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I feel I must point out that some of the grievances others mention here are actually things I like about Golarion; especially the number and quality of gods, the humano-centricism, and absolutely the lack of other high-level personalities in the world.
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I think a lot of the folks posting in this thread want/expect more of a 'high fantasy' setting... whereas Golarion strikes me as more 'sword & sorcery' in the R.E. Howard sense, from the way the gods interact (or don't) with each other, the minimal importance of demihumans, etc. They just add a little more magic and tech to the mix. Which is fine by me, as I vastly prefer that sort of thing over Tolkien-style stuff.
I am a little bugged by the Tian stuff, but I'll get over it. It seems just a touch weeabo. Maybe I'm just bitter the ninja got a ton of cool new toys that the rogue can't touch, though, so I have to beg my GM for leeway to make my dirty street fighter rogue effective. :)
Oh, and I wish there were more dead/forgotten gods fleshed out in the setting - coinciding with the various collapsed/lost empires that are strewn throughout the world's history. Gods portrayed as immortal but yet not invincible and utterly removed from threats from the material world appeal to me.
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I feel I must point out that some of the grievances others mention here are actually things I like about Golarion; especially the number and quality of gods, the humano-centricism, and absolutely the lack of other high-level personalities in the world.
</threadjack>
I think a lot of the folks posting in this thread want/expect more of a 'high fantasy' setting... whereas Golarion strikes me as more 'sword & sorcery' in the R.E. Howard sense, from the way the gods interact (or don't) with each other, the minimal importance of demihumans, etc. They just add a little more magic and tech to the mix. Which is fine by me, as I vastly prefer that sort of thing over Tolkien-style stuff.
I am a little bugged by the Tian stuff, but I'll get over it. It seems just a touch weeabo. Maybe I'm just bitter the ninja got a ton of cool new toys that the rogue can't touch, though, so I have to beg my GM for leeway to make my dirty street fighter rogue effective. :)
Oh, and I wish there were more dead/forgotten gods fleshed out in the setting - coinciding with the various collapsed/lost empires that are strewn throughout the world's history. Gods portrayed as immortal but yet not invincible and utterly removed from threats from the material world appeal to me.
Even Tolkien's work was considerably more low-fantasy than 90% of D20 settings. The magic in LOTR is very subtle and low on the flash-factor. High Fantasy has come to imply a category into which I'm not convinced LOTR actually fits very well anymore.
All that said, I like Golarion fine, and a sign of how well it's designed is the fact that there's nothing that I dislike in the setting that can't be made a non-factor by virtue of where I choose to set my campaign. I like that.
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Even Tolkien's work was considerably more low-fantasy than 90% of D20 settings. The magic in LOTR is very subtle and low on the flash-factor. High Fantasy has come to imply a category into which I'm not convinced LOTR actually fits very well anymore.
True enough - I guess I was referring more to his treatment of the various non-human races. The thing that bugged me about FR and the like is that I didn't find demihumans credible, in terms of their homogeneity. Others in this thread have said they felt demihumans were too 'stereotyped', but if you look at the various strains of elf in FR - any divergence from the central racial stereotype is in itself some kind of subrace (moon, sun, wild, drow, etc) in a way that seems more genetic and forced than human ethnicities. Human experience, though, continuously illustrates the vast cultural gulfs that develop in any large population of a sentient species as that species spreads its territory and develops its culture(s). The 'elf stereotype' or 'dwarf stereotype' doesn't strike me as feasible for a population of over a million or so - there would be schisms, local customs, and major differences arising within a given species, let alone between various subspecies of a parent race. The only way to really make it believable, at least for me, is to portray these races as a small, fairly cohesive population, which is largely the way they're presented on Golarion. I like The Forlorn a lot in this respect because they allow for the fact that not every elf is created with the elven stereotype burned into them from birth - it's a product of a credibly-crafted culture. I guess the difference is subtle - basically, you raise a human with Japanese parents in Brazil (with Brazilian parents), that person's probably going to have a Brazilian cultural identity. You raise a moon elf in a green elf village, you still seem stuck with a moon elf - their personality is genetic for some inexplicable reason.
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I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
Thats because I only let mine out after dark, and it's well trained.
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You know what? I do have something that bugs me.
I honestly have no idea what most people eat.
