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Hello Paizo,
I am not going to drop this.
I am tired of some of the incessant crapping on these boards from certain serial crappers.
Some others are tired of my crapping (or have been in the past anyway because I don't really post here so much any more--who really gives a rat's ass what I say). Anyway, they can't stand me, or maybe the revile my friends.
Were we able to ignore each other, I theorize that peaceable discourse would wax, and spiteful exchange would wane. In fact some people are already running a plugin to do this... but it is buggy as all hell. I tried it, but ended up uninstalling it because I got tired of seeing blank pages.
Now for Paizo I think this is a marketing decision. Well actually, I don't think it it--IT REALLY IS.
I am SO tired of their crap that I do not feel like hanging out here. IT becomes un-fun after a while, to me, to hear otherwise intelligent and perceptive people become bullies by slinging around generalizations to rationalize their biases and prejudices.
And there is a consequence. It means I stop buying stuff. For Paizo the state of affairs means I stop digesting Paizo's greatest marketing communication--the boards. The hangout. The community effect.
Sure ignoring people is not really good sociability, which we want in an ideal world. But at least ignore creates a shadow or illusion of peace. Damn, it's marketing... the way we perceive it is the important thing anyway, right? Who cares what it really is.
So to wrap this up I contend that by refusing to implement this simple bit of code you are reducing potential purchases by prolonging a state of affairs that drives buyers away. Look at my recent buying history. That says it all.
Senior Software Developer
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I get that you're frustrated. But we're just not going to make an ignore function. Maybe we're too touchy-feely hippy-dippie about our hopes for the quality of discourse on our boards. But the part of Paizo's culture that says we can be both good and successful, that says we can make money by being honest and straightforward with our fans, the part that says make good products and provide a place for people to talk about them, that's the same part that tells us an ignore function would send our community down a path that I don't think is very good for what we're trying to do here.
Ultimatums rarely end favorably.
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Hey Kruel, you and I generally seem to be on the same page (or at least reading the same book), but I disagree with you about the necessity for an ignore feature. While I completely agree that there are some people who post here who seem to have little of any worth to offer to the community (and in fact piss me off royally), that often has as much to do with them having a different outlook or experience to me than with them being complete tools ... sometimes. Still doesn’t mean I want to read them most of the time, but depending on the context of the discussion sometimes even the tools have something useful or thought provoking to say.
I have a pretty good ignore feature, it certainly doesn’t work 100% of the time (as evidenced by my involvement in a recent regrettable thread), but it serves me pretty damned well when I actually want it to: just choose to ignore people. See a certain poster’s name, skip over their post, or be in the frame of mind to laugh at their complete lack of a clue. See a certain contentious looking thread topic, don’t open it. A certain part of the boards seems to be attracting more than its fair share of jerk-offs, collapse it.
I appreciate that it might not work for everyone, but it does work for me so long as I use a little bit of willpower. It generally makes my browsing time much more enjoyable.
Not buying from a company who’s choices you disagree with is certainly your prerogative, and I won’t admonish you for it, assuming I even had the right. My personal choice is to not punish a company because they want to take the approach that assumes the best of people, even when some of their customers happen to be bottom feeders and fools.
Anyway, whatever happens Kruel, I hope you decide to at least stick around for the pbps. I like to think that not too many of us in that section are asses.
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...I appreciate that it might not work for everyone...
Exactly. And I don't see myself using ignore either except for people who spam my favorite threads. I have no interest in ignoring people who disagree with me. It's pretty obvious that some people could benefit from it though.
Ultimatums rarely end favorably.
This barely merits a reply, but seeing as it defames my maturity I'll bite.
Attention: there is no ultimatum here, you've mistaken me for a pouty derp.
This is action reaction. Derps and trolls rant and rave>>I don't feel the community>>I don't come here>>I don't buy because I'm not getting the marketing message (ie. the COMMUNITY).
