The "Snake, Venemous" document confuses my table. The King Cobra entry lists Deadly Venom as a feat it has. We can't find that anywhere, but we can find a "Venom, Virulent" in the Feats document, so we assume it's something that got changed and missed between versions. I proceed to go through the "Snake, Venemous" document to change all entries of "Deadly Venom" to "Virulent Venom." I scroll down to the Emperor Cobra entry and see it already has Virulent Venom as a feat; but then under the Conversion Notes for the Emperor Cobra, it has "deadly venom" as a "special attack."
Bard's Inspiration has its rounds per day scale off of either Cha or Int depending on whether the Bard's Tradition is a Minstrel or a Skald respectively, but the DC is strictly Cha-based regardless of Tradition. I find that weird. I'll be editing that on my copy.
I believe this is because all spell DCs key off of CHA in general, unless the character has a feat or feature to alter it. I'd allow a character with the relevant DC-changing feat for spells to swap the stat here as well.
Thank you for pointing that out. I finally noticed that Bardic Lore: Arcane Bond directly mentions that.
Bard's Inspiration has its rounds per day scale off of either Cha or Int depending on whether the Bard's Tradition is a Minstrel or a Skald respectively, but the DC is strictly Cha-based regardless of Tradition. I find that weird. I'll be editing that on my copy.
In 3.5, arcane casters could learn spells not on their spell lists, but required roleplay, finding the spells and specially studying them. Strangely, that fact seems to always be missed or forgotten.
There's still the Expanded Arcana feat and Cross-Class Spell metamagic.
You're correct about Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard. From my understanding, it's because prepared divine casters from prior editions didn't have a limit on spells known. 3.5 Clerics and Druids got nuts with each splatbook release. Here in this version of Kirthfinder, a caster is either spontaneous, prepared with a specified class list, or prepared with a spellbook that costs numen to expand past the default size.
On the topic of spell lists: I see that some classes (Druid, Cleric) list them explicitly, while others (Ranger, Wizard, Sorcerer), don't.
For Wizard and Archivist I assume they can just transcribe any spell of appropriate type that's not explicitly restricted, but what about others? Do I just assume that i.e. the Ranger's spell list is "any spell which in its source book is listed as a Ranger spell, rebuilt with the spell building system"?
In that case, do the classes with explicit spell lists just have them as a way to mark the spells that don't fall under a specific domain, making the above reasoning universal?
I've been using the Ranger spell list from Kirthfinder circa 2014.
cut content:
Add the following spells to the core ranger’s spell list; non-core sources (noted as superscripts) are cited in Chapter 1. You also have access to all of the Nomad psionic discipline powers from the d20 System Reference Document, as if they were spells of the appropriate level, and you can learn certain martial maneuvers from the Tome of Battle as if they were spells of the same level, choosing from the following disciplines: Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and Desert Wind (the latter only if you have deserts as a favored terrain).
1st Level Spells: Accelerated movement CAd, animate rope, arrow mind CAd, Artemis’ blessing RRO, aspect of the wolf SC, blades of fire SC, blissful sleep BEM3, bloodhound CAd, branch to branch CAd, burning brand BHM, camouflage CD, cure light wounds, darkvision, delay disease ARG, detect shapechangers RR2, disguise self, ease of breath FB, easy trail CAd, exacting shot CAd, expeditious retreat, faerie fire, feather fall, guided shot CAd, hawkeye CAd, healing lorecall CAd, hunter’s mercy MF, instant search CAd, lay of the land PnH, lightfoot MH, locate city RD, low-light vision MF, magic weapon, obliterate tracks WotC, precipitation APM, quickswim SW, rankletaste WotC, recent occupant BEM3, resist planar alignment PnH, rogue’s stab BEM3, silvered weapon Dr340, sleep, sniper’s shot CAd, stalking brand MF, surefoot SC, swift expeditious retreat CAd, tern’s persistance CAd, travelers’ mount CD, vigilant slumber CM, webfoot SW.
