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Apsu and Dahak are also five Domain 'big gods,' and might have only a few hundred dragons following them. Souls, when they become petitioners, lose their class levels and racial qualities and memories of being anything other than a worm with a human face (in Hell, anyway), so it's not like a mythic dragon archmage soul is 'worth more points' than a commoner 1 human. Once it's in a night hag's jar, every soul seems to weigh the same...
Actually, soul trade rules contradict this - souls of more powerful mortals and mortal entities (such as dragons) are worth more, up to two orders of magnitude more, implying that their metaphysical worth is also greater.
Worshippers = power fell apart even in the Realms, where gods with few if any worshippers, like Shar and Ao and the big dinosaur dude in Chult, were 'Greater' gods, while 'lesser gods' like Tymora or Torm seemed to have shrines in every town, and be the gods of choice for everyone. Gods like the Kossuth and the other 'cold elemental lords' seemed to actively dislike their worshippers, and yet got along just fine. Mystra's another one who...
Worshippers = power was limitation placed on gods upon the end of the Time Of Troubles by Ao himself. There was little time for the actual divine power to re-balance itself along that lines and, as it was his decree there is no reason why he should apply it to himself. Ignoring the fact that Ao was something more than a god.
Four elementals "gods" were later retconned to be primordials during the butchering of the FR lore so it freed them from that limitation as well.
Perhaps the older, more primal deities had more energy stored and it wasn't taken from them immediately. Also, if the worshippers are source of power they might be providing deities with divine energy indirectly - fighting soldiers provide deities of war and strife, animals and plants by their very life providing power to deities of nature... And so on.
First of all, it's worth noting that "belief" and "worship" are two different things, though they're kind of muddled in FR, so that could cause confusion. Gods get power from both. They also got power from a third source: salience, or importance. All of this revolves around a god's portfolio.
Worship is active. It can be strong (more valuable) or weak (less valuable) but it's the active component.
Belief is not necessarily active. Active belief is "worship" for FR purposes. It, too, can be strong and weak (more and less valuable, respectively).
Salience, or importance, means the general level of impact a given god's portfolio has on peoples' lives regardless of the actual straight forward worship or even belief. Salience, is actually the most important element to how much "power" a god receives. The more salient the portfolio elements, the more "power" a god gets in general. Belief increases that even more, and worship above and beyond that.
I go into more unnecessary detail below, but the above three concepts pretty much contain the whole of how the god-power-thing works.
From what I recall, however, gods always gained power from worship and belief, until they hit overgod status (which Ao was), which meant that they became "beyond mortals". They kind of just hit a new state of being, so much so that worship no longer mattered. In fact, that's more or less what was spelled out in the 3rd Edition Deities and Demigods book, as well. In FR, it could easily be handwaved as Ao's "portfolio" was "gods and everything" and, thus, everything - especially gods - generated him salience and (indirectly) worship and belief. But, you know, he's an over deity so worship doesn't really mean that.
I know that certain gods, like Amaunator, suffered from a lack of worshipers and believers. In 3.X era canon Amaunator eventually died from lack of worship (and might have become a vestige), though in 4E canon "But it was really Lathander all along!" was the explanation.
One of the key elements to understanding divine power and worship wasn't just "I have X number of followers who attend church" (although that was certainly a thing), but also how important an element of a god's portfolio was across the board - the "salience". Thus, when Bane came back and severely impacted the world for fear, he gained the portfolio of fear. It maintained its status as "super important" in the common lives and such and was, from what I understand, towards the forefront of many minds and in prayers. Thus he received indirect worship as well.
Thus, gods had straightforward portfolio elements (things that brought the masses into church each week) and indirect portfolio elements (things that people constantly needed, prayed-or-thought about/for/against, or otherwise constantly intruded on their lives) and gods gained some worship from that. There was the direct worship and the indirect worship. There was even the (mis)direct worship, where a god pretended to be another god and thus siphoned some (not all) of the real god's worship (by diverting the direct worship, though not the indirect worship). Then there was the more fervent and "strong" worship, and the lighter, broader "worship". Strong is obviously "worth more", whereas light worship might be found all over the place, but it's not as valuable.