Sure, I can hand-wave things. And yeah, it's probably not very important. Would I waste word-count on it if I were the editor? Probably not. But that doesn't change the fact that I really want to know what the heck, for instance, the Ulfen in the far north eat. Or whether Cheliax' has control of sugarcane production in Arcadia and so has a monopoly on confections. Does Andoran enjoy the spiced curry of Jalmeray? No idea.
And ... it's a small thing ... but damnit it leaves me frustrated now and again. Probably something I should just start a thread on these messageboards over Hrmph.
Creative Director
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Just once, I'd like one of the artists to actually walk into a museum and look at a real sword.Is that all the artists, though? It seems like mostly WAR's design choice, and not everyone's.
It's Seoni's cankles I can't forgive. That, or how she only gets decent ankles and some kind of skin-bleaching job at the same time.
As a matter of fact, Wayne Reynolds, who painted Amiri and her giant sword, DOES go to museums frequently to study weapons and the like.
(ducks back out of thread and pretends he never noticed the thread in the first place so as to preserve his shaky remnants of sanity)
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My roommate says that I am bad person who started a thread that "Insulted his brain child and threatened his sanity. On his own site. You are a bad person and borderline troll and are the kind of person I want to punch on the internet."
He lightly punched my arm.
My response "Ow. You hurt my feeling."
Take all that as you will.
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As a matter of fact, Wayne Reynolds, who painted Amiri and her giant sword, DOES go to museums frequently to study weapons and the like.
Really! Thats kinda cool. I've actually read the background for that character and I feel the over-sized sword really works for her.
(ducks back out of thread and pretends he never noticed the thread in the first place so as to preserve his shaky remnants of sanity)
Sanity is over rated and interrupts the creative process, cast it aside.
My response "Ow. You hurt my feeling."Take all that as you will.
Nonsense, you're an NPC, you don't get real feelings, otherwise we'd feel bad for killing you for xp.
The vast majority of the deity descriptions read something like a monthly horoscope. It often gives me the impression that they are powerful petty mortals rather than the primal forces of the universe.
I also find the real-world cultural/period parallels jarring for a fantasy setting.
None of these complaints aren't things that a good DM can't fix with some judicious use of deific powers to reshape the campaign setting.
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The vast majority of the deity descriptions read something like a monthly horoscope. It often gives me the impression that they are powerful petty mortals rather than the primal forces of the universe.
Have you read most mythology? ;)
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Have you read most mythology? ;)The vast majority of the deity descriptions read something like a monthly horoscope. It often gives me the impression that they are powerful petty mortals rather than the primal forces of the universe.
Not only that, a decent number of the gods did used to be "powerful petty mortals".
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As a matter of fact, Wayne Reynolds, who painted Amiri and her giant sword, DOES go to museums frequently to study weapons and the like.
Sorry -- I should have been more clear. I meant a museum with actual medieval weapons, not the Manga Museum. ;P
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As a matter of fact, Wayne Reynolds, who painted Amiri and her giant sword, DOES go to museums frequently to study weapons and the like.Sorry -- I should have been more clear. I meant a museum with actual medieval weapons, not the Manga Museum. ;P
Amiri's sword is a Large (or Huge) sword taken from a slain frost giant. Reading backstories of iconics never hurts!
Amiri's sword is a Large (or Huge) sword taken from a slain frost giant. Reading backstories of iconics never hurts!
If hers were the only example of an absurd-looking weapon, I'd give you that. But Valeros' and most of the NPCs' and monsters' weapons look like they're carved out of stone and are missing big chunks out of them because... well, because WAR likes the look. And I kind of suspect Amiri's backstory was tailored to the art, and not the other way around.
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Creative Director
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As a matter of fact, Wayne Reynolds, who painted Amiri and her giant sword, DOES go to museums frequently to study weapons and the like.Sorry -- I should have been more clear. I meant a museum with actual medieval weapons, not the Manga Museum. ;P
I should have been more clear as well, then. Wayne lives in England, and I believe the museum he visits is the Leeds Armory. Which seems pretty legit to me.
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Creative Director
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Amiri's sword is a Large (or Huge) sword taken from a slain frost giant. Reading backstories of iconics never hurts!If hers were the only example of an absurd-looking weapon, I'd give you that. But Valeros' and most of the NPCs' and monsters' weapons look like they're carved out of stone and are missing big chunks out of them because... well, because WAR likes the look. And I kind of suspect Amiri's backstory was tailored to the art, and not the other way around.
