numen to stock); DC 16 inhaled, 1d4 Cha drain.
Wolfsbane: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Delay Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) + Specific Spell (ingested; -2 levels) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) + Heighten Spell (+1 level) = 2nd level x CL 5th x 50 = 500 gp/dose (9,000 numen to stock); DC 13 ingested, onset 10 min., 1d4 Con/minute for 5 min., cure 1 save.
Wyvern Poison: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Extend Spell (+2 levels) = 4th level x CL 7th x 50 = 1,400 gp/dose (25,200 numen to stock); DC 16 injury, 1d4 Con/rd. for 7 rds., cure 2 saves.
TECHNOLOGICAL ITEMS
Arc Pistol: Electric arc (0) + Conductive Spell (+1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 750 = 4,500 numen; ranged touch deals 2d6 (up to 2 shots/round) or 1d6 (3+ shots) electrical damage; +4 to hit metal-armored targets.
Arc Rifle: Electric arc (0) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Conductive Spell (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 750 = 11,250 numen; 5d6 damage in a 130-ft. line (DC 14 Reflex half).
Atom Gun: Damage attribute (Con; 1st level) + Crippling Debilitation (+1 level) + Reach Spell (touch to close; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (contagion; +3 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +1 level) = 7th level x CL 13th x 900 (command-activated) x 3/5 (3 charges/day) = 49,140 numen; deals 1d4 Con drain and inflicts blinding sickness (DC 20 Fort half/negates).
Chainsaw: Invocation of the knife (0 level) + Extend Spell (inst. to 1 min./level; +3 levels) + Cascade Spell (keen edge; +3 levels) + Reach Spell (close to touch; -1 level) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) + Tenuous Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (-1 level) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 750 = 4,500 numen. One melee attack/round deals 3d6/19-20 slashing damage. The chainsaw shuts off after 3 minutes; if a creature or object is attacked over multiple rounds, a successful Reflex save (DC 13; check each round) also causes the chainsaw to shut off.
Death Ray: Ray of entropy (1st level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Maximize Spell (+2 levels) + Empower Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (damage attribute: Con; +1 level) + Crippling Debilitation (+1 level) + Shape Spell (targeted burst; +0 levels) = 7th level x CL 13th x 750 = 68,250 numen; ranged touch attack deals 6d6+78 hp negative energy damage (Fort half) and disintegrates slain creatures.
EMP Pistol: Electric arc (0 level) + Ray Splitting (+2 levels) + Dazing Spell (+2 levels) + Creature-Specific Spell (constructs; -2 levels) = 2nd level x CL 4th x 750 = 6,000 numen; up to 2 shots/round for 3d6 each, 3 for 2d6 each, or 4+ for 1d6 each.
EMP Rifle: Electric arc (0 level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Dazing Spell (+2 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) + Creature-Specific Spell (constructs; -2 levels) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 750 = 4,500 numen; deals 3d6 damage (save half) in a 130-ft. line.
Force Field: Reduced false life (1st level) and lesser vigor (1st level); the effects activate simultaneously because the fast healing applies to the temporary hp, not to the user; each charge lasts 10 rounds + 1/level or until the temporary hp are reduced to 0; 750 x 1 x 1 x 2 = 1,500 numen. For every additional step, add 1 to the spell levels and increase the caster level accordingly:
Color Temp hp Fast Heal Spell Level CL Numen
Brown 5 1 1 1 1,500
Black 12 2 2 3 9,000
White 14 3 3 5 22,500
Gray 20 4 4 7 42,000
Green 27 5 5 9 67,500
Red 34 6 6 11 99,000
Blue 42 7 7 13 136,500
Orange 49 8 8 15 180,000
Prism. 57 9 9 17 229,500
Laser Pistol: Jet of flame (0 level) + ghost touch (+5 levels) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (20d6 to 1d6; -4 levels) = 2nd level x CL 3rd x 750 = 4,500 numen; close ranged touch (up to 3 iterative attacks) for 1d6 fire; ignores [force] effects.
Laser Rifle: Jet of flame (0 level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + ghost touch (+4 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) + Reduce Spell (20d6 to 5d6; -3 levels) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 750 = 11,250 numen; 5d6 fire in a 130-ft. line (DC 14 Reflex half) and ignores [force] effects.