2nd Level Spells: Alter self, balancing lorecall CAd, beast shape I, blight enemy BHM, blood biography APG, blur, bull’s strength, clairaudience/clairvoyance, cure moderate wounds, curse of arrow attraction PHII, detect evil, divine favor, easy climb CAd, flame blade, follow aura APG, freedom of breath SSt, Gaean repast RRO, hunter’s eye PHII, hunter’s stalk RR, hunter’s moon RR2, hydrate SSt, invisibility, lesser restoration, Liliandel’s flurry RR, linked perception PHII, listening lorecall CAd, living prints MF, locate object, mass hide from animals AEST, nature’s favor CAd, near horizon CM, nondetection, scent CD, see invisibility, shield of faith, surefooted stride WotC, swift haste CAd, water breathing, whispering wind.
3rd Level Spells: Air walk, animal spy RR, avoid planar effects MP, bane of the forge RR2, beast shape II, blade storm CAd, blink, cure serious wounds, detect favored enemy CD, dimension door, dispel magic, displacement, find the gap DN, fire trap, forsestfold CD, glyph of warding, instant enemy APG, keen edge, locate creature, greater magic weapon, heal animal companion WotC, magic vestment, mark of the hunter CD, mass feather step APG, Tanil’s spectral archers RR2, wake trailing SW, wraithstrike.
4th Level Spells: Animal growth, arrow storm CAd, attune form MP, baleful polymorph, charm monster, cure critical wounds, bane bow CD, beast shape III, elemental body I, foebane CAd, detect scrying, dimensional anchor, dismissal, greater invisibility, hydra’s blood RRO, implacable pursuer CD, lesser aura of cold FB, mass camouflage CD, mass longstrider PHII, mass surefooted stride WotC, perinarch PnH, planar adaptation APG, plane shift, restoration, ricochet RR2, scrying, secret chest, sending, spike stones, stoneskin, swift lion’s charge MH, Tanil’s purging RR, telepathic bond, true seeing.
5th Level Spells: beast shape IV, control winds, elemental body II, greater dispel magic, greater glyph of warding, mass bear’s endurance, mass bull’s strength, mass cat’s grace, mass cure light wounds, mass owl’s wisdom, mass planar adaptation APG, stone tell, teleport, transport via plants, wall of thorns.
A player of mine pointed out a problem and I had to houserule it. The Incarnate Grave Mystery's Grave Sight revelation grants Detect Undead as a continuous ability. Detect Undead is built with Tenuous Spell such that the user could be stunned for a round. A continuous ability that can stun the user sounds like a death wish. My quick fix is to remove Detect Undead and have Grave Sight's Lifesense work on both the living and the undead.
Was having a continuous ability that self-stuns in the face of a high-HD undead intentional? I'm guessing no, but I'm making assumptions on the design philosophy and I'd like to be certain.
My condolences. I wish you good luck in getting your life back in order.
Is there a minimum Caster Level for spells based on their Spell Level? I remember that being a thing in 3.5 and PF1e, but the only things I see in Kirthfinder that have a restriction with Spell Level are Spell Capacity and Spellcasting Attribute. Is the older restriction assumed to be carried over, or is cheesing the Caster Level for cheaper magic items treated as a non-issue because Dispel Magic is sitting at the ready like an attack dog (a la using Ritual Spell to make magic items cheaper)?
Thank you for the responses, they help immensely, especially that "weird corner-case threatened to wreck the game" guideline. Now to come up with less ambiguous naming for attribute score increases. Maybe Owner for one and Minion for the other.
6. Does the Expanded Arcana feat work with Ki Powers and Skill Tricks? Between being built off of the same Spell Capacity table, and having their own mechanics differences from normal spellcasting, I can see this being ruled either way.
When placed into an item, an amplified spell functions at the activator’s caster level, rather than at the item’s. In addition, the save DC (if applicable) is calculated using the activator’s Charisma modifier.
