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Does this help you?
-James
I see you ave carefully avoided the more deranged scenario of the guy using the sword as his primary weapon, the spikes as his secondary and getting full benefits from the shield.
Tank and gank in one neat package.
Like in the 2 handed +spike/kick and c scenario you get to have 1.5 time your strength bonus on the 2 anded weapon and 1/2 your strength bonus to damage on the spikes.
Using 3 "hands" worth of weapons and/or shields while getting the penalties of using 2 sound wrong to me. I repeat, will you care to give the link or reference to what you are citing? I am curious to see who was the guy replying.
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
So it does say "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand". If it had said "Primary Attack" then this would not be an issue.
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Again "Primary Hand" not "Primary Attack".
So a character wielding a one-handed weapon is good to use a variety of weapons (Spiked Armour, Shield Bash, Unarmed Strike, Spell charge) as their "Off Hand", but RAW does not permit a Two-Handed Weapon as a primary attack. (Yes I know about double weapons - but they count as a One-Handed and Light Weapon)
So I am in the "You Cannot gain the benefit of the TWF Feat while weilding a two-handed weapon" and almost in the "You Cannot use the TWF rules while weilding a Two-Handed Weapon" - I would be in that group as well, if it were not for the ability to attack with Natural Weapons in addition to Manufactured Weapons rules.
As long as we're all clear...
It's fine, it's allowed, you absolutely can do it. You can do it in PFS, and in any situation that is using the Pathfinder rules as written. Disallowing it is a house rule.
Your character's not going to win the DPR Olympics or any sort of optimization contest, but you're certainly allowed to wield a greatsword (or a longsword and shield) and also make an unarmed attack or attack with armor spikes.
This - "Or do you believe that they can make a TWF attack, but cannot gain the benefits of the TWF feat in this way?"
TWF says the benefits are granted for a weapon in the primary hand, not the primary attack.
I am happy for the above fighter to be wielding the armoured spikes (so that they can make AoOs with them), I am just not happy with them being used effectively in a fight in addition to a two-handed weapon. Therefore the -4/-4 to hit looks right to me. (Also there is the issue of the additonal Strength bonus Two-Handed (1.5) and Off Hand (0.5) vs Primary (1.0) and Off Hand (0.5)
I know that Natural Attacks are effectively -0/-5 attacks that can be used with any other full round attack combination and I can see why people are agruing that they (Natural Attacks) are the reason to allow Two-Handed/Off-Hand Two Weapon Fighting.
I hope the arguments presented here are considered when this topic if FAQ'd (Please don't forget the multi-armed Eidolons when clarifying the rules. I have only been able to find 1 multi-armed monster wielding anufactured weapons that doesn't have the Multi-wepaon Master {Ignore All penalties for fighting with multiple weapons} and that uses light weapons across all arms, so not much use on this issue.)
I had -4/-4 because I was rushed and didn't look up the rule - it should be -4/-8 for using an off hand weapon that is light.
I believe that I am quoting RAW with the statement about Primary Hand (Thus a Single Handed Weapon) vs TWF being used with a 2-Handed weapon as the primary attack.
As I am playing a Fighter in my next campaign I would like to be wrong on this. I would like to see the FAQ include rules not just for the Humanoids, but also for multi-armed creatures.
I agree it can be done only because of the Natural Weapons and Manufactured Weapons rules (As found here.)
I believe that the Feat cannot be applied because of the "Primary Hand" wording of the feat.
Because if that rule did not exist then I would be happy in saying that it cannot be done, as all your strength goes into wielding the Two-Handed Weapon.
Yes, I agree that a PC can Wield a Two-Handed weapon and Armour Spikes and use Two-Weapon Fighting to attack with both as part of a full attack action (without the Feat).
Another GM I have talked to about this says that attacking with a Two-Handed Weapon effectively uses your Off-Hand for that attack and thus you cannot use any other (Non Natural Attack) with a Two-Handed Weapon.
So my question is how does the Thunder Striker work then.
It focuses on TWF with a Two hander and a Buckler.
However there is no ability that suddenly allows this style it assumes you can do it and goes on to lessen the penalites.
Where is ThUnder Striker from? Can you link to it.