Monowhip: Invocation of the knife (0 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + keen edge (+3 levels) + touch of adamantine (+5 levels) + Reduce Spell (-4 levels) = 5th level x CL 10th x 750 = 37,500 numen; ranged touch attacks against targets up to 25 ft. away dealing 5d6/19-20 slashing (1 or 2 attacks/round), 3d6/19-20 (3 attacks), or 2d6/19-20 (4 attacks).
Nuclear Resonator: Sound lance (1st level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Empower Spell (+1 level) + Dazing Spell (+2 levels) + Deafening Spell (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) = 7th level x CL 13th x 750 = 68,250 numen; 210-ft. line deals 19d6 sonic and dazes 1 round and deafens 13 rounds (DC 20 Reflex half/neg.).
Neurocam: Astral seedSRD (8th level) x CL 13th x 50 (single-use) = 5,200 numen.
Null Blade: +1 bastard sword (2,000) + adamantine (18,100) + construct bane (14,000) + charge-activated quickened dispel magic at CL 11th (49,500) = 83,600 numen.
Plasmathrower: Jet of flame (0 level) + Energy Admixture (electricity; +0 levels) + Variable Spell (+1 level); 15,750 numen.
Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + keen edge (+3 levels) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 4th level spell, CL 7th; 1 shot medium (ranged touch) for 5d6/19-20 (half fire, half electricity), 2 for 4d6/19-20 each, or 3 for 3d6/19-20 each.
Shape Spell (ray to cone; +2 levels) + Widen Spell (30 ft. to 60 ft.; +1 level) = 4th level spell, CL 7th; 7d6 damage in a 60-ft. cone (half fire, half electricity); DC 16 Reflex half.
Rail Gun: Invisible needle (0 level) + Reach Spell (close to long; +2 levels) + Energy Admixture (force; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) + Empower Spell (+1 level) = 5th level x CL 9th x 750 = 33,750 numen; 7d6 piercing plus 6d6 force damage in a 680-ft. line (DC 17 Reflex half).
Rocket Launcher: Jet of flame (0 level) + Energy Admixture (bludgeoning; +0 levels) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +2 levels) + Empower Spell (+1 level) = 4th level, CL 8th; single-use item dealing 6d6 fire and 6d6 bludgeoning damage in a 20’r. (DC 16 Reflex half); 1,600 numen.
Sonic Pistol: Sound lance (1st level) + Cascade Spell (deafness; +3 levels) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 1d6; -3 levels) = 2nd level, CL 3rd; close ranged touch attack deals 1d6 sonic and DC 14 Fort or permanently deafened; up to 3 shots/round (iterative); 4,500 numen.
Sonic Rifle: Sound lance (1st level) + Reach Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (deafness; +2 levels) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (15d6 to 5d6; -2 levels) = 3rd level, CL 5th; 1 medium ranged touch attack deals 5d6 sonic and DC 14 Fort or deafened (or 2 attacks for 4d6 each, or 3 or 4 for 2d6 each); 11,250 numen.
Stun Baton: Light mace with electric arc (0 level) + Staggering Spell (+2 levels) + Channel Spell (+1 level) + Reach Spell (close to touch; -1 level) + Merciful Spell (on/off; +0 levels) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 1st level, CL 1st; on activation, hit deals +1d6 electrical or +1d6 nonlethal, and DC 11 Fort or staggered 1 round; 750 numen.
Stun Gun: Whelm (0 level) + Toppling Spell (+1 level) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 1st level, CL 2nd; close ranged touch deals 3d6 nonlethal (or 2-3 iterative shots deal 1d6 each) plus trip; 1,500 numen.
Vortex Gun: Bolt of force (2nd level) + Sickening Spell (nausea; +3 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to cone; +1 level) + Widen Spell (30 ft. to 120 ft.; +2 levels) + Cascade Spell (control winds; +5 levels) + Ritual Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (25d6 to 10d6; -3 levels) = 9th level, CL 18th; deals 10d6 force damage plus 1 round of nausea (DC 23 Reflex half/negates) and projects hurricane winds in a 120-ft. cone, knocking prone Medium or smaller creatures (and DC 15 Str or blown back 10-40 ft.); 121,500 numen.
