It is only a DC 10 check to notice the sound of someone walking. Invisibility is solid against sight, but the other senses, not so much.
If they are not trying to be sneaky, yes. But if the completely unskilled wizard cast invisibility, then tries to sneak, the DC is d20 + 20. give the wizard a 14 dex(not uncommon for a level 1 wizard), and your DC is d20 + 22.
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ANY BARBARIAN WHO AM NOT ABLE TO DRILL THROUGH PRISM SPHEREY THING WITH LANCE AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN. LANCE AM STRONGER THAN MAGICY SPELL THINGS.
Yes. This. This sort of thing is what martial characters need in Pathfinder. And rogues, too. They should be able to Disable Device a prismatic sphere, or Escape Artist out of one.
I think the disparity begins with this one thought "I use magic so i can do this VS you dont use magic so you cant do that" it is the idea that you need magic to do anything big, any cool awesome BIG earth changing things that causes the disparity. Any time some non-caster tries to do something awesom, extream, superhuman, all the caster lovers start yelling "BROKEN, OVERPOWERED" but of course if you achieve the same thing with the backing of magic no one cries foul.
Actually you often get teh martial lovers being the bigest voices against non-casters doing superhuman things. The bigest opposition to things like tome of battle came from martial fans in my experience. Mostly because they didnt like the 'anime' feel to it, or that it felt too much like 'magic'.
SECONDED.I thought it was quite good.An original haiku, from my book of poetry:
STFU U
ROFLMAO
LOL JKAnd that is why I don't write poetry.
Off topic: Feeling the love guys. There is a political forum I belong to that has a few conspiracy theorists. I only respond to their posts in haiku form now, much to the amusement of all.
On topic: Any, and I do mean any, class can be munchkin'ed. It isn't too hard to do. But that is the fault of the PC and/or GM in question. A perfect gaming system would be every player playing the same character using the same dice rolls to determine the same actions. It's like RoShamBo where the only option is rock.
And I've stumbled upon my own conspiracy theory.
Rock = Warrior
Paper = Caster
Scissor = Thief
RoShamBo is obviously the Grand Unifying Game Theory.
You asked for a level 15 caster. Is he a level 15? Yes. Is he a caster? Yes. Is he a full caster? Yes. Does he meet your qualifications. yes. Are you moving the goal posts now? yes.
A melee druid at that level can do melee VERY well (especially with a velociraptor or big cat companion) and still have a full compliment of spells. All they need is enough wisdom to cast their spells and use buffs, heals, and annoyances like entangle that are a pain even if you make your save. magic fang lasts about as long you're going to be awake.
The same isn't true of melee clerics, melee clerics need their buffs to be really competitive, and most of those buffs have short durations. A druid really only needs beast shape, and around 7th level a druid has more hours of that than there are in a day.
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ANY BARBARIAN WHO AM NOT ABLE TO DRILL THROUGH PRISM SPHEREY THING WITH LANCE AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN. LANCE AM STRONGER THAN MAGICY SPELL THINGS.Yes. This. This sort of thing is what martial characters need in Pathfinder. And rogues, too. They should be able to Disable Device a prismatic sphere, or Escape Artist out of one.
BARBARIAN AM HAVING RAGE POWER CALLED SPELL SUNDER. IT AM LET BARBARIAN DRILL THROUGH MAGIC ITSELF. BARBARIAN AM HAVING OTHER RAGE POWER THAT ADD BARBARIAN LEVEL TO SUNDER CHECK. BARBARIAN AM HAVING NO PROBLEMS WITH MAGIC EFFECTS, BARBARIAN HAVE RED BULL TO DEAL WITH FATIGUE SO 1/RAGE NO BIG DEAL.
I thought Red Bull was for catching those obnoxious flying casters.BARBARIAN AM HAVING RAGE POWER CALLED SPELL SUNDER. IT AM LET BARBARIAN DRILL THROUGH MAGIC ITSELF. BARBARIAN AM HAVING OTHER RAGE POWER THAT ADD BARBARIAN LEVEL TO SUNDER CHECK. BARBARIAN AM HAVING NO PROBLEMS WITH MAGIC EFFECTS, BARBARIAN HAVE RED BULL TO DEAL WITH FATIGUE SO 1/RAGE NO BIG DEAL.ANY BARBARIAN WHO AM NOT ABLE TO DRILL THROUGH PRISM SPHEREY THING WITH LANCE AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN. LANCE AM STRONGER THAN MAGICY SPELL THINGS.Yes. This. This sort of thing is what martial characters need in Pathfinder. And rogues, too. They should be able to Disable Device a prismatic sphere, or Escape Artist out of one.