Serenity wrote:
you may use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier when calculating saving throw DCs of your spells and extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities that rely on Charisma.
3. Can Amplify Spell and Serenity work together? It would make sense, but how they're written makes me feel like I'm making an assumption.
Soulknife wrote:
Mind Blade (Su): any weapon-specific feats (e.g., Weapon Specialization) that apply to your mind blade in one form also apply to the mind blade in all other forms.
4. Does this include Proficiency level gained via class or racial properties? I'm not certain whether Proficiencies count as feats themselves, or if they count as properties that the actual Proficiency feats bestow upon the character.
2. Whips seem to be missing the "In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes)." clause it has in Pathfinder. Is this intentional?
Thank you for your responses, they help quite a bit. I figured out the Grimoire and Table of Contents parts in the meantime.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Tahlreth wrote:
Ranger.docx wrote:
Spellcasting: ...You must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain your daily allotment of spells. You may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that you can cast spells of that level, but you must choose which spells to prepare during your daily meditation.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I should move the class list thing into one of the bullets, and/or clarify that it means the ranger versions of those spells (since rangers no longer have a specific list).
What spell list does Ranger use? I was under the assumption this list was the one being referred to.
I had a list in an earlier draft, got rid of it, and now I'm kind of torn.
An earlier draft, you say? Guess I'll use the 2014 spell list for now.
7. Brass dragon and Steel dragon in the Sorcerer's Draconic Bloodlines table refer to the Blast Spell feat, which seems to have been subsumed into the Channel Spell feat.
Spellcasting: ...You must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain your daily allotment of spells. You may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that you can cast spells of that level, but you must choose which spells to prepare during your daily meditation.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I should move the class list thing into one of the bullets, and/or clarify that it means the ranger versions of those spells (since rangers no longer have a specific list).
6. What spell list does Ranger use? I was under the assumption this list was the one being referred to.
1. Under Designing Custom Items: Spell Effects, what kind of action does it take to use a Command Word Activated item? The description doesn't say, and the best I can find in the Combat chapter is phrases and commands each counting as Free Actions. My best guess is there's a separation between activating and directing the spell effect: Free Action to activate the magic item, default Partial Action to direct the spell effect.
Soulknife wrote:
Mind Blade (Su): ...You can use feats in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon; any weapon-specific feats (e.g., Weapon Specialization) that apply to your mind blade in one form also apply to the mind blade in all other forms.
2. Does this allow weapon-specific feats to apply to a form that normally wouldn't qualify (e.g., Crushing Blow feat with a greatsword form)?
Racial Spell-Like Abilities wrote:
Theurgy and Bonus Spells: When racial spell-like abilities are given up in favor of spellcasting synergy (as described for each race in Chapter 2), the racial spell-like abilities listed can be used in place of the standard bonus feats for the primary casting progression.
3. Is this supposed to say "in place of the standard bonus spells"?
4. Is the Spells Grimoire acting up for anyone else? It'll work if I download it, but it's refusing to load within Google Drive.
5. How do you make the table of contents links in the beginning of the Feats chapter, and can this be used to link to specific sections of other documents?
I would appreciate help on any of these. Thank you.
Under Designing Custom Items: Spell Effects, what kind of action does it take to use a Command Word Activated item? The description doesn't say, and the best I can find in the Combat chapter is phrases and commands each counting as Free Actions. My best guess is there's a separation between activating and directing the spell effect: Free Action to activate the magic item, a Partial Action to direct the spell effect, Swift Action to direct if the spell effect is Quickened.
Whenever a Monk gives up their ki power progression in exchange for theurgy towards another class' spellcasting progression, do they retain the ability to meditate mid-day to regain spell levels of spell slots, or do they give that up in the process?
