On page 248 in the monk sutras section, Sacred Fist says that monk levels provide full synergy for qualifying for advanced sutras at the end of the third bullet.
On page 248 in the monk sutras section, Sacred Fist says that monk levels provide full synergy for qualifying for advanced sutras at the end of the third bullet.
Oops! I'll correct that typo in the master documents. Thanks!
if you ever hard print this ruleset, i'd like a copy.
I'd like 4.
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Is everyone playing Kirthfinder now? I notice the ol' Fighter thread has gone dead. . . .
I've been referencing the online Google docs for a while now, and kept wondering why it was never updated--this is what I get for not checking these messageboards in ages. Could I get a copy of the pdf?
wynterknight at hotmail.com
Thanks so much! I'm crazy excited to see the updates.
PDF sent to wynterknight, FPDragoon, Catfan, and 70s Bloke.
Any other requests: next mailing in ~ 1 month.
Well, sign me up for a copy next month then!
I'm thrilled to introduce it to my gaming group.
I've been looking over the online Google docs for awhile myself and really love a lot of the ideas I'm seeing. Would I be able to get a copy of the pdf as well in the next mailing run?
Thanks!
Ch. 6, pg. 27, P. 2: The cost and characteristics of exotic hide armors are handled by assuming the armor is magical (+1 bonus per AC above 2 for light armors, above [+4] for medium armors, and above 7 for heavy armors).
Thanks, TOZ!
Couple of thoughts:
Concentration skill: I don't like it. It's complicated and has too many exceptions in usage.
I use ranks as caster level. I use whole skill bonus for not loosing a spell and dispelling (and dispelling DC, why is there that unknown DC thing? If you are the GM you know what NPCs Concentration modifier is). I use only ranks and skill focus for beating SR (should class skill bonus be included here? is this an oversight?). Most of classes with spells or similar things have bonus ranks in Concentration. Except ranger. And rogue uses different skill for different skill tricks as Concentration.
And I don't like it being based of Charisma. I know that you wanted spellcasters to suffer from a bit of MAD, but that's the one thing I don't like what you've done with attributes. Now, every full spellcaster has to be charismatic, since it's more important to have DCs and Concentration mod than extra spells. No more wise clerics, and socially inept wizards, now every full caster is a social monster.
Rage: its pain it the ass to calculate, cause of uneven bonus and uneven starting scores. You have to have two sheets if you have rage. I was thinking of making it something similar to fatigue: you get flat bonus to attacks, damage, AC, checks and DCs. Maybe increased damage if using two handed weapon. Probably bonus hp. And I actually liked the previous version where the damage didn't come all at once after ending the rage.
And I also liked having bardic music being separate to spells. While agree it's more streamlined, it was simpler to simply look at the effects (which have a finite list) than looking through a million books that contain spells. I do agree with simplifying the list as you have done in the first edit.
That said, this is great work, and my next campaign will be run in Kirthfinder.
Still wading through the file and overall I like most of it.
I really like the flexible nature of the rules: for example:
Want to play a half dragon? Take the entire racial Dragonborn class first and then level in your first 'real' class
Want to play a dragon disciple? Take draconic bloodline sorcerer levels, interspersed with racial Dragonborn levels.
It all seems so... logical. And, because of these rule interactions, you could as well play a 'demon' disciple or 'angel' disciple.
One remark though. Is Kithfinder an intended nerf to different Gish-type characters? As these kind of characters (for example: fighter with eldritch knight / wizard) seem to lose a whole deal of power compared to their original Pathfinder (or 3.5E) versions.
Well as a long time fan, even if the next PDF mailout is another month away:
oceanshieldwolf at the gmail.com place.
Is there not a way for you guys to have the PDF hosted somewhere so folk can just download it? (Sorry if I've missed some important housekeeping note that explains the whys and wherefores...)
Is there not a way for you guys to have the PDF hosted somewhere so folk can just download it? (Sorry if I've missed some important housekeeping note that explains the whys and wherefores...)
The reason is that there's a lot of closed content in the rules, because they're our personal houserules. When TOZ hosted the Alpha version, it was all over Scribdb within days. I really don't want Hasbro or Paizo or anyone else thinking I'm trying to bypass their copyrights -- I am most definitely NOT. So these rules are NOT intended for mass distribution, uploading, or anything on a scale beyond "hey, some guys I know on Paizo have these houserules that seem like they might be good... do you want to try them out?"
As these kind of characters (for example: fighter with eldritch knight / wizard) seem to lose a whole deal of power compared to their original Pathfinder (or 3.5E) versions.
