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fighting an orc he has 28 hp total
had a feather whip token hit him for 11 points of non lethal
he broke one so this was over two seperate hits
after the first non lethal hit of 7 damage he was grappled and hit twice for 10 points of real damage
he then broke the grapple
then he was hit and grappled again for 4 points of non lethal damage
so 18/28 hp and 11 non lethal
he was then stabbed for 8 more points of damage in one attack
10/28 with 11 non lethal
Does his ferocity kick in allowing him to then draw and drink a CMW potion, or is he flat out unconcious.
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
That's a good question...are you below 0 hit points when its the non-leathal damage that is making you unconscious?
I would allow it.
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not half orc a real one
Ferocity (Ex)
An orc remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. It is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.
his hp loss was never below 0
That's a good question...are you below 0 hit points when its the non-leathal damage that is making you unconscious?
You are not brought ever brought below 0 HP through nonlethal damage and the K.O. from non lethal comes from non lethal's rules, not dying's rules. This lets one rules rape many of these "fight while dying" abilities. This issue of the d20 ruleset is why the infamous Deathless Frenzy of 3.5's Frenzied Berserker did not actually work. Dying would not stop the FB, but the FB's abilities did not actually affect non lethal's rules.
Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
EDIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not half orc a real one
Ferocity (Ex)
An orc remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0.
This wording is vague enough to be construed to as immunity to anything that would render an orc unconscious. It is that reading that would entitle the orc to bypass Non Lethal's Unconsciousness rule.
it specifically is for breaking the rule of disabled and dying with normal damage rules.
But as Harmor point out, some will read these abilities and interpret them as they are supposed to keep the orc swinging when he should be defeated and not let non lethal's technicalities get in the way of that.
It makes no sense that when you hit an orc really hard with a club over the head (lethal damage) he can ignore it and keep fighting, but if you slap him (non-lethal) he falls over and is out. That's just silly to interpret it like that.
While non-lethal does not actually get deducted from your HP total, I'd still say it counts for these types of abilities, because all else would be weird.
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It makes no sense that when you hit an orc really hard with a club over the head (lethal damage) he can ignore it and keep fighting, but if you slap him (non-lethal) he falls over and is out. That's just silly to interpret it like that.
While non-lethal does not actually get deducted from your HP total, I'd still say it counts for these types of abilities, because all else would be weird.
The difference between non-lethal and lethal is that one is an attempt to knock unconsious, and the other is an attempt to kill. A lethal attack is trying to stop the body from performing those life-giving functions, while a non-lethal attack is trying to knock someone out without causing any lasting harm. It makes sense that an orc's biology has a defense that keeps it going after losing a lot of blood (the dying condition), but leaves it utterly helpless when it has been the victim of several attacks whose purpose was to do little harm.
Ok, so the orc can stay awake with a greatsword in his kidney but not when he's been punched in the face?
Beat the rules lawyer with a copy of pride and prejudice.
Ok, so the orc can stay awake with a greatsword in his kidney but not when he's been punched in the face?
Beat the rules lawyer with a copy of pride and prejudice.
Unless he's an orc - then it won't help!
no it's not vague at all
it specifically is for breaking the rule of disabled and dying with normal damage rules.
If the fluff seems off, imagine all the movies where the big brute is fighting on despite a mortal wound, but in a prior scene was laid flat by the old bottle to the head routien. It's like that.
If you're at 10/28 with 11 non-lethal then you are not below 0 HPs, you have 10 HPs. As written the ability triggers when he's mortally wounded, not just any time he's KOed (be it an effect of non-leathal damage, or sleep, or anything else that has the effect of knocking you unconsious ... except being dying).
Ok, so the orc can stay awake with a greatsword in his kidney but not when he's been punched in the face?
Beat the rules lawyer with a copy of pride and prejudice.
Let's say there is an orc with 50 HP.
He takes 25 lethal damage and 26 non-lethal damage, leaving him unconscious.
If he then takes 26 more lethal damage, does he all of a sudden become conscious again when ferocity triggers as he is now at -1 hp?
The language is "remains" and "can continue", if you're already out then you're not currently consious (for orcs) or fighting (for half orcs), so can't remain so or continue to.