X-Laser: Jet of flame (0 level) + Reach Spell (close to long; +2 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) + Empower Spell (+1 level) = 4th level x CL 8th x 750 = 24,000 numen; 12d6 fire damage in 560-ft. line (DC 16 Reflex half).
Zero Pistol: Ray of frost (0 level) + Staggering Spell (+2 levels) + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (10d6 to 5d6; -1 level) = 2nd level x CL 4th x 750 = 6,000 numen; 1-2 shots/round (close ranged touch) for 3d6 cold each, or 3 for 2d6 each, or 4+ for 1d6 each, plus DC 13 Fort or staggered 3 rounds.
Zero Rifle: Ray of frost (0 level) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Staggering Spell (+1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to line; +1 level) = 3rd level x CL 5th x 750 = 11,250 numen; 5d6 cold and staggered 5 rds. in a 130-ft. line (DC 14 Fort half/negates).
Haven't looked it over yet Kirth but I have vacation next week so i'll take a look at the armors. What exactly are you needed done?
Haven't looked it over yet Kirth but I have vacation next week so i'll take a look at the armors. What exactly are you needed done?
My hope was to "zero out" the pricing for basic armor types by adjusting the individual costs for AC bonus, ACP, spell failure, weight, metallic/nonmetallic, etc. If we could do that, you'd then be able to make any armor imaginable by setting values and seeing what the numen cost (if any) would be.
Have to say, now that I've had a chance to get used to PbP again, I'm regretting skipping out of Savage Tide. Still, doubt I'd have been any better of a player then if I had stuck it out.
Feel free to rejoin once we leave the Lotus Dragon HQ -- maybe they'll run into Rose in town, for example (or maybe she's been doing other stuff for Lavinia).
Haven't looked it over yet Kirth but I have vacation next week so i'll take a look at the armors. What exactly are you needed done?My hope was to "zero out" the pricing for basic armor types by adjusting the individual costs for AC bonus, ACP, spell failure, weight, metallic/nonmetallic, etc. If we could do that, you'd then be able to make any armor imaginable by setting values and seeing what the numen cost (if any) would be.
Okay I'll take a look. Now when you say basic the Kirthfinder list or the full CRB list?
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Have to say, now that I've had a chance to get used to PbP again, I'm regretting skipping out of Savage Tide. Still, doubt I'd have been any better of a player then if I had stuck it out.Feel free to rejoin once we leave the Lotus Dragon HQ -- maybe they'll run into Rose in town, for example (or maybe she's been doing other stuff for Lavinia).
Still not sure I'm up to learning Kirthfinder all over again. How far have they gotten?
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Okay I'll take a look. Now when you say basic the Kirthfinder list or the full CRB list?
The KF list was an attempt to create some sort of manageable set of options from the insane PF glut, which often seemed to have no rhyme or reason to ACP, ASF, and pricing. If we end up making a "generic medium armor" that ends up being zero numen, for example, we should be able to stat up any PF armor by starting with that and applying +/- bonuses, using the costs in Chapter 6 (which probably need to be modified to make it work).
So, PF "purple mountain ten mirrors cat poop armor" from the Oriental Equipment Guide (or whatever) might be generic medium armor with -2 ACP (400) and -10% weight (+200) = 600 numen cost.
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How far have they gotten?
Still on the 1st adventure. They've sort of gotten bogged down in the Lotus Dragon HQ -- in retrospect, I should have cut 3/4 of it (as Andostre is always eager to remind me).
Use Fire burning the chaff is so much more fun!
Kirth are you still updating the PDF or how can I have the latest version of Kirthfinder?
I gave it a read long ago and I found it an interesting reading so I will like to see what comes next
The only updates are stuff that we spitball here. I have very little time now, between work and a toddler at home, to keep up any sort of update schedule. One day I hope to standardize combat (e.g., why do cats and people follow totally two totally different sets of melee rules?) and spells, and figure out some way to distribute the monster conversions -- but that may be years from now.
Th most up-to-date rules I know of on line (which are nonetheless a few years out of date) are HERE.
Thanks nonetheless, I can only wish you to get some free time then
Kirth, I made a couple attempts at solving the armors numerically with matrices and simultaneous equations, and the results were... not useful. I was able to find a matrix solution that included all but the plate armor, but values were ridiculously high - like several tens of thousand of gold/numen to reduce ACP, and then tens of thousands the other way for increasing weight, etc, to end up with a 25 GP leather armor or whatever.