No, if Red Bull actually gave you wings, BARBARIAN would think you were a chicken and try to eat you. Not that he won't try anyway, but best not to give him incentive...
It is only a DC 10 check to notice the sound of someone walking. Invisibility is solid against sight, but the other senses, not so much.If they are not trying to be sneaky, yes. But if the completely unskilled wizard cast invisibility, then tries to sneak, the DC is d20 + 20. give the wizard a 14 dex(not uncommon for a level 1 wizard), and your DC is d20 + 22.
Being invisible doesn't affect perception checks to hear them, just to see them. Just like getting the dead condition limits what actions you can preform, even though it doesn't say that in the rules.
Meanwhile a rogue would need a cloak of elven kind(+5), a 22 dexterity(+6), and 6 ranks + class bonus(+9) to match what a wizard with 0 ranks and 0 dex can do with 1 spell. Even then, if the rogue doesn't have cover or concealment, they lose their ability to stealth.Technically, now with UC a human Rogue could take Extra Rogue Talent twice at first level to get the Ki Talent and the Vanish Ninja Trick. But yes, it's definitely a huge disparity normally.
A rogue can do anything, depending how lenient your GM is. In 3.0, I never rolled a Bluff check because I never actually lied. In PF, things are much better explained, but there is always a way around a problem for a rogue.
Because most people forget about Use Magic Device. The single best skill for a level 3+ rogue. A mid- or high-level rogue who doesn't invest in a Staff or two and neglects UMD is going to see a problem in power-level. On the flip-side, some thought-out preparation by a rogue can be devastating.
BARBARIAN AM HAVING RAGE POWER CALLED SPELL SUNDER. IT AM LET BARBARIAN DRILL THROUGH MAGIC ITSELF.
Me no am find this in books.
Spell Sunder is in Ultimate Combat. Maybe it did cause power creep ;)
It occurred to me that a nice campaign setting feature would be that high level characters are scarce on the Material Plane because their very presence causes things to start awakening/springing from nothing, to ravage the world/seek out the strong souls that caught their attention.I like that. A lot.
I used to make high-level spells carry a psychic "noise" associated with them that would tip off people to their use -- so if someone cast holy word, for example, every cleric within a mile was instantly aware of the fact. It made it impossible to gate in allies without the whole world being aware that this was happening. Maybe I should go back to that.
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Spell Sunder is in Ultimate Combat. Maybe it did cause power creep ;)
Is it under a different name, cause I couldn't find anything to sunder spell/spell sunder? Is it a feat?
I was homebrewing a couple of martial class abilities to disrupt spells for the fighter, barbarian and ranger. Would be nice if they put something in the offical rules as an ability.
Maybe so...but some power creep that lets melee deal with spellcasting is needed. I just find it annoying that most power creep goes to being able to hit things more or harder and not expanding the possibilities of what a meleer can do. I want my fight to be a greatsword with a bunch of swissarmy knife attachments.
My barbarian with a lucern hammer will definitely be taking this ability.
Spell Sunder is a rage power, not a feat. I was making a joke about power creep cause that is the thread that started this thread.
Again, I look to the barb, who can do a lot of things, sometimes they even deal with things that don't involve hitting things, which is somewhat ironic that the wild eyed barbarian has more problem solving abilities then the steely eyed fighter.
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Spell Sunder is a rage power, not a feat. I was making a joke about power creep cause that is the thread that started this thread.
Again, I look to the barb, who can do a lot of things, sometimes they even deal with things that don't involve hitting things, which is somewhat ironic that the wild eyed barbarian has more problem solving abilities then the steely eyed fighter.
When all you have is a sword, everything looks like exp.
