Maybe have it pass through the monster grape-vine that his character is blessed by the gods, and to attack him is folly. And simply have things ignore him. His attacks do damage, his spells work(and you will roll fairly against him) but things simply shun him.
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Players are not the only ones who can mature....
Yeah, I was a certainly a good DM before I joined The Boards back in '06 but no doubt -- the last half decade of discussing gaming and DMing on the Boards here has dramatically made me a better DM and gamer.
That's probably the biggest thing I get from Paizo, more than the APs, Modules, novels and occassional Scenario and Campaign Setting product.
Nonetheless, the Thread really got my attention and I've since been more honest on Saves for my monsters.Players are not the only ones who can mature into a genuine enjoyment of risk. Your story sounds much like my own.
As a young GM, it was all about my story. My story was sacrosanct, and the dice were just smoke and mirrors to add a sense of risk.
As a less-young GM, I've decided that the ability of the dice to make me surprised by my own story is the most worthy aspect of the whole hobby.
I also went through a similar growth as a DM. But I learned to be happy for the players when the dice fall their way. NPC' are like Lays potato chips. Kill all you want, I'll make more. :-)
I roll behind the screens mostly so I can fudge to avoid killing a player. Sometimes I roll in front of them, but that is for dramatic effect when it is a big save that may turn the tide of the battle. I tend to roll crappy as a DM anyway - but I just accept it. When you make hundreds of rolls, some will be good and some bad.
My hope was that the player would eventually notice my reaction to his cheating, and then he would start rolling more realistically. Then I would stop too and we would go back to normal.
But I see the wisdom of the boards, so I will introduce a house rule. It won't go over well, but no one will quit over it.
Players are not the only ones who can mature....Yeah, I was a certainly a good DM before I joined The Boards back in '06 but no doubt -- the last half decade of discussing gaming and DMing on the Boards here has dramatically made me a better DM and gamer.
That's probably the biggest thing I get from Paizo, more than the APs, Modules, novels and occassional Scenario and Campaign Setting product.
I regard that as the true purpose of these boards. But you'd scarcely know to look at them ;)
Dren,
You're all in your 40's, and this guy has been cheating for years.
Why?
Does he think the adventures are so unfair that he thinks he has to cheat in order to keep up with the game?
Does he just not respect any of the other players? Does he want to be better than they are, so he has his PC make all the saves and rolls that theirs can't?
Are the stakes too high, from his perspective? Is he afraid that if he blows a single save, his character will die, and he'll never have fun again?
Does he cheat in other ways? If you're running a commercially-available adventure, does he buy it and read ahead? Does he use out-of-character knowledge to his PC's advantage?
I don't think it is any of those things. I think he does it because he can. Because to call him on his rolling method would be to call him a cheater. Without actual proof of the cheating, he will be entitled to act offended by the accusation.
I try to audit all of the player character sheets, so I don't think he is cheating in other ways. I find the occasional mistake, but it is primarily the "never failing a save" thing that irks me.
Actually I have seen transparent non-colored 20+ dice crayoned before, and it looks Ok, when it is done right.
What we like about thes dice is that they look like gems. Especially some of the colors like peach, light green, or red. To color in the numbers would change that look.
When we played in our early 20's, one of the members of my group (I DM'd) made up a set of fake d6's that had extra pips on some of the faces. He didn't just make up one or two, but five or six of them. We were all friends (had been since elementary school)...so we called him on it. We jokingly dug through his dice bag "in search of the evidence!" and pulled them out. We congratulated him on doing such a good job and laughed it off but cajoled him at the same time. We remained friends.
Point being, if you're friends you should be able to confront him about your suspicions in a respectful (if not fun) way. Clearly I don't know your relationship with this person, but it does seem reasonable to assume that you could talk as friends about how "lucky" his saves have been.
If you'll allow me another anecdote, though, to the counterpoint. One of my friends played a barbarian who was notorious for making Will saves. Over the course of 3 or 4 years of playing the character I don't think he failed one (granted, he wasn't making them very often, but still). He just rolled high on those particular rolls. Better to be lucky than good, we sometimes say! /salute
Dren,
You're all in your 40's, and this guy has been cheating for years.
Why?
Does he think the adventures are so unfair that he thinks he has to cheat in order to keep up with the game?
Does he just not respect any of the other players? Does he want to be better than they are, so he has his PC make all the saves and rolls that theirs can't?
