Director of Narrative
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Kruelly-poo,
You know, I used to LOVE the OT section of the boards. That was where I met a ton of great folks over the years (some of the same damned people who egged me on to start freelancing), but with all the political b&&!@+*$, I slacked off of it. It should be noted that there are just as many antagonistic posters in the CS section and the Rules section (and seriously, the playtest forums). This is a symptom of a larger community. The ratio of positive versus negative hasn’t changed, it’s just a greater number. Think about it. It’s up to each of us to adjust our perspectives. For every person who gets on your nerves, hasn’t there been someone coming around who you genuinely enjoy? It’s just a bigger room, man…and we all want our host to be able to provide a bigger room, right?
Kruely has made his point--he should shut up. Please don't encourage him.
AC: 5
Kruelly-poo,
You know, I used to LOVE the OT section of the boards. That was where I met a ton of great folks over the years (some of the same damned people who egged me on to start freelancing), but with all the political b%~&&!%%, I slacked off of it. It should be noted that there are just as many antagonistic posters in the CS section and the Rules section (and seriously, the playtest forums). This is a symptom of a larger community. The ratio of positive versus negative hasn’t changed, it’s just a greater number. Think about it. It’s up to each of us to adjust our perspectives. For every person who gets on your nerves, hasn’t there been someone coming around who you genuinely enjoy? It’s just a bigger room, man…and we all want our host to be able to provide a bigger room, right?
Think of it as a post filter in a busy conversation, not an ignore feature. Something that helps me find the posts I want--not something that excludes people for some reason or another.
That's essentially how I think of it. Ignore is such a nasty word.
Let's re-brand it.
OUCH!
In my mind the ultimate argument for an "ignore" filter is that if we have one, when someone gets upset and someone else suggests "hey just ignore it"... then the person in question REALLY ACTUALLY CAN ignore it.
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In my mind the ultimate argument for an "ignore" filter is that if we have one, when someone gets upset and someone else suggests "hey just ignore it"... then the person in question REALLY ACTUALLY CAN ignore it.
Your statement suggests to me that you think everyone on the forum is too weak-willed to pass over posts they don't like without reading/responding to them.
I disagree, as I am plenty capable of ignoring things on this forum, like well-reasoned arguments and moderator posts. :)
In my mind the ultimate argument for an "ignore" filter is that if we have one, when someone gets upset and someone else suggests "hey just ignore it"... then the person in question REALLY ACTUALLY CAN ignore it.Your statement suggests to me that you think everyone on the forum is too weak-willed to pass over posts they don't like without reading/responding to them.
I disagree, as I am plenty capable of ignoring things on this forum, like well-reasoned arguments and moderator posts. :)
Yes, IF you deliberately took my statement out of the context of everything else I've said it WOULD suggest that I think that.
Luckily I don't think that, and have clearly stated that I don't. So go ahead and disagree with something I'm not saying if it suits you.
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You mean you stated it in the rest of your posts? The ones I ignored?
You're a veritable oubliette of understanding.
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Kruelaid, I've turned off the OT/Politics because those are not topics that I want to concern myself with while browsing the forum. It has nothing to do with posters themselves. That's a subtle, but important difference.
It's an interesting observation that you associate OT as Politics. Perhaps some of us would like to see Politics as a separate forum section from OTD so we can shut Politics down in the same fashion that you manage to shut OTD down from your viewing.
EDIT: Interestingly, so did Daigle.
You know, I used to LOVE the OT section of the boards.... but with all the political b%*#*~+%, I slacked off of it.
Focus is a step-up, but it's a passive-aggressive way of approaching an ignore feature because I lose out on the new threads I haven't read yet and will not appear if I remain with that option enabled.
In OTD, Politics and Religion has the higher ratio of GRARR activity, generalizations, and prejudice compared to the rest of the contents. Sometimes, I don't get why people want to stir the pot for either topics. This is a role playing game board; there are other Internet sites and URLs that are better suited for such discussions. Unless you want to go to Fox News or Huffington Post and complain about Pathfinder broke the cleric because he lost his free heavy armor proficiency in a random comment thread to one of their news articles? *shrug*
If not the ignore feature because there's some hypothetical dark road that could be traveled with its installation into the source code, would it not be a simpler task to create a sub-section religion / politics / GRARR forum?