If any of this is sounding like financial investment strategies, specifically that of a "diversified portfolio" (ahem)... well, you're right. It is.
The claiming of a portfolio element was relatively straightforward, too: be "the best" at it, or at least widely recognized as such enough to generate worship. However, there was also a limited amount of focus and energy mortals had to generating worship, thus you couldn't just fabricate a new element and go "POOF! I AM A GAWD, FOO'S!", or at least it took a lot of initial time, effort, and investment... because it had to matter to people enough to worship you for it, and you had to receive enough worship to support your "current status" or else you'll start to go "bankrupt" and your investments turn into "sinks", causing you to go "in debt" - or maybe default, or bankrupt, or something I don't know -, and everything you'd slowly built would crumble.
Uber-gods (or overgods, or whatever - they never settled on one term) were those that had ascended beyond the needs of such things. Although, it's worth noting, that ubergods could still hecka wreck other ubergods. That's why Cyric was only briefly an ubergod. Ao apparently had at least 10 divine ranks more than Cyric while the latter was a temporary overgod, and thus Ao redistributed Cyric's godhood at his leisure.
Also, it was noted that certain creatures "worked better" than others to generate "worship power". Most Outsiders and Undead, for example, sucked as resources - a noted reason that gods were super-interested in the material plane. Dead souls, on the other hand, were still valuable, before they became refined into the non-petitioner form of outsiders.
Anyway, none of that really matters in Golarion, because gods don't run just on worship, or even require worship to maintain their divinity; though if text in the Legacy of Fire "in character" stuff can be trusted, it's possible that worship or belief is enough to push you into divinity from a non-divine state; that's a pretty big "if", though.
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I agree mostly with Tacticslion comments.
While 4th edition officially presented return of Amaunator as him revealing oneself after period of renewal taken as Lathander (and thus keeping Lathander's portfolio), it could be case of divine usurpation where Amaunator was revived by his worshippers/divine servants who forced Lathander to merge with older deity...
It could be interesting twist for a campaign. I wonder how would my party's Lathander-worshipping Fighter react to that.
Anyway, none of that really matters in Golarion, because gods don't run just on worship, or even require worship to maintain their divinity; though if text in the Legacy of Fire "in character" stuff can be trusted, it's possible that worship or belief is enough to push you into divinity from a non-divine state; that's a pretty big "if", though.
And yet, Razmir despite his claims and worship isn't deity... At least for now.
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I agree mostly with Tacticslion comments.
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, none of that really matters in Golarion, because gods don't run just on worship, or even require worship to maintain their divinity; though if text in the Legacy of Fire "in character" stuff can be trusted, it's possible that worship or belief is enough to push you into divinity from a non-divine state; that's a pretty big "if", though.And yet, Razmir despite his claims and worship isn't deity... At least for now.
I can see that. And that's how I more or less interpreted that. However it's not really presented that way in 4E. In all the material I've ever read it's always been, "BUT HE WAS LATHANDER THE WHOOOOOOOOOOLE TIME!" which really kind of flies in the face of things... unless you get really, really metaphysically complicated, which I kind of do. So I guess I'm saying: it actually works for me, but it doesn't work as printed because to make all the statements work requires a lot of hoops to jump through that are perfectly viable, but not really obvious.
One way to put how I handle it was presented in the Twilight War trilogy (I miss Erevis Cale) when Cale saw the eternity of Mask's divinity stretching back forever into history, and Mask explained that he was always divine "forever"... but that "when he was mortal" it just "seemed like it took forever to realize it" (or something similar).
In other words, the act of becoming divine changed the history of reality, even if it didn't change the history of history. The divinity itself (which had always existed), to some extent became Mask (and did so forever into the past), and he the divinity. Meanwhile the mortal mask ascended to the temporal status of the deity he was.
If someone else ascends later to the same divine elements, the history of history is not rewritten. He doesn't become Mask. But he becomes the immortal and unending divinity.
Thus, when Amaunator "removed the mask of Lathander", that was actually Lathander transforming into a the rejuvinated Amaunator... even though Amaunator was dead... even though Amaunator never died. Because according to Lathander's history, he was always Amaunator, even if he wasn't before. His memories suddenly became filtered by Amaunator's and Amaunator's suddenly became filtered by Lathander's.