The Thunderstriker (Fighter Archetype) does not explicity state the use of a Two-Handed weapon and the buckler, just the use of a "heavy weapon" being gripped in two hands then a switching of posture. The "Blades, Heavy" group includes the Longsword and other weapons that are able to tbe used one handed.
Now I know what to look for I will look to see if there are any clarifications of this archetype in the UC product forum.
However that assumes there is a nessary condition which i believe the thunderstriker shows to be a fallacy.
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The question is under what conditions are you allowed to take advantage of the TWF feat.
Okay, now there is more than just you in this debate and it's good to get everyone on the same page.
We agree that one can make attacks with a greatsword and armor spikes as well as barbazu beard, boot blade and an improved unarmed strike all in one round (say with a 16BAB) without using either two-weapon fighting or needing to 'draw' etc.
2 hands on the greatsword, 2 elbow attacks with the armor spikes,1 head attack and 2 kick attack?
A total of 7 "hands" worth of attacks? Next time I use a Marilith in game I should give her armor spikes or she would feel cheated that a mere 1 level mortal with 2 arms will be capable of making as much attacks as her.
You should add spiked crampons for two extra stomp attacks.
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So a character wielding a one-handed weapon is good to use a variety of weapons (Spiked Armour, Shield Bash, Unarmed Strike, Spell charge) as their "Off Hand", but RAW does not permit a Two-Handed Weapon as a primary attack.So you're of the opinion that one cannot wield a two-handed weapon and armor spikes at the same time?
Likewise one cannot wield a two-handed weapon and make an unarmed strike, barbazu beard attack, or boot blade attack?
Is that correct? It's good to see where along the lines there is the disconnect, so it can be addressed.
Or do you believe that they can wield both at the same time, but when they go to make a TWF attack (without the feat) that they cannot do so?
Or do you believe that they can make a TWF attack, but cannot gain the benefits of the TWF feat in this way?
Thanks,
James
Wield and use are 2 different term. You can wield them at the same time (i.e. chose to use one or the other as a free action, it is the basis of some reach build).
Using them with the same iterative attack is for me is unacceptable as you would be using 3+ hands of weapons.Just to point it out, the barbazu beard is in the same book that allow hellknight paladins, something that has deemed an error by the developers.
Before I start, I'd like to commend James for keeping up his civil diligence in the face of the opposition. I could not (and have not) done that, but I'll continue to discuss just the same.
I don't see any contradiction in the thunderstriker rules to TWFing as I've explained.
Hardbuckler allows you to use the buckler to make shield bash attacks. Hammer and anvil lets you gain get only half the normal penaltie for twf for using a buckler as an offhand weapon.
Nowhere obviating the usual TWF requirements.
Really? Nothing different than normal TWF? Even though Thunderstriker EXPLICITLY states you can use a Buckler (to shield bash) as an Off-handed attack to be used IN CONJUNCTION with a two-handed weapon thus constituting Two Weapon Fighting?
Why is this needed to be called out in the Thunderstriker?
1. The buckler usually cannot make a bash attack.
2. It is the only shield you can wear (wield) while also wieding a two handed weapon.
3. Even if the bash attack could be made under normal circumstances you still could not make it, as you have used both your arms to attack with your 2h weapon and could not bash with the shield. (Cant use the limbs twice to make an attack [you will note that this is different than Armor Spikes or Barbazu Beards or Blade Boots as they do not use the hands or arms])
2 hands on the greatsword, 2 elbow attacks with the armor spikes,1 head attack and 2 kick attack?
Uh.. as CP has noted above you can only use one set of armor spikes as an off-hand as per the written description of Armor Spikes. If you do, you forfeit all other off-handed attack options. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) Also, you only get 1 off-hand attack during a Full Attack without feats, so the character you describe would have to be pretty high level (at least level 11 for Greater TWF).
But, I do enjoy an exercise in hyperbole.
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2 hands on the greatsword, 2 elbow attacks with the armor spikes,1 head attack and 2 kick attack?Uh.. as CP has noted above you can only use one set of armor spikes as an off-hand as per the written description of Armor Spikes. If you do, you forfeit all other off-handed attack options. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) Also, you only get 1 off-hand attack during a Full Attack without feats, so the character you describe would have to be pretty high level (at least level 11 for Greater TWF).
But, I do enjoy an exercise in hyperbole.
It was a reply to this post by James.