Nothing like that was intended, certainly -- the idea of having fighter/wizard (for example) instead of a base class was that you could mix-and-match proportions to taste. If you want to replicate the old Duskblade, that's the way to go. If you want a Pathfinder Magus, try battle sorcerer instead.
P.S. If there's a specific Pathfinder "build" you're looking to replicate, post it in a spoiler and I'll see if I can't match it or better using Kirthfinder!
Concentration skill: I don't like it. It's complicated and has too many exceptions in usage.
I agree. Unfortunately, the alternatives I tried involved even more exceptions. That doesn't mean there isn't a better solution; just that I haven't found one yet. If anyone has one, please post it!
And I don't like it being based of Charisma. I know that you wanted spellcasters to suffer from a bit of MAD, but that's the one thing I don't like what you've done with attributes. Now, every full spellcaster has to be charismatic, since it's more important to have DCs and Concentration mod than extra spells.
For a specific playstyle, that's true. However, Andostre's wizard Agun (a dwarf with Cha 7) was an all-star PC -- he just hung back and used buffs and no-save spells to render the rest of the party's work easy.
Rage: its pain it the ass to calculate, cause of uneven bonus and uneven starting scores.
I agree. I've thought about amendments, too, but I like the granularity of +1 to an attribute instead of, effectively, +2 that a +1 flat bonus provides.
And I also liked having bardic music being separate to spells. While agree it's more streamlined, it was simpler to simply look at the effects (which have a finite list) than looking through a million books that contain spells. I do agree with simplifying the list as you have done in the first edit.
What I did is make a table of the most common spells that people would want to use as inspirations, and which source book ones they duplicate. It saves you having to look through so many sources, but takes up one page instead of like 10.
That said, this is great work, and my next campaign will be run in Kirthfinder.
Awesome! Please let us know how it goes -- playtest reports are worth their weight in palladium!
I'd love a copy of the pdf! Sounds awesome!
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And I don't like it being based of Charisma. I know that you wanted spellcasters to suffer from a bit of MAD, but that's the one thing I don't like what you've done with attributes. Now, every full spellcaster has to be charismatic, since it's more important to have DCs and Concentration mod than extra spells.For a specific playstyle, that's true. However, Andostre's wizard Agun (a dwarf with Cha 7) was an all-star PC -- he just hung back and used buffs and no-save spells to render the rest of the party's work easy.
Good times, good times.
Although his greatest moment was when I scored a natural 20 to have him throw a thunderstone into that undead bat's face. No fancy min-maxing with that move.
Although his greatest moment was when I scored a natural 20 to have him throw a thunderstone into that undead bat's face. No fancy min-maxing with that move.
That was awesome!
Of course, from a sadistic DM standpoint, his greatest moment was when he decided that his leg was actually a crocodile that was eating the rest of him. No offense, but I still chuckle over that one.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm glad I'm dead! You people were crazy.
HE PUT THAT TOOTH IN HIS HEAD!!!!!
Concentration skill: I don't like it. It's complicated and has too many exceptions in usage.I agree. Unfortunately, the alternatives I tried involved even more exceptions. That doesn't mean there isn't a better solution; just that I haven't found one yet. If anyone has one, please post it!
Well, i spent about a week contemplating this and haven't worked out anything except "back to way it was". I'm gonna try this version and see if what the players say. I'm gonna give the ranger Concentration as a bonus but remove some others (Planar Sense and Knowledge planes are thematically inappropriate for my campaign, and I'm gonna remove Stealth, because it hurts him the least. I think you went a bit overboard with bonus skills for ranger). Rogue could get an or/or - Concentration or specified skill, but no free Conc.
And I don't like it being based of Charisma. I know that you wanted spellcasters to suffer from a bit of MAD, but that's the one thing I don't like what you've done with attributes. Now, every full spellcaster has to be charismatic, since it's more important to have DCs and Concentration mod than extra spells.For a specific playstyle, that's true. However, Andostre's wizard Agun (a dwarf with Cha 7) was an all-star PC -- he just hung back and used buffs and no-save spells to render the rest of the party's work easy.
I agree it's mainly a problem with my group. We all like to play Cha-based spotlight prostitutes. But usually when running a character with low Charisma people tend to back up a bit. And now that I think about it, control freak wizards ARE played with extreme force of will.
Rage: its pain it the ass to calculate, cause of uneven bonus and uneven starting scores.I agree. I've thought about amendments, too, but I like the granularity of +1 to an attribute instead of, effectively, +2 that a +1 flat bonus provides.
Yes, but half the time they don't mean anything. Or people will just screw with point buy to get the maximum out of it. I'm probably gonna go with the flat-bonus-every-4lvl version , if not for the players, than at least for the NPCs.
