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Hi i am having a conflict about this and I would love to have a game designer comment. I am aware that it was cleared up before, but I seem to have lost that thread, so If we can clear this up as "officially" as possible that would be awesome.
Buckler
"This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
-I can use a bow or crossbow without ANY penalty. In all other shield descriptions, the act of carrying the shield gives you the AC bonus. So according to this I can have a Buckler strapped to my arm (thus receiving the bonus) while I use a crossbow with two hands at no penalty. That is what the first line says. Right?
You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons.
-The above applies to MELEE WEAPONS as Bows and Crossbows receive no penalty. Not the use of "off hand weapon" implying melee weapons as well.
In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.
-This again refers to offhand weapon use which implies melee weapons as when you use a bow or crossbow with two hands there is no "off hand"
Please, please post an official response, preferably one that agrees with me so I can move past this.
Bows and crossbows are two-handed weapons, and you use your off hand to help wield them. Because you're using a weapon in your off hand, you do not benefit from the buckler's AC bonus. However, you can make attacks with your bow or crossbow at no penalty.
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You take no penalty with a bow or crossbow while carrying a buckler. Carrying doesn't necessarily mean wielding. When you fire or reload your crossbow using both hands, you are using a weapon with your off-hand, you therefore aren't wielding the buckler as a shield and you lose its AC bonus until your next turn.
Failing to get your shield bonus is not a penalty. If "weapon" meant "melee weapon" it would have said so.
agree with the above interpretations
You take no penalty with a bow or crossbow while carrying a buckler. Carrying doesn't necessarily mean wielding. When you fire or reload your crossbow using both hands, you are using a weapon with your off-hand, you therefore aren't wielding the buckler as a shield and you lose its AC bonus until your next turn.
Failing to get your shield bonus is not a penalty. If "weapon" meant "melee weapon" it would have said so.
This is specifically wear I have a problem. Because in all other shield descriptions it does not say you have to "wield" the shield to get a bonus. It just says carrying the shield. You are carrying the buckler, so you should get the bonus.
Also while a X-bow is held in two hands it is not the same as fighting with 2 short swords. Or even a two handed sword. I am not waving it around and I could easily put up an arm to block both before and after I take the shot. or before and after I pull a lever to reload. I am not constantly swinging the weapon around.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As I pointed out in the other recent thread on this topic, you have to take into account that "penalty" is a term with specific rules meaning:
Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score.
A "penalty" is a subcategory of "modifier", and the opposite of "bonus". The -1 to hit incurred by wielding a weapon with your buckler arm is a penalty. The loss of a shield bonus is NOT a penalty (as far as the rules are concerned). Thus, the "use a bow or crossbow without penalty" language only nullifies the -1 to hit. The "in any case, you lose the AC bonus" does not involve a penalty and is therefore unaffected by the statement of "without penalty".
There it is, in black and white. Know your terms, and you're in good shape with most of the rules.
You could use a hand crossbow without losing the buckler's AC bonus.
Just to clarify, this would be the case if you were firing it from the hand that does not have the buckler attached to its arm. If you used the same arm as the buckler, you'd still lose the AC bonus.
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As I pointed out in the other recent thread on this topic, you have to take into account that "penalty" is a term with specific rules meaning:
Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score.A "penalty" is a subcategory of "modifier", and the opposite of "bonus". The -1 to hit incurred by wielding a weapon with your buckler arm is a penalty. The loss of a shield bonus is NOT a penalty (as far as the rules are concerned). Thus, the "use a bow or crossbow without penalty" language only nullifies the -1 to hit. The "in any case, you lose the AC bonus" does not involve a penalty and is therefore unaffected by the statement of "without penalty".
There it is, in black and white. Know your terms, and you're in good shape with most of the rules.
No one that i have seen is trying to argue "without penalty = AC bonus" So I don't know what you are talking about.
The way I read it is:
If you are wearing any shield you get is AC bonus
If you wear a buckler and use a bow or X-bow you get the AC bonus and do not take penalties
If you wear a buckler and use a melee weapon you will take penalties and receive no bonus if you use the buckler hand to attack.
The controversy is do you count a bow or crossbow, which are steady weapons, (which you could logically still be able to use a hand to block incoming attacks with); Count as melee weapons, (which you have to wave around, and are less readily able to use an arm to block with.)
"penalty" has nothing to do with it. We are discussing when the bonus applies.
"penalty" has nothing to do with it. We are discussing when the bonus applies.