On the surface, this looks like belief shapes the perception of even the gods, but... no. For example, it doesn't matter what people believe, Amaunator's memories don't change to conform to their belief. But rather, Amaunator's memories merge with Lathander's in such a way as it's impossible to tell the two were ever different, even within his (not "their") own mind... and even within history.
Meanwhile, there's an astral corpse of Amaunator floating around somewhere, that, now, never was Amaunator.
Of course, I love the idea of fusing different people into one. I have ever since I first saw the Psionic Handbook's "metaconcert" power, the gestalt rules, and later the EPH's fusion power. So, you know, I've thought about this kind of thing a lot.
Incidentally, this kind of view allows really significant changes to canon, yet doesn't invalidate old canon. Faerun used to be part of the Great Wheel? Yep. It did. Now the Great Wheel isn't there? That is correct. And it never was, either. (I generally write this off as an action of Ao.) One of the other interesting side-effects is that more modern societies would then be able to look at the "crude" and "obviously incorrect" information older societies had, and feel "superior" because "we have it right"... which is true. It's just that the older societies also had it right, even though the two things are technically incompatible.
I still don't like 4E's changes, though. :)
If it seems to be totally confused ranting above... sorry. I dunno how else to put it right now.
Anyway, so regarding outsiders and undead as "bad for business" as it were, why would a god ever want to convert soul-stuff into other outsiders? Well... for the same reason we convert excess cash into "nice things" for ourselves. Having an excess means we have the capital to convert and acquire a "pleasant" life.
In a god's case, converting souls into servants is the same. If they've built up enough of a buffer "to last a while", and there's no obvious reason to expect they'll be "starving" for some time, there's no reason not to expend some of it on outsiders to become useful servants. Because no matter how powerful the god (with the possible exception of Ao, and even then) they can't actually "be everywhere at once", so having those divine outsider servants is really handy. Also, to some extent, and, at least, for the older gods, it probably happened automatically anyway, because reality worked differently back then (even if, in the future, it would "always have been the way it is now").
Again noting the limited amount of mortal spirits means that there's a limit to the amount that a god is willing to fork over.
Good gods did this with their worshiper's love and acceptance. Evil gods... well, the Hells breaks your soul-stuff down whether you want it to happen to you or not (as one example).
Oh, and undead are generally frustrating to have as "worshipers" because not only do they not generate anything, but they're also usually out of your sphere of influence. Undead are kind of a robbery of the gods, of a sort - at least the ones with souls are. The others... well, they're just kind of there, and not that useful to a god in most cases (with notable exceptions), though mortal worshipers probably could use those things. This brings up a great reason for many gods to have enmity with undeath in general.
And why, precisely, did petitioners generate worship while other outsiders did not? Well... they didn't. Not exactly. While mortals were kind of like the "generator" of "worship" (the generic term FR used - and thus I am using - for "God Juice" or "god funds" that encompasses worship, belief, and portfolio salience) the petitioners were more like that money that was in a savings account (presuming a savings account does what it's actually supposed to...). It didn't do much for you generating-wise, but it kind of stored stuff up for "later", as a "just in case". Once outsiders were transformed into their other forms, however, they're no longer "saved" - they're "expended".
Also, "outsider" is a terribly defined term, and I don't really like it. Never have.
ANYway, I've rambled for WAY to long on this. :)
You are entirely correct about Razmir. I suspect there's more to it than just that, though. Aroden was an immortal... um... "mortal" I guess? ... for millennia before he finally became a god. I suspect there might be a requirement of mythic tiers plus a certain "critical mass" of worship/belief/etc plus some other criteria that we don't know (probably unique to each god, like Irori's perfect mastery or Nethys' uber-spell)... or, you know, the Starstone "does it for you".
Which is a really interesting take on Aroden. He was the first to ascend by the Star Stone... and Nethys and Irori both consider his followers "cheating" (though not him, probably because he found a "unique" way, like they did). He's also the only god to die. I know it's common conjecture, but I still find it interesting.
I thought there were other older gods that died in the battles that chained Rovagug in Golarion, or is that such old history that it doesn't count? Although I may be entirely wrong about that and I may only be imagining reading that.