And I also liked having bardic music being separate to spells. While agree it's more streamlined, it was simpler to simply look at the effects (which have a finite list) than looking through a million books that contain spells. I do agree with simplifying the list as you have done in the first edit.What I did is make a table of the most common spells that people would want to use as inspirations, and which source book ones they duplicate. It saves you having to look through so many sources, but takes up one page instead of like 10.
Table, please?
That said, this is great work, and my next campaign will be run in Kirthfinder.Awesome! Please let us know how it goes -- playtest reports are worth their weight in palladium!
Unfortunately, nothing before Christmas. I have my Horde campaign to finish, and people didn't want to playtest on 12th-13th lvl. I will use it to playtest tactical movement/preemptive actions, and induce battle fatigue at certain dungeon points. For the campaign, they will probably be starting 3rd lvl, and gaining 4th as soon as system mastery is established (skills and preemptive actions mostly). Of the bigger rules, I won't be using extended spellcasting and battle fatigue will be used only in certain places. I can also give a list of minor things I changed (either here or PM). And when Hellfire Knight (alternate paladin) is finished, is it ok I post it here?
And when Hellfire Knight (alternate paladin) is finished, is it ok I post it here?
Please do! Just please spoiler it so that it doesn't dominate an entire page.
P.S. If there's a specific Pathfinder "build" you're looking to replicate, post it in a spoiler and I'll see if I can't match it or better using Kirthfinder!
Don't mind if I do.
Dragon Gish
My current pathfinder character is a human crossblooded Sorcerer/dragon disciple (specialised in natural weapon melee combat, spells mainly used for blasting now and then or buffing to get his accuracy up to almost fighter levels). He uses eldritch heritage to get additional stat boosts (infernal, abbyssal bloodline). Yes he is quite the bloodline monster.
Pathfinder: Sor 12, disciple 8: nets you BAB 12, caster level 18 (20 with trait), lvl 9 spells, lvl 20 bloodline
Kithfinder: Dragon disciple does not exist in kithfinder (or I am blind; also entirely possible :p) so I 'solved' this by taking dragonborn levels (all 4) interspersed with my sorcerer levels. This is already a houserule in your houserulesystem since dragonborn is a race and thus must be taken at 1st level. In addition I don't really know what to do with the standard racial dragonborn bonuses since I already have human racial modifiers. (INFO: does the racial strength +8 from 4 dragonborn levels Strength of Semuana stack with the +2 racial bonus from lvl3 Draconic Heritage?)
Anyway: Dragonborn 4, Sorcerer 16: BAB 8 (compensated partly with higher strength), caster level 20 (maxed concentration skill), lvl 8 spells, lvl 20 bloodline (with one feat). This looks more or less the same except you lose 2 'spell-advancing' levels and need to use a feat to get a full bloodline. In addition there is some overlap with natural attacks and wings.
Eldritch Gish (the standard wizard gish)
PF/3.5E mashup: Wizard 5, eldritch knight 10, abjurant champion 5: BAB 17, caster level 19 (20 with trait or feat),lvl 9 spells (full casting)
Kithfinder: Two extreme builds
1: Wiz 1 Fighter (spelsword/eldritch knight) 19: BAB 19, caster level 20, lvl 10 spells (Loses a lot in the spell department)
2: Wiz 19 Fighter (spelsword/eldritch knight) 1: BAB 10; caster level 20, lvl9 spells (Loses a lot in the BAB department)
A way in between nets you abilities between the two (both BAB as spells)
TLDR: The dragon disciple (if houseruled a bit) would be more or less equal to a pathfinder one. The eldritch knight however, I find difficult to replicate.
You'd probably want to go with something like 6 wizard/14 fighter.
As an aside, the above eldritch knight would be significantly better as a combatant than your pathfinder version. The fighter class in Kirthfinder is frightening, just looking at its leveling table is crazy.
Edit: If you want, there are better sorcerer classes to use to emulate a dragon disciple I believe. One has 3/4 base attack and full spell progression with some caveats (fewer spells I believe).
Jess, just saw it in the other thread. From there:
I'm currently in the process of cutting page count (my Lulu hard copy ran to something like 640 pages and looks like a college textbook), and cleaning up some lingering inconsistencies. When it's presentable, I'll be very happy to send you a copy. Do you prefer collated or separate chapters? .docx or .pdf format?
Pathfinder: Sor 12, disciple 8: nets you BAB 12, caster level 18 (20 with trait), lvl 9 spells, lvl 20 bloodline
Kirthfinder (Direct Approach): Battle sorcerer (draconic bloodline) 20: nets you BAB +15, CL 20th, lvl 9 spells (capacity 20th) with a few less known and 1 less per level per day. Use the bloodline feats to pick up stuff like Blind-Fighting, which will give you access to blindsense and so on that the PF dragon disciple gets.