Okay, now there is more than just you in this debate and it's good to get everyone on the same page.We agree that one can make attacks with a greatsword and armor spikes as well as barbazu beard, boot blade and an improved unarmed strike all in one round (say with a 16BAB) without using either two-weapon fighting or needing to 'draw' etc.
Re-reading it the "16 BAB" comment probably mean that his character is doing a 2 handed weapon attack at +16, a armor spike attack at +11, barbazu beard at +6, boot blade at +1 and unarmed strike at +16 (hasted).
If that was his meaning, ok, but he could have made his post much clearer, as at a first reading it seem advocating the possibility to do all the attacks at once.
As he is already advocating the possibility to use a "3 limbs" combat stile extending it at even more wouldn't be so surprising.
Probably I fall in the same kind of error with this phrase:
Using them with the same iterative attack is for me is unacceptable as you would be using 3+ hands of weapons.
While writhing it it seemed clear to me, re reading it it can be misunderstood.
What I mean is that using a 2 handed weapon and another form of attack (barring specific archetypes powers or extremely specific items like the barbazu beard that explicitly bypass the normal rules) with the same attack (i.e. the attack at +16 BAB of the above mentioned character) is unacceptable as you are using 3 limbs of attacks, while a normal humanoid creature get only 2 limbs of attacks.You can certainly use different weapons with the different attacks of your iterative attack routine, but (for me) you should never exceed the 2 limbs in use at the same time limit.
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BTW, the 3.5 FAQ
If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack?When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon. If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes.
While I disagree with the ruling at least posting it with the first phrase make clear what is the base of it.
The person writing the FAQ felt that you are always entitled to a extra attack if you had multiple weapons.
Another GM I have talked to about this says that attacking with a Two-Handed Weapon effectively uses your Off-Hand for that attack and thus you cannot use any other (Non Natural Attack) with a Two-Handed Weapon.And you can tell him he's wrong, right?
If nothing else you can reference the barbazu beard that spells it out directly, or the 3.5 FAQ entry that does as well. Both were quoted in this thread.
But I'm glad that we, and cp, are all on the same page as far as being able to use two-weapon fighting with a 2handed weapon and armor spikes (or other weapon that doesn't require an actual hand to use).
Now all that's left is to discuss the TWF feat about the penalties involved.
-James
3.5 FAQs are for the 3.5 rules, not Pathfinder.
The offline GM I have been talking to would happily allow the unique weapon Barbazu beard "can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beared with a two-handed weapon. Attacking with a barbazu beard provokes an attack of opportunity." He feels that this weapon that does lethal damge and provokes AoO by its use is not an example of a what most people would count as Spiked Armour.CP, if it was not for the Natural Weapon and their combined use with Manufactured weapons, I would say it is not possible to use a Two-Handed weapon and an off-hand weapon in a TWF style at all. I would argue that the person using the Two-Handed weapon is using their off-hand in wielding the weapon, as exampled by the increase in damage due to strength (which equals the damage due to strength done by an off-hand weapon).
The NW/MW combo allows for multiple uses of the off-hand strength which is why I say that TWF (Not the Feat) is possible with a Two-handed weapon and an off-hand attack (most likely from Spike Armour / boots or Improved Unarmed Strike, given the hands are already in use).
3.5 FAQ here for those looking for it. (/me dowloading now)
using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to
make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a
weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an
off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class
from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon?
Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an
off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for
using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when
pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that
and your armor spikes when grappling?
When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an
extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater
Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra
weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as
the extra weapon.
If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn
(or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you
use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack
action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light
weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a
shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases,
you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your
armor spikes.
Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon,
you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see
Table 8–10 in the PH). When using armor spikes along with a
two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed
weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the offhand
weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary
weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but
when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light
weapon in your off hand.
You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a
second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two
weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes,
you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with
the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and
the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in
Chapter 7 of the PH).
When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes
by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s
check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe
(see Table 7–5 in the PH) rather than the unarmed strike
damage you’d normally deal when damaging your foe with a
grapple check. Since you can use armor spikes as a light
weapon, you can simply use them to attack your foe. You
suffer a –4 penalty on your attack roll when attacking with a
light weapon in a grapple (see page 156 in the PH), but if your
foe is bigger or stronger than you, this might prove a better
tactic than trying to deal damage through a grapple check
because there is no opposed roll to make—you just have to hit
your opponent’s Armor Class. You can’t attack with two
weapons when grappling, even when one of those weapons is
armor spikes (see the section on grappling in Chapter 8 of the
PH).