Are the stakes too high, from his perspective? Is he afraid that if he blows a single save, his character will die, and he'll never have fun again?
Does he cheat in other ways? If you're running a commercially-available adventure, does he buy it and read ahead? Does he use out-of-character knowledge to his PC's advantage?
I don't think it is any of those things. I think he does it because he can. Because to call him on his rolling method would be to call him a cheater. Without actual proof of the cheating, he will be entitled to act offended by the accusation.
I try to audit all of the player character sheets, so I don't think he is cheating in other ways. I find the occasional mistake, but it is primarily the "never failing a save" thing that irks me.
If you want evidence, keep notes. I had a dm who NEVER allowed a monster to fail a single target effect of a spell or supernatural ability. Never. If many monsters were hit, some would fail, some wouldnt, but any single target effect would be saved against. So I started taking notes. Aug 6th - charm person, pass, sleep pass, etc etc. A few months later when I showed him the evidence of 57 consecutive successful saves against single target effects, I didnt need to call him a cheat, I just had to show him the list. Things changed shortly after that.
So go ahead and as the dm, keep notes of what he rolls. After a few sessions you should be able to show him the statistical improbability of his absurdly high rolls. At that point he'll either have to give up his favorite dice as non-random, or admit that he is fudging his rolls and hopefully stop doing it.
When we played in our early 20's, one of the members of my group (I DM'd) made up a set of fake d6's that had extra pips on some of the faces. He didn't just make up one or two, but five or six of them. We were all friends (had been since elementary school)...so we called him on it. We jokingly dug through his dice bag "in search of the evidence!" and pulled them out. We congratulated him on doing such a good job and laughed it off but cajoled him at the same time. We remained friends.
Point being, if you're friends you should be able to confront him about your suspicions in a respectful (if not fun) way. Clearly I don't know your relationship with this person, but it does seem reasonable to assume that you could talk as friends about how "lucky" his saves have been.
If you'll allow me another anecdote, though, to the counterpoint. One of my friends played a barbarian who was notorious for making Will saves. Over the course of 3 or 4 years of playing the character I don't think he failed one (granted, he wasn't making them very often, but still). He just rolled high on those particular rolls. Better to be lucky than good, we sometimes say! /salute
I have a similar story. Remember the days when we rolled init with a d10 and we wanted to roll low? - I forget which edition that was.
I had this one d10 that always rolled low. It was so lucky, that I only rolled it a few times per game. Evenutally at a game, I told my friends about it. I said - I feel almost guilty for rolling this die, it is so lucky.
My friend looked at the die, and noticed that it only had the numbers 1 to 5 on it. Man, I felt stupid. That was more than 10 years ago, but they still make fun of me today. :-)
Hi Dren,
Just to offer my own two cents -- I had this problem a while back with a former group -- my cheater almost never failed saves and seemed to never roll less than 15 unless someone was watching him.
I increased the difficulty of the game to compensate, and all that happened was that the rest of the party starting fudging too -- especially since they knew the "prime" cheater was doing it.
Getting caught up in an arms race just doesn't help anyone.
[Having said that, I do think having a few enemies who are ray-masters or touch-masters and pound on him with magic that doesn't allow a save isn't a bad thing, but that's beside the point, and shouldn't be overdone.]
To solve the issue, I basically started the next session of the game with the observation that some fudging was clearly happening without any examples or directing the suspicion, and then framing it as happening because the players wanted their characters to be heroes -- and introduced a Hero Point mechanic to allow them to do just that - with the caveat that from that point on, dice rolling had to be confirmed and that anyone caught fudging would be nailed for it.
It's just my experience, but the fudging stopped, I got to go back to throwing encounters that made sense at them, and nobody felt singled out or accused -- and they got to feel like heroes by gaining the ability to attempt crazy things because of the extra oomph the hero point dice got them (the system we were using at the time allowed you to buy extra dice with points if you declared before the roll, but with diminishing return [First point was +d12, second was +d8, third was +d4]).
All in all, I consider it win-win. That campaign ended a few months later due to inparty fighting, but I still play with 3 of the original 5 a decade later.
[And yes, I do agree that some characters just seem to be very lucky in their dice rolling -- I myself had a character years ago (in a different system) who was notorious for his ability to hit almost anything reliably in combat, regardless of how high its' defense scores were (and, in fact, usually hit well enough to bypass the armour of his target) -- and would then strike for near-minimum damage. This happened several times per combat and only got worse when he gained multiple attacks. Not only was he laughed at as being the mater of the paper-cut, we use that character's name to describe the act of critically hitting for minimum damage even now]
Hi Dren,
Just to offer my own two cents -- I had this problem a while back with a former group -- my cheater almost never failed saves and seemed to never roll less than 15 unless someone was watching him.
