Also I think urban barbarian should be paired with invulnerable rager because you want the rage bonus to go into most likely dex to boost offense and without the con bonus you become a little bit squishier but damage reduction helps negate that.
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Honestly, the hard part about rage powers is recognizing stinkers.
Flesh wound- looks good but consider that some enemies can do over 50-60 damage per hit at high levels and superstition doesn't work vs hits.
So you are saving with a bonus of about +30 with cloaks and con belts.
So VERY unlikely to make the save vs high damage hitters. Vs mooks it's ok.
Guarded Life, Gtr - How the well is this any good? You MAYBE get another round before dying.
I find a lot of the defensive powers lacking. (bar some gems-eater of magic). Offensive powers all the way
I'm currently playing around with a build with a 1 level dip into oracle for immunity to fatigue, then made a couple of discoveries I would like to share:
1) if you want to do any spell casting this build already needs some charisma, might as well start with a slightly lower strength, and then use the higher charisma you can get to pick up the eldritch heritage feat lines for something like abyssal or Orc that can get you +6 to STR permanently.
2) if you are doing that already might want to take a look at the Lore Mystery for sidestep secret to add charisma to AC instead of Dex. Not to mention the fun mindset of a raging bararian singing out the accomplishments of his tribe while wading through enemies.
As a barbarian, it is dangerous to go without either 15+ con for Raging Vitality, or else being a Urban Barbarian past early levels.
You need one of the two to avoid dying if you hit the negatives.
I reccomend against that much dex unless you're a CAGM barbarian.
I like perception... I also recommend acrobatics and intimidate. Intimidate for an eventual antagonize.
How's this guide comin'?
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You can click on the link, it's still up to date since I decided 'ahh screw it, all one page.'
If you don't wish to hunt for it, then I'll repost it here.
Awesome! I've been looking for something like this.
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Honestly, the hard part about rage powers is recognizing stinkers.
Flesh wound- looks good but consider that some enemies can do over 50-60 damage per hit at high levels and superstition doesn't work vs hits.
So you are saving with a bonus of about +30 with cloaks and con belts.
So VERY unlikely to make the save vs high damage hitters. Vs mooks it's ok.Guarded Life, Gtr - How the well is this any good? You MAYBE get another round before dying.
Die? Half-orcs don't die so long as they have rounds of rage left.
Take a look at the Deathless Initiate and Ferocious Tenacity feats, and imagine the synergy you can pull off with Guarded Life:
= = = = =
GM: "You take a hundred points!"
Sir Thugsalot: "Ok... I'm at 50hp right now, and am taking a 100 more... This drives me way below zero, so Guarded Life, Greater converts twice my barbarian level (10th at the moment) to nonlethal, or 20pts; the happens automatically so long as I am raging, and doesn't use an action. 80hp left as lethal, putting me at -30, which is beyond my current rage-CON of 28 -- so as an Immediate action I'll use Ferocious Tenacity to negate some of it. With a CON bonus of +9, I'll exchange 3 rounds of rage to negate 27pts of lethal damage. This leaves me taking 53 lethal and 20 non-lethal, putting me at -3. I remain conscience, am not staggered, and am now +2/+2 attack/damage due to Deathless Initiate.
GM: "Our eyes doth glaze over and ears filleth with wax. ...anyway, it's your turn.
Sir Thugsalot: <Chop!><Hack!><Slaughter!>
Cleric: "I ignore the supercork half-orc, and heal Timmy the Unfortunately Human Fighter."
GM: "Thugs? It's another axe crit, and you take a hundred more! ...are you finally dead yet?"
Sir Thugsalot: "Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated! Guarded Life, Greater knocks twenty off, leaving eighty. I trade six rounds of rage to negate 63, meaning I eat 17, leaving me at neg-twenty from the neg-three of last turn."
GM: *Sigh*
Sir Thugsalot: <Chop!><Hack!><Slaughter!>
Cleric: "I mass cure everybody 43 points.
Sir Thugsalot: "Aww.... I'm in the 'white' now; my Deathless bonus goes away. I'm +23; and all the 40 points of non-lethal is healed too."
GM: "The Boss Bad Guy gates in five mariliths. Sith mariliths from an alternate SAGA Edition Star Wars dimension. Each of them is wielding six large Great Lightsabers doing 3d8+freakloads and which ignore DR and hit your touch-AC. They carve you up like a roast."
Sir Thugsalot: "My sundered and cauterized fleshy bits bounce away to rendezvous and re-congeal under yonder davenport....I'll be back, in a moment!"
So it's brilliantbfor half orcs and not very good for others. Brilliant combo thpugh.