You can’t attack and damage your foe if he has you pinned.
If you break the pin and avoid being pinned again, you can go
back to attacking your foe. If your attack bonus is high enough
to allow multiple attacks, you might break the pin and then use
your remaining attack to damage your foe. To accomplish this,
you must first use an attack to break the pin. You can break a
pin using the Escape Artist skill, but trying to do so is a
standard action for you; once you use the standard action to
attempt escape, you can’t make any more attacks during your
turn.
"Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon,
you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see
Table 8–10 in the PH). When using armor spikes along with a
two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed
weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the offhand
weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary
weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but
when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light
weapon in your off hand."
Change of wording used in FAQ vs Rulebook from "Primary Hand" to "Primary Attack". And yes the rest of the wording for the rules and feat are copied over.
I am therefore happy to change my view and say that it is legal to use the TWF Feat with a Two-Handed weapon.
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Wield and use are 2 different term. You can wield them at the same time (i.e. chose to use one or the other as a free action, it is the basis of some reach build).
Using them with the same iterative attack is for me is unacceptable as you would be using 3+ hands of weapons.
So must I draw my foot into my hand in order to kick? Really?
If a monk is carrying a fallen comrade with both hands, then they cannot kick cause they are using two hands to carry the comrade thus their foot doesn't have a free hand to use...
What I don't get is if you are wilfully dense or if you think that repeating a few times the same joke will make it better.
The problem is that you are using 3 limbs (clearer than using "hands" as you apparently don't get the meaning of the commas) at the same time.
The rules speak of using 2 limbs at a time and only specific archetypes and 1 specific item get to bypass that limitation. You are saying that the limitation don't exist.
That is a great way to cheapen the bonus of the archetypes. While interesting a .5 FAQ has very little value until confirmed by a Pathfinder FAQ.
I have been watching this thread closely, and I was hoping that someone would have a RAW counter for using an off-hand equivalent attack while wielding a two-handed weapon.
I see now that there will not be one, and it makes me sad. I understand that it is 100% legal. However, it leaves no mechanical reason to use any other method of TWF. The fact that you can get the 2x total Str bonus (or 2.5x w/ double slice) is what I dislike.
I know that TWF is in no way optimal, no matter how you go about it. I don't like that now 2H weapons are the king of ALL melee fighting styles.
Looks like it's time for a new house rule.
I see now that there will not be one, and it makes me sad. I understand that it is 100% legal. However, it leaves no mechanical reason to use any other method of TWF.
That's absolutely incorrect.
The mechanically optimal ways of using TWF involve:
a) weapon finesse
b) double weapons
c) two weapons that can share the same feats
Again, if your concern is balance, TWF with a 2H and a 0H weapon is not a problem, because it's inferior to other TWF builds as well as being inferior to straight two-handed builds. Nothing to worry about or houserule.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Just as a note, I don't see anywhere in the description of the thunderstriker archetype that allows the fighter to use a weapon in two hands, and also attack with a buckler in the same round. My reading of the archetype's abilities allow the fighter to switch easily from two-handed (where the buckler still provides a shield bonus) to one-handed (either attacking with a bastard sword or holding a pole-arm) and bashing with a buckler, and back again for the next round.
It's a nice fighting style, but so far as I read the description, it's not the same as using a two-handed weapon and TWF in the same round.
Just play a titan mauler barbarian and carry an over-sized bastard sword in your main hand.
I see now that there will not be one, and it makes me sad. I understand that it is 100% legal. However, it leaves no mechanical reason to use any other method of TWF.That's absolutely incorrect.
The mechanically optimal ways of using TWF involve:
a) weapon finesse
b) double weapons
c) two weapons that can share the same feats
Again, if your concern is balance, TWF with a 2H and a 0H weapon is not a problem, because it's inferior to other TWF builds as well as being inferior to straight two-handed builds. Nothing to worry about or houserule.
I might be placing too much emphasis on the greater STR bonus, but it seems like the the higher weapon damage and the extra .5 STR bonus makes this a superior TWF build. A rogue w/ two shortswords (kukris, whatever) might get more damage out of that combo, but I see no reason why a fighter w/ a decent STR score would pick any other method.
