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I want there to be some greater distinctions between arcane and divine magic for my campaign. What would be some good ways of doing that?
In what sense do you want them to be different? Thematically, mechanically, visually, conceptually?
In what sense do you want them to be different? Thematically, mechanically, visually, conceptually?
Mechanically. In concept, the two magics are very different from one another, but once you enter the realm of game mechanics, the two become the same. I'm looking for ways to further the distinction to the mechanical level of gameplay.
Well, there's already a few mechanical differences. Spell failure and spell preparation, at least.
Beyond that, you could alter the components required for certain spells. For instance, say an arcane Fireball requires forked fingers, the verbal command 'Kizmah!', and a pinch of guano, while a divine Fireball requires a holy symbol, the word 'Gorah!', and an open palm.
Beyond that, the only things you could really modify would be the effects of the spells themselves or the saves they target.
The spell components are a very interesting idea, I like the idea of divine casters requiring the holy symbol.
As for spell effects and saves, what could be some changes there? I was thinking something like specific spell resistances (arcane and divine), detect arcane magic, detect divine magic, etc.
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I want there to be some greater distinctions between arcane and divine magic for my campaign. What would be some good ways of doing that?
It really depends how far your willing to go to make a difference. Divine magic has things like healing which most arcane magics can't replicate. If it was me i would go through all the spell lists and make a bigger distinction about what can and can't be used.
For example,
i would remove all negative and positive energy spells from arcane spell lists and leave/add them to the divine spell lists.
I would prob do the same for most of the elemental spells, but putting them as arcane only.
hrm.. what else...
maybe make all divine spells do divine damage (bypass spell resist?)
i guess i would also remove all spell components for divine spells (other than a holy symbol is needed for them all)
hrm, remove all alignment type spells including the ability to summon extreme outsiders that are good or evil aligned such as angels and demon/devils from the arcane list... although that may be going abit to far.
There are lots of things you can do. Just gotta think about what kind of differences you want then start tearing them apart :)
just a few things off the top of my head.. and by the way i don't claim any of these are balanced.. most of them aren't :)
Add slight drawbacks, but ones that keep with the theme you want.
For example:
Divine: casters receive a +1 caster level to cast any spell that is part of their diety's domain (even if it's not a domain the caster selected) or if they cast a spell within their church (+2 if both), but receive a -1 caster level for non-domain spells (in other words, most spells).
Arcane: casting arcane spells actually warps reality, something that mortals were not meant to do. Anyone within 5 ft of the caster (including the caster) must make a WILL save (DC=10 + spell level) or be sickened for 1 round by reality warping around them.
OR
Divine: Contacting your diety leaves you distracted, giving you a -5 to Perception and Sense Motive checks for 1 round after spellcasting.
Arcane: Bending reality to your will leaves you dizzy, giving you a -5 to Acrobatics and Ride checks for 1 round after spellcasting.
OR whatever.
EDIT: You could go the Dragonlance route. A Wizard's robe changes color to match their alignment. A Cleric's holy symbol generally shows their alignment to anyone nearby, so this is not needed for them.
One is gifted the other earned ... and the gift can be taken away. Its based on serving the best interests of supernatural entities.
If a priest of Sarenrae was consistently a real douchebag he would find he had NO magical ability.
Arcane casters dont have that issue... though some debate could rage over if Bards and Sorcerers (idiot savants they are) 'earned' their magic.
My campaign follows the Eberron rule of "the Gods don't really care what you do in there name". More specifically, the Gods don't even grant magic, but the personal faith of the casters.
Various situational modifiers might help distinguish the two in an easy way - it's easy enough to conceive of "hallowed ground" which makes divine casting easier or harder. Ley lines or other "places of eldritch power" could similarly boost or hinder arcane casting.
I ran a campaign once where the two were distinguished based on components. Divine casting was always verbal and usually had somatic components. Arcane always had material components and usually verbal. That at least made things feel different, though it's not much more than a cosmetic change.
Another option would be to make it so the magic does not interact with each other. A divine caster can't counter an arcane's spells and vice versus. Break spellcraft into 2 different skills. Give spell resistance a divine or arcane component. So a flame strike would cook a SR 25(arcane) foe while a fireball would bounce.
This would require a lot of work to set up, and cause a host of balance issues, but would make it so there was a difference in the types of magic.
An easier way to make a difference would be to just go down the spell lists and take every spell that shows up on both sides of the fence and restrict it to one or the other.