I get that you're frustrated. But we're just not going to make an ignore function. Maybe we're too touchy-feely hippy-dippie about our hopes for the quality of discourse on our boards. But the part of Paizo's culture that says we can be both good and successful, that says we can make money by being honest and straightforward with our fans, the part that says make good products and provide a place for people to talk about them, that's the same part that tells us an ignore function would send our community down a path that I don't think is very good for what we're trying to do here.
I'm not frustrated at all. Why would you get that?
I love you Gary, but that doesn't mean that sometimes you are not wrong.
I would be a moron to come here if it was frustrating me. That's the point. Why would I want to participate in a community if it frustrates me? Again, exactly my point.
***
Tell me, Gary, what is Paizo trying to do here on these boards. I assure you it's not just giving us a place to talk about your products. It's creating a sense of community. If there are two people who just can't get along, it's good for all of us if they can ignore each other. It's good for the whole community that they have they have an option that helps them ignore each other.
"Send our community down a path that I don't think is very good for what we're trying to do here."
YOU don't think it's very good? Come now.
What's down this "path"? Have you been granted a vision of the future that we can't see? Is it a bleak apocalypse of silence where everyone ignores everyone else and we all sit inside our own personal echo chambers? Do you really think the WE are going to turn into a bunch of adolescents posting "IGGY!" every time someone says something we don't like? Really, Gary. That's absurd. A Paizo ignore is going to have Paizo character--it's not going to turn out as a photostat of whichever site it is you are afraid of.
What are you trying to do here? Judging from your policies on the boards I don't think you guys really know.
Focus is good. Ignore, which is a little more power of personal moderating is consistent with using focus. But you guys don't want us to decide whose posts we can see or not? We either have to swallow the whole thing or nothing at all?
From your conduct here, Gary, I find you to be a dude of outstanding character. I really like you. But you couldn't be more wrong.
***
In closing I'd like to point out that Paizo has never ever given more than a vague prophetic reason for not implementing this.
This is a website. You of all people know that you could TRY an ignore feature as temporary site feature and see how it works. You could solicit responses and feelings about it, empowering us twofold.
And then you could easily roll back the feature if you decide it is taking the Paizo boards down the dark road.
You might find that it makes no difference at all.
You might find that it achieves this murky echopocalypse.
You might find that it works.
But until you try it. You just don't know--all you have are preconceptions.
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And knowing is half the battle.
Some good points there Kruelaid. I don’t think I would use an ignore feature (but then you just made me realise that maybe I would ...), but I can see that there might be a benefit for some people, and it might just reduce the pointless and nasty arguments without limiting the actual meaningful discussion.
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Now, the question is: why do we all have to get ourselves some Bizzaro World forum just because a bunch of folks who barely stick their nose out of OT/Politics sections can't stand each other?I'm not sure I understand the firsst part of your point, what constitutes the Bizzaro World forum?
EXHIBIT 1:
Poster 1 posts.
Poster 2 replies to that post, citing it.
Poster 3, who has poster 1 on "ignore", has two options:
1. Pretend he didn't see the cited post
2. MURRRAGHBLURGLE
Option 2 is the default one.
EXHIBIT 2:
"I'm sure that by now X has posted Y. Of course I don't see it, having him on ignore, but in case he made another of his inane posts, here's my view on the matter..."
Neither lead to healthy communities, I'm afraid.
Now, the question is: why do we all have to get ourselves some Bizzaro World forum just because a bunch of folks who barely stick their nose out of OT/Politics sections can't stand each other?
The magic thing is that you don't have to use it. All it does is allow people who are getting frustrated to ignore someone that is frustrating them.
Why would you notice any changes other than observing that sometimes two other posters are not aware of each other's contentions?
As it is often people don't pay attention to other people's contentions and then reply to an imagined contention or statement... as Kryzbyn has already demonstrated on this thread.
Really, how could the former be worse than the latter?