I increased the difficulty of the game to compensate, and all that happened was that the rest of the party starting fudging too -- especially since they knew the "prime" cheater was doing it.
Getting caught up in an arms race just doesn't help anyone.
[Having said that, I do think having a few enemies who are ray-masters or touch-masters and pound on him with magic that doesn't allow a save isn't a bad thing, but that's beside the point, and shouldn't be overdone.]
To solve the issue, I basically started the next session of the game with the observation that some fudging was clearly happening without any examples or directing the suspicion, and then framing it as happening because the players wanted their characters to be heroes -- and introduced a Hero Point mechanic to allow them to do just that - with the caveat that from that point on, dice rolling had to be confirmed and that anyone caught fudging would be nailed for it.
It's just my experience, but the fudging stopped, I got to go back to throwing encounters that made sense at them, and nobody felt singled out or accused -- and they got to feel like heroes by gaining the ability to attempt crazy things because of the extra oomph the hero point dice got them (the system we were using at the time allowed you to buy extra dice with points if you declared before the roll, but with diminishing return [First point was +d12, second was +d8, third was +d4]).
All in all, I consider it win-win. That campaign ended a few months later due to inparty fighting, but I still play with 3 of the original 5 a decade later.
[And yes, I do agree that some characters just seem to be very lucky in their dice rolling -- I myself had a character years ago (in a different system) who was notorious for his ability to hit almost anything reliably in...
I am glad to see that at least some people have reacted the way I wanted to. I was starting to feel like an ogre. :-)
But overall I have been convinced - two wrongs don't make a right. I think it was my DMly pride making want to take revenge for the cheating. Even if it was in a sneaky passive aggressive way.
But mainly I don't want to punish the other player for the crimes of one. My introducing the "roll in the open" house rule will cause a bit of an uproar, but I think the game will survive.
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Nobody thinks that you're an ogre. I think that you are too nice. Way way too nice. I play with my friends. Obviously, since i am 24, i do not know them as long as you know your friends, but i can talk to my players in a mature way.
I caught one of my players cheating. I kept a record of his rolls in a small notebook for a month. Then i showed him and simply asked him if this is possible, not telling him that it was his character. He looked it up and said:"No way, the dude must be cheating". Then i told him that it was him. I told him to stop it or stop playing with me, as it was agitating other players. He agreed, and stopped.
You can try that.
You cannot walk on eggshells for this. That is a wrong way to do it. If he has been your friend for some 25-30 years, and he starts behaving like a spoiled brat, pouting and being resentful when you call on his cheating, i would ask him if he is acting his age.
I mean you all are in your forties for the sake of the gods.
We use the dice buddy system. All rolls made have to be visible by at least one other player (With the exception of DMs rolls).
I have a similar story. Remember the days when we rolled init with a d10 and we wanted to roll low? - I forget which edition that was.
I had this one d10 that always rolled low. It was so lucky, that I only rolled it a few times per game. Evenutally at a game, I told my friends about it. I said - I feel almost guilty for rolling this die, it is so lucky.
My friend looked at the die, and noticed that it only had the numbers 1 to 5 on it. Man, I felt stupid. That was more than 10 years ago, but they still make fun of me today. :-)
I think that was 1st if not also 2nd edition? Yes, going first meant rolling low on the d10 and having a quick weapon (ahh, weapon speed, how I do NOT miss thee!) or low-level spell. Good times.
Good luck with the cheater. Engage your other friends around the table to keep them honest as well. It doesn't have to be 100% of the time, but if the cheater notices that others are interested in what he rolls the chances are high that he will change his behavior. /salute
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Dren, buddy: stop making excuses for your cheating player and be honest with him -- or instill a house rule that says everybody has to use high contrast dice.
Address the problem by picking one of those two solutions, or admit that solving this problem really isn't that important to you. Those are the only options that I see, everything else is just condoning the behavior in one form or another.
I am glad to see that at least some people have reacted the way I wanted to. I was starting to feel like an ogre. :-)
Well, to be fair, I was adjusting the CRs of encounters to try to make things actually challenging for the party -- but you're certainly not being an Ogre in this.
