The interaction of Eidolons, Summon Eidolon, Augment Summoning, and Summoner's Call.

[Cheapy]

So.

How do these interact? I have found no official statements on these, and have searched both JB and SKR's posts for talk about this. Also checked the FAQs. So of course, an official response would be spiffy, to settle these arguments once and for all.

An Eidolon summoned using the ritual doesn't gain Augment Summons, since it's an unmarked Su ability, not a spell-like or spell.

An Eidolon summoned using the ritual gains the benefits of Summoner's Call.

Those two cases seem fairly clear.

An Eidolon summoned using the spell Summon Eidolon gains Augment Summons, since the spell is a Conjuration (Summoning) and the Eidolon is treated as a normal summoned creature. Correct?

An Eidolon summoned using the spell Summon Eidolon with Summoner's Call gets the bonus?

An Eidolon summoned using the spell Summon Eidolon with Summoner's Call and Augment Summons could get +4 Str and +4 Con (for duration of spell), and +2 Dex (for 10 minutes)?

[Gjorbjond]

Augment Summoning works only with "Summon" spells. Not Conjuration(Summoning) or "any ability that summons a monster". It only works with spells that have "Summon" in the name: Summon Monster, Summon Natures Ally, Summon Eidolon, and Summon Swarm (not that it really does much for that one).

Since SLAs are "just like spells" with some specific exceptions if you have a SLA of a "Summon" spell, the feat will work with it.

[David Thomassen]

1 Eidolon Summoned with Ritual - No Augmented Summons - Agree
2 Eidolon Summoned with Ritual - Benefits from Summoners Call- Agree
3A Eidolon Summoned with Spell - Benefits from Augment Summons - Agree
3B Eidolon Summoned with Spell - Treated as a normal Summoned Creature - Agree
4 Eidolon Summoned with Spell- Benefits from Summoners Call- Disagree
5 Eidolon Summoned with Spell- Benefits from SC & AS- Disagree (Just AS)

1 Augmented Summoning Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it. Ritual, not spell therefore no benefit from feat
2 Summoner's Call Benefit: Whenever you summon your eidolon, you may give it a +2 enhancement bonus to its Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus lasts 10 minutes after the summoning ritual is complete. Summoned via Ritual, so benefis from Feat
3A Summoned with Spell so Benefits from Feat
3B Summon Eidolon Spell "...While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic...." So same effect as a creature summoned by the spell Summon Monster I
4 Summoned with spell, not Ritual, so no effect
5 Summoned with spell, not Ritual, so no effect from Summoners Call, Just Augment Summoning (if they did work your numbers are correct as both feats provide an Enhancement bonus)

[Gjorbjond]

Personally, I think Summoner's Call is a horrible enough feat that allowing it to work with the spell shouldn't be an issue.

I prefer to think of it "anytime you summon your eidolon it gets a bonus which can last no longer than 10 minutes". Basically the 1st sentence states the requirements for the effect coming into play and the second sentence establishes a limit on the buff's duration.

[Dangleberry Tagnut]

It's unclear enough, in that it doesn't specifically state whether it applies to all summoning, summoning via ritual, or summoning via spell/SLA, therefore, I'd like to get the intent clarified before I potentially waste a feat or spell choice.

[james maissen]

Gjorbjond wrote:

Personally, I think Summoner's Call is a horrible enough feat that allowing it to work with the spell shouldn't be an issue.

Honestly I think that house ruling bad feats is a better response than questionable/wrong interpretations of them out of pity.

My suggestion is to have the feat let a summoner 1/day summon via ritual an eidolon that's been sent back to their home plane by damage, etc that would normally prevent the summoner from bringing them back.

It still would not be a good feat, but it would feel like it had more of a use.

-James

[Coke]

How does a summon eidolon spell work in these instances?

Quote:

If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.

How does damage interact with the summon eidolon spell compared to the ritual when the eidolon was killed off? I know through the ritual you won't be able to summon your eidolon at least until a day has passed and its at 1/2 hit points, but what if it was summoned again by spell? Does this bring the hitpoint back again to full?

I mean if the Eidolon at full hitpoints at the start of the day summoned through ritual, was killed, then re-summoned back through the spell, will i have a 0 hitpoint eidolon that gets banished again?

Can Summon Eidolon spell be placed in a wand or in a scroll? Sorry for this question, I'm new to pathfinder.

[Bobson]

Coke wrote:

How does a summon eidolon spell work in these instances?

Quote:

If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.

How does damage interact with the summon eidolon spell compared to the ritual when the eidolon was killed off? I know through the ritual you won't be able to summon your eidolon at least until a day has passed and its at 1/2 hit points, but what if it was summoned again by spell? Does this bring the hitpoint back again to full?

I mean if the Eidolon at full hitpoints at the start of the day summoned through ritual, was killed, then re-summoned back through the spell, will i have a 0 hitpoint eidolon that gets banished again?

Can Summon Eidolon spell be placed in a wand or in a scroll? Sorry for this question, I'm new to pathfinder.

It comes back at half hit points, same as usual. That still wouldn't let you resummon it with the ritual after the spell wore off, though.

And you can certainly put it in a wand or scroll, but it does nothing unless the person using the wand/scroll actually has an eidolon to summon. So you can't UMD it to suddenly get an Eidolon.

[Thalin]

David has it right.

Ritual summon, gets Summoner's call only. It has been mentioned by the design they don't get augment but...