The expected response would be "we don't want to do that as we don't want to have that as section that draws attention to those as they are not the primary theme of this overall site, which is a role playing game board."
And my response to that? "Exactly."
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In OTD, Politics and Religion has the higher ratio of GRARR activity, generalizations, and prejudice compared to the rest of the contents. Sometimes, I don't get why people want to stir the pot for either topics. This is a role playing game board; there are other Internet sites and URLs that are better suited for such discussions. Unless you want to go to Fox News or Huffington Post and complain about Pathfinder broke the cleric because he lost his free heavy armor proficiency in a random comment thread to one of their news articles? *shrug*
If not the ignore feature because there's some hypothetical dark road that could be traveled with its installation into the source code, would it not be a simpler task to create a sub-section religion / politics / GRARR forum?
The expected response would be "we don't want to do that as we don't want to have that as section that draws attention to those as they are not the primary theme of this overall site, which is a role playing game board."
And my response to that? "Exactly."
Agreed. And to me that response about a separate GRAR forum makes about as much sense as saying, 'Pooping isn't the main theme of our family, so we don't want to dedicate a separate room for it, lest visitors think all we do all day is sh!t. Use the living room!'
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Agreed. And to me that response about a separate GRAR forum makes about as much sense as saying, 'Pooping isn't the main theme of our family, so we don't want to dedicate a separate room for it, lest visitors think all we do all day is sh!t. Use the living room!'
That may be the most tortured analogy I've ever heard. :)
Also misses the point. They don't want a GRAR forum because they feel it will attract people who have nothing to do Paizo or gaming to come here and argue about GRAR, instead of it just being a place where Paizo community members can GRAR.
To torture your analogy more, it's like putting a bathroom in your office. People having nothing to do with your office are going to want to come in and use it. So you avoid this by having a Port-a-Jon outside the office.
You're supposed to be laughing. Are you? I can't tell.
Of course I am, TOZ. I gotta admit that your first post on the thread got me scratching my head--but it was a chuckling WTF kind of scratch.
I don't get why people think I am making ultimatums or feeling frustrated or getting all serious and solemn just because I'm trying to make a point. I'm just telling people what I think about the issue. It's a matter of marketing and design, which is my job, so I (perhaps foolishly) think the matter is worth looking at rationally instead of waving it off with preconceptions.
It seems the default assumption online is that anyone who disagrees or makes a pointed contention is somehow upset and smashing their keyboard. Really that's one part of the problem that a "post filter" could potentially ameliorate: that not all humankind is equally emotionally adept at handling the internet.
The other key part of the problem is that there are a lot of derps out there.
And by the way, TOZ, your crapper metaphoring didn't do anything to clarify the matter--it didn't even make sense. While you may think you're being funny here, Patrick at least has the wit and creativity to come at this with an excellent metaphor, and you just stretched it into something stupid and useless. What's the point?
I say that with a smile. Don't take it personally.
The rationale for not having a politics and religion forum makes about as much logical sense to me, quite frankly, as the reasons for not having an ignore button. And sadly the two decisions play a torturous synergy together.
... If not the ignore feature because there's some hypothetical dark road that could be traveled....
The "dark road"/"not good path" rationalization is total hogwash.
A web developer is saying to me "if we change it and it doesn't work we can never go back". Just.... Gary.... *laughing*... please tell me you just don't have time to do it as a test. While the excuse is still weak, it's still a better answer--even if you're lying to me.
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... If not the ignore feature because there's some hypothetical dark road that could be traveled....The "dark road"/"not good path" rationalization is total hogwash.
A web developer is saying to me "if we change it and it doesn't work we can never go back". Just.... Gary.... *laughing*... please tell me you just don't have time to do it as a test. While the excuse is still weak, it's still a better answer--even if you're lying to me.
I'd say the developers should focus on things that make the business flow better, instead of making experiments in social interactions.
But you know what, your tone is going steadily downhill as the thread progresses.