Curious as to the minimum to pull this off.
1 level of Unbreakable for Diehard and Endurance
All other levels as Indomidable Rager build. (With ferocious tenacity at some stage)
Downside here is no longer human so no MASSIVE superstition saves...
Sounds awesome at least.
Trinam this could be the 'Unkillable Barb' build.
I'll try to flesh out a CaGM barb with this. Any help apprecieated.
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You don't actually have to be an invulnerable rager for the build to work.Curious as to the minimum to pull this off.
1 level of Unbreakable for Diehard and Endurance
All other levels as Indomidable Rager build. (With ferocious tenacity at some stage)
Downside here is no longer human so no MASSIVE superstition saves...
True (but your saves will still be better than a human fighter or ranger). -- It'll be for a PFS character anyway (retire at 12th).
And you could pick up a rage round per level with half-orc alternate racial feature (would have about 40 rounds of rage by retirement at 12th; figuring you use less than half of that, it represents about 200pts worth of damage-avoidance due to Ferocious Tenacity).
Wouldn't Invulnerable Rager be better? You'll soak HP better and It will make your AC irrelevant
The only acceptable use of Wild Rager in most parties, unless you want your teammates to kill you.
That depends on the level you dip at.
I posted this in its own thread, but I thought I would post it here after reading about how a DEX build cannot be good. The builds below are at 8th and 15th level. Please enjoy and critique.
I still need some help from 15 to 20. Thanks in advance.
Half-Elf Invulnerable/Urban Barbarian
Traits: Dangerously Curious, ???
AC:18(19), w/rage 20(21) & Shield 24(25) & Mage Armor 26(27) (add +1 dodge bonus when adj to 2 or more enemies)
max Attack: 8+3+8=19(20)
Max Damage: 1d10+20 (22 vs. magic users)
CMB:14(16) + 2 sunder + 8 strength surge
CMD:25(27)
Stats:
Start LvL8 Rage
Str:13 13
Dex:18 22 26
Con:16 18
Int:10 10
Wis:10 10
CHA:10 10
Abilities & Feats:
1.from 1/2 elf (Exotic WP: Elven CurveBlade)
1.Weapon finese
2.DR1/
2.superstition
3.Power Attack
3.Extreme End. Hot
4.DR2/
4.Strength Surge
5.Imp. Sunder
6.DR3/
6.Fire Res. 1
6.Witch Hunter
7.Agile Maneuvers
8.Spell Sunder
8.DR4/
9.Improved Critical
9.Fire Res. 2
10.Eater of Magic
10.DR5/
11.Combat Reflexes
12.Come Get Me
12.DR6/
12.Fire Res. 3
13.Raging Brutality
14.Guarded Stance
14.DR7/
15.Dazing Assault.
15.Fire Res. 4
Gear:
+1 Haramaki
Belt +2 Dex/Con
+1 Adamantine, Agile, Furious (Elven Curve Blade)
Other feats:
Greater Sunder
Lvl 15
Half-Elf Invulnerable/Urban Barbarian
Traits: Dangerously Curious, ???
AC:36(37), w/rage 39(40) & Shield 43(44)(add +1 dodge bonus when adj to 2 or more enemies)
max Attack: 15+5+10=30(31)
Max Damage: 1d10+34 (38 vs. magic users)
CMB:22(25) + 2 sunder + 15 strength surge
CMD:33(36)
Saves Max:
Fort:+9 +4 +5 +3= +21
Ref:+5 +10 +5 +3= +23
Will:+5 +5 +3= +13
Stats:
Start LvL15 Rage
Str:13 13
Dex:18 25 +7 31 +10
Con:16 20
Int:10 10
Wis:10 10
CHA:10 10
gear:
+5 Haramaki
+3 admantine, agile, furious (elven Curve Blade)
+5 Amulet Nat armor
+5 ring pro
+3 Cloak Res
Ring of Evasion
+4 Belt of Physical Might
Various wands to buff and heal.
Before I say anything... Is sunder your only real manuver focus?
Before I say anything... Is sunder your only real manuver focus?
If you mean is that the only combat maneuver the character can do then no I can do any of them I just lose the +2 from improved sunder. My rage powers are set up to abuse sunder and rip arcane defenses to pieces.
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Also you provoke.
Anyways... It has potential, but I think it could actually be optimized better. Let me run some figures and I'll get back to you.
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Downside here is no longer human so no MASSIVE superstition saves...