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I agree mostly with Tacticslion comments.
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, none of that really matters in Golarion, because gods don't run just on worship, or even require worship to maintain their divinity; though if text in the Legacy of Fire "in character" stuff can be trusted, it's possible that worship or belief is enough to push you into divinity from a non-divine state; that's a pretty big "if", though.And yet, Razmir despite his claims and worship isn't deity... At least for now.
** spoiler omitted **...
You're right, you're crazy :P
But I get what you're saying... does this mean I need help too?
I thought there were other older gods that died in the battles that chained Rovagug in Golarion, or is that such old history that it doesn't count? Although I may be entirely wrong about that and I may only be imagining reading that.
you're right, can't remember where I read it this moment but yes there were a few at least that bit it.
if you're thinking of gods to fight, start with a less powerful one then Rovagug, he would wipe the floor with most other deities, it took Sarenrae working together with Asmodeous to JUST chain him up, Mythic Heroes, no matter how optimized, with superior tactics won't do more then get within a mile of him.
instead focus the thread on deities you Might be able to get a shot in before going SPLAT against the wall.
p.s. i'm not mad, just haven't figured how to make words bold:)
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I thought there were other older gods that died in the battles that chained Rovagug in Golarion, or is that such old history that it doesn't count? Although I may be entirely wrong about that and I may only be imagining reading that.you're right, can't remember where I read it this moment but yes there were a few at least that bit it.
if you're thinking of gods to fight, start with a less powerful one then Rovagug, he would wipe the floor with most other deities, it took Sarenrae working together with Asmodeous to JUST chain him up, Mythic Heroes, no matter how optimized, with superior tactics won't do more then get within a mile of him.
instead focus the thread on deities you Might be able to get a shot in before going SPLAT against the wall.
p.s. i'm not mad, just haven't figured how to make words bold:)
I don't have the quote, but James Jacobs said that the over-all strength of the deities back during the fight with Rovagug has waned. The Gods that have formed since then, such as Norgorber, Irori, Iomodae etc. are weaker than the ones that previously existed. He said that if Rovagug were to break free, the Gods of today wouldn't succeed in re-chaining him.
This is leading me to believe more and more in the Aroden theory linked above by Tirisfal.
This theory is still my favorite.
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I agree with the theory Trisfal cited. It makes sense plus with the mural in the Tomb of the Iron Maiden with Asmodeus standing over the remains of Aroden, it comes to my suspicion that he let the devil king slay him in order to destroy fate, at the smal cost of one human nation. But while people would say that Asmodeus wouldn't try to overthrow the world order, he is also one of the major components and enemy of Rovagug, a thus would see the sacrifice of prophecy as the only way to stop Rovagug.
But Pharasma must also be somewhat in on it as well due to the fact that one of the main aspects of her divine portfolio had to be destroyed in order to stop Rovagug.
Thus in addition to this theory I add the addition of two other gods to this divine execution, Asmodeus and Pharasma, who together at his request ended Aroden's own life.
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I agree with the theory Trisfal cited. It makes sense plus with the mural in the Tomb of the Iron Maiden with Asmodeus standing over the remains of Aroden, it comes to my suspicion that he let the devil king slay him in order to destroy fate, at the smal cost of one human nation. But while people would say that Asmodeus wouldn't try to overthrow the world order, he is also one of the major components and enemy of Rovagug, a thus would see the sacrifice of prophecy as the only way to stop Rovagug.
But Pharasma must also be somewhat in on it as well due to the fact that one of the main aspects of her divine portfolio had to be destroyed in order to stop Rovagug.
Thus in addition to this theory I add the addition of two other gods to this divine execution, Asmodeus and Pharasma, who together at his request ended Aroden's own life.
Which also explains why Pharasma then sought out Aroden as one of her servants in death. He may have lost his portfolio and powers, but he still remains powerful and important.
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I thought there were other older gods that died in the battles that chained Rovagug in Golarion, or is that such old history that it doesn't count? Although I may be entirely wrong about that and I may only be imagining reading that.
There are some 'holes' in the Golarion 'pantheon,' thematically, so it could be neat to fill them with these gods who didn't survive the battle with Rovagug.