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Now, the question is: why do we all have to get ourselves some Bizzaro World forum just because a bunch of folks who barely stick their nose out of OT/Politics sections can't stand each other?The magic thing is that you don't have to use it. All it does is allow people who are getting frustrated to ignore someone that is frustrating them.
Why would you notice any changes other than observing that sometimes two other posters are not aware of each other's contentions?
As it is often people don't pay attention to other people's contentions and then reply to an imagined contention or statement... as Kryzbyn has already demonstrated on this thread.
Really, how could the former be worse than the latter?
I'm not sure if a debate where part of the disputants cover their ears the moment somebody speaks is a healthy debate. It's more like some therapy session for delusional paranoia people.
Yes, and I do mean that debate that degenerates is healthier than that.
You can't ignore that the European Bison is extinct everywhere, except in the primeval Polish forest.
Neither lead to healthy communities, I'm afraid.
Again, there's the vague moral hand-wave. It kind of reminds me of people who argue against gay parents adopting.
"BUT SOCIETY WILL CLEARLY CRUMBLE IF WE ALLOW IT!"
Well... you have not defined healthy community. Should you do so, you may find that ignore is quite consistent with your definition. And still you will have no evidence that the feature will lead to your undefined unhealthy community here on Paizo.
Simply put, you have nothing other than a prejudice against a trivial message board feature.
Again, as with Gary and any other Paizo decision makers who oppose ignore, if you don't try it out you've got nothing to argue from.
I'm not sure if a debate where part of the disputants cover their ears the moment somebody speaks is a healthy debate. It's more like some therapy session for delusional paranoia people.
You're not sure...
And worse, now you want to stop people, who are members of this community, from covering their ears.
First, these boards are not a "debate". These boards are people hanging out. These boards are a community. Sometimes debates occur, but they're not formal. Why should someone be stopped from covering their ears?
What's really unhealthy here, people who want to cover their ears or not allowing people to cover their ears?
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I'm not sure if a debate where part of the disputants cover their ears the moment somebody speaks is a healthy debate. It's more like some therapy session for delusional paranoia people.
You're not sure...
And worse, now you want to stop people, who are members of this community, from covering their ears.
First, these boards are not a "debate". These boards are people hanging out. These boards are a community. Sometimes debates occur, but they're not formal. Why should someone be stopped from covering their ears?
What's really unhealthy here, people who want to cover their ears or not allowing people to cover their ears?
I'm beginning to have the idea that we frequent two completely different forums that happen to sit under one URL.
And yes, I think this whole "Off Topic/Politics" thing plays a large part in that.
Personally, I'm not here to make friends or build communities, I'm here to get information about how to spend my money. If I want a club of like-minded people, I can start one over facebook, mailing list or whatever have you.
But if a store/company forum introduces an "ignore" option, it means that some people have lost a seemingly easy ability to NOT READ STUFF THAT MAKES THEM TICK.
That's the coward's way.
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EXHIBIT 1:
Poster 1 posts.
Poster 2 replies to that post, citing it.
Poster 3, who has poster 1 on "ignore", has two options:1. Pretend he didn't see the cited post
2. MURRRAGHBLURGLEOption 2 is the default one.
EXHIBIT 2:
"I'm sure that by now X has posted Y. Of course I don't see it, having him on ignore, but in case he made another of his inane posts, here's my view on the matter..."
Neither lead to healthy communities, I'm afraid.
Ok, I understand what you are saying now, thankyou for clarifying.
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I don't post much outside of PbP because plenty of people frustrate me to the point where I am typing out snarky, aggressive and sometimes downright hostile posts back to them before sighing, calming down and just not responding at all or toning it down significantly.
I feel your pain OP but I don't think an ignore function is the answer. Just filter out the partixular sub-forums that irritate you and try to have the discipline to not 'bite' and respond to people posting what you see as thread crapping. Build your own mental ignore button :).
I'm personally worried about any rules that might be put in place based on the actions of a few posters in the OT forum.