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I'd say the developers should focus on things that make the business flow better, instead of making experiments in social interactions.
Pretty much this right here. I'd rather the busy people running things not have to take time out to play hall monitor. I spend most of my time lurking, and it takes about as much effort to push IGNORE as it does to push REPLY. Skim over things that don't interest you and use self-control to keep from replying to those comments/patrons that bother you. It's hard, but as pointed out earlier your ignore won't do much good when people quote some or all of the commentary. It just delays the irritation.
Hello Paizo,
I am not going to drop this.
I am tired of some of the incessant crapping on these boards from certain serial crappers.
For me, it's more the certain special license some posters have to break the forum rules, especially the personal insults part.
I'd love to use my regular browser for reading these boards, but the ignore function script is for Greasemonkey under Firefox.
... making experiments in social interactions...
The boards are part of Paizo's marketing; it's part of their brand; it's part of what Paizo is. How they manage the boards and how the community functions, as they well know, is unarguably connected their sales.
Obviously, from their reasons for not wanting a post filter, they want a functional community as much as any of us. That be cool.
But you know what, your tone is going steadily downhill as the thread progresses.
How so? Because I observed a glimmer of hypocrisy in your argument? Because I told TOZ he pointlessly and impotently trashed Patrick's comment?
Dude, TOZ was trolling me. It was mellow trolling, friendly even, and I have no problem with that. My guess is that he was trying to see if I'd get all primed and blow. He'd know better if he saw me at work before. Anyway I assume he's ok with me calling piss piss and s&*# s#$$, being as he threw out the hook and bait.
So bascially my tone is going "downhill" for taking his troll in stride? LOL. Seriously Gorbacz.... maybe you missed something I got at earlier: about people bringing assumptions to other people's posts? NP man, I do it too.
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I'd love to use my regular browser for reading these boards, but the ignore function script is for Greasemonkey under Firefox.
Tried it.
Don't you get the blank screens all the time? Man, I tossed it. If it's working fine for you I wonder if some of my other plugins may be messing with it....
Just ignore them manually? I don't see the problem.
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Agreed. And to me that response about a separate GRAR forum makes about as much sense as saying, 'Pooping isn't the main theme of our family, so we don't want to dedicate a separate room for it, lest visitors think all we do all day is sh!t. Use the living room!'That may be the most tortured analogy I've ever heard. :)
Also misses the point. They don't want a GRAR forum because they feel it will attract people who have nothing to do Paizo or gaming to come here and argue about GRAR, instead of it just being a place where Paizo community members can GRAR.
To torture your analogy more, it's like putting a bathroom in your office. People having nothing to do with your office are going to want to come in and use it. So you avoid this by having a Port-a-Jon outside the office.
Our CEO has her own private bathroom. No one uses it but her.
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And by the way, TOZ, your crapper metaphoring didn't do anything to clarify the matter--it didn't even make sense. While you may think you're being funny here, Patrick at least has the wit and creativity to come at this with an excellent metaphor, and you just stretched it into something stupid and useless. What's the point?I say that with a smile. Don't take it personally.
I certainly don't! But I have to say, I feel the same way about his metaphor as you feel about mine. It's non-sensical and doesn't fit the situation he describes. Reductio ad absurdum may be what he tried to do, but it ended up just absurd.
As an aside, if Greasemonkey doesn't work for you, I hear there is a version/similar attachment for Google Chrome you might check out. I think hogarth or someone linked it in the old 'request for an ignore option' thread.
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But we're just not going to make an ignore function. Maybe we're too touchy-feely hippy-dippie about our hopes for the quality of discourse on our boards.
I think you're down-right oblivious to the problem. Either that or totally apathetic.
Some posters keep insulting others, and there don't seem to be any consequences. Not veiled insults. Not thinly-veiled insults.
But the part of Paizo's culture that says we can be both good and successful, that says we can make money by being honest and straightforward with our fans, the part that says make good products and provide a place for people to talk about them, that's the same part that tells us an ignore function would send our community down a path that I don't think is very good for what we're trying to do here.
You mean it would be worse than the frequent shouting matches, and the apparently spreading reputation of hostility these boards seem to have?