I like to cast my divine spells by specificlally calilng on the god. "(Gods name here) Commands you to sit" (command spell) etc
For example,
i would remove all negative and positive energy spells from arcane spell lists and leave/add them to the divine spell lists.
...which would make the witch (themed, among other things, as a Healer without resorting to divine magic) very sad.
This is an idea I've kicked around before:
'Arcane' literally means 'secret', 'hidden', or 'obscure'. You learn arcane magic by learning a formula, and understanding the true nature of the universe just a little bit better than other people. So if a Witch can set her knowledge to paper, there shouldn't be any reason a wizard can't copy it into his spellbook.
Under this idea, throw all the arcane spells into a big pile. Divine casters still have "class" lists, but arcane spellcasters just have one big list, that they all share.
If you take this route, it's probably best to emphasize the divide by making all spell-completion and spell-trigger items care about arcane/divine, same as scrolls do.
Or, take away scrolls, wands, and staves from divine casters entirely. (Because they shouldn't be able to store away their God's magic for someone else, not as devout, to use.)
Or make divine spell completion items aligned to religion, because a divine scroll would be a written prayer imbued with magic, and that captured scroll praying to Asmodeus isn't going to do a cleric of Desna much good.
Break spellcraft into 2 different skills.
That's actually close to what I do for my homebrew campaign. Pathfinder kept the Spellcraft skill and got rid of Concentration (from 3.5). I did the opposite, because I felt that there should be at least 1 skill for every ability (no skills currently relate to Constitution).
To fill the gap left by not having a Spellcraft skill, I use Knowledge (Arcana) for Arcane spells, and Knowledge (Religion) for Divine spells.
An easier way to make a difference would be to just go down the spell lists and take every spell that shows up on both sides of the fence and restrict it to one or the other.
Actually, that sounds like a lot of work to me.
I use Knowledge (Arcana) for Arcane spells, and Knowledge (Religion) for Divine spells.
I was thinking of doing exactly that. Are there any problems to eliminating Spellcraft?
The problems to eliminating Spellcraft would be where it pertains to crafting or identifying magic items.
I was thinking of doing exactly that. Are there any problems to eliminating Spellcraft?
I use Knowledge (Arcana) for Arcane spells, and Knowledge (Religion) for Divine spells.
No. No problems at all. Every time a book mentions "Spellcraft", simply replace the word with "Knowledge". Done.
The only "difficulty" would be with concentration, and only IF you use my home-brew rule about adding a concentration skill (you wouldn't have to, the knowledge skills work fine without them).
If you add a concentration skill, keep in mind that concentration checks will get easier (players will put skill points into it instead of adding their caster level, but they would get a +3 bonus for having a class skill). You may want to increase the difficulty by +1/spell level. Or you could just leave it as is and let the players cast their spells easier. OR, you could avoid it altogether and just use the concentration rules as written. Since the issue doesn't come up often, the "deadliest" character is a fighter, and they are burning skill points on concentration, I just let my players make concentration checks slightly easier.
Either way, it doesn't affect the substitution of knowledge for spellcraft.
Give spell resistance a divine or arcane component. So a flame strike would cook a SR 25(arcane) foe while a fireball would bounce.
If I did this, what would I do for monsters with SR? I guess I could just change it so they only have one, say a Demon has SR (divine) and an Iron Golem would only be immune to arcane magic. But what if I wanted a dragon to have both? Would I half it? Say if it was originally SR 20, would I make it SR 10 (arcane) and (divine)? Or just go SR 20 (arcane) and (divine)?
I would remove all negative and positive energy spells from arcane spell lists and leave/add them to the divine spell lists.
I would prob do the same for most of the elemental spells, but putting them as arcane only.
I would be careful with these two suggestions. You would need a reason for why only divine could manipulate negative and positive energy and witches couldn't, despite their connections to the spirit world, and don't forget that druids are technically divine as well, and can legitimately use elemental magic. The problem that I increasingly have with the divine/arcane split is that there are enough of each, it's really hard to pigeon hole divine as doing this kind of spell and arcane this other kind.
If you want to differentiate them, I would say really highlight the differences between needing the divine focus vs the material components, and perhaps expand on it, as well the the preparation requirements. Divine casters only need an hour of prayer/meditation, while arcane casters require actual rest, or at least quiet, in addition to that hour of preparation. On the divine side, I would also encourage clerics and oracles to focus on spells that reflect their deity/divine sponsor and not automatically prepare cure light wounds and the other common cleric spells simply because that's what most people use, and reward them for doing so somehow.