The childless goddess of childbirth is one, but also the unmarried, homeless and family-less god of marriage, home and family.
Having one or more of Pharasma's children having been lost in the fight, and / or Erastil's spouse and kids, would help explain why they don't seem to represent their portfolios or areas of concern, and why so many of Golarions gods (everyone but Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon, or Torag and his extended family) are unrelated and unattached and some combination of childless / orphaned / only children / alone in the universe.
Pun Pun?
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Livia did it.
(History of Rome joke)
You're right, you're crazy :P
Yay! I was right!
But I get what you're saying... does this mean I need help too?
Yes. You need to help... yourself to a cookie!
Mystra's another one who had relatively few major churches or followings, since she was something of a 'magic-user goddess' with little to offer (or interest) the other 99% of people who weren't wizards.She had a very strong power-base in Halruaa.
That said, Mystra's a bit of a funny case, because she's also the Weave, which means that the more people spread and use magic, the stronger she can get. That's why Ao mandates that she deposit chunks of her power inside mortals - if she had all of it, she'd be the strongest by far. I don't ever recall any other deity actually reaching that level, though. A lot of the 2E Planescape material would also apply here - belief works just as well as active worship.
I thought there were other older gods that died in the battles that chained Rovagug in Golarion, or is that such old history that it doesn't count? Although I may be entirely wrong about that and I may only be imagining reading that.
What I meant by "first to die" is that he's "first to die by a mysterious cause" i.e. even the gods have no idea what happened (except, perhaps, for Pharasma).
Actually, yeah. I forgot to mention that point. Also, at one point I presumed that "Chosen" each require a "half divine rank" (it notes that it "costs" her "power" to create a Chosen, but it's unclear how), as it were (so she can sacrifice a divine rank to create two Chosen instead of one Proxy). With the known Chosen of hers and Azuth's ranks (because she definitively is the source of his divnity) I counted up to something like Divine Rank 34, making her an Overdeity, by technicality.
Pun Pun?
... hm. It's possible, but why haven't Kobolds risen?
Did I already suggest that he's toiling in the salt mines with all the Greyhawk gods, below Castle Waldorf? If not, I do so now.
That made me think... Maybe Zagig Yragerne captured him and stored together with other deities in the depths of Castle Greyhawk?
I now think Aroden was tricked into committing suicide, by a parasite called lash.
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I think Aroden just faked his death and living in the guatemalan mountains with Elvis, Tupac, Lisa Lopez and Kurt Cobain
So we have proof that Aroden actually DID die?
Well... there goes a bunch of my theories and a ton of my back-story...
It would have been far more useful if he were just 'presumed dead'. Putting limitations on such a major plothook is 'subtractive design', IMHO.
Ah, well... I can just choose to ignore it...
But I like Grey goo! :P
Its really no big deal - my setting is an amalgam of several worlds (primarily FR and Gol), so I've changed so much this doesn't really matter.
This theory is still my favorite.
Thats VERY interesting... especially if we add Groetus into the mix, as another poster suggested.
Thus, Rovagug is once-again defeated (as per the biblical analogy), but that event itself ushers-in the 'end of times' that Groteus is after (So Rovagug may be one of those 'primal forces of the universe', and by destroying him, the universe begins to unravel).
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So we have proof that Aroden actually DID die?
Pharasma and Paizo development people have 'proof' that Aroden died. Anybody on Golarion can assume whatever they like, and evidence will tend to support some theories over others, but barring some sort of mythic power of omniscience, they can't prove nuthin.'
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Rovagug has basically been outed as an ascended qlippoth lord - given the concept of chaos and destruction that the "ancient Abyss" embodied in the form of the qlippoth, the release of Rovagug would necessitate widespread devastation that culminates in the end of time. Which would lead to your inclusion of Groetus.
When you go back that far, there's a fine line between 'ascended lord of' and 'original deity of'. See also: Asmodeus and Sarenrae.
Huh. Those are also the most prominent of the Gods in the chaining of Rovagug. Interesting.
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Personally I've always been of the opinion that engaging in an activity that is the domain of a God is actually an act of worship for that god (or gods in the case of multiple gods with the same domain or an activity that falls under multiple gods domains). In this way even if gods' existence is tied to their worship unless you kill concept or divorce the god from the concept he'll still have something sustaining him (even if to a lesser degree than straight 'true' worship).