Kirthfinder (Alternative Approach): Fighter 4/Sorcerer 16 provides BAB +12, CL 20th, lvl 9 spells (capacity 18th), with more sorcerer class goodies.
Neither one involves dragonborn levels, so you can stay human.
PF/3.5E mashup: Wizard 5, eldritch knight 10, abjurant champion 5: BAB 17, caster level 19 (20 with trait or feat),lvl 9 spells (full casting)
This fails to meet the prerequisites for eldritch knight (proficiency with all martial weapons), so it's an illegal build. You'd need Ftr 1/Wiz 5/EldKt 9/AbjCh 5, for Attack +17/+12/+7/+2, CL 18th, 9th level spells (capacity 18th).
Kirthfinder: Fighter 6/Wizard 14, Attack +13/+13/+8/+8, CL 20th, 9th level spells (capacity 17th). Despite the modest hit to BAB, you're actually better off in combat overall due to improved iteratives and actual fighter class features. Grab Arcane Boost as one of your fighter bonus feats for a lot of AbjCh stuff. Abjurer wizard works great for this build.
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Jess, just saw it in the other thread. From there:
I'm currently in the process of cutting page count (my Lulu hard copy ran to something like 640 pages and looks like a college textbook), and cleaning up some lingering inconsistencies. When it's presentable, I'll be very happy to send you a copy. Do you prefer collated or separate chapters? .docx or .pdf format?
Probably should be .docx. I fiddle with things. :D
@Jess - Docs sent!
I'd love a copy of this as well. We had a blast with the original, googledoc rules. Interested to see what changed!
Flyingskybison at gmail . com
So what is the best method for getting a deadtree version of this, Kinkos?
Hey TOZ - I think I got missed - can you send me a copy?
And received! Thanks TOZ, and thank you Kirth and all your contributors and playtesters.
I really love some of the ideas included here (and I've been using Kirth's Streetwise idea for ages, both in D&D and Star Wars d20). I'd love an updated PDF if one's available. :)
Kirth or anyone else, what and where is 'Arcane Boost'?
Well, thanks for the PDF. :)
Two queries:
Why are giants (which I assume stay as a subtype of humanoids) listed under both Survival and Know: Lore when attempting to identify creatures? Constructs and vermin are both missing from any of the lists, so I'd put constructs under Lore, vermin under Survival and maybe have giants under Warfare.
Where is the Intelligence-boosting feat? You have Moral and Social Training for Wis and Cha, but nothing for Int. (I assume that the mental feats require three times the feat tax in order to boost the martial classes.)
I may be mis-reading this, but you 1) can't move without losing Stance, but 2) Evade Reach, a Stance, allows you to reduce the effect of the Reach of an opponent when moving about.
Where is the Intelligence-boosting feat? You have Moral and Social Training for Wis and Cha, but nothing for Int. (I assume that the mental feats require three times the feat tax in order to boost the martial classes.)
This was asked a page or two back. An Intelligence-boosting feat would be granting extra skill points, which is the job of the Open Minded feat. And simply replacing Open Minded with an Intelligence-boosting feat wouldn't be the best fix.
I may be mis-reading this, but you 1) can't move without losing Stance, but 2) Evade Reach, a Stance, allows you to reduce the effect of the Reach of an opponent when moving about.
No, you can't move without losing the stance, but there'll be stances that have exceptions. Evade Reach says if you move, you'll lose almost all its effects. Wind Stance says you have to move to use it, so moving doesn't make you lose it. For everything else, there's the advanced Fighter talent Mobile Stance.
It sounds like there's some more rules updates/errata available. Color me interested. Separated .docx files preferred.
I would love to get a copy of this when it is convenient.
My thanks for your time.
This was asked a page or two back. An Intelligence-boosting feat would be granting extra skill points, which is the job of the Open Minded feat. And simply replacing Open Minded with an Intelligence-boosting feat wouldn't be the best fix.
So how do Int-casters boost their spells per day, DCs, etc? I see the skill points issue, but it seems that no one can simply get any smarter, despite all the other stat-boosting feats.
So how do Int-casters boost their spells per day, DCs, etc? I see the skill points issue, but it seems that no one can simply get any smarter, despite all the other stat-boosting feats.
You can still make a stat-boosting item similar to Headband of Intellect as described in the Making Custom Magic Items section. The bonuses between that and an Intelligence-boosting feat would be the same and wouldn't stack anyways. For the extra numen cost of adding an Intelligence boost on an item, generalist Wizards use up half the normal numen cost on magic items they craft for themselves. And anyone with a Bonded Weapon could trade in the enhancement bonuses for extra numen.