Even if there were a downside to an official ignore function - which I won't believe until I hear some good arguments - I doubt they would be worse than letting some people rage without being held back.
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I'd love to use my regular browser for reading these boards, but the ignore function script is for Greasemonkey under Firefox.
And by the way, I can tell from your posting patterns that you are ignoring people. Frankly I think it's ruining the community here. You're walking down a dark path brother, you're gazing into an abyss, and if you don't turn back now all is lost! I beg you, don't drag Paizo down with you.
For Gary & any other Paizo staff reading this:
I certainly don't! But I have to say, I feel the same way about his metaphor as you feel about mine. It's non-sensical and doesn't fit the situation he describes. Reductio ad absurdum may be what he tried to do, but it ended up just absurd.
Fair enough.
Although reductio ad absurdum is when you twist a metaphor or argument to absurdity is it not? It seems to me that's what you were trying to do. But what do I know?
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Well no, I was revising his argument to suit my purposes. The inherent silliness of it made it less than ideal, of course. :) (I also got to hide a horrible horrible pun in my post that no one appears to have caught.)
Also, link to the post advertising the Chrome ignore feature mentioned above.
EXHIBIT 2:"I'm sure that by now X has posted Y. Of course I don't see it, having him on ignore, but in case he made another of his inane posts, here's my view on the matter..."
Neither lead to healthy communities, I'm afraid.
That is a very flawed argument. The guy with the ignore list might just ignore the jerk. That does lead to a more healthy community.
Plus, as long as the trolling isn't stopped - and it never has been stopped before, not really - you can't call this community healthy, either.
Just ignore them manually? I don't see the problem.
It leaves hand prints on my screen.
Well no, I was revising his argument to suit my purposes. The inherent silliness of it made it less than ideal, of course. :)
Also, link to the post advertising the Chrome ignore feature mentioned above.
I tried Firefox. Chrome--it's worth a try. I'm running Chrome without any other plugins, just for browser testing, so maybe it won't give me the trouble I had on Firefox. Thanks, dude.
I'm not sure if a debate where part of the disputants cover their ears the moment somebody speaks is a healthy debate.
That's a very ridiculous argument. The ignore function is for ignoring people who are obnoxious. Sure, you can abuse it, but you can abuse everything.
The boards are being abused all the time. Should they be shut down?
It's more like some therapy session for delusional paranoia people.
That's a personal attack. You basically liken those of us who want an ignore function to those who will use it whenever someone disagrees with them and then calls them paranoid.
That's a personal attack. You basically liken those of us who want an ignore function to those who will use it whenever someone disagrees with them and then calls them paranoid.
Wow thank you KaeYoss, I sure let a lot of crap slip through my fingers... maybe I need to ease up on the mellow.
I'm personally worried about any rules that might be put in place based on the actions of a few posters in the OT forum.
The problem's not limited to the OT forum. Not by a long shot.
Lots of people use the forums and never set foot in OT.
I almost never set foot in OT. The problems persist all over. Maybe they're worse in OT - that thought makes me shudder - but they're not limited to it.
I'd rather the busy people running things not have to take time out to play hall monitor.
So they should get rid of the flagging system, too? I bet that implementing the ignore function will save more time then it will take up, as it is easier to use the ignore function once than use the flag function a dozen times a day.
Unless Paizo ignores the flags, but that would be too ironic.
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I'd love to use my regular browser for reading these boards, but the ignore function script is for Greasemonkey under Firefox.
Tried it.
Don't you get the blank screens all the time? Man, I tossed it. If it's working fine for you I wonder if some of my other plugins may be messing with it....
It's working fine. I never got any blank screens.
I got blank threads, but that happens if everyone in the thread is on your ignore list.
Note that the version as written doesn't work in the products section, but it's easy enough to fix that.
Wow thank you KaeYoss, I sure let a lot of crap slip through my fingers... maybe I need to ease up on the mellow.That's a personal attack. You basically liken those of us who want an ignore function to those who will use it whenever someone disagrees with them and then calls them paranoid.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's exactly this sort of off-hand comment that turns arguments ugly.