Lots of people use the forums and never set foot in OT. It isn't actually what the forums are about, as charming as they can be down there.
We're on a company website (presumably) because we enjoy the product. Some of us are psychotic in such a way as we identify with the product. Some of us choose to hang around and be helpful for other fans of the the product.
A small portion of us use this as a daily social venue. Let's not forget that the customer service portion of this beast is many many times larger than the social venue. Also, it pays for all of this with human dollars.
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I'm beginning to have the idea that we frequent two completely different forums that happen to sit under one URL.
And yes, I think this whole "Off Topic/Politics" thing plays a large part in that.
Personally, I'm not here to make friends or build communities, I'm here to get information about how to spend my money. If I want a club of like-minded people, I can start one over facebook, mailing list or whatever have you.
But if a store/company forum introduces an "ignore" option, it means that some people have lost a seemingly easy ability to NOT READ STUFF THAT MAKES THEM TICK.
And that's why I have all that OT/Politics stuff turned off.
You're not here just to get information about how to spend your money. If that were so you wouldn't be in here discussing the issue with me.
This IS a community. A community need not be like minded and I have never contended so. In fact the whole point here is that we are not like minded--and more importantly that some of us are utterly and completely unable to ignore others by plugging our ears or turning up our iPods, as we COULD do in real life if we wanted.
This community need only have two things in common: we like Paizo and we like hanging out here.
And honestly, you're getting condescending here by suggesting that ignoring should be "easy" for everyone. What's worse, you think it's reasonable to deny them a simple technical way of ignoring other people because for you, yourself, it is an easy thing to do. I'm sorry Gorbacz, but being able to ignore people easily does not make you any better than people who easily become passionate or upset about something they read.
What's worse, you have perhaps revealed a shadow of hypocrisy behind your condescension. The fact that you have de-focused OTD evidences that maybe it's not so easy for you after all.... You have, essentially, already capitalized on a limited ignore function.
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I'm personally worried about any rules that might be put in place based on the actions of a few posters in the OT forum....
What's beautiful about ignore is that it is not a rule. It offers, for those who want it, a way to control their environment on these boards in an effort to avoid this:
I don't post much outside of PbP because plenty of people frustrate me to the point where I am typing out snarky, aggressive and sometimes downright hostile posts back to them before sighing, calming down and just not responding at all or toning it down significantly.
I feel your pain OP but I don't think an ignore function is the answer. Just filter out the partixular sub-forums that irritate you and try to have the discipline to not 'bite' and respond to people posting what you see as thread crapping. Build your own mental ignore button :).
I have no pain here. I'm just trying to rationally approach the matter.
I don't bite. Now and then I take issue with something that bothers me. Most of the time I just move on. In fact, I don't even flag, as a general rule, except when one of my secret buddies asks for a flag pileup.
Why should I have to filter out a sub-forum when I want to filter out a moron? Why do you prefer one over the other?
You can't ignore that the European Bison is extinct everywhere, except in the primeval Polish forest.And now I find a sudden craving to make a European Bison alias. Thanks Mairk.
What's beautiful about ignore is that it is not a rule. It offers, for those who want it, a way to control their environment on these boards in an effort to avoid this:Why should I have to filter out a sub-forum when I want to filter out a moron? Why do you prefer one over the other?I don't post much outside of PbP because plenty of people frustrate me to the point where I am typing out snarky, aggressive and sometimes downright hostile posts back to them before sighing, calming down and just not responding at all or toning it down significantly.
I feel your pain OP but I don't think an ignore function is the answer. Just filter out the partixular sub-forums that irritate you and try to have the discipline to not 'bite' and respond to people posting what you see as thread crapping. Build your own mental ignore button :).
My earnest question to you is: does the rest of the forum need an ignore feature? Are we making this just because of OT behavior?
OT is the dregs, and proud of it. It is the wastebin of the website. What ends up there is sometimes hysterical and worthy of inspection, but it isn't the principle function of this place. I don't think we need an ignore function for 95% of the conversations.