Like I said, when I talked to some of the players, it seemed that they wanted to be "heroic", which is why they did it -- which was why a Hero Point system worked well. :)
I can empathize with your problem. You don't want to make a big deal and you don't want to offend or embarrass your friend, you just want it to stop.
What it boils down to is how much does it bother you. It seems most likely that dealing with the situation in any manner will involve at least some level of uncomfortable confrontation.
Being an adult and politely asking him to scale back his rather obvious fudging doesn't guarantee that he is going to be an adult about it. And that is the op main worry. It seems to satisfy yourself you are going to have at least some level of discomfort by bringing it up in some fashion
The least confrontational approach would probably be a polite blanket statement that a little too much fudging is going on and while some isn't bad, repetitive fudging can take the fun out for others.
As I've gamed with same people for years I can understand the awkwardness of confronting a longtime friend with fudging his rolls. It seems that if you're going to get some satisfaction you are going to have go outside your comfort zone.
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I've been GMing for over 30 years, and once upon a time, I had a dice cheat.
Not a "misreader", like the OP's player. An honest-to-Odin lying cheat.
First of all, this guy's character sheets were all in pencil, usually with ungodly modifiers instead of the more usual stats. He was seen by other players changing the values on his character sheet st the table while playing after the group had a saving throw to make.
This guy also had the reflexes to "flip" the d20 with his finger after the die was rolled to a better roll if he saw that the d20 roll was going to be too low for his tastes. The numbers were clearly visible.
The guy was also the type to grief other party members, steal their stuff, etc. The other players made it an issue of "Deal with this clown or we all walk."
I warned him about his conduct directly. He denied that he ever cheated. I told him to keep his hand clear once he had rolled the die every time he rolled the die, or he was going to be kicked from my game.
He denied ever intentionally cheating, claimed his "flipping the dice" was a neurological disorder. A couple of his friends told me that was another crock.
The next session at the table was tense. He somehow stopped himself from flipping the die . . .but during the final showdown with the BBEG, he did it. I caught his wrist as he reached for the die to flip it. I kicked him out of my game for good right then and there.
That was over ten years ago. Today I might have given him a greater benefit of the doubt because I've learned a lot in the decade since then about dealing with people. Still, he very well-known in our little gaming community for doing these things all the time.
In the case of the OP's player: I would ask the player, nicely, to please use an opaque die with numbers legible at least one seat away. If the player did not have one, I'd gift him with such a die. If after gifting, the player declined to use such a die, I'd ask him to take his character elsewhere.
Yes, it's a game . . . but if dice are used to determine what happens, it's only fair to not cheat the random number gods.
You might not want to do anything. You've been friends for 20 years. Don't risk a friendship over something silly like lying about dice rolls. If it really was a problem, it would have taken less than 20 years to come up.
Are the other players having less fun because this guy always makes his saves and attack rolls and skill checks or whatever? If it is bothering people, then maybe this needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, let it go.
I know cheating at dice isn't ideal, but it may be less disruptive than hurting people's feelings and stuff.
I play with a girl who is extraordinarily lucky. Her average roll is closer to a 17 or 18 than a 10 or 11. And she doesn't cheat. Her husband is the opposite...he can roll four 2s in a row....in the same fight...against the same target. I even designed a warlock for him in a 3.5 game that had multiple ways of only needing a 2 to hit AC 10 (Devil Sight + Hungry Darkness, Improved Feint + Hideous Blow, Walk Unseen, etc. etc.).
I also happen to be really good at skill checks, but pretty bad at attack rolls.....and I use the same dice for those rolls! My initiative rolls are usually below average, and saves a little above average, but not as drastic as my attack and skill checks.
But in a group endeavor like role-playing, the cheater is only cheating himself. Failing a roll can be interesting in role-playing, and lead to fun and interesting things that wouldn't happen if you always roll a natural 20.
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Failing a roll can be interesting in role-playing, and lead to fun and interesting things that wouldn't happen if you always roll a natural 20.
This is the lesson I took from my experience. After the experience with my cheat, I worked to make failure of a die roll result in more fun that a successful one. Example: You need to climb up a wall to escape something really bad. Character fails the climb roll. Instead of falling to his doom, I have him make a check. He slips a bit. Make another check. Fail that one, and you slip and fall. Make another roll...succeed and you grab a rock barely holding on by your fingernails. That made for a tension enhancing experience where failing a die roll is not fatal.