Reminder: the morale bonus to saving throws granted by Superstition does not stack with the morale bonus to will saves granted by rage -- which means that a barbarian does not gain a huge amount from Superstition until the "teen" levels (i.e., past PFS retirement, if you're playing that). Rationale: most Fort saves do not come from magical or supernatural effects, and most Reflex saves against magic will be failed anyway (and the supercork barbarian tends not to care about raw HP damage anyway). -- But missing out on Haste, Heroism, Inspire Courage, etc., is a major PITA in a cooperative party environment.
I'm at work and also working on an EK/AA in another thread (appreciate your opinions on that too btw) but I'll try to get something together on my break.
Also you provoke.
Anyways... It has potential, but I think it could actually be optimized better. Let me run some figures and I'll get back to you.
True that :)
Thanks, I will wait for your number crunching. I to think it has potential, My mind has just been blanking on how to ring that last bit of Optimization out of it.
Dotted
Dotted.
I'll just crunch here.
The elven curve blade deals d10, 18-20/x2...
Scimitar deals d6 18-20/x2.
Importantly, the curve blade is -1/+3 vs scimitar -1/+2...
I like your stats where they are, let's make our hypothetical barbarian human to see.
No ECB means we free up a feat, and let's also drop agile manuvers, as our focus manuver works off of our weapon anyways. This gives us two feats to play with.
One is into Dervish Dance. The other should go into Extra Rage Power.
Next, I'm going to screw with the Rage Powers. We have one extra already, and I'm for leaving Strength Surge and Eater of Magic for later. (either one over Guarded life, tbh)
I like most of this setup... Ok. Here's my changes.
Dervish dance is our 3rd level feat, with power attack as our other level 1 feat.
That gives us this feat/rp progression:
1: power attack
1: weapon finesse
2: superstition
3: dervish dance
4: witch hunter
5: Improved Sunder
6: SPELL SUNDER
7: ERP (Lesser Beast Totem, remember that you can finesse claws)
8: Beast Totem (note that the amulet of nat armor increases your existing nat armor. This stacks.)
9: Improved critical or ERP (Reckless Abandon) (I lean towards the latter for reasons I'll explain later)
10: Greater Beast Totem (because pounce)
11: Combat Reflexes
12: CAGM
13: Dazing Assault (because your attack happens before theirs is rolled, this is defensive and offensive. You want this.)
14: EoM or Str Surge
15: ERP (the other of the two)
Honestly, I prefer abandon for this build, as it gives you a 'free' power attack with your attack, costing you only ac. This pays off with CAGM, for a bunch of attacks dealing PA damage and dazing at a net -5. This is super sexy. Dervish dance with a scimitar gives you the ability to avoid agile altogether, letting you get keen or an extra +1 without fear and avoiding that awkward choice of +1 agile vs +1 furious.
As far as actual damage goes, you lose 1 point per hit/4 levels, minus one if you go with the extra +1 over keen (I would not advise this, the dpr olympics proved the +1 is better). You also lose 2 damage from the die type change. That's all you lose because agile gives no 2hand bonus, so by 20 it's a total of 8 damage per hit. That's not insignificant, but I think it's worth the savings. The totem line also gives a powerful first turn, and an extra attack from your natural weapon on a full attack. Also extra natural armor for when you're not CAGMing. Let's see where damage would be at 8th and 15th...
8:
d6+8(dex)+6(pa)+4(furious +2 scimitar)= average damage of 21.5/hit.
Vs d10+8+9+3(remember, smaller bonus due to agile)=25.5/hit
But on a full attack, you get an extra claw for d6+4, which helps mitigate somewhat.
15:
d6+10+8+6=27.5/hit
d10+10+12+5=32.5/hit
Claw is d8+5
Also note the additional +1 means scimitar will hit 5% more often. As far as total damage goes, you don't lose much.
You gain a spare hand for potions or what have you, and trade dependence on a specific enchantment for an easier to manage dependence on scimitars. As a human, you have heart of the fields for quick rage cycling 1/day, and a superstition bonus of +2 better at 8th, then +5 at 15th.
Amusingly, reduce person would give you a +2 hit, +1 damage, +1 ac at the cost of 1 cmb/d... But you'd need an extra 2 str to keep PA online.
Those are my thoughts.
Is the guide linked above still being worked on? I really enjoyed reading what there is so far. :)
It is, but I am slow going about it.
No problem. I just wanted to know what I should hope for.
So far it's a good read, man. Thanks for putting it together.
No problem. I am all for helping others break things more efficiently.
IAmusingly, reduce person would give you a +2 hit, +1 damage, +1 ac at the cost of 1 cmb/d... But you'd need an extra 2 str to keep PA online.Piranha strike, ftw.