By that logic a single point of non-lethal damage would break the entire class feature.
By that logic a single point of non-lethal damage would break the entire class feature.
Even worse than that. No nonlethal damage breaks the class feature.
Once you've taken a single point of it, nonlethal damage always has a value, even what that it has been healed and that value is zero.
When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated.
So let's say an orc takes a nonlethal damage, then he heals it. Ten years later, he gets in a fight. He is reduced to -1 HP, but his ferocity should keep him up. However, he checks his nonlethal damage total and sees that he currently has 0 nonlethal damage.
Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
Since 0 > -1, his nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points so his nonlethal damage causes him to fall unconscious even though he has none. His racial ability prevents the LETHAL damage from knocking him out, but his grand total of no nonlethal damage is enough to take him under.
Unless he's an orc - then it won't help!
Sure it will.
Either he will be unconscious, at which point you can stop rules lawyering OR he will be conscious and demonstrating the very rule he said didn't work that way. Win win.
By that logic a single point of non-lethal damage would break the entire class feature.
Even worse than that. No nonlethal damage breaks the class feature.
Once you've taken a single point of it, nonlethal damage always has a value, even what that it has been healed and that value is zero.
Doesn't work like that though. The value of non lethal damage has to exceeds current hit points to be knocked out. A value of 0 can't. So, everyone technically having 0 non lethal damage since the time they were first spanked as a child is irrelevant.
I think the concern that this opens an easy loophole to bypass the ability is a bit misplaced too, considering it's not that easy to deal non-lethal damage in the first place since it will usually carries a -4 penalty to hit in most cases, and especially because heal spells heal both lethal and non-lethal damage concurrently. Meaning that Orc with 18/28hp with 11 non-lethal, gets an 11 point heal, that'll wipe out all his damage, both lethal and non-lethal. Additionally, non-lethal damage gets healed on an hourly basis, so it's rare to even need to spend healing resources to clear it once the fight is over. All of that is a big player advantage as far as economy of healing resources goes. If the DM is trying to use non lethal just to try rob you of one action, you should just supress a smile and let him, since you're getting the better of the bargain overall.
By that logic a single point of non-lethal damage would break the entire class feature.
Even worse than that. No nonlethal damage breaks the class feature.
Once you've taken a single point of it, nonlethal damage always has a value, even what that it has been healed and that value is zero.
That's extreme rules lawyering, and would mean that at 0 hit points, you're always staggered, which doesn't make sense when the Diehard feat states that you're staggered when using the feat. Why would Diehard have a "you're staggered when using this feat" clause if you could only use it when staggered?
On top of that, it would make Diehard a completely worthless feat.
When a rule REALLY makes no sense at all, and it's easy to interpret it in a way that would cause it to make sense, the second way is usually best.
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Ok, so the orc can stay awake with a greatsword in his kidney but not when he's been punched in the face?
Beat the rules lawyer with a copy of pride and prejudice.
I have to agree with BNW. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself does this make sense?
I have to agree with BNW. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself does this make sense?
It makes sense in adventure and fantasy fiction. The hero/villian fighting on with a sword in his gut, but getting knocked out by a broken bottle smashed on his head is one of the more common tropes.
Old thread but along the same line to try to give this direction.
If you fight an orc and bring them down to low or to negative, doing non-lethal damage at that point would immediately end the Ferocity or not even allow it to happen if they had not gone below yet.
You could just allow the Orc to continue fighting at whenever they were knocked unconscious equal to their con.
If they are unconscious at 10 hit points and have a 16 con? Then once they take 16 points of damage/non-lethal they fall. Thoughts?
FYI I didn't bother reading anything of the original post so if it was already covered I apologize.
But non-lethal damage causes a creature to go unconscious independently of getting knocked to below zero hp. The ferocity ability (regardless of it's source) only keeps you from going unconscious due to real damage. By RAW any amount of non-lethal damage will cause a creature under the effects of a ferocity ability to go unconscious. They would need to also be immune to non-lethal damage or its effects in order to stay awake.
The feat Flagellant for example, would allow a creature with a feocity ability to stay awake even when taking non-lethal damage.