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So. When I first heard about PFS OP I was excited to get going and quickly made up a character in order to be all set for a game day two days hence.
I spent way more time thinking up a concept and background than actually looking at the rules, since I figured I was already familiar enough with Pathfinder from long experience with all the various versions of D&D that came before it.
Unfortunately it hasn't taken long to see how I made many 'mistakes' in statting my Cavalier.
1. I didn't make a gnome or halfling. My Half-Orc feels mighty awkward at the Order meetings- he's the only Cavalier in living memory that stands taller than 4 feet zero inches. Not to mention, Pathfinder missions where you actually CAN ride a horse (and are not escorting stupid Shadow Lodge goblins that freak at the scent of one) only come once every other blue moon.
2. I didn't pick an archetype that ditches Tactician for something actually useful. First of all I didn't immediately realize Tactician only works on the feat you picked at 1st level (lame). Second of all I figured part of what would differentiate my PC from a fighter is the party 'buffs'. I gave serious thought to the Strategist archetype, but I can't get past its achilles heel: Teamwork Feats suck fierce. My 1st level TWF is Precise Strike... which 50% of the time I kick it, the other players at the table refuse to cooperate to make use of. And I can't find a ANY other TWF that I'd even consider worth paying a feat for, even if it were to work without being given out by tactician. I wouldn't even take the majority of them if they simply cost a skill point instead- they're that terrible.
3. I can't see an 11th level Cavalier being ready to retire from the Pathfinders. Unless you want to play a collection of mounted combat chain feats, you have to multiclass to do anything useful. And you have very few incentives to NOT multiclass. 3rd level cavalier class abilty? Yawn. 4th level? lame, and it's nerfed anyway in OP. 5th level? Maybe SOMETIMES useful. Gotta get to 6th level to get anything good, and all that is.. is a bonus feat. Want to be good at something BESIDES a mounted charge? Cavalier levels 3-5 aren't going to help any. The once incentive there IS to stay 'pure' is Challenge- which is just weaker version of Smite. Not losing much if you decide to miss out on that.
I took power attack at 1st level, reasoning that it'd be mighty useful whether mounted or dismounted, and guessed that in a campaign format where a GM can't tailor the adventures to suit the PCs, I shouldn't go all in on the mounted combat chain. (and if you don't take Mounted combat to Spirited Charge, you shouldn't bother at all)
I'm looking at feats like Persuasive and Strong Presence- not only do they let me get away with beng a 'face' character at low levels, they combo nicely with the Order of the Cockatrice 'Braggart' ability. Unfortunately, if I want to remain relevant as a face at higher levels I need to get UMD (and buy lots of scrolls/wands) or multiclass into a casting class.
If I instead go with mounted combat feats, I'm basically the same thing as the NPC Warrior class (Fighter- but without feats) 99% of the time when horses aren't available. But yay, that 1% of the time I can rock socks. Just so long as I don't botch the rare opportunity on a bad charge to-hit roll...
One thing I'm looking at is multiclassing into Rogue with the Thug archetype. It takes the Braggart combo to a new level, and sets me up with Sneak Attack for an eventual buy of Shatter Defenses (not to mention comboing with Precise Strike should that ever actually come into use). I'd have the skill points for UMD but I worry that despite some tricksy shenanigans.. ultimately as a Rogue multiclass I'm still just a Warrior, but now with worse BAB and HP.
Another is multiclassing into Oracle. Or rather I should say BECOMING an oracle who's barely multiclassed into cavalier for the mount (and Horse Master feat at 7th level). But it's purely an academic evaluation.. it doesn't jive with what I wanted to originally do nor does it fit in with the character story (not that it should necessarily stop me, it just feels slightly dirty)
I was made to make another brand new PC to partake in the First Steps adventure path, and as of this moment my Sorcerer is only 3 XP behind my Cavalier. It saddens me but I'm thinking of just prematurely retiring my poor half-orkish would-be-knight early. It seems that there's no current way to effectively play such a character with what's currently available in OP.. and in the event a resource that WOULD fix my woes become approved for OP, if I keep playing from now till then I'll not be in a position to benefit from it.. unless they legalize retroactive rebuilds to take advantage of the new stuff.. which I don't see happening.
So anyway. If you're still with me after listening to my woes I appreciate your endurance and sympathy. If you have any advice or suggestions I'd certainly love to accept them.