Actually, I believe for Amiri we asked Wayne to give her a big big sword from the start. He did. And that then inspired us to come up with her story.
Like it or not... characters who fight with oversized weapons are actually pretty popular.
And damnit... I need to stay out of this thread. I've books to build!
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Amiri's sword is a Large (or Huge) sword taken from a slain frost giant. Reading backstories of iconics never hurts!If hers were the only example of an absurd-looking weapon, I'd give you that. But Valeros' and most of the NPCs' and monsters' weapons look like they're carved out of stone and are missing big chunks out of them because... well, because WAR likes the look. And I kind of suspect Amiri's backstory was tailored to the art, and not the other way around.
Actually, I believe for Amiri we asked Wayne to give her a big big sword from the start. He did. And that then inspired us to come up with her story.
Like it or not... characters who fight with oversized weapons are actually pretty popular.
And damnit... I need to stay out of this thread. I've books to build!
Bah, don't you like looking at contradictory coplaints about your creation?
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Some things about Golarion that I personally, don't care for.
1.) The death of Aroden, in a lot of ways.
* Human Patron, again = dead
* Leads to the inaccuracy of prophecy, which I like as a character/story element. Making it untrustworthy ruins that, and was a terrible idea, and also breaks immersion for most Diviniations, not to mention fun concepts.
* Might have been cool as something for players to experience. Is not cool as something that players have to deal with as a past element they have no control over.
2.) How confining the deities are.
Yet again a cool death deity, with lots of dark powers,. . . that hates undead. . . :(
Way to much cultural link to the deities, well to specific ones like Sarenrae, Irori, etc. . .
Very little has been done to differentiate Clerics/Priests of different deities, at least in ways that mechanics support "fluff".
3.) Pirates <or Ninja/Samurai/Katanas>. Enough already. They are not that cool. (personal opinion)
4.) Too much "arcane" everything. If you are not a Wizard or Bard, you are not worthy of having a cool mystery element. (partial exageration)
5.) Too much neutral aligned stuff. It kind of feels like everything is really LN, N, or CN, (even if that really translates to the intent of LN really being CE).
6.) Little progression over all of various elements.
7.) Tiefling overdone = lack of Aasimar goodness :)
8.) Lack of good undead, and also good aligned undead controlers/necromancers, especially in the divine dept.
A lot of this stuff I understand the reasons behind. I just, personally, don't like the results. Especially with #1. Overused and constraining rather than interesting and encouraging of concepts. Again, just my opinion.
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My roommate says that I am bad person who started a thread that "Insulted his brain child and threatened his sanity. On his own site. You are a bad person and borderline troll and are the kind of person I want to punch on the internet."
He lightly punched my arm.
My response "Ow. You hurt my feeling."
Take all that as you will.
The thing is, Paizo is not the evil corporation (whom shall be unnamed but whos name begins with an H and ends with an O).
The evil unnamed corporation isn't interested in listening to its customers.
Paizo on the other hand is very actively interested in hearing what we (the customer) has to say. Hence they have a lively messageboard like this with James Jacobs reading and commenting on what we have to say. Hence they put out great stuff since they listen to and actively engage with its customers directly.
Its ok Paizo is a big boy, they can handle the heat. This is probably precisely the kind of thing that they want cause it just makes them make their stuff better. Feedback loop at work here.
I appreciate Paizo for the great products that they put out. I know I'll continue giving them my money for the foreseeable future. Regardless of whatever gripes I or anyone has, IMHO they continue to put out THE premier RPG products, period. No other company comes even close.
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Amiri's sword is a Large (or Huge) sword taken from a slain frost giant. Reading backstories of iconics never hurts!If hers were the only example of an absurd-looking weapon, I'd give you that. But Valeros' and most of the NPCs' and monsters' weapons look like they're carved out of stone and are missing big chunks out of them because... well, because WAR likes the look. And I kind of suspect Amiri's backstory was tailored to the art, and not the other way around.
Actually, I believe for Amiri we asked Wayne to give her a big big sword from the start. He did. And that then inspired us to come up with her story.