I took a halfhearted stab at it once with a simple Excel sheet and never quite got back to it.
EDIT: Revisiting my sheet leads me to suspect that, using existing price mods, ring mail is WAY too good, and that plate armor might not be good enough. This in turn leads me to suspect that AC bonus should cost more.
Unfortunately, that's constrained by the fact that +1 AC +5 hp +1 hardness -1 ACP = 1,000 numen (the cost of +1 armor).
Likewise, the need to price mwk armor based on ACP means that value needs to be within a fairly small range.
Reducing the cost of arcane spell failure might help, but that's contra-indicated as a basic design goal.
Kirth,
You may not need to tie it so closely to the cost increase for +1 armor - that is an enhancement bonus to armor, which will not stack with other bonuses. Actual armor AC does stack with enhancement bonuses, and should (in my mind) be free to be priced differently, though probably with an exponential growth (cost*value squared structure) rather than a geometric increase. That is actually my concern about full plate... In the example in Ch. 6, "Full Plate" is the same AC and approximate cost as Core Rules... but since the last +1 is enhancement, it ultimately decreases the maximum bonus possible by 1. That's more of a rules cohesion nitpick and talking end-of-game level 20+ play, though.
That's a good point. If the pricing structure were different, we could also get away from "dragonhide is +10 leather armor" (or whatever) stuff from the special materials section, too.
Thinking about the armor bonus led me to thinking about several spells... The new cap for armor is +10 enhancement bonus, vs the old +5. Spells like Magic Vestment are still limited without being heightened; a level 8 magic vestment (at 20th level) would be able to match the 100,000 cost of +10 armor for ~20 hours per day (dispellable), at a 1/day command word cost of 28,800; alternatively, as an additional prepared spell slot it would be 128,000 for an eighth level slot. Obviously for a caster with the spell on their list they can cast or know whatever their class allows; but what is your feeling on using command word activated items for hour/level, 2 hour/level, or 24 hour buffs? Should numerical bonus rules trump that? Even some 10 min/level buffs may fall into the same category... That's 3 hours per casting at 20th level. Even at 6th its an hour. For example, Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Greater Resistance (and heightened), Longstrider, Deadeye's Lore, even something like Jump - unlimited use activated would cover most of the cases a straight bonus to athletics for jumping would.
Per earlier posts, continuous spell effects that give bonuses are priced numerically. Continuous spell effects which are dispelled return moments later; is that difference worth the difference in cost between a "permanent" buff and the hours/level or 2 hours/level version?
Wands and the staff like wand feat coupled with minute per level spells or greater. You can keep them up indefinitely past he first few levels on the entire party.
Example a Wand of Bulls strength costs 4,800 Gp and could be put on every person in the party constantly. Turning your 4,800 gold into effectively 64,000 Gp (4 man party)
Wands and the staff like wand feat coupled with minute per level spells or greater. You can keep them up indefinitely past he first few levels on the entire party.
Yeah, that's a problem with the feat that I'll have to address. Thanks.
Spells like Magic Vestment are still limited without being heightened; a level 8 magic vestment (at 20th level) would be able to match the 100,000 cost of +10 armor for ~20 hours per day (dispellable), at a 1/day command word cost of 28,800; alternatively, as an additional prepared spell slot it would be 128,000 for an eighth level slot. Obviously for a caster with the spell on their list they can cast or know whatever their class allows; but what is your feeling on using command word activated items for hour/level, 2 hour/level, or 24 hour buffs? Should numerical bonus rules trump that?
My feeling is that 1 hour/level should be the max duration for any baseline spell; more than that should require additional numen investiture. That would apply to stuff like secret page and glyph of warding, in addition to buffs that you Extend. When I issue the revised Spells chapter, this will be spelled out in detail, with costs.
So, yes, you can price a command-activated item for a Heightened magic vestment that lasts 1 hour/level, based on spell level x CL, and yes, if it's dispelled, too bad for you. Or you can buy a continuous "=X" AC item using the numerical bonus rules, and get it all the time. But if you try to make a 1/day item that gives 24-hour protection, that won't work.