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Why should I have to filter out a sub-forum when I want to filter out a moron?
Because it appears (with no offence intended) that you are unable to stop yourself responding to them and this is the closest you are going to get to an ignore function.
Are there other people also clamouring for an ignore function? It doesn't seem like theres much desire for the function but thats just my experience, YMMV; i'd rather they devoted their time to fixing the post edits problem but thats just me.
Edit: I'd also be interested to hear an answer to Lincoln's question, is it just OT that bugs you?
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When I was on another forum with a demeaning poster that did little but aggravating me, I decided to use the ignore option on the forum to remove the temptation I had to continue reading their rantings. The result did pretty much nothing to help myself as other people in the threads were still talking to the poster and often quoting the most objectionable parts. That just left me back at square one where I still had to just ignore them without the use of a forum tool if I didn't want to deal with them.
I don't think an ignore function would work out much better here. It may cut down the number of words you see from them, but unless you are able to ignore them without an ignore function I don't think it will make the community feel any better for myself at least.
When I was on another forum with a demeaning poster that did little but aggravating me, I decided to use the ignore option on the forum to remove the temptation I had to continue reading their rantings. The result did pretty much nothing to help myself as other people in the threads were still talking to the poster and often quoting the most objectionable parts. That just left me back at square one where I still had to just ignore them without the use of a forum tool if I didn't want to deal with them.
I don't think an ignore function would work out much better here. It may cut down the number of words you see from them, but unless you are able to ignore them without an ignore function I don't think it will make the community feel any better for myself at least.
For me personally, the only time I wanted to use ignore was because of someone intruding on a conversation I was enjoying, and their constant stream of mindless posts was seriously fun stealing, so it would have really helped.
I got the hint, I got it! Just send me a PM over the forum oh wait. GARY!** spoiler omitted **You can't ignore that the European Bison is extinct everywhere, except in the primeval Polish forest.And now I find a sudden craving to make a European Bison alias. Thanks Mairk.
He doesn't love us. Sniff. Sniff.
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I don’t think it’s accurate to depict this as an OTD issue. I know a lot of people, myself included, who tend to avoid the rules and advice forums, and in particular the play test forums when they are active owing either to the general level of nastiness from some posters, the way that some threads there can degenerate into pointless circular arguments, or the fact that some of my fellow gamers have such a different experience of and outlook towards the game that we all enjoy that nothing they say will be of any use to me (or I to them).
Some of the posters who have annoyed me the most over the years I have been here rarely if ever post in the OTD.
I don’t think that an ignore feature would really help me in the main, but if we had one I would be tempted to use it to see if it would improve my experience of the rules and advice type forums.
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Kruelaid, I've turned off the OT/Politics because those are not topics that I want to concern myself with while browsing the forum. It has nothing to do with posters themselves. That's a subtle, but important difference.
Now, since we're on the topic of experiments (and you're still dodging the "which subforums I have problem with" issue), maybe let's start with you experimenting which forums you read? Before requesting the big guns, you know.
And my impressions come from the fact that dude, I barely know you. You appear outside OTD so seldom, and when you do you engage in disputes even less often, that I am only tangentially aware of what you represent and what your posting style is. Heck, there are many people over here whom I see pop up in a conversation, check their profile only to see 15k posts including aliases and some long list of friends/enemies where I recognize maybe half of nicks listed.
For the record, that's a normal situation wherever OTDs are encountered, there's always some bunch of folks who live their own life there, not exactly mingling with the "on-topic" part of the forum.
Darn I replaced a post instead of cutting from it. DOH!
Why should I have to filter out a sub-forum when I want to filter out a moron?Because it appears (with no offence intended) that you are unable to stop yourself responding to them and this is the closest you are going to get to an ignore function.