Ranger Mage is a tad confusing. Since it says "Add all sorcerer/wizard spells of the appropriate levels to your class spells list. You also gain the following multiclassing benefits:" before the bullet points, but has the last bullet point say "If you have no levels in any arcane spellcasting class, you instead gain a suite of racial spell-like abilities," does the last bullet point count against only the other bullet points?
Can a Mind Blade take the form of an Unarmed Attack? What would that even look like, a momentary visual manifestation on whatever body part is used in the attack roll, or would the Soulknife have a full body glow like they're a Diablo 3 Archon?
Is there any way to make a Soulknife have access to the Monk's list of Ki Powers? The only opening I can find is to use Ranger lore to commit a hop-scotch violation.
That's a great idea!
Wait, so performing hop-scotch for numerical bonuses isn't allowed, but performing hop-scotch for non-numerical benefits is legal? Neat.
Is there any way to make a Soulknife have access to the Monk's list of Ki Powers? The only opening I can find is to use Ranger lore to commit a hop-scotch violation.
I'd like to be clever or graceful as I ask the inevitable question, it feels appropriate to do so. I simply don't think I can. I've agonized over it ever since I've read the contents of Kirthfinder, as linked to in the very first post, several months ago. I cannot wait any longer for that creative spark of genius. The pressure to perform built up to the point, now, where I realized that if I didn't act on it, soon I wouldn't be able to express it at all, my desire to possess having reduced me to a gibbering, confusing shell of a man. I can feel it coming, closing in on me. I need salvation, peace of mind, desperately, now, before it is too late. Please, I beg of you, will you save me from myself? Will you send me an updated version?
May you find salvation in the email sent.
Firewarrior44 wrote:
I have a question about Type-less penalties, are they a thing? I know bonuses must have a type but i'm not sure if this also extends to penalties as well.
IIRC, all penalties listed in Kirthfinder are typed as well. If I'm wrong, please post the type-less entry.
Alright, it's more like I use the Leadership feat as a guideline for juggling NPC CRs from encounter to encounter. I'm still trying to find the challenge level sweet spot between tedious steamrolling and horrific TPK.
I second giving a free Leadership feat to every major villain. And I like that the 5th ed. DMG provides a good outline for morale saves. I'll be using that for figuring out when the cohorts would run towards their boss. I'd finally have an excuse to nail down rules for chase scenes.
I have to see how hard it is to convert an adventure path, but the "really early" version google gives me is already very interesting to read. You seemed to pay careful attention to correcting some of the problems that bother me most about the base system, so I can't wait to see where you landed at the end of it :-)
Hi guys, love Kirthfinder and was having some problems with new players to either Pathfinder or Kirthfinder itself with filling out the character sheet. I do not know if the character sheet has had an update since I had requested a copy of the rules. To remedy this problem, I took up the mantle to format the excel sheet with automatic calucations , it can be found here in my google drive, and is updated as I need it.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert in excel or its formulas and I update my master copy on my desktop due to personal internal grievances with my PCs screwing with my formulas
My group prefers pencils and paper character sheets too. If I were to use a digital format, it'd be for Fantasy Grounds on Steam. I'm fairly certain the file types for that simulator aren't compatible with Google Drive.
As for Excel formulas, my own personal number crunching (I'm looking at you, Leadership feat.) has taught me
ROUNDDOWN(number or formula,number of decimal places to round to)
and
ROUNDUP(number or formula,number of decimal places to round to)
are your friends.
I was only worried about how weapon proficiency applied to spells when a class feature actually checks for proficiency level, and I think only the Monk has such features. Making a weapon category just for that would've been a formality.
I wasn't aware Orb spells all had splash damage.
For iterative attack spells, I've been using Eldritch Blast premodified with Measured Spell [-1 level] + Quicken Spell [Standard to Swift; +2 levels, -1 synergy]. 1d6 + 1/2 level seemed reasonable for what would be a bloodline-specific weapon.
The grenade stuff is my handiwork. My DM challenged me to make a holy grenade launcher. He didn't think I'd find a way without munchkining.