I sympathize with you. I agree that PFS modules are fairly hostile towards mounts (and other animal companions that can't climb ladders, etc.), and I think the cavalier class is a little "meh" to begin with (there are some pretty slim pickings for teamwork feats, all right). Sad, but true.
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I sympathize. As a long time organized play participant, I have learned that mounted combat is a poor option. Even for small creatures, I would only go the mounted archery route. (And I wouldn't recommend that because if your mount gets nuked, you are not going to be effective for the remainder of the module).
I would recommend setting aside your cavalier in hopes that something comes along which would let you adjust the character to better fit your ideals. You could also keep an eye open for modules (or possibly a plot arc) which was more open to large mounts and use your sorcerer in the other modules.
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The Cavalier class relies on the mount for part of it's power, so obviously with so many scenarios inside it's not ideal, however I still feel it's viable. (I have a cavalier I'll play sometime).
Let's also be honest, most PFS scenarios are not difficult at all. It's not like you need to optimize to have a good time.
Also, in my experience, about 25-50% of scenarios are outside. My last 3 scenarios were outside, so maybe that's skewing my perceptions a bit, but it's not as bad as 1%.
Anyway, if you're not enjoying yourself, sure make another character, you're only 1st level anyway.
My hats off for even trying a medium sized cavalier in PFS.
That said there is something for fighting with your mount while dismounted. And I'm not exactly sure on the rulings here, but I pass teamwork feats to my mount all the time. It is an ally, after all.
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As other have said before - mounted players often have a problem in PFS. Many scenarios are ill suited for them.
It is unreasonable to assume all future scenarios will be written in a way that is friendly for the Cavalier. So are there any constructive options apart of retirement?
I would suggest to keep the Cavalier and ask the GM / Regional Coordinator ahead of each scenario about the suitability for a mounted character.
You could even start a thread and ask people to rank on a 1-10 the feasibility for mounted combat. Then stay away from anything rated 5 or lower and play these scenarios with your second character.
Likely not what you want to hear - but that at least keeps the Cavalier alive and functional in a way you envisioned him. After all - Venture Captains should select for adventures suitable candidates - so they wouldn't send you on a Ship (Mermaid - I would rate you as 1 for mounted combat) but rather into some overland adventure.
I hope that keeps one Cavalier alive.
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I knew going in that adventures would not always be mount friendly- that's true in a home campaign as well.
Something I'm wondering about is whether a Cavalier is hopeless without taking mounted combat feats. Sure sure a roleplayer will enjoy what he plays, and I don't like to think of myself as a rollplayer instead..
But there's still a line. Just as one would never recommend a wizard to load up on melee combat feats.. can a Cavalier reasonably get by with no mounted combat feats? :)
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After looking at Cavalier for a while I decided to go with a fighter for my mounted halfling.
I havn't seen many fantasy rpg's that are friendly to mounts, horses just don't go underground well. Odd thing is when I think back to all my favorite fantasy novels, the majority of them take place outside.
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Hello Dessio,
I play regularly with a medium cavalier and a medium paladin with a mount in PFS, and I'll try to refer them to this thread to help you with their specific builds. I know that both of them absolutely love their characters (who are around level 10). They invest a lot into their mounts, including items that would let them fly or shrink in size. They also have a healthy understanding that their mounts probably won't come with them on some adventures. I think the psychotic amount of damage they get to do when they have their mounts makes it worth it for them. Your Tactician ability works on any teamwork feat that you gain as a bonus. There's also a lot of feats that depend less on your party's position, and ultimate combat has introduced a lot more. I really advise you to not give up on your cav, as they are very fun and rewarding to play.
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From what you wrote you might want to check out the Low Templar prestige class out of the Inner Sea World Guide.
Plus, the Boon Companion in the Seeker of Secrets book will give you some breathing room to do some multiclassing while still advancing your mount.
Finally, consider looking at some magic (such as a wand of reduce animal) to keep the mount in the scenario. It can be pricey, but often there is just one part of a scenario that makes the mount un-viable, if you can get past that barrier then you get the full effect of the class.