You asked for a level 15 caster. Is he a level 15? Yes. Is he a caster? Yes. Is he a full caster? Yes. Does he meet your qualifications. yes. Are you moving the goal posts now? yes.
A melee druid at that level can do melee VERY well (especially with a velociraptor or big cat companion) and still have a full compliment of spells. All they need is enough wisdom to cast their spells and use buffs, heals, and annoyances like entangle that are a pain even if you make your save. magic fang lasts about as long you're going to be awake.
Not disputing any of that, but compared to a full fledged caster druid, I have a hard time calling a wildshap druid a "full" caster. That is like saying an elven wizard is a martial character because they can use longbows. A wildshape druid is primarily focused to deal damage in the same manner as a martial character. Their spellcasting is a secondary consideration.
PS-Do you really think that any level 15 encounter is going to think entangle is a hinderance?
Fighters put too much thought into it. Its ignorance that lets us barbarians do crazy stuff. We don't know better. A fighter asks how can I get around that magic wall...a barbarian says the walls in my way and hits it with a big hammer.
The fighter needs some kind of mechanic like the barbarian but having more to do with training and tactical thinking. Maybe something that gets tied into weapon and armor training. That's how I see the fighter playing things out.
i absolutly love spell sunder, it is my new favorite rage power
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BARBARIAN AM HAVING RAGE POWER CALLED SPELL SUNDER. IT AM LET BARBARIAN DRILL THROUGH MAGIC ITSELF.Me no am find this in books.
Spell Sunder is in Ultimate Combat. Maybe it did cause power creep ;)
BARBARIAN GONNA SAY THIS, BUT BARBARIAN CANNOT WIN UNITIATIVE ALL TIME. FERGYSIN BETTER NOT BE SQUISHY CASTER TYPE. BARBARIAN NO FEAR PRISM SHINY WALL.
Being invisible doesn't affect perception checks to hear them, just to see them. Just like getting the dead condition limits what actions you can preform, even though it doesn't say that in the rules.It is only a DC 10 check to notice the sound of someone walking. Invisibility is solid against sight, but the other senses, not so much.If they are not trying to be sneaky, yes. But if the completely unskilled wizard cast invisibility, then tries to sneak, the DC is d20 + 20. give the wizard a 14 dex(not uncommon for a level 1 wizard), and your DC is d20 + 22.
From the stealth rules
Special:
•If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
If you a using the stealth skill and you are invisible, you get a +20 to your stealth check, period. Stealth vs perception is an opposed check for someone to know you are there. That is RAW.
If you are invisible and just walking along, then it is a DC10 for anyone to hear you, but the moment you choose to use the stealth skill, boom +20. It is one of many reason why I don't like the current implementation of invisibility.
BARBARIAN AM HAVING RAGE POWER CALLED SPELL SUNDER. IT AM LET BARBARIAN DRILL THROUGH MAGIC ITSELF.Me no am find this in books.Spell Sunder is in Ultimate Combat. Maybe it did cause power creep ;)BARBARIAN GONNA SAY THIS, BUT BARBARIAN CANNOT WIN UNITIATIVE ALL TIME. FERGYSIN BETTER NOT BE SQUISHY CASTER TYPE. BARBARIAN NO FEAR PRISM SHINY WALL.
You win this thread. ::bows::
Fighters put too much thought into it. Its ignorance that lets us barbarians do crazy stuff. We don't know better. A fighter asks how can I get around that magic wall...a barbarian says the walls in my way and hits it with a big hammer.
The fighter needs some kind of mechanic like the barbarian but having more to do with training and tactical thinking. Maybe something that gets tied into weapon and armor training. That's how I see the fighter playing things out.
My next campaign is coming up, and while I was going to play a wizard or sorcerer, I think I'm playing a barbarian.
And don't explain the barbarian v. fighter thing to my PC. Captain Theodore Scratches (fighter) doesn't understand it when things don't die after he stabs them with a knife. He just stabs them again. Or grapples liches, yells at devils, and prays to gods he doesn't believe in.
On the flip side, Thok the Barbarian, who got his name for the sound his head makes whilst falling down stairs, has a healthy respect for things like doors and walls, for they keep baddies away from him. Just ask his brother Thwap the Lesser Barbarian.