Plus, I'm sure a few people on these boards have actually been in psychotherapy, and some probably still are. Can't be a great feeling to see your problems being made fun of.
Paizo, better than the circus.
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Perhaps rather than an 'ignore' function for the forums, we need a 'don't take yourself quite so damn seriously when you feel some complete stranger on the internet hasn't given you the respect you are clearly entitled to' function for its users.
Either that or we need to institute internet duels.
Think of it! We could have the offended parties make up builds using a standardized set of rules (like the DPR threads) and then an impartial observer could roll dice on the part of the duelists. The loser must then apologize to the winner. "You're right, good sir. My analogy was totally inappropriate to the topic at hand and I apologize for impugning your better judgement. I bid you good day and good health, to you and all your kin."
How much more civilized would that be? And it requires no action from staff!
By the way, if everyone reading this thread doesn't mark this post as a favorite I'm challenging all of you to virtual duels.
Agreed. And to me that response about a separate GRAR forum makes about as much sense as saying, 'Pooping isn't the main theme of our family, so we don't want to dedicate a separate room for it, lest visitors think all we do all day is sh!t. Use the living room!'That may be the most tortured analogy I've ever heard. :)
Also misses the point. They don't want a GRAR forum because they feel it will attract people who have nothing to do Paizo or gaming to come here and argue about GRAR, instead of it just being a place where Paizo community members can GRAR.
To torture your analogy more, it's like putting a bathroom in your office. People having nothing to do with your office are going to want to come in and use it. So you avoid this by having a Port-a-Jon outside the office.
There are people that have a(n urgent necessary) need to use the restroom and pull off the road and enter a restaurant to use the restroom and then leave the facility without further patronizing the facility. There are others who feel out of an obligation or courtesy that after using the restroom, they go and purchase something -- even if it's something as simple as a small fries or soda to go -- as a token of gratitude.
Now to put it in applicable terms here, there are those who post / gravitate toward the political/religious/GRARR/pot-stirring where you rarely (or never) see them turn-up in areas that are more focused on role playing games on the system. Are they really here for the brand or the primary topic of discussion? Or do they have another agenda?
That said, I know there are others in OTD that avoid the political/religious/GRARR/pot-stirring topics and you rarely (or never) see them turn-up in the same (majority) RPG related areas of the board. Some may argue whether they contribute to the community; why are they here?
Then some simply lurk and never make a single solitary post. Then someone may want to question whether they make a contribution.
Then someone applies a new strawman. Then the Chewbacca defense.
Patrick's comparison, while guilty of overfecalization in its tortured analogy, makes its point using Swift satire in its absurdity.
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I can't believe no one likes my "virtual duel" solution to internet insensitivity.
Why am I the only person who ever thinks I'm brilliant? I must just be misunderstood.
Well well! Someone's been waterboarding my analogy! For shame! :) (smileys make it OK, right?)
Agreed. And to me that response about a separate GRAR forum makes about as much sense as saying, 'Pooping isn't the main theme of our family, so we don't want to dedicate a separate room for it, lest visitors think all we do all day is sh!t. Use the living room!'That may be the most tortured analogy I've ever heard. :)
Also misses the point. They don't want a GRAR forum because they feel it will attract people who have nothing to do Paizo or gaming to come here and argue about GRAR, instead of it just being a place where Paizo community members can GRAR.
To torture your analogy more, it's like putting a bathroom in your office. People having nothing to do with your office are going to want to come in and use it. So you avoid this by having a Port-a-Jon outside the office.
Well, let's put the rubber hose to your analogy, Mr. Zero, if I may (I may? Why thank you!)
Let's say I have an office, as you have suggested. Perhaps I deal with the public, as does Paizo. I don't have a bathroom, but I figure since I don't, no one will defecate on my carpet, right? Except... They are. And by my potted ficus, and where mothers put their kids to play while they wait for service. Some of these defecators aren't even buying my product, they just want a place to drop a deuce. Now, my regular customers, who are accustomed to a pleasant foyer to wait in, have to pick their way through fragrant piles of dung. Some decide perhaps this isn't such a great place to do business after all
You see where I'm coming from? Good. Just so you don't take this personally, here's a winky smile for you ;)