Another one: Roll a fumble in combat. You lose your weapon, which flies out of your hand and lands in a strange spot, possibly one threatened by the bad guy. Or you *hit* the guy instead . . . but your weapon is lodged in his armor and you have to make a combat maneuver to get it back.
On this note: If failure teaches more than success, then shouldn't the game's experience systems reflect that?
I am looking for other suggestions of ways to balance things. Trust me that no one in our group wants me to confront him about this.
I would talk to the player about using a different die that you can read from across the table.
There's a guy I used to play with who likewise had uncanny luck. Rolled more 20's than should have been possible. The part that's amazing is I know he's not cheating, unless there's a way you can roll a die that makes it land on 20 more often than normal. Any die, mind you. Not always his own. There are such players and they make fearsome DMs.
I'm actually one of those people. While DM-ing I've had players hand me their dice when complaining about being slaughtered and rolled a handful of 20's
As I player I've done the same.One player, a matematician, actually borrowed my dice for a week to run a statistics experiment with his calasses to test wheter the individual dice had an increased possibility of rolling a 20.
It happens.Rare. But it happens.
I understand Dren's position. It is all well and good when you are a mercenary and play with mercenaries solely, to call somebody a wimp for not calling out the potential cheater. Much harder when there is a political element involved.
By political element, I am talking about dealing with an old friend who has lately changed his stripes, or, as was the case for me not too long ago, the boyfriend of an old friend who has stayed past his welcome, where the whole situation between them and the rest of us was delicate.
Honesty is the best policy. But it's not the only one. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to finagle these things.
In our case, I let the most reliable players, the ones I trusted most, know what I suspected was going on. Now involved, they helped to monitor this player, keeping an eye on his rolls and involving themselves - in a friendly way - in the outcome. Two things made the player come around: the fact he was being watched was undoubtedly a help. But I think the camaraderie he felt with the others keeping him involved helped him to make better, fairer decisions. You don't want to cheat people who are genuinely engaging you in the game. You just want to share the event with them, for better or worse.
You might not want to do anything. You've been friends for 20 years. Don't risk a friendship over something silly like lying about dice rolls. If it really was a problem, it would have taken less than 20 years to come up.
Are the other players having less fun because this guy always makes his saves and attack rolls and skill checks or whatever? If it is bothering people, then maybe this needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, let it go.
I know cheating at dice isn't ideal, but it may be less disruptive than hurting people's feelings and stuff.
I play with a girl who is extraordinarily lucky. Her average roll is closer to a 17 or 18 than a 10 or 11. And she doesn't cheat. Her husband is the opposite...he can roll four 2s in a row....in the same fight...against the same target. I even designed a warlock for him in a 3.5 game that had multiple ways of only needing a 2 to hit AC 10 (Devil Sight + Hungry Darkness, Improved Feint + Hideous Blow, Walk Unseen, etc. etc.).
I also happen to be really good at skill checks, but pretty bad at attack rolls.....and I use the same dice for those rolls! My initiative rolls are usually below average, and saves a little above average, but not as drastic as my attack and skill checks.
But in a group endeavor like role-playing, the cheater is only cheating himself. Failing a roll can be interesting in role-playing, and lead to fun and interesting things that wouldn't happen if you always roll a natural 20.
It does bother the other players a bit, but not enough that any of them have ever asked me (or any other GM from past campaigns) to do anything about it.
Yesterday I asked another GM in our group about this. He has a long track record of long lasting campaigns, so he has a lot of experience with this player. He basically said it bothers him too, but not enough to introduce a house rule about how we roll, or what dice we use.
I have to emphasize again that telling the players how to roll, or what to roll will be highly unusual, and it will not go over well with my group. I can't change 20+ years of the honor system and rolling whatever die you want without some kind of explanation. It will be obvious that I am doing it to prevent cheating.
I don't think confronting this player is going to work. He is not going to admit to this. And the only way to catch him will be to watch him or have others players watch him, and it will be noticed.
So he is basically going to say "Oh so I am too lucky with the dice, so I must be cheating, huh?" And it will go downhill from there.
Perhaps I can start keeping track of his rolls for a while. But even that will be noticed. I don't normally write down the players rolls, so they will see me making notations that I did not make before. Not to mention that I will have to do it for everyone’s rolls so he does not think it is about him.
You could announce that you are having trouble seeing everyone's dice, and buy one of those large D20's for each person to roll during their turn.
Or just by each person an individualized small D20 so that you can see the numbers better.