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You win this thread. ::bows::
BARBARIAN AM WIN MANY MIGHTYFINE THREAD. BARBARIAN WIN EVERYTHING. EVEN CASTERS; BARBARIAN AM INBA.
...BARBARIAN USE SEMICOLON PROPERLY. AM PROUD.
If you a using the stealth skill and you are invisible, you get a +20 to your stealth check, period. Stealth vs perception is an opposed check for someone to know you are there. That is RAW.
If you are invisible and just walking along, then it is a DC10 for anyone to hear you, but the moment you choose to use the stealth skill, boom +20. It is one of many reason why I don't like the current implementation of invisibility.
In the description of dying it specifically states you go unconcious and can not act, and stay in that state until you die or become stable. But in the description of the 'Dead' condition, there is no limit on your actions, so once you leave the dying condition, you die and can get back up and keep fighting, at least according to RAW. Arguing that being invisible makes it harder to hear you makes as much sense as Dying allowing you to stand back up.
Casters are intended to be better.
There are things that non-casters excel at, of course. But "dueling a mighty wizard with all of his spells up" isn't supposed to be on that list.
There's nothing wrong with that. That's just the game we play. I wouldn't take it seriously as D&D if it wasn't like that.
So you have a solution to the 20th level Raging Dire-Bat riding Barbarian who just took a dislike to you?
I think the next time I GM I'm totally gonna have high level barbarians go around and slaughter random casters because they think it's totally metal.
...Arguing that being invisible makes it harder to hear you makes as much sense as Dying allowing you to stand back up.
I will take you up on that offer. Unless you make some obvious noise while doing some sneaking, how hard are people going to be listening actively? Everyone but the blind rely far too much on being able to see what they are looking for.
To me it makes perfect sense, and it is why there is a penalty to stealth while moving at full speed.
So you have a solution to the 20th level Raging Dire-Bat riding Barbarian who just took a dislike to you?
I think the next time I GM I'm totally gonna have high level barbarians go around and slaughter random casters because they think it's totally metal.
Rod of Greater Empower + Level Drain.
That wasn't really that difficult.
So you have a solution to the 20th level Raging Dire-Bat riding Barbarian who just took a dislike to you?
I think the next time I GM I'm totally gonna have high level barbarians go around and slaughter random casters because they think it's totally metal.
Rod of Greater Empower + Level Drain.
That wasn't really that difficult.
Whats the save on that. I bet a human superstitious barbarian can make it with ease. They have retarded saves against everything but non-magical traps (thats what HP is for).
It's a team game.
People might as well be arguing that quarterbacks rule the game because they're the only people who get to throw the ball.
If you ever feel useless, just talk to your DM. I'm sure any good DM can think of a couple ways to make you feel more useful in the next session and in the sessions following that.
... Stop playing with people who go out of their way to ruin your fun?
Don't think there is one. Ranged Touch attack, yeah?
Ah, thanks for reminding me. The appropriate name is Energy Drain, a ninth level Sorc/Wiz Spell.
You get to make a Fort Save after 24 hours.
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BARBARIAN AM GETTING BETTER NATURAL ARMOR FROM BEING MAD TO HAS POUNCE.
BARBARIAN AM GIVE UP AMULET SLOT LONG TIME AGO FOR PROTECTY-SCARAB BECAUSE BARBARIAN NO LIKE ENERGY DRAINY THINGS. BARBARIAN AM NOT INTIMIDATE BY PUNY CASTY DRAIN. SPELL NO HAS SAVE, BUT IS NEGATIVE LEVELS.
...ONLY 12 MAYBE THO. BARBARIAN CAN HIT CASTER AT -12 PENALTY STILL AND MURDER. JUST MAY MISS 4TH ATTACK. BARBARIAN AM WITCH HUNTER.
Not disputing any of that, but compared to a full fledged caster druid, I have a hard time calling a wildshap druid a "full" caster.
A druid can wildshape without being specced for it, besides natural spell. (and every druid takes that anyway)
A properly chosen, specced and geared (it amazes me that people forget to pimp theirs out) druid's animal companion is a decent melee character in its own right.
Your problem here is that you're claiming that casters have no stamina. Its not true of all casters. You're trying to somehow shoehorn your statement into reality... and its not happening.