I was already looking at Horse Master which is a tailor made feat for Cavaliers who are multiclassing/bailing. The Low Templar was an excellent suggestion that I wouldn't have thought of, however. When I first looked at it, I disregarded it as figuring fluffwise they'd always be up at the Worldwound. Having given it another look, it IS a perfect macth for my character concept. He worships Calistria, and he'd be just the sort to offer insincere vows to the church of Iomedae if he thought he'd get ahead by using the good name of the Crusades, especially if he can use his abilities to ensure he never gets orders to report to the front :D
Since I don't yet have UMD I finally got some spare coin after my last adventure to buy a couple potions of Reduce Animal. I've yet to try it but I'm going to attempt to bring the horse along on my next dungeondelve.. not as a mount but as a big kicking, biting fighty animal companion O.o. Potions will be there just in case the horse will need to be carried across some hazard or up a ladder.
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I also have made the mistake of making a medium cavalier. It is incredibly difficult to have my mount around due to the nature of PFS. Also Tactician is hard to use and it doesn't even last that long. I basically have to buy potions/scrolls of reduce animal to take my horse anywhere. And yes, Cavalier's can get buy w/o any mounted feats. I play mine more as a regular tank who has an AC than a mounted combatant. Though the few times when i can mounted charge some poor sap with my lance are fun. But with PFS mods being the way they are, it is a little frustrating to be a cavalier. Not to mention, samurai exist which makes being a cavalier even sadder.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I am currently working on a Cavalier with the using the Standard Bearer and Strategist archetypes. I only plan on advancing him as a Cavalier until 3rd level, skipping the problematic need for a mount. Might take him into Magus from there. I'll let you know how it works out.
In the meantime, remember that the Inquisitor class works well with the Cavalier too.
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I have both a 6th level medium (human) cavalier and a 10th level horse divine bonded paladin.
For the cavalier I made the character understanding that I would only be able to use the mount 25-33% of the time. As such I didn't get any mounted feats. Pathfinder Society isn't the most suited for an outdoor combatant, and is simply the nature of the campaign. As such I use my horse as an additional combatant when I can. I do know that I'll be teaching it the trick "fly" at some point in time and acquiring a way for it to fly, if only temporarily. This will give me more options to use the mount when it can't climb a ladder, climb a cliff, close quarters etc.
As for my teamwork feat? I actually found my CMB teamwork feat to be useful in a few situations. It has allowed me to give a decent bonus to the group for uncommon maneuvers like grapple when fighting a caster, or overrun when trying to get the BBEG. This gives myself (my horse) and my companions a better chance at trying an unconventional tactic especially without the "improved" feat.
For my paladin, I actually find the full round action to bring the mount to me to be a lifesaver. I simply ignore the fact that she's a large mount and bring her to me when the space is available. Again I don't have mounted feats and focus on the personal aspect of the character for feats. This lets her be a great bonus when available, but at the same time I'm still a useful character when she's not there.
In the end PFS is simply a bad place for a true mounted character - this is an aspect of the campaign thematically, and not something I would imagine would be changed. In fact, I'm fairly positive you don't see too many samurai, cavaliers, or (to an extent) paladins in the ranks of the Pathfinders in the first place, just the same as you probably don't see as many druids.
...Are you required to advance your animal companion's size at the listed level?
I.e., could a 7th-level gnome cavalier choose to retain a medium-sized wolf?
I think it works the same as a druid's animal companion:
"Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2."
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With regard to Tactician:
Yeah ... I'm not convinced Teamwork feats are awful, but they aren't as intuitive as I would like. A few suggestions that might help out so long as you are stuck with the class feature.
Tactician plus Escape Route is actually rather nice for some parties. With some careful maneuvering and coordination, the group can move almost wherever they wish without fear of AOOs, you just need some allies acting as 'blockers' in a decidedly Blood Bowl fashion. Remember: if one of your medium sized allies is in melee with a medium sized enemy, five of eight squares the enemy used to threaten now no longer threaten. Slipping into flank has never been so easy.
More difficult to do in PF Society but cool nonetheless, find a friend doing the "reach weapon and combat patrol" or some other combo that emphasizes AOOs and threatening, then add Paired Opportunists. It doesn't look like much, but it really can go a long way.
Otherwise? Best bet is to pick a save that you can share via Teamwork. When the whole team survives fear because they were able to use the Cleric's will save thanks to your tactician, they finally issue up some grudging thanks for having a cavalier with them.