I'll put some basic builds together when I get home, I'm not convinced until I see some numbers.
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I see now that there will not be one, and it makes me sad. I understand that it is 100% legal. However, it leaves no mechanical reason to use any other method of TWF.That's absolutely incorrect.
The mechanically optimal ways of using TWF involve:
a) weapon finesse
b) double weapons
c) two weapons that can share the same feats
Again, if your concern is balance, TWF with a 2H and a 0H weapon is not a problem, because it's inferior to other TWF builds as well as being inferior to straight two-handed builds. Nothing to worry about or houserule.I might be placing too much emphasis on the greater STR bonus, but it seems like the the higher weapon damage and the extra .5 STR bonus makes this a superior TWF build. A rogue w/ two shortswords (kukris, whatever) might get more damage out of that combo, but I see no reason why a fighter w/ a decent STR score would pick any other method.
I'll put some basic builds together when I get home, I'm not convinced until I see some numbers.
The problem with TWFing on a strength build is that they don't have the dex to take two-weapon fighting (and especially not the improved/greater feats). If they do have the dex to do so, they dropped their strength which reduces the impact of that extra 0.5 * str (actually takes you backwards from the level 1 math I've done).
EDIT: To be clear I'm talking about TWFing on a THF+US/ArmorSpikes build versus just THF.
I might be placing too much emphasis on the greater STR bonus, but it seems like the the higher weapon damage and the extra .5 STR bonus makes this a superior TWF build. A rogue w/ two shortswords (kukris, whatever) might get more damage out of that combo, but I see no reason why a fighter w/ a decent STR score would pick any other method.
Because you have to take all your fighter feats twice if you want them to apply to both sets of attacks.
Again, if you're comparing this to other TWF, the problem is the differing weapons and/or the inability to use weapon finesse. If you're comparing it to other THF, the problem is that the resources spent on the off-hand attacks (which, again, don't get any of the bonuses associated with your 2H weapon or feats) are better spent focusing on your THF attacks by themselves.
It can be a fun build, especially with a reach weapon. But it's not going to be the optimized powerhouse you're thinking.
Just as a note, I don't see anywhere in the description of the thunderstriker archetype that allows the fighter to use a weapon in two hands, and also attack with a buckler in the same round.
You don't? Hmm what about this:
Hammer and Anvil (Ex)
At 13th level, a thunderstriker suffers only half the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting when using a buckler as his off-hand weapon.
If Thunderstriker worked in the way you described then this Archetype Ability would have no effect for a thunderstriker because they would never be Two Weapon Fighting with a Buckler.
In fact, this ability would only be useful if you wielded a Bastard Sword (and had Exotic Weapon Proficiency). However, this is a two-handed weapon archetype.
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Just as a note, I don't see anywhere in the description of the thunderstriker archetype that allows the fighter to use a weapon in two hands, and also attack with a buckler in the same round.You don't? Hmm what about this:
Hammer and Anvil (Ex)** spoiler omitted **
If Thunderstriker worked in the way you described then this Archetype Ability would have no effect for a thunderstriker because they would never be Two Weapon Fighting with a Buckler.
In fact, this ability would only be useful if you wielded a Bastard Sword (and had Exotic Weapon Proficiency). However, this is a two-handed weapon archetype.
He can easily use it with this:
Hardbuckler (Ex)
At 7th level, a thunderstriker may make shield bash attacks with a buckler as if it were a light shield.
This ability replaces armor training 2.
The Thunderstriker description show him as being a bastard sword or similar weapon user:
THUNDERSTRIKER (ARCHETYPE)
The thunderstriker adopts an unusual fighting style, gripping a heavy weapon with both hands and switching to a defensive posture with weapon and buckler, lashing out with the shield with surprising speed and power.
He must be 15th level to get some shield benefit and use a 2 handed weapon:
Buckler Defense (Ex): At 15th level, a thunderstriker retains partial use of his buckler even when using a weapon in both hands or in each hand (rather than losing his shield bonus until the beginning of his next turn). He gains a +1 shield bonus to AC and may apply the benefits
of any feats he knows that require the use of a shield, but does not benefit from any magical properties his shield may possess. This ability replaces armor training 4.
and at 19th level he get the full shield benefit when fighting with a 2 handed weapon.