Instead of trying to create new differences, I would say work with, and possibly enhance, the ones that already exist, but most people usually gloss over. You're less likely to confuse new players that way. Encourage all casters to find a theme and stick with it, perhaps helping out by making certain spells normally unavailable available to that particular theme.
One way is arcane = prepared, divine = spontaneous (or vice versa).
The simplest way might be to remove Divine and Arcane's ability to directly interact with each other. No countering or dispelling arcane with divine spells and vice versea.
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Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread- most of it makes me cringe. If I'm reading this correctly you want to do the following: make arcane and divine magic mechanically different without rewriting the entire system. By modifying spell lists you're taking away the uniqueness of specific classes. Further, by changing one to prepared and the other to spontaneous you've actually dulled more than half of the spellcasting classes in the books. So instead, here are a few house rules and system changes I've seen over the years that might help you:
- Arcane and divine magic are different! Add +5 to the DC to identify spells outside of your paradigm. Characters capable of arcane & divine magic, or non-casters, don't suffer this penalty.
- Creatures with SR have a "preference" to arcane or divine, being treated as 2 points higher for one and 2 points lower for the other (essentially a 4 point difference). Go with your gut on this one; outsiders are more resistant to arcane, while aberrations are more resistant to divine, etc.
- Unique penalties for arcane/divine magic such as taboos, skill penalties, save penalties, kick-backs, etc. In the scarred lands setting arcane casters generated a great amount of heat when they cast. This made them doubly susceptible to arcane spell failure without fire immunity, but also made them resistant to cold effects.
- Physical modifications that mark you as a caster. Divine casters could become more like personifications of their deity/divine concept, while arcanists could take on unusual deformities (odd colored eyes, unique hair colors, scales, glowing fingernails, etc.) to reflect their rampant manipulation of reality.
- As previously suggested, required foci/verbal commands is a good idea.
Try looking over the some of the old psionics books. They tend to discuss how to treat psionics in your game, and a lot of it is relevant to this right here. Building on that scarred lands concept, they actually broke magic down into three categories: arcane, divine, and primal. Arcane (wizards/sorcerers) took their magic from the universe through blood or study. Divine (clerics/paladins/monks) were granted their magic from the gods. Primal (bards/druids/rangers) gained their magic through attuning themselves to a specific concept. It was a neat idea.
Here is another idea I've toyed with, but never implemented.
Tie specific spellcasting classes to the worship of specific dieties.
For example:
Paladin = deity of justice
Ranger = deity of hunting
Cleric = deity of life (or death)
I had a 6 deity pantheon in mind and thought about taking it a step further, and crossed off spells from spell lists that I thought were opposed to the deity’s theme. This is easier to do if you can add extra spells from non-core books, like the APG. The more books with spells you have available, the better clerics become (since they instantly have access to all of the new cleric spells), so I thought this was a decent way to keep the power creep in check.
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I actually went a bit further and started (almost) rewriting the magic system. Basically...
*There are four types of "magic": Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Spirit. *Each uses a certain ability score, regardless of class: Arcane -> Int, Divine -> Wis, Psionic -> Cha, Spirit -> Con.
*Each type has four classes under the heading: a prepared 9-level caster, a spontaneous 9-level caster, a 6-level caster, and a 4-level caster.
*Each has their own spell list (for the most part completely separate), that all classes under that heading have access to.
One of the campaigns a friend of mine ran once differentiated by using system variances. Divine spells had the unearthed arcana recharge system (spells could be cast any number of times but depending on the spell and the level of the spell it couldn't be cast again for a certain amount of time). In addition arcane spells used spell points. So they were mechanically differentiated in that arcane magic used up your force of will, where as the ability to cast a divine spell would restore itself after a certain amount of time.
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The simplest way might be to remove Divine and Arcane's ability to directly interact with each other. No countering or dispelling arcane with divine spells and vice versea.
Definitely agreed. The Mana Wastes is an area in Golarion which illustrates why there needs to be more separation between the two. I can see arcane magic being warped/negated/whatever, but I don't think it should affect divine magic.
I actually went a bit further and started (almost) rewriting the magic system. Basically...
*There are four types of "magic": Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Spirit. *Each uses a certain ability score, regardless of class: Arcane -> Int, Divine -> Wis, Psionic -> Cha, Spirit -> Con.
*Each type has four classes under the heading: a prepared 9-level caster, a spontaneous 9-level caster, a 6-level caster, and a 4-level caster.
*Each has their own spell list (for the most part completely separate), that all classes under that heading have access to.
I like the smell of what you are cooking. Would you mind to elaborate a bit further?