Of course I'm fine with the idea that there are evil gods that neutral and good people worship out of fear -- much like the ancient gods that people would worship to placate instead of out of devotion. These gods aren't their primary deity or even one they like but are treated much like crossing the ocean after offering tribute to Poseidon, in the hopes he doesn't wreck your ship.
Golarion Gods are not sustained by worship. This has been stated over and over again.
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Golarion Gods are not sustained by worship. This has been stated over and over again.
I didn't think he was saying they were, correct as you were. I just kind of thought he was talking about his ideas.
But yeah, Golarion gods aren't sustained by worship.
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Yeah, note the following:
In this way even if gods' existence is tied to their worship unless you kill concept or divorce the god from the concept he'll still have something sustaining him (even if to a lesser degree than straight 'true' worship).
That bit means that IF it is -- not that it has to be.
Even if not sustain through such means (acceptable to me by the way) that this could still lead to them getting some worship simply by having something very common in their portfolio.
Another thought:
I am also of the opinion (and comfortable with the idea) that different gods are sustained by different things. Some may be like super oracles and sustained by the thing they represent itself, while others might be like reverse clerics and reliant on worship to get their power. Others might be harvesting a source for their empowerment (the starstone for example), while others might gain and grow in power by directly defeating other gods. Heck some might simply be self generating too, or some combination of all the above. Going as far a field as a wizard or technogod that builds a 'god machine' that draws the power (or collects/ makes it from whatever) and pushes it into the god.
To me it makes as much sense as different people having different motives and different characters (and classes) having different paths and powers and sources for that power.
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I am also of the opinion (and comfortable with the idea) that different gods are sustained by different things. Some may be like super oracles and sustained by the thing they represent itself, while others might be like reverse clerics and reliant on worship to get their power. Others might be harvesting a source for their empowerment (the starstone for example), while others might gain and grow in power by directly defeating other gods. Heck some might simply be self generating too, or some combination of all the above. Going as far a field as a wizard or technogod that builds a 'god machine' that draws the power (or collects/ makes it from whatever) and pushes it into the god.
To me it makes as much sense as different people having different motives and different characters (and classes) having different paths and powers and sources for that power.
In Golarion, there are multiple ways to become a god (Starstone scions, personal ascendence like Irori, Urgathoa, Aroden and Nethys, born that way like Shelyn and Dou-Bral, always was like Pharasma, jumped-up outsider like Asmodeus, Lamashtu and perhaps Sarenrae, Elder Thing From the Outer Dark like Desna, etc.), so it makes perfect sense that not every god has the exact same 'feeding requirements' to maintain or grow that status.
It's entirely possible that some gods (Pharasma, in particular) are so vital to the workings of the universe that if she did die, the universe would spit a replacement out immediately, so that her role did not go unfilled, sort of like how the Abyss / Maelstrom occasionally churn out new demons / qlippoth / proteans.
It's entirely possible that some gods (Pharasma, in particular) are so vital to the workings of the universe that if she did die, the universe would spit a replacement out immediately, so that her role did not go unfilled, sort of like how the Abyss / Maelstrom occasionally churn out new demons / qlippoth / proteans.
This reminds me of the Abyss and iathavos.
Abraham's ideas about divinity cover with lots of my ideas about divinity.
Set I'm entirely comfortable with that too -- in which case they are more a universal component (like physics) than an individual even if they act the case.
Heck it could be that getting the right domain or job could make you a supra-lich sort of thing where regardless of what happens you just pop back up.
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"Immediately" in a cosmic sense might still be a rather long time to mortals.
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Interesting... so the when Aroden died mortals might not have known about it for a while...
When Pharamsa dies she might have time to judge herself simply because time hasn't caught up with the mortal perspective yet...
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I meant more along the lines of "If Pharasma died or the Boneyard broke down, we might be treated to a generation of The Walking Dead (where everyone comes back as Undead because the spirit can't move on.) Or of Miracle Day, where no one can die no matter how much pain they're in. Or of Children of Men, where no one can have children (because Pharasma is also goddess of birth.)"