[Perhaps I can start keeping track of his rolls for a while. But even that will be noticed. I don't normally write down the players rolls, so they will see me making notations that I did not make before. Not to mention that I will have to do it for everyone’s rolls so he does not think it is about him.Why bother? You've already said that you're not going to confront him, and you're not going to make changes that are lampshading his behavior.
Since you've chosen that the best solution is to just leave it be, your best coping solution is to not even bother looking and focus on the more pleasant aspects of the game. Tracking his dice behavior will serve nothing more than to rub salt in the wound of your frustration.
Yes I guess you are right. It is easy for me to say I will let it go now, but it is hard to ignore that a PC ever fails a save. Since it is not worth having a conflict with my friend about it, I should leave it alone.
Still, I feel like I should be entitled to balance the scales in some way. I won't, but I really want to direct some special attention to his character.
Perhaps I can start keeping track of his rolls for a while. But even that will be noticed. I don't normally write down the players rolls, so they will see me making notations that I did not make before. Not to mention that I will have to do it for everyone’s rolls so he does not think it is about him.
Do you not use a DM screen? How would the players have any idea of what you are writing down? Just dont tell them what you are making notes of. For me at least I am constantly writing something, whether its crossing off npc spells used, adjusting hit points, or just noting down what has or hasnt been found/triggered/explored.
First of all don't discount the fact that he might extremely lucky (i find highly unlikely from what you have told us but still let's not disregard that possibility).
Secondly, does he always roll with the same die? If that's the case it might just be a very badly balanced die (factory fault).
Now to advice:
Since you don't want to risk your relotionship with him by telling him what you think (i don't think that this a good thing but i can understand it) and all of the people of your table want to use clear dice (by the way i don't like them at all, i like opaque high contrast dice myself) then the only solution i can see is to do what others have suggested already and record his rolls and then confront him with actual data.
To provide an anecdote of mine:
The group i am in also has a die cheater, it doesn't really bother us because that particular player is so bad at building his character and making good use of his powers/abilities and actions in the game that even with his cheating the outcome of most scenarios doesn't really change.
One other player is just very lucky, his rolls with ANY die are above average, without doing actual experiments i have seen that his average is around 13, but mine is around 8 so it kinda balance out for the party.
I think it's been mentioned before:
Sit down with the other players, and suggest this:
One of them will fudge a roll or outright cheat. Another one will call him out on it.
Then you have a reason to implement some changes to make cheating harder.
Advantage: The real cheater is allowed to save face, and since everyone knows it was an act, the guy that was "caught" cheating won't feel any backlash either.
I think it's been mentioned before:
Sit down with the other players, and suggest this:
One of them will fudge a roll or outright cheat. Another one will call him out on it.
Then you have a reason to implement some changes to make cheating harder.Advantage: The real cheater is allowed to save face, and since everyone knows it was an act, the guy that was "caught" cheating won't feel any backlash either.
Also, make sure they are good actors. And good liars.
And be prepared to live with the consequences of this lie.
Yeah, I don't recommend subterfuge.
For me to issue a house rule about which dice we use, or how they are colored in would be highly unusual, and the reasons would be obvious.
What does he think of you getting up and walking around the table to see, every time he roll the dice?
Seriously, just talk to the guy in a non-accusing way. Tell him there's some concern about his clear dice and unwillingness to let anyone see his rolls, and ask if he could maybe use a different set of dice for a while.
Or, if you're afraid of confrontation and more sneakily inclined, buy him a set of really swank dice (like, say, this awesome set of brushed steel dice) for his birthday or something, that incidentally are not clear and easier for you to spot.
I think it's been mentioned before:
Sit down with the other players, and suggest this:
One of them will fudge a roll or outright cheat. Another one will call him out on it.
Then you have a reason to implement some changes to make cheating harder.Advantage: The real cheater is allowed to save face, and since everyone knows it was an act, the guy that was "caught" cheating won't feel any backlash either.
Also, make sure they are good actors. And good liars.
And be prepared to live with the consequences of this lie.
Yeah, I don't recommend subterfuge.
Even the Evil Lincoln is still Honest Abe. :-) Sorry I had to make the joke.
Seriously I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see this as so black and white.
"Dude, you can't possibly be rolling that well."
"What? I am so lucky that I must be cheating? That is messed up man"
"Look, just make the rolls where someone can see them, OK?"
"Yeah OK, whatever. I can't believe you don't trust me."
But you don't trust him.