Not on a scimitar
Trinam,
Ok I see where you are going, and I like it. I think I started looking at this build when I saw the Curve blade and said let me build somthing to abuse it. It got my mind locked into only one way of thinking.
I do have some questions.
No ECB means we free up a feat, and let's also drop agile manuvers, as our focus manuver works off of our weapon anyways. This gives us two feats to play with.
If we drop agile maneuvers how successful will we be sundering until we get strength surge? at 8th (8+1+2+4=15) is this high enough to give me an 80% success rate or better. with agile maneuvers I'm at 8+8+2+4=22
As far as actual damage goes, you lose 1 point per hit/4 levels, minus one if you go with the extra +1 over keen (I would not advise this, the dpr olympics proved the +1 is better).
just to be clear you are saying don't get keen until endgame?
You also lose 2 damage from the die type change. That's all you lose because agile gives no 2hand bonus, so by 20 it's a total of 8 damage per hit. That's not insignificant, but I think it's worth the savings.
you are also losing the 1.5 x CON to Damage from Raging Brutality that is at least +9 more Damage lost per hit by Level 20. thoughts?
Amusingly, reduce person would give you a +2 hit, +1 damage, +1 ac at the cost of 1 cmb/d... But you'd need an extra 2 str to keep PA online.
That is why I made UMD a class skill go wand of bull's Strength, reduce person.
PS. What would you do for the last 5 levels I have been at a loss?
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I'll just crunch here.
The elven curve blade deals d10, 18-20/x2...
Scimitar deals d6 18-20/x2.
Importantly, the curve blade is -1/+3 vs scimitar -1/+2...
I like your stats where they are, let's make our hypothetical barbarian human to see.
No ECB means we free up a feat, and let's also drop agile manuvers, as our focus manuver works off of our weapon anyways. This gives us two feats to play with.
One is into Dervish Dance. The other should go into Extra Rage Power.
Next, I'm going to screw with the Rage Powers. We have one extra already, and I'm for leaving Strength Surge and Eater of Magic for later. (either one over Guarded life, tbh)
I like most of this setup... Ok. Here's my changes.
Dervish dance is our 3rd level feat, with power attack as our other level 1 feat.
That gives us this feat/rp progression:
1: power attack
1: weapon finesse
2: superstition
3: dervish dance....
So long as you fight only with a scimitar in melee, take a level of bard[dawnflower dervish] at 2nd level, and pick up finesse and dervish dance for free, and Battle Dance at +2/+2 attack/damage off a move action. Wear a buckler on your forearm (not "hand", which has to stay empty) and enjoy better AC.
Look through every rage power on the list, and see if the two least useful to you aren't still better than being able to cast 2nd-level bard spells and whatever else a bard gets through 4th level.
So long as you fight only with a scimitar in melee, take a level of bard[dawnflower dervish] at 2nd level, and pick up finesse and dervish dance for free, and Battle Dance at +2/+2 attack/damage off a move action. Wear a buckler on your forearm (not "hand", which has to stay empty) and enjoy better AC.
Look through every rage power on the list, and see if the two least useful to you aren't still better than being able to cast 2nd-level bard spells and whatever else a bard gets through 4th level.
Interesting Idea, however how do you get Weapon finesse for free, Bard Dawnflower only gives Dervish Dance in place of Bardic Knowledge.
Also how are you getting Battle Dance at +2? It uses Inspire courage as its base so you get +1 till 5th level then it goes to +2.
I would also need to find stat points to put into CHA to be able to cast any 1st level spells at 2nd Level.
In the end I don't think what I'm giving up or delaying is worth 1 feat and 2 first level spells.
Honestly, the hard part about rage powers is recognizing stinkers.
Flesh wound- looks good but consider that some enemies can do over 50-60 damage per hit at high levels and superstition doesn't work vs hits.
So you are saving with a bonus of about +30 with cloaks and con belts.
So VERY unlikely to make the save vs high damage hitters. Vs mooks it's ok.Guarded Life, Gtr - How the well is this any good? You MAYBE get another round before dying.
Die? Half-orcs don't die so long as they have rounds of rage left.
Take a look at the Deathless Initiate and Ferocious Tenacity feats, and imagine the synergy you can pull off with Guarded Life:
= = = = =
GM: "You take a hundred points!"
Sir Thugsalot: "Ok... I'm at 50hp right now, and am taking a 100 more... This drives me way below zero, so Guarded Life, Greater converts twice my barbarian level (10th at the moment) to nonlethal, or 20pts; the happens automatically so long as I am raging, and doesn't use an action. 80hp left as lethal, putting me at -30, which is beyond my current rage-CON of 28 -- so as an Immediate action I'll use Ferocious Tenacity to negate some of it. With a CON bonus of +9, I'll exchange 3 rounds of rage to negate 27pts of lethal damage. This leaves me taking 53 lethal and 20 non-lethal, putting me at -3. I remain conscience, am not staggered, and am now +2/+2 attack/damage due to Deathless Initiate.