Like it or not... characters who fight with oversized weapons are actually pretty popular.
And damnit... I need to stay out of this thread. I've books to build!
like Rise of the Rune Lords revisit? or is it something new?
But totally not fitting Aroden's LN alignment.Then again, I also like the idea that Aroden's death was some sort of purposeful effort to free humanity (and by extension all of mortal races) from the yoke of predestination.That is awesome.
Why, out of curiosity? Are neutral alignments, in your opinion, not allowed to be self-sacrificing for a higher cause?
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A LN god that seeks to guide humanity instead wants to free them from the destiny that he's been making happen? Sounds more than a bit Chaotic to me, but Aroden may have had a radical change of heart in the time before his death.
Maaaaaaybe Aroden's surname before ascending to divinity was Veidt? >_> <_< ^_-
Who says he sacrificed himself, maybe he was killed for that reason.
Amiri's sword is a Large (or Huge) sword taken from a slain frost giant. Reading backstories of iconics never hurts!If hers were the only example of an absurd-looking weapon, I'd give you that. But Valeros' and most of the NPCs' and monsters' weapons look like they're carved out of stone and are missing big chunks out of them because... well, because WAR likes the look. And I kind of suspect Amiri's backstory was tailored to the art, and not the other way around.
Actually, I believe for Amiri we asked Wayne to give her a big big sword from the start. He did. And that then inspired us to come up with her story.
Like it or not... characters who fight with oversized weapons are actually pretty popular.
And damnit... I need to stay out of this thread. I've books to build!
Speaking of weapons, I have to say that I've always thought that the Starknife was particularly absurd. As a throwing weapon it's bad enough, but it's listed in the rulebook as a melee weapon.
How!? Attacking with it would be hard enough without cutting your arm, but the first time you tried to block an enemies strike one of the blades would be driven back into your own body!
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That Aasimar look like mostly normal humans. Of course, this bugged me in D&D also. You get a nice shot of planetouched and everyone looks like they have non human blood except the Aasimar.
Planescape, the place where aasimar and tieflings debuted, is the only setting which actually avoided that trap with any regularity IIRC.
It had Qaida at least, who was cool and an obviously-not-human aasimar.
Who says he sacrificed himself, maybe he was killed for that reason.I could go with that angle.The bits we've heard about Aroden actually remind me a lot of the Doctor, as he's been shown in the new Doctor Who series. It isn't an exact parallel of course.
He was the last of a very powerful race. He wandered Golarion before his ascension and probably much further thereafter. He raised the Starstone, and founded Absalom, but never ruled there.
Later he seemed to take less and less direct action, prefer to guide others (for example he was in Absalom when Nex laid siege, but did nothing directly, and it was his heralds; Azrani and later Iomedae who fought against the Whispering Tyrant, rather than Aroden himself). Throughout the ages he walked as man and god, he also seemed to leave many evils unaddressed entirely.
It seems like he first acted as a protector for humanity after Earthfall, and then as a guide when civilization began to return. Taking human form again and ruling as the prophecy foretold seems like a backwards step. So, if Aroden wanted humanity to stand on his own, a sacrifice seems like it could have been warranted.
Then again, to use the Doctor comparison again, I could see forces moving to kill him for that reason. Aroden was probably the biggest guiding force for humanity since the fall of Azlant, and no one could doubt that he had many enemies. Even ignoring the outright evil ones, I could see more benevolent-minded foes who thought that direct rule by Aroden would stifle humanity, and they had to stop this to free mortals from pre-destiny and his influence.
Anyway, enough off topic. I'll start a new thread if the discussion seems to continue :)
The question then becomes, who did he regenerate into? ;)
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It had Qaida at least, who was cool and an obviously-not-human aasimar.
Evil, hot, and bald... oh well, can't win on all three I guess. ;)
Then again, I also like the idea that Aroden's death was some sort of purposeful effort to free humanity (and by extension all of mortal races) from the yoke of predestination.Oh my god yes this is awesome. I have a certain player that would love this, if I can find somewhere to squeeze it in. Please keep going, good sir!
and Ulgulanoth, if the "ask james" thread is any judge, he's working hard on the Dragon Empires Gazeteer and some other Tian-Xia related stuff on the side. Which definately involves a lot more writing on his part.