That is like saying an elven wizard is a martial character because they can use longbows.
You're merging your statements with my opinions in a rather random fashion.
A wildshape druid is primarily focused to deal damage in the same manner as a martial character. Their spellcasting is a secondary consideration.
They can balance the two. Meeting the technical requirements of what you were looking for just requires that either 1) you have no spells 2) that the spells don't relate to combat. You're trying to wriggle out of your original statement.
PS-Do you really think that any level 15 encounter is going to think entangle is a hinderance?
Its a pain to any non giant humanoid encounter. At the very least it can block charges.
Casters are intended to be better.
So then why is everyone working off the same class/level/xp table?
And, more importantly, why are there even other classes, then? "I'll pretend to be the mighty wizard! You get to pretend to be my caddy!" is not a fun game for the caddy, for most people.
BARBARIAN AM GETTING BETTER NATURAL ARMOR FROM BEING MAD TO HAS POUNCE.
BARBARIAN AM GIVE UP AMULET SLOT LONG TIME AGO FOR PROTECTY-SCARAB BECAUSE BARBARIAN NO LIKE ENERGY DRAINY THINGS. BARBARIAN AM NOT INTIMIDATE BY PUNY CASTY DRAIN. SPELL NO HAS SAVE, BUT IS NEGATIVE LEVELS.
...ONLY 12 MAYBE THO. BARBARIAN CAN HIT CASTER AT -12 PENALTY STILL AND MURDER. JUST MAY MISS 4TH ATTACK. BARBARIAN AM WITCH HUNTER.
And that amulet's protection applies to the mount?
This is basically a moot point, as casters have every advantage with the exception of AC, which belongs to Fighters, and DPR, which goes to either Fighter or Barbarian. Rogues: sorry, you got nothin'.
However, casters could never compare with non-casters in the getting laid competition. Who is the hot, rich, horny young princess that the PC group just rescued from the dragon gonna grapple between the sheets with: The stringbean Wizard with braces, bifocals and acne?
Or, would she rather get naked with the bronzed martial god with sculpted abs and 24-inch biceps? Even Rogues score better than Wizards here cause they got the rebellious "bad boy" factor going for them!
Casters have power but non-casters get the girls!
The one exception here is Bards, they are casters and beat everyone hands-down in the poon competition. Nobody can compete with their boy-band appeal, after all.
I'm sooooooo tired of this discussion. If the game was about which class could beat which other class at level 20 it would be a perverse combination of WoW and Soul Calibur. But it's not. It's about working together as a team to overcome obstacles, telling an awesome story, and hanging out with your friends.
WHO FREAKIN CARES IF CASTERS ARE BETTER THAN MARTIAL CHARACTERS? NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY CASTERS!!!
I see threads like this and I just weep for the gaming community.
WHO FREAKIN CARES IF CASTERS ARE BETTER THAN MARTIAL CHARACTERS?
NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY CASTERS!!!
Your second sentence answers the first.
To be perfectly honest, I play whatever my group needs. I can tailor a backstory to fit the character's class that I am going to play without much issue. My only exception is playing a healer of some sort. I always feel guilty if I can't keep people alive.
I'm sooooooo tired of this discussion. If the game was about which class could beat which other class at level 20 it would be a perverse combination of WoW and Soul Calibur. But it's not. It's about working together as a team to overcome obstacles, telling an awesome story, and hanging out with your friends.
WHO FREAKIN CARES IF CASTERS ARE BETTER THAN MARTIAL CHARACTERS? NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY CASTERS!!!
I see threads like this and I just weep for the gaming community.
I reckon you're taking this thread a wee bit too seriously. Take a cue from our friend teh mighty BARBARIAN filled with awesomesauce.
Your second sentence answers the first.WHO FREAKIN CARES IF CASTERS ARE BETTER THAN MARTIAL CHARACTERS?
NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY CASTERS!!!
In that people who want to play casters care that their characters are "better" than the martial characters in the party?
I just think that discussions and comparisons like this put the game at risk. This was one of the biggest complaints in 3.5, and in trying to fix it Wizards gave us the monstrosity known as 4th Edition.