Are there other people also clamouring for an ignore function? It doesn't seem like theres much desire for the function but thats just my experience, YMMV; i'd rather they devoted their time to fixing the post edits problem but thats just me.
...
I have no problem stopping myself. What the heck are you talking about? Link? I just sometimes want to be able to tune people out. I'd probably tune back in once they finish spewing their bile.
I avoid the playtest forums when they are active.
I don't think an ignore feature would change that, since the complaints are very much a product of the prevailing attitude, not individual posters. I wouldn't be able to click ignore fast enough for it to matter.
I would rather see development time go to private messaging than to an ignore feature.
Kruelaid, I've turned off the OT/Politics because those are not topics that I want to concern myself with while browsing the forum. It has nothing to do with posters themselves. That's a subtle, but important difference.
Now, since we're on the topic of experiments (and you're still dodging the "which subforums I have problem with" issue), maybe let's start with you experimenting which forums you read? Before requesting the big guns, you know.
And my impressions come from the fact that dude, I barely know you. You appear outside OTD so seldom, and when you do you engage in disputes even less often, that I am only tangentially aware of what you represent and what your posting style is. Heck, there are many people over here whom I see pop up in a conversation, check their profile only to see 15k posts including aliases and some long list of friends/enemies where I recognize maybe half of nicks listed.
For the record, that's a normal situation wherever OTDs are encountered, there's always some bunch of folks who live their own life there, not exactly mingling with the "on-topic" part of the forum.
I want to read forums on subjects that interest me. Unfortunately there are people who just want to turn them into a s&&% storm or spam them.
It's pretty simple: I'm not bothered by topics, I'm bothered by jackasses. Why should I defocus a topic I enjoy discussing in a reasonable manner when all I want to do is read through without having to scan a serial troll's posts to see if (for once) he or she might have posted something reasonable? (considering the feature is easy to implement)
Not mingling with on topic?
Hardly. Seems I'm just not into the same 'on-topics' you are.
I grant you this, the issue is mostly OTD for me. Although the derpery spreads out into other threads regularly. The edition wars standing as the most shining example.
Darn I replaced a post instead of cutting from it. DOH!You've got 18k posts and don't use Lazarus? Now I'm stunned, and maybe staggered too.I’ve got 22 K posts and I don’t know what Lazarus is. The name is a clue, but care to enlighten?
Prone yet?
It's a plugin for Firefox. Security nightmare, but really useful.
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I avoid the playtest forums when they are active.
I don't think an ignore feature would change that, since the complaints are very much a product of the prevailing attitude, not individual posters. I wouldn't be able to click ignore fast enough for it to matter.
I would rather see development time go to private messaging than to an ignore feature.
I tend to agree, Evil Lincoln, especially as you get a lot of flyby posters during the playtests who just come out of the woodwork at such times.
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It's a plugin for Firefox. Security nightmare, but really useful.Darn I replaced a post instead of cutting from it. DOH!You've got 18k posts and don't use Lazarus? Now I'm stunned, and maybe staggered too.I’ve got 22 K posts and I don’t know what Lazarus is. The name is a clue, but care to enlighten?
Prone yet?
It lets you recover something that you've posted and lost?
I tend to agree, Evil Lincoln, especially as you get a lot of flyby posters during the playtests who just come out of the woodwork at such times.I avoid the playtest forums when they are active.
I don't think an ignore feature would change that, since the complaints are very much a product of the prevailing attitude, not individual posters. I wouldn't be able to click ignore fast enough for it to matter.
I would rather see development time go to private messaging than to an ignore feature.
I agree with everything except the last. I'd like to see ignore and PM both.
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Not mingling with on topic?Hardly. Seems I'm just not into the same 'on-topics' you are.
I think there's a problem with the link mate.
It lets you recover something that you've posted and lost?
Affirmative.
Damn I have to get to work here....
I think there's a problem with the link mate.
Not mingling with on topic?Hardly. Seems I'm just not into the same 'on-topics' you are.
Fixed, thanks guys.