Firearms could utilize multiple attacks if you add on either Ray Splitting or Quicken Spell [Attack action].
As for firearms utilizing [Strike] feats... Would it be reasonable to take the Eldritch Blast's 'Because it requires an attack roll, you can apply feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and ranged [Strike] feats' clause and apply it to Ray of Frost?
Examples of Mundane Items Built Using Spells wrote:
FIREARMS
Bullet:Ray of frost (0) + Reach Spell (close to medium range; +1 level) + Versatile Evocation (force; +1 level) + Energy Admixture (piercing; +0 levels) = 2nd level spell.
Pistol: As a wand of bullet: 2nd level spell x CL 3rd x 900 (command-activated) x 0.5 (limited ammunition capacity) = 2,700 numen. If you pack multiple clips, use the personal inventory rules in Chapter 6.
Can be fired once per round as a ranged touch (the main draw of firearms in Pathfinder) for 3d6 damage (half piercing, half force). The cost can be lowered by adding some sort of jam/misfire mechanic with contingent-based pricing.
Glock 17: As pistol + Ray Splitting (+1 level) + +1 enhancement bonus to attacks (simulate Masterwork manufacturing standards) = wand of a 3rd level spell that gives you two attacks per round at 4d6 damage each.
Long-range rifle: As pistol + increase the spell level adjustment for Reach Spell.
Higher-velocity/heavier-caliber guns: As pistol + increase caster level.
Scattergun: As pistol + Shape Spell (ray to cone or line).
Ray gun: As pistol + replace the [piercing] damage with [fire] damage.
Holy Hand Grenade:Ray of frost (0) + Cascade Spell (cure light wounds; +2 level) + Planar Channeling (+0 levels) + Reach Spell (touch to medium range; +1 level) + Versatile Evocation (force; +1 level) + Energy Admixture (holy; +1 level) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; holy & positive energy damage portion only; +2 levels) = 7th level spell
Grenade Launcher: 900 numen (command activated; pull trigger) x 7th level spell x CL 13 x 4/5 (4 uses per day) = 65,520 numen
Firearms have been integrated, but I forget what the formula is for ammo magazines.
These house rules are not intended for general use. Indeed, for most groups, the Core rules are far superior in many respects. In creating these house rules, there were several design goals which, if not actually achieved, were at least strived for; any failure to attain them is mine. The major goals, and cautions for use, are summarized below.
Character Building:
Kirthfinder wrote:
Base classes are more versatile, filling a variety of concepts, making prestige classes or “archetypes” less important. Multiclass options (see “Class Synergy Features” below) are intended to allow multiclassing of casters as well as martial characters, in nearly limitless combinations. Finally, the rules are extremely mechanically “crunchy,” geared towards players who especially enjoy the various tasks associated with creating or “leveling up” a character. If your group just wants to roll up characters and play, then these house rules are not for you; sticking with the core Pathfinder game (or some other system) is recommended. Likewise, if you consider multiclassing to be “cheesy,” you will doubtless intensely dislike these house rules.
Class Rebalancing:
Kirthfinder wrote:
Not only in combat (e.g., changing of casting rules), but in terms of narrative power: fighters, rogues, etc. are more versatile, and receive class features enabling them to do more than simply fight and disarm traps. The ranger regains his “schtick” as a tracker, scout, locator, and guide―even across the planes. As long as high-level casters can travel to Heaven at will and stop time, there will never be a total balance, but our hope is that the number of levels of which all classes are playable has been expanded upwards a bit. If you, personally, believe that there is no martial-caster disparity in the core rules, then these house rules are not for you; please delete and/or shred your copy.