This isn't quite where you are trying to go with armor, but one of the things I really liked finding in 3.5 material was a handful of "improvements" to armor or weapons which could only be applied at the time things were crafted - Vital Coverage increased the AC vs critical hits only, Segmented increased the max Dex bonus, reinforced Armor increased AC by 1 but also weight by 10%, Caster Armor which decreases ASF by 5% etc; these all cost some amount of gold and increased the DC to craft the item. Since the existing armors have been greatly simplified, perhaps it may be better to GM Fiat the pricing/abilities and allow customization in this manner and call everything good? Although if what you really want is the formula for new armor, then this does not help much.
Follow-up: Natural attacks (and difference between it and unarmed strikes) pose a problematic gray area in the rules, as does mounted combat and three-dimensional combat.
I agree.
Are there any planned changes or musings around them?
As yet, nothing coherent enough to even grace with the word "musings."
Missing Text: Torture Strike Feat lacks the bonus given, at least in the version I have access to.
Questions I have:
Staredown states that at BAB +16 / Bluff 16, you gain the Frightful Presence ability, and for certain actions Staredown automatically effects opponents within 30’.
1. Is this the monster ability Frightful Presence, with a save DC of 10 + ½ HD + CHA, or automatic application of Staredown, or both?
2. While in a rage, what save DC applies to the check - d20+ Bluff modifiers to demoralize, 10+ Bluff modifiers to demoralize, or 10 + ½ HD + CHA? Does this allow Demoralize to push someone to frightened/panicked/cowering given a high enough check?
3. Does Ability Focus (Frightful Presence) apply to any of these checks?
4. Does Intimidating Prowess at sufficiently high levels allow you to add STR to the DC?
5. Does this count as Frightful Presence for the purposes of spells, items, and feats which affect Frightful Presence?
6. Does the spell Bolster Aura (Increase effective HD for auras) affect Frightful Presence?
7. Does fighter bonus damage from Weapon Training multiply on a critical hit?
8. Are the Power over Shadow checks supposed to be 1 hour/DC, so that a DC 20 to find a common item takes all day? Can that be sped up by adding 20 to the DC and making it 1 minute/DC instead?
9. Can Arcane Bond (Weapon) be powered by SLA’s from Magical Talent Array, or only via spell slots/casting?
10. Is Battle Touch + Spell Strike meant to allow, for example, one casting of Bestow Curse to hit four opponents in the same round, with a high enough BAB?
11. Per earlier discussions, should 2 hour/level and 24 hour spells (Mind Blank, Ant Haul, etc) be shortened to hour/level explicitly in the Spells section on changes?
12. Should Competence Bonuses to skills be priced at 4000 per +1, rather than 5000* bonus squared? Going off of Skill Focus at 2000 per level of feat, and needing two ranks per +1 of bonus. This would be geometric, so it would be 8000 for +2, 12,000 for +3,.. 40k for +10, not 500k - and limited to half the number of ranks maximum.
13. Per the Spells/Introduction, arcane spells give enhancement bonuses and bard spells give morale bonuses. I am assuming that cleric/ranger/druid are sacred/divine; what happens to spells that are insight, competence, luck, etc, when it makes sense? IE, Good Fortune spells, Deadly Juggernaut are luck, prayer, divine insight is insight, etc - Do they all get re-descripted?
1. Is this the monster ability Frightful Presence, with a save DC of 10 + ½ HD + CHA, or automatic application of Staredown, or both?
2. While in a rage, what save DC applies to the check - d20+ Bluff modifiers to demoralize, 10+ Bluff modifiers to demoralize, or 10 + ½ HD + CHA? Does this allow Demoralize to push someone to frightened/panicked/cowering given a high enough check?
3. Does Ability Focus (Frightful Presence) apply to any of these checks?
4. Does Intimidating Prowess at sufficiently high levels allow you to add STR to the DC?
5. Does this count as Frightful Presence for the purposes of spells, items, and feats which affect Frightful Presence?
6. Does the spell Bolster Aura (Increase effective HD for auras) affect Frightful Presence?
1. In essence, you're demoralizing everyine within 30 ft. as a non-action. The text has been clarified. Will DC 10 + Bluff modifier or shaken, 0 + Bluff modifier or frightened, Bluff -5 or panicked, Bluff-10 or cowering. Monsters with frightful presence simply have the Staredown feat.