Eventually, the Gods will settle their turf war over her portfolio, or create a new God to fill the vacancy, or maybe Urgathoa would take over the spot and Death itself would behave differently. And to the Gods, that might seem like a very fast changeover (what is 20 years when you're older than humanity and expect to be around for the End of All Things.) But to us puny mortals, 20 years of Zombie Apocalypse is Very Very Bad.
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The fun bit would be that if Pharasma 'died,' she'd then finally get to get out of that chair and maybe reincarnate and get to do something other than judge, judge, judge all day long, forever.
Eventually someone would end up running the Boneyard. Maybe Urgathoa, maybe a newly formed entity that the Boneyard created to fill the vacancy (perhaps even arbitrarily grabbing the next person in the line to be 'sorted' and filling them up with divine power and tractor beaming them into the bony throne!) maybe Desna, for all we know, re-interpreted as some death's head moth lady who kindly oversees the transition from the 'larval' state of mortality to the colorful floating 'butterflies' of petitioners -> outsiders.
And she-who-was-Pharasma skips off into the distance, singing 'free at last!'
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There is also distinct possibility that one one would notice the difference as the new deity of death would becomes the same as the previous one. Or the universe itself would adapt to that change retrospectively and no one would be the wiser...
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Or the universe itself would adapt to that change retrospectively and no one would be the wiser...
This reminds me of how I interpret the sum total of ideas presented within Forgotten Realms of divinity and the universe at large. History remains the same. Concurrent and past reality changes, however.
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[crazy rant]
Time, like space, is expanding in all directions.
The longer it goes on, the further away the end of time actually becomes, so we'll never actually reach it.
More importantly, the longer it goes on, the further back in time creation is, and the more history is 'discovered to have happened' in the ever-expanding ginnugagap.
There weren't ever dinosaurs, for instance, until the past grew big enough to accommodate them, and they got filled in. Now they always were.
[/crazy rant]
That makes me think of Glorantha's Godtime.
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maybe Urgathoa would take over the spot and Death itself would behave differently.
How much would the universe change if Pharasma was unseated, Urgathoa took over Death, Lamashtu took over Birth, and Fate stayed kaput?
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Huh. Those are also the most prominent of the Gods in the chaining of Rovagug. Interesting.
What if those players were the biggest in myth because they're being used as stand ins for themselves + their favored race? Sarenrae didn't beat Rovagug back into the cage: She and the combined legions over Angelkind did.
Asmodeus alone didn't seal the cage, but the combined weight of Hell did?
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maybe Urgathoa would take over the spot and Death itself would behave differently.How much would the universe change if Pharasma was unseated, Urgathoa took over Death, Lamashtu took over Birth, and Fate stayed kaput?
When you arrive at the Boneyard, you're given a choice: Move on, or go back. Move on and you head as a petitioner to wherever. Your body then raises as a skeleton or zombie or explodes into a rat swarm or some other undead / disease themed event. Go back, you are now a ghost, specter, wraith, ghoul, vampire, etc. Die again and you're onto the lower planes to fight for a spot in the "Not Daemon Lunch" pecking order.
Birth now has a very high maternal mortality rate, very low stillbirth rate, more children are born with defects than without, mutant babies abound, newborns are hardier and even more chaotic evil than before. After a few generations, even the humanoids are 'monstrous' now due to all their new found defects and mutations.
Also, all these new ugly folks become adventurers because they are no longer fated to be farmers or tailors. If fate came back, only 1% of the current adventurer population would survive, as more folks would be fated to the mundane instead of having dreams of grand adventure and daring.
Why wouldn't things get better? It's not like Pharasma is the omnibenevolent type.
Why wouldn't things get better? It's not like Pharasma is the omnibenevolent type.
They could, but that's less interesting as a campaign setting. Also, I those were the two Gods that came to mind off the top of my head for overlapping with Pharasma. Though, I suppose it could result in Abadar taking over the sorting of souls in his Judge role. Still leaves certain aspects of Death for Urgathoa and birth for somebody, with Lamashtu having hte best claim.
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Would the Psychopomps allow Urgathoa to take control? There are a huge number of demigod Ushers who would violently repel any attempt by a goddess of Undeath, and place one of their own as the new Pharasma.