For me to issue a house rule about which dice we use, or how they are colored in would be highly unusual, and the reasons would be obvious.What does he think of you getting up and walking around the table to see, every time he roll the dice?
Seriously, just talk to the guy in a non-accusing way. Tell him there's some concern about his clear dice and unwillingness to let anyone see his rolls, and ask if he could maybe use a different set of dice for a while.
Or, if you're afraid of confrontation and more sneakily inclined, buy him a set of really swank dice (like, say, this awesome set of brushed steel dice) for his birthday or something, that incidentally are not clear and easier for you to spot.
I understand that using different dice may seem like a simple solution. But it is not.
We all have hundreds of dice, and we use whichever we feel like as long as they are normal. None of our GM's have ever tried to dictate which dice we can use. As a player I would not like it either.
We have a player who use really big dice - no one else likes them. We think they are goofy, loud, and they dent the table.
Telling him there is a concern about his dice is the same thing as calling him a cheater. When I walk around to look at the dice, I do it to everyone, and I playfully call it "jinxing the roll".
But you don't trust him.
True. But without concrete proof, I can't back up my accuastion. If I can't catch him doing it, I will need to record the rolls for a while.
Even then - he can still say he is just lucky, as some of the people in this thread have experienced.
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don't call him a cheater, that sets things in motion that cannot be undone.
I would agree and disagree with this.
1. Don't call him a cheater - then you are criticising him personally.
2. Call him a friend of yours who has fudged the dice - then you are suggesting that he has made a mistake.
I'm a teacher and this is pretty standard stuff, criticise the behaviour and treat it like something you would not expect from such a lovely guy and he can come back in and be his awesome self without the cheating.
I would also suggest making it part of a broader discussion and taking some of the responsibility on yourself - this is good because it shows that you are in 'anyone can make mistakes' territory, rather than a confrontation - lines like: "Maybe I'm making the game too swingy," or "That last encounter was pretty crazy," or "Maybe we should bring in a higher point buy or action points next time."
Ensure that there is some kind of physical change to go along with this, otherwise it will be easy to slip back into old habits (that's why we call them habits, they're habitual). Whether it be new dice, new ways of rolling, new seating arrangements, new roles (something like becoming Inititative Tracker for the game can help a player to think about himself as part of a group and the importance of randomness in the game).
Finally, part of making this a discussion depends upon inviting your friend to think about the solution, empowering him like that will help to make sure that it is an end to cheating (rather than transferring cheating to character sheet, metagaming or whatever) and also emphasise that your friendship is important and that you trust this guy. Let him come up with solutions, if he can't come up with any ideas then you can suggest a bunch and ask what he prefers, consider the strengths and weaknesses of each together.
But you don't trust him.
This.
It's obvious you don't trust the player (in this situation), but you don't want to call him on it despite the fact that you've admitted that you and the other players don't appreciate it.
At the end of the day, you should deal with it or come to the realization that you're fine letting him cheat.
If it's worth dealing with, then there are a host of good options here. I think the ones that entail a direct, transparent, and up-front conversation are the best. If he can't or won't handle it like an adult, you can't control that. Either he respects you enough to listen to your candor or he doesn't... or he's not mature enough to take it.
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But you don't trust him.
This is the crux of the matter. Since you are accusing him of cheating on this thread, it is obvious that you don't trust him.
After re-reading the thread i have new suggestions:
- Change the table you play on.
- Decide that if you do not see the die roll, it is a failure
- Do not tell DCs. I don't get it why do you tell them anyway. Players shouldn't know DCs that are not their own. That way you can tell him that he failed even if he didn't.
I still think that you are too nice. Walking on eggshells does not work.
You want a solution that does not change anything but stops him from cheating. Not gonna happen. Just not. Unless you confront him with his cheating or imply that you think that someone is a cheater, there will be no change.
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It's not what you asked about, but I see an opportunity to push my "DM screens are toxic" agenda, here, so I will.
All rolls, from everyone, should just be made in the open. If the Wizards SoD's a BBEG in round one, so be it. That's why he chose to play a wizard, to do stuff like that.
The very presence of a DM screen on a table is like an open invitation for everyone to fudge the occasional roll. The rules should apply as evenly to the DM as they do to the players, and in cases where the DM is fiating something, he should make that clear.
These are my opinions. I'm certainly not blaming you for your friend's cheating. I have had friends that did this before, it's totally lame.