I haven't the slightest idea what happened up there, nor can I seem to fix the formatting. :/
i always thought there should be more Gods. Each region with thier own mythology.
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I'm not a big fan of Golarion's resemblance of some sort of anachronistic Earth. Golarion has dinosaurs. It also has steampunk...and don't forget the 18th century Earth-like cultures. All of this coexists with some standard high fantasy.
Golarion in general also seems to be dominated by humans, with very little real estate (in books or in the world) given to demihumans.
Obviously these fluff elements are all personal opinions and you can't make one setting that will please everyone. I'm fine with that. If I ever get around to running my own homebrew campaign, I may take it back to Forgotten Realms, or I may just use a subset of Golarion or use the maps and such, but change the cultures that occupy those regions/cities.
It pushes Always Chaotic Evil for some races a bit too hard for my tastes, though I'm grateful for the exceptions that show it isn't really the case.
Not a fan of the Bekyar as written for similar reasons, but South Garund provides ample opportunity for non-evil members of that ethnicity.
Would also love to see more focus on Vudra, Jalmeray, and/or Osirion, but that's not really a complaint about the setting.
I agree with these things, but also I don't really like the Lovecraftian tones either, for reasons I have explained on other threads before. I also don't like the Hobgoblins of Golarion (the ones in Kaoling being an exception) nor the Kobolds, but at least Apsu and metallic dragons hold potential for my Kobold Paladin idea.
...and someone mentioned Aroden's death. Yeah, it does piss me off that a setting with a decent god of humanity finally shows up, but he bites the dust before the game can even really begin. The only other Human Deity, Zarus (Lawful Evil) is a total arse and boring even as a villain.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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1- The lack of "ye olde medieval kingdom". I wanted to do a generic character as my first Golarion PC to ease me in the setting. My choice:
Absalom: Well it is medieval, but no king and no monarch and a trade city rather than being land-based.
Cheliax: Demon infested, not really baseline for a traditional kingdom.
Taldor: An empire that has more a "west meet east" vibe than a traditionnal western kingdom vibe.
So at the start, I am already out of my comfort zone even before I had the time to familiarize myself with the setting. And how do I bring other players in without this to ease them in?
You might want to try Lastwall here, which is pretty classical in that it it knightly, wedged between "always chaotic evil" enemies. Not terribly developed, but it is there.
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i always thought there should be more Gods. Each region with thier own mythology.
I actually would hope that the deities would be more broad, and there would be less of them, so that they can encompass more themes and concepts. More deities is a bad thing in my opinion, as t really starts to spread them thin on uniqueness, and it quickly gets to be "what's the point". It does not add anything to the game, in my opinion, where as if you have a handful of deites, but they are broad enough that a variaty of very different worshipers could reasonably come from them, that adds a lot of depth and a lot of potentual for players, which in my mind is the single most important thing to be concidered in the game.
I actually would hope that the deities would be more broad, and there would be less of them, so that they can encompass more themes and concepts.
I agree that a number of the Golarion gods are too specifically gimmicky for my taste (Calistria being a prime example). But I'm sure that for everyone like me who doesn't like the gimmick, there's someone else who loves it.
The same thing applies to the nations of Golarion, for that matter.
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Maybe, but by allowing broader focus, those "gimmicky" things would still be there, not altered at all, it just wouldn't be the only train in town, so to speak. Actually, those gimmicks would still likely be the most common examples of that faith, as that's what we OOC know as the norm. It would actually help to reenforce that concept, but not blanket it as the only one.
I dislike the location of the equator...I think it should cut right through the inner sea, the Inner sea region is organized like Europe/Africa.
I love the new gnomes
I wish the hobgoblins had their own Greek/Romanesque Nation though, they're militaristic, organized and lawful, they've never been done correctly, though in 1e, the samurai look fit them well, I'd rather see them with tower shields and short swords.
Maybe, but by allowing broader focus, those "gimmicky" things would still be there, not altered at all, it just wouldn't be the only train in town, so to speak. Actually, those gimmicks would still likely be the most common examples of that faith, as that's what we OOC know as the norm. It would actually help to reenforce that concept, but not blanket it as the only one.
One of the things I liked about the Dragon Empires is that many of the gods are western gods in an eastern form. Though the omission of Erastil was confusing as he would have been the easiest and most appropriate to port over to the new setting.