OK, so the bolded point shows when you do not apply the bonus. That is when that arm is used to wield/fire/use a weapon. A bow/crossbow being two handed weapons require you to use your off hand, so you would lose your buckler bonus...unless maybe you have it on a third arm via an alchemist vestigal appendage type power.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
The way I read it is:
If you are wearing any shield you get is AC bonus
If you wear a buckler and use a bow or X-bow you get the AC bonus and do not take penalties
If you wear a buckler and use a melee weapon you will take penalties and receive no bonus if you use the buckler hand to attack.The controversy is do you count a bow or crossbow, which are steady weapons, (which you could logically still be able to use a hand to block incoming attacks with); Count as melee weapons, (which you have to wave around, and are less readily able to use an arm to block with.)
"penalty" has nothing to do with it. We are discussing when the bonus applies.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Why would you be able to wield a crossbow in two hands and still get your buckler AC bonus, but if you wield a halberd you don't?
The reason you can wear/wield/carry/whatever a buckler and still be able to use that arm to wield/use/fire a weapon is that it is small and doesn't greatly encumber you compared to any other type of shield you may have. Without dwelling on the ergonomics of combat, the buckler arm is held steady while firing a bow or crossbow so it doesn't affect your attacks. Whereas wielding a melee weapon involves a lot more motion and the buckler would slightly encumber you, hence the attack penalty.
But if you are doing something else with the arm that the buckler is on - namely attack - then you aren't in a position to use that arm to defend yourself.
The advantage of a buckler is that you can choose to switch between using it for an AC bonus instantaneously when you want to use it for defence - that is, you don't need to take an action of some kind to put it on as you would if you had another type of shield.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls.
Not central to the core of the debate I know... but it's an interesting point to consider.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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No one that i have seen is trying to argue "without penalty = AC bonus" So I don't know what you are talking about.
The way I read it is:
If you are wearing any shield you get is AC bonus
If you wear a buckler and use a bow or X-bow you get the AC bonus and do not take penalties
If you wear a buckler and use a melee weapon you will take penalties and receive no bonus if you use the buckler hand to attack.The controversy is do you count a bow or crossbow, which are steady weapons, (which you could logically still be able to use a hand to block incoming attacks with); Count as melee weapons, (which you have to wave around, and are less readily able to use an arm to block with.)
"penalty" has nothing to do with it. We are discussing when the bonus applies.
I think... perhaps you misunderstood my post? All your statements about the relevant rules agree with what I was saying. Especially those last two sentences of yours:
"penalty" has nothing to do with it.
That was my whole point.
We are discussing when the bonus applies.
Which is why I bothered to point out that the penalty clause was unrelated - near as I could tell, the ONLY argument in favor of keeping the AC bonus when firing a bow was the idea that maybe the "without penalty" clause prevented you from losing that bonus. I debunked that theory. So how exactly was that not related to a discussion of when the bonus applies?
No. The important sentence is :"In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn."
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You are replying to a 13 years old thread.
And your idea doesn't work (barring special abilities). When you have used both your hands to attack, you are locked into using them to attack.
You can change the weapon wielded, but you can't switch to using them to defend.
Again specific abilities and archetyped can change that, but without specifications, we are speaking of the base rules.
Buckler
"This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
I am surprised nobody has pointed out that if you take the wording strictly literally it means you will never take any kind of penalty, i.e. it negates range penalties, those for cover, anything.
It is a little insane to interpret the rules like this. Then again, some GMs are a little insane, so why not try your luck?
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Buckler
"This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."I am surprised nobody has pointed out that if you take the wording strictly literally it means you will never take any kind of penalty, i.e. it negates range penalties, those for cover, anything.
It is a little insane to interpret the rules like this. Then again, some GMs are a little insane, so why not try your luck?
First, because some GMs don't take that kind of attempt very kindly.
You don't want me to take your character sheet and verify every little detail.Second, it has already been tried with other similar wording and it was shot down in the FAQs.
hield Master: When Shield Master says “You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon” it seems like in context it means you don’t take the penalty for Two-Weapon Fighting, but it just says “any penalties” so it isn’t clear. Which penalties does the feat let a character ignore?
Shield Master allows a character to ignore the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties on attack rolls with a shield while wielding another weapon, but not any other penalties.
posted February 2017 | back to top
Diego you are right about the Pathfinder rules of course.
You don't seem to be as good at spotting a joke. Lighten up a bit dude.