2. Rage is now applied as a straight morale bonus to all d20 rolls and DCs (see revised barbarian a few pages back).3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Examples, please.
6. Source? In any event, your # ranks in Bluff can't exceed your HD, even with spells.
7. Does fighter bonus damage from Weapon Training multiply on a critical hit?
8. Are the Power over Shadow checks supposed to be 1 hour/DC, so that a DC 20 to find a common item takes all day? Can that be sped up by adding 20 to the DC and making it 1 minute/DC instead?
9. Can Arcane Bond (Weapon) be powered by SLA’s from Magical Talent Array, or only via spell slots/casting?
10. Is Battle Touch + Spell Strike meant to allow, for example, one casting of Bestow Curse to hit four opponents in the same round, with a high enough BAB?
11. Per earlier discussions, should 2 hour/level and 24 hour spells (Mind Blank, Ant Haul, etc) be shortened to hour/level explicitly in the Spells section on changes?
12. Should Competence Bonuses to skills be priced at 4000 per +1, rather than 5000* bonus squared? Going off of Skill Focus at 2000 per level of feat, and needing two ranks per +1 of bonus. This would be geometric, so it would be 8000 for +2, 12,000 for +3,.. 40k for +10, not 500k...
7. Just like Str bonus to damage, enhancement bonus to damage, etc., etc.
8. You'd use the standard rules for faster skill checks, given at the beginning of Chapter 4.9. Yes.
10. Yes.
11. Either that, or else cost numen investiture as an additional component. That will be spelled out if I ever get a fully-revised magic chapter completed.
12. No. You can't use feat pricing if numeric bonus pricing can potentially apply. Not even if a feat exists. Not even if a spell exists. You cannot do it in a box. You cannot do it with a fox. You cannot price inherent numerical bonuses by other methods. Period. Also, skill bonuses from magic are always enhancement bonuses, per the KF restrictions on bonus types, so you can't have items that grant competence bonuses to skills.
Kirth,
Thanks for the answers! In regards to the question on Rage, that stemmed more from not knowing what the actual DC was based on (X+Bluff, as it turns out), not what the rage bonus added to.
On 5, the spell Aura of Terror from Draconomicon gives a similar ability, or if you have Frightful Presence enhances it by increasing the fear step by 1 (shaken to frightened, etc), the range by 10', and the save DC if the spell based DC is higher. It would mostly be useful for a DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + CHA check, since there are so few ways to increase that. Actually, the clarification you gave removes the usefulness of most items/spells/feats that interact with Frightful Presence by subsuming them into Staredown.
6, the spell Bolster Aura is from Complete Champion and for every 2 caster levels increases effective HD by 1 for purposes of such calculations. Again, no longer relevant with the clarified DC.
My question on 12 came out of the earlier discussions on favored terrain and having an item (like the Boots of Friendly Terrain) which would increase your favored terrain bonus - which increase might be intended to improve the given competence bonuses as well - and how to allow that. It may not be allowable, given the current rules.
My last question (13) was not about magic items granting bonuses, but about the spell bonuses themselves.
My last question (13) was not about magic items granting bonuses, but about the spell bonuses themselves.
Oops -- I missed one. Let's see here:
13. Per the Spells/Introduction, arcane spells give enhancement bonuses and bard spells give morale bonuses. I am assuming that cleric/ranger/druid are sacred/divine; what happens to spells that are insight, competence, luck, etc, when it makes sense? IE, Good Fortune spells, Deadly Juggernaut are luck, prayer, divine insight is insight, etc - Do they all get re-descripted?
Thematically, cleric spells would provide sacred/profane bonuses, but I'd have to go through them one by one to be sure that works. Again, if I ever manage to complete the whole "seed spell + metamagic = line of spells" thing, most of these questions will be pre-answered.
Also, the "all bard spells provide morale bonuses" thing might need to be revisited in light of the revision to barbarian rage maintenance. No sense in allowing a 500 gp constant-effect bard cantrip item to grant infinite rage.
Was poking around some more at the new barbarian as well as multiclassing a fighter with cleric or barbarian levels, and had a few questions and thoughts.
1. The new barbarian totem gives a Favored Terrain as part of the totem; does that favored terrain scale at twice the rage bonus, or some other factor? Or is it like the Human Bonus Feat which just gives a single +2?