Fewer “Timmy” Cards:
Kirthfinder wrote:
As much as possible, obviously good or extremely substandard options are obtained automatically, without needing to decide whether to spend a limited resource (feat, talent, etc.) on a “tax” option or on something interesting but sub-par. That means providing bonus skill ranks (to avoid “skill taxes”) and expanded bundling of skills; selective “beefing up” or “nerfing” of talents and feats, and so on. In addition, many feats scale with skill ranks or base attack bonus, so as to remain useful throughout the character’s career rather than becoming obsolescent at some point.
Nostalgia:
Kirthfinder wrote:
In a number of cases, a seemingly bizarre rules change has been implemented as a “nod” to previous editions, especially 1e AD&D. Overall, those rules were mechanically a mess, but they did provide a certain type of experience that these rules use as a reference.
Player Involvement:
Kirthfinder wrote:
Considerable creative power is intentionally shifted from the hands of the “DM” or “GM” to those of the players. Accordingly, the person running the game is now termed a “referee” instead, in order to focus on this shift in role. Custom races, design of personal magic items, expanded leadership options in these rules all very intentionally contribute to player empowerment. If you believe the “GM” should wield absolute authority and exercise sole creative power, stop reading now and delete/burn/shred your copy of these rules. These rules assume that the referee’s job is to design and run encounters, and to impartially facilitate the rules during play. His or her job is not to railroad the adventure, “fix” the rules by fiat, and so on. This implies a correspondingly high level of responsibility required of the players not to intentionally disrupt play or “break the game.”
Rebalanced Attributes:
Kirthfinder wrote:
Uses have been rebalanced so that there are fewer obvious “dump stats” (particularly Charisma).
Rock-Paper-Scissors:
Kirthfinder wrote:
In many ways, a d20 + modifier task resolution system breaks down very quickly when the disparity of modifiers becomes too great. However, abandoning the core d20 mechanic is beyond the scope of these house rules, so the problem noted above becomes a something of a necessary evil. In order to ameliorate this, some “full stop” options are included in order to nullify part of a numerically overwhelming advantage. For example, at low levels AC can be “jacked up” to the point where a target is essentially impervious to attacks except on a natural 20; however, a number of feats and talents are included that potentially allow an attacker to ignore armor bonuses, insight bonuses, deflection bonuses, etc. This in no way eliminates potential disparities, but it re-introduces an element of risk to investing in any “obviously overpowered” ability or feature.
My personal favorite change is characters are allowed to re-flavor any mechanics/abilities they make use of in order to fit their character concept. Earlier in this thread, either Kirth or TriOmegaZero mentioned a duelist character and a holy warrior character who both used Barbarian Rage for their 'battle focus' or 'divine empowerment.'
A possible problem (if going the spell-based breath weapon route) is the design conflict; using breath weapons are attack actions under Kirthfinder, while casting spells is not.
As a solution, it is recommended to make a base spell for the draconic base [Breath Weapon Spell], so it may be modified accordingly. Such a spell needs an attack action casting time, and has caster level equal to the HD of the dragon*.
* And d10 damage, pretty far range...the spell might end up pretty high.
A base spell with caster level equal to the dragon's HD, d10 damage, and pretty far range? I'm more keen on using a solution similar to what the ruleset already has for players begging to play as a Lich at level 1.
"A level 1 Lich? Sure. I'll allow it, but all the abilities get toned down so that they're appropriate for a level 1 character. *Points them to the Deathwalker Specialist Wizard.*
So in the case of breath weapons, I'd start with finding all the metamagics needed to turn an Eldritch Blast into your ideal breath weapon (at least Quicken Spell [attack action], Magnify Spell, and Reach Spell by my understanding). And either add them to the list of available bonus feats for Draconic bloodline (less likely to disrupt game balance), or somehow work them into Improved/Greater Blast (more likely to disrupt game balance).
On a somewhat related note, after reading through the "What are your favorite things in 5th edition?" thread, I've been pondering the implications of converting all the Reserve feats into cantrips, and then having all cantrips scale to the caster's highest spell level with no cap. Heightening Eldritch Blast would then result in the 'caster level equal to the HD' effect you're looking for.