Summon Eidilon... they do get augment, again they've gone over this in past threads. On the other hand, the feat Summoner's call mentions the ritual.

So you get one or the other, but not both :).

[james maissen]

Coke wrote:

How does damage interact with the summon eidolon spell compared to the ritual when the eidolon was killed off?

Summon Eidolon would call up a fully healed eidolon, but this eidolon would not have any benefits/detractions from the normal ritual calling of the eidolon.

It's closer to the optional 3e rule to summon 'specific' individual monsters via monster summoning. (i.e. you don't summon nameless Small Earth Elemental, you summon Bob the small earth elemental each time you choose to summon a small earth elemental).

Coke wrote:

Can Summon Eidolon spell be placed in a wand or in a scroll? Sorry for this question, I'm new to pathfinder.

Yes it can. Though since the effect is tied to the user/reader's eidolon if they didn't have one it wouldn't do anything.

Scenario 2 summoners and a bard walk into a bar.

Summoner 1 uses the wand (it's on his spell list so no check, etc) and summons his (summoner 1's) eidolon. He passes the wand to Summoner 2.

Summoner 2 uses the wand and summons her (summoner 2's) eidolon. She then tosses the wand to the bard.

Our dashing bard flourishes the wand and activates it (via UMD as the spell is not on his list) but nothing happens but burning a charge. This is because our poor bard doesn't have his/her own eidolon.

-James

[Neall Raemonn Price]

This seems pretty clear-cut. One benefit or the other depending on the method, but not both.

[Coke]

The spell summon eidolon would say:

"Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. "

If it were summoned normally through the ritual and I'm just making the assumption that this is how its normally summoned, then a killed off eidolon either comes back at 0 hp or half..

Also..

If i make an item that allows me to summon an eidolon, through the spell.. how is this computed? is my math right?

Will it be

Spell level x caster level x 2000?

Is spell level the level of the spell or the the level you want the spell to be at? meaning i want it at level 5 for example, will it be treated as a level 5 spell?

Caster level, is this based on minimum level to cast the spell or can i for example set it at caster level 1 in terms of power?

Summon Eidolon is a level 2 spell cast by a level 4 summoner.

Will this mean it will be computed at 2(spell level) x 4(caster level) x 2000? or can i make it as a level 2 spell but caster level 1 in terms of duration or power?

[Gary Teter]

[Removed "FAQ Question" from thread title since that could basically apply to every single thread in this forum.]

[Cheapy]

I was young and didn't know better :(

[Bobson]

Coke wrote:

If i make an item that allows me to summon an eidolon, through the spell.. how is this computed? is my math right?

Will it be

Spell level x caster level x 2000?

Is spell level the level of the spell or the the level you want the spell to be at? meaning i want it at level 5 for example, will it be treated as a level 5 spell?

Caster level, is this based on minimum level to cast the spell or can i for example set it at caster level 1 in terms of power?

Summon Eidolon is a level 2 spell cast by a level 4 summoner.

Will this mean it will be computed at 2(spell level) x 4(caster level) x 2000? or can i make it as a level 2 spell but caster level 1 in terms of duration or power?

Creating magic items can be a confusing business.

If you want it as a wand, the price is 700 gp * the level of the spell * the level of the caster. You can't create one at less than the minimum caster level needed to cast the spell (which would be 4), although you could create it at up to your current caster level to get a longer-duration summon. So a basic wand would cost 700*2*4 = 5600gp and each use would last for 4 minutes. If you have the Craft Wand feat, you can make it yourself for 2800.

If you want a scroll, the price is 50 gp * the level of the spell * the level of the caster, so 50*2*4 = 400 (200 to craft if you have Scribe Scroll).

If you wanted it as an slotted item (like an amulet) you could use to cast it whenever you wanted, that would be 2000 * the level of the spell * the level of the caster * 2 (for minute/level spells), or 2000*2*4*2 = 32000 (16000 to craft). It would be up to the GM whether you would have to activate this item every 4 minutes, or whether it'd be continuous once activated (which would make more sense). If you wanted it to not take up a body slot, you'd double that price.

Wands and scrolls you can make yourself without issue. A custom magic item has to be approved by your GM, and the cost I cited is only an estimate. He may decide that being able to ignore the inability to summon the eidolon after it's been killed is a big enough boost to increase the price. Or he might decide that the extra restrictions on spell-summoned eidolons are enough to make it reasonable.

[james maissen]

Coke wrote:

If i make an item that allows me to summon an eidolon, through the spell.. how is this computed?

The DM assigns a value to it after first deciding to allow it at all.

There are tables for GUIDELINES as to what value to assign, but they are guidelines and should only be taken as such.

So if you're a player in the campaign, you ask your DM who might require that you hire a sage to determine if such an item could be made and how to do so.

If your the DM then you want to price it reasonably. If you make it too good to be true, then you lower the value of spells known.

-James

[Canton Ohio Pathfinder Lodge]

Ok here is my arguement for why eidolon Do get augmented Summoning. If you read the first two sentences in summon monster 1 from Advanced player's guide page 56:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner
can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of
times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing
upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner
uses to call his eidolon.

That right there tell you that your eidolon and other monsters you summon use the same powers to get summoned, that is why you can't summon a monster when your eidolon is there and that is why they both would get augmented summoning reguardless of how it is worded weather you use the word ritual or not it still does the same thing as summoning other monsters.

[Cheapy]

Jason Bulmahn specifically said they don't hwre:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1tmm?Round-2-Rules-Questions#21