2. Does the Feat Favored Terrain grant the competence bonuses as a Ranger would? Or is it like the barbarian which explicitly calls out NOT receiving the competence bonuses? If it does not, that could help with the issue of trying to price a "Practiced Terrain" or Boots of the Friendly Terrain style item.
3. How do stacking bonus feats play out? The section in Chapter 1 on stacking class features does not specify. For example, a multiclassed Barbarian and Fighter gets Vital Strike as a bonus feat at Barbarian 1 and Fighter 6.
4. The Order of the Raven Knightly Order gives a multiclassed Fighter/Cleric weak Theurgy at Fighter level 15, but does not stack with Templar. However, it makes for a massive gameplay jump at Character Level 16+; from casting as a 1-3rd level cleric for most of the game and then suddenly casting as a 8-12th level cleric, depending on the exact mix of levels. I realize the Order of the Raven gives Daunting Strike at first level, so the free feat/talent pattern is already filled; but would taking the Templar talent and then exchanging it for another at fighter level 15 be in line with the rules, or would that be “gaming” the system?
5. Had an idea for grit points - spend two points (or 3 or 4 or 5, whatever seems balanced) to gain the use of a single feat for a longer duration than 1 round; 1 minute, maybe? Like an Extend metamagic? Trades versatility later for more duration now, without pushing the action economy boundaries with multiple feats simultaneously.
Maybe the option to spend a grit for a day to temporarily retrain a single combat feat (with a time cost of an hour or whatever) until the next time you rest.
1. The new barbarian totem gives a Favored Terrain as part of the totem; does that favored terrain scale at twice the rage bonus, or some other factor? Or is it like the Human Bonus Feat which just gives a single +2?
2. Does the Feat Favored Terrain grant the competence bonuses as a Ranger would? Or is it like the barbarian which explicitly calls out NOT receiving the competence bonuses? If it does not, that could help with the issue of trying to price a "Practiced Terrain" or Boots of the Friendly Terrain style item.
3. How do stacking bonus feats play out? The section in Chapter 1 on stacking class features does not specify. For example, a multiclassed Barbarian and Fighter gets Vital Strike as a bonus feat at Barbarian 1 and Fighter 6.
4. The Order of the Raven Knightly Order gives a multiclassed Fighter/Cleric weak Theurgy at Fighter level 15, but does not stack with Templar. However, it makes for a massive gameplay jump at Character Level 16+; from casting as a 1-3rd level cleric for most of the game and then suddenly casting as a 8-12th level cleric, depending on the exact mix of levels. I realize the Order of the Raven gives Daunting Strike at first level, so the free feat/talent pattern is already filled; but would taking the Templar talent and then exchanging it for another at fighter level 15 be in line with the rules, or would that be “gaming” the system?
5. Had an idea for grit points - spend two points (or 3 or 4 or 5, whatever seems balanced) to gain the use of a single feat for a longer duration than 1 round; 1 minute, maybe? Like an Extend metamagic? Trades versatility later for more duration now, without pushing the action economy boundaries with multiple feats simultaneously.
1. Straight +2 bonus.
2. I'm not seeing where the barbarian descriptions says anything like that?3. You can't get Vital Strike twice, so a barbarian 1/fighter 6 doesn't gain it again. Also, because it's a specific bonus feat and not an optional one, you can't retrain it. So you gain no additional benefit.
4. It should be fine. Game play is already crazy at 16th+ level; the Intro notes that PCs are expected to be functionally equivalent to demigods at that point.
5. That seems very reasonable, but we'd have to work out the economy for it.
Kirth,
I may have been misinterpreting the following text in the Totem Spoiler:
I cannot find any text in the Ranger document to suggest that the terrain skills give bonus ranks, which made me think that the text was referring to the competence bonuses. And now that I have re-read it for the fifth time, it occurs to me that it may mean the two skills associated with the totem for the barbarian, and have nothing to do with the favored terrain.
And now that I have re-read it for the fifth time, it occurs to me that it may mean the two skills associated with the totem for the barbarian, and have nothing to do with the favored terrain.
Yes, exactly that. That's why they're specifically spelled out as "totem skills" and not "terrain skills" or something.