But you don't trust him.True. But without concrete proof, I can't back up my accuastion. If I can't catch him doing it, I will need to record the rolls for a while.
Even then - he can still say he is just lucky, as some of the people in this thread have experienced.
But without accusing him, he can't defend himself. I mean, you are convinced that he is cheating. He probably is. But if he isn't and you don't say anything ...
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It's not what you asked about, but I see an opportunity to push my "DM screens are toxic" agenda, here, so I will.
All rolls, from everyone, should just be made in the open. If the Wizards SoD's a BBEG in round one, so be it. That's why he chose to play a wizard, to do stuff like that.
The very presence of a DM screen on a table is like an open invitation for everyone to fudge the occasional roll. The rules should apply as evenly to the DM as they do to the players, and in cases where the DM is fiating something, he should make that clear.
These are my opinions. I'm certainly not blaming you for your friend's cheating. I have had friends that did this before, it's totally lame.
I have to respectfully disagree. DMs screen is very useful. Players have no business seing NPC stat blocks, and DMs rolls. That is why they chose that person to be GM.
If he rolls and picks it up, you just say 'I didn't see it, roll it again'. But I got a 20! Too bad, you shoulda waited. That's why it's called jinxing the dice (smile).
This - just say "I didn't see, roll again". Say this to all the players. Better yet - if you are really sneaky get one of the other players who is not cheating to pick his die up after rolling before you see the result and then say this to him. That way the 'cheat' will not be the one to be confronted first :)
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I have to respectfully disagree. DMs screen is very useful. Players have no business seing NPC stat blocks, and DMs rolls. That is why they chose that person to be GM.
Can you explain why they don't have any business seeing NPC rolls?
They've entered into a social contract with the GM that involves playing by a mutually assumed ruleset in the interest of everyone having fun... you know what? I'm just going to make another thread to avoid "threadcrapping" this one.
I have to respectfully disagree. DMs screen is very useful. Players have no business seing NPC stat blocks, and DMs rolls. That is why they chose that person to be GM.It's not what you asked about, but I see an opportunity to push my "DM screens are toxic" agenda, here, so I will.
All rolls, from everyone, should just be made in the open. If the Wizards SoD's a BBEG in round one, so be it. That's why he chose to play a wizard, to do stuff like that.
The very presence of a DM screen on a table is like an open invitation for everyone to fudge the occasional roll. The rules should apply as evenly to the DM as they do to the players, and in cases where the DM is fiating something, he should make that clear.
These are my opinions. I'm certainly not blaming you for your friend's cheating. I have had friends that did this before, it's totally lame.
I must side with Hama on this one. The screens serve a valuable purpose. I roll behind the screens in case I have to fudge to avoid killing a PC. And my players will metagame from seeing the rolls.
My attempt at a brief recap… well maybe not so brief. :-)
CHANCE THE DICE HE USES
This is not done in our group. We are proud of our dice collections. I will have to do it to everyone. They will know it is to prevent cheating and they will feel resentment to me and the player. If I only do it to him, it will have the same effect as talking to him.
TALK TO HIM
No matter how diplomatically I put it, it will still boil down to - I think you are cheating. Unless I can prove it, he will maintain his innocence and things will become uncomfortable at best, or at worst he will quit. If I have to choose between his quitting or cheating, I choose cheating. But I still want to punish his character for it.
GET SOME PROOF
I will have to have another player catch him - which is unlikely. He won’t do it if someone is watching. Plus the player would have to lean way over to read his die – making it very obvious what is going on. The other way to catch him is to record his rolls for a while. I think they players will notice if I start writing down their rolls, since I don’t do that now. Not to mention what a game-slowing pain in the butt that will be.
CHANGE THE WAY HE ROLLS
I will have to change this for everyone, not just him. We have used the honor system for many years. So I will have to explain that I am doing it to prevent cheating. There will be some resentment for this, but less than making the players use certain dice. This is still my best and most likely response.
SECRETLY PUNISH HIM
This is what I proposed at the beginning of this thread. To be honest it is still my preferred option, but I can see how this would be unfair to the other players. My thought was that he would eventually notice the “bad luck” and realize that I am cheating against his character. He would not confront me about it because he would know why, so he would stop cheating himself.
LET IT GO
This has been the approach for many years, across other campaigns, and other GM’s. I was OK with it mostly. But I am still trying to adjust my encounters to be challenging without being overpowering - since our switch to Pathfinder. So having a PC always make their saves really burns my butt some days.