GM: "Our eyes doth glaze over and ears filleth with wax. ...anyway, it's your turn.
Sir Thugsalot: <Chop!><Hack!><Slaughter!>
Cleric: "I ignore the supercork half-orc, and heal Timmy the Unfortunately Human Fighter."
GM: "Thugs? It's another axe crit, and you take a hundred more! ...are you finally dead yet?"
Sir Thugsalot: "Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated! Guarded Life, Greater knocks twenty off, leaving eighty. I trade six rounds of rage to negate 63, meaning I eat 17, leaving me at neg-twenty from the neg-three of last...
In your example, had Sir HacknSlash been an Invulnerable Rager would not 10 points of the 20non-lethal he was taking have been soaked by his non lethal DR?
Quick question about guarded life ferocious tenacity etc. what stops you from falling unconscious due to non lethal damage exceeding your current hit points? Diehard only keeps you conscious if your hp is negative, as far as I can tell non lethal still can knock you out. What am I missing?
I see your questions. Allow me to talk a lot!
With weapon finesse/dervish dance, agile manuvers is irrelevant to sunder. Sunder, because it works off your weapon, is a manuver subject to 'anything that would modify your attack roll' for that weapon. In this case, dervish dance. Your cmb to sunder is uneffected by agile manuvers.
Re: keen. Yes, that is what I am saying.
The raging + damage from con seems nice, but the rage round cost is too steep for my tastes.
And I like that wand combo.
I'll think on the last 5 levels a bit.
@Beebs: Nothing that I can see. Guarded life, maybe not so good in this combo?
See that's the problem. Some DMs track non- lethal separately to leathal. Otjers add it together.
The rage round cost is high, but hey, we are talking about NOT DYING. I'd trade rage rounds for that. Probably just as good a trade as raging brutality.....
Still working on a build.
1st level will be Unbreakable.
That ability I like a lot. Yes, it had a high rage round cost, but the return is much better than a small damage boost of that other ability.
Also it's best on a half orc with deathless so you have like infinity rage round anyways with one feat and a +1 merciful dagger.
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Well, OK; you don't get it cart blanche, but it's more or less built into Dervish Dance (because that feat covers both attack and damage). Thus the "So long as..." proviso.So long as you fight only with a scimitar in melee, take a level of bard[dawnflower dervish] at 2nd level, and pick up finesse and dervish dance for free, and Battle Dance at +2/+2 attack/damage off a move action. Wear a buckler on your forearm (not "hand", which has to stay empty) and enjoy better AC.Interesting Idea, however how do you get Weapon finesse for free, Bard Dawnflower only gives Dervish Dance in place of Bardic Knowledge.
Also how are you getting Battle Dance at +2? It uses Inspire courage as its base so you get +1 till 5th level then it goes to +2.Dawnflower bards get double the bonus, but their Inspire only affects themselves.
I would also need to find stat points to put into CHA to be able to cast any 1st level spells at 2nd Level.You don't need a positive CHA score for bardic performances (although it certainly helps on your uses per day).
In the end I don't think what I'm giving up or delaying is worth 1 feat and 2 first level spells.
Spells? What are those? (Answer: something you UMD out-of-combat AKA not-raging, because UMD is on your bard class list.)
= = = = =
BTW, I agree with whomever that Flesh Would is a totally worthless POS.
= = = = =
Guarded Life (& Greater) discussion: ....I suppose I could be convinced that the reason these rage powers exist because, sans Raging Vitality (not a CRB feat), barbarians beyond a certain level are insta-dead without them. (I.e., you almost have to take both of them as you level up.)
Obviously my Supercork Halforc will have to be reworked if such is the case.
= = = = =
That ability I like a lot. Yes, it had a high rage round cost, but the return is much better than a small damage boost of that other ability.
Also it's best on a half orc with deathless so you have like infinity rage round anyways with one feat and a +1 merciful dagger.
Merciful dagger? I don't get it.
Delicious terminology cheese with the destroyers blessing feat from orcs of golarion. Note that you must only succeed at the sunder attempt. Damage is rolled after success is determined, so you declare a sunder on a buddy after combat (or an enemy in it), hit, gain 1 rage round from it, and then roll damage... Nonlethal so the item is undamaged.
And you can sunder multiple times